iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

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true_bohra
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#121

Unread post by true_bohra » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:19 am

I would also like to clear some misconception more precisely.
- window is closed so that no men from outside can peek in but if things are fnie at your place then you may have that open for ventilation.
- fish and aquarium things are completely bizzare as zinger bhai said. There are other example like lizard and even mosquitos which are uncontrollable. So there is no restriction on that.
- why cant she read newspaper and magazines, just for the reason that it contains men's pictures, ladies usually have habit of doing salam to iddat lady and you know every note has a picture of Mahatma Gandhi.

THIS IS ALL LADIES TALK AND ONE SHOULD BE LOGICAL AND FOR ISSUES CONSULT CITY AAMIL SAHEB

zinger
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#122

Unread post by zinger » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:23 am

alam wrote:
zinger wrote:
Thanks True Bohra bhai, even i though that these rules were some major bullshit, but since i am not as well-versed as you are, i kept quiet that maybe i was unaware

Fish aqauriam was completely bizarre. i wonder where that came from
Not to belabor the issue : but I am aware of the following facts from personal experiences for women in iddat in my family and and close friends. You got to understand and keep in mind the context of "what you can or cannot do" varies so much from one Jamaat or community to another , from one set of families to another, from who is amil's bensaheb in what location at what time.
There is a lot of variation I have observed in "what you can and cannot do" - because a lot of it is arbitrary, and the experience and consensus among some people is that the more you ask about the details "of what you can or cannot do",the worse the restrictions get.!
Yes there are instances that I can easily vouch for:
No newspapers
No opening window for fresh air (even when privacy is not an issue)
Fish aquarium -
Cannot converse on telephone
Cannot hear a mehramdaar woman or man on phone
No photo of non-mehramdaar, husband, aqa maula - depends who you ask - varies.


There are a lot of variations in what people say yu can or cannot do. So my observation and conclusion has been that in he last 5-10 years, the "OFFICIAL" rules (which btw vary a lot- depending on who you ask) have got more restrictive, as a result most people (who are courageous and have immediate family support) do the bare minimum, or some just don't observe iddat anymore.

And my guess is that Dawat is aware of this and therefore the Birth of the Iddat House upon the death of the husband came into being.

It is likely to help a few folks with some viable options.

Nevertheless, the Iddat House is an example of dressing up an inordinately oppressive practice of iddat in the first place.

Hi Alam,

Completely agree with you that the rules of Iddat vary from city to city.

i think that the rules in Mumbai are slightly more flexible than say, Ahmedabad or Galiyakot or Jamnagar. I could be wrong, but im just basing this on a metro v/s town mentality

about the window being closed, if one is on the ground floor, its understandable, but im sure if one lives on a higher floor, it should be ok, unless there is a building outside the window that is close enough to make things uncomfortable because other people can look in. plus, given the fact that windows can be kept open, albiet with white curtains.

my aunt followed another custom too, where the mirror was covered. i asked her why and she said it was just to save the woman the pain of seeing herself as a widow (and the fact that she would not apply make-up ofcourse)

newspapers, photographs etc is something that i had heard about, but its not true anymore. women do watch tv and read magazines

about the phone too, from what i have heard, she can hear a man's voice but he may not hear hers

the thing is that i will not question the need or the validity of Iddat. there are enough discussions on here about that and honestly, i am torn between it... on one hand, it is a practice has been on for centuries and for generations, although yes, i will admit some rules may seem unduly harsh, but i would not like to question tradition. perhaps my kids might, but i think our generation will still accept things at face value

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#123

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:59 am

Solitary Confinement at best.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#124

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:23 pm

I can tell from my own personal experience what happens in Mumbai as I have seen my mother observing Iddat.

1) All mirrors are covered with newspapers.
2) Windows are mostly closed but they are opened only by a lady or some other mehramdars as the lady sits in a corner and if at all she opens it then there are chances of her seeing some male members in the next/opposite buildings.
3) She cannot even talk with any non-mehram.
4) The most stupid and laughable thing is that even a male infant cannot enter her room !!

zinger
Posts: 1971
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#125

Unread post by zinger » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:19 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:I can tell from my own personal experience what happens in Mumbai as I have seen my mother observing Iddat.

1) All mirrors are covered with newspapers.
2) Windows are mostly closed but they are opened only by a lady or some other mehramdars as the lady sits in a corner and if at all she opens it then there are chances of her seeing some male members in the next/opposite buildings.
3) She cannot even talk with any non-mehram.
4) The most stupid and laughable thing is that even a male infant cannot enter her room !!
GM bhai,

1 is correct. reason is what i have mentioned already
2. DITTO except that she can see them, but they may not see her. and obviously, the "seeing them" has to be inadvertent, just in case someone is looking to twist my words
3. non-merham is for men, women are ok
4. Yes, this is quite laughable i agree, but.... :roll:

wise_guy
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#126

Unread post by wise_guy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:05 pm

The scientific reason behind iddat is to give buffer period if the lady has conceived a child from her deceased husband... no person (other than blood relative) can see or meet her and hence no chance of any physical intimacy even if there is a slight possibility involved... its just that its become very strict.. god only knows why...

Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#127

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:44 pm

My personal experience: My chachi was in iddat. I called her on the phone (from another city) to find out how she was doing. She talked to me nicely, but at the end of the conversation she let me know that my calls are not welcome so long as she is in iddat.

Bohra spring
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#128

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:43 pm

Another ritual that is an exaggeration of Islamic tradition..just like FGM

The issue continues after it is proven beyond doubt this is a useless unIslamic practise, Bohra will continue because of the lack of self confidence in Islamic knowledge and dependence on the incompetent leadership , where unless A Diai decides they will not budge.

Unfortunately this is not an area authorities can intervene as it is voluntarily performed by a sane adult

humanbeing
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#129

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:27 am

Any one has an answer !

What are the regulations for Widowers ?

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#130

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:35 pm

There are none.

bohrabhai
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#131

Unread post by bohrabhai » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:06 am

A lady was about to come out of her Iddat peroid and it was her last day.As she was going towards the bathroom for her ghusl, a young boy passed her way. The concerned members went to ask Aqa Molla on what should be done.

Aqa Molla said that the boy who passed the lady’s way is to be questioned on what he saw. On questioning the young boy, he said he saw a woman dressed in full white clothes. To this reply Aqa Molla ordered the lady to re-sit the Iddat period all over again.

Q1.Why did he take such a decision?

Q2.Can this be Islamically justified with proof from the Holy Quran?

Q3.What about the lady who underwent this tragedy?Couldnt she have a say to this matter? Werent her feelings considered?

Q4.Do you think the decision taken was right according to Islam?

Q5.Can you please shade some more light on “Iddat”, what to do and not etc…etc

Khudahafiz

http://www.worldeve.com/bohra-repeating-iddah/

AmmarHussaini
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#132

Unread post by AmmarHussaini » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:53 am

bohrabhai wrote:A lady was about to come out of her Iddat peroid and it was her last day.As she was going towards the bathroom for her ghusl, a young boy passed her way. The concerned members went to ask Aqa Molla on what should be done.

Aqa Molla said that the boy who passed the lady’s way is to be questioned on what he saw. On questioning the young boy, he said he saw a woman dressed in full white clothes. To this reply Aqa Molla ordered the lady to re-sit the Iddat period all over again.

Q1.Why did he take such a decision?

Q2.Can this be Islamically justified with proof from the Holy Quran?

Q3.What about the lady who underwent this tragedy?Couldnt she have a say to this matter? Werent her feelings considered?

Q4.Do you think the decision taken was right according to Islam?

Q5.Can you please shade some more light on “Iddat”, what to do and not etc…etc

Khudahafiz

http://www.worldeve.com/bohra-repeating-iddah/
Al Baqarah 2:234 If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do. (Yusuf Ali)


Qur'an prohibits widows to engage themselves for four lunar months and ten days after the death of their husbands. Islamic scholars consider this directive to be a balance between mourning of husband's death and protecting the widow from criticism that she might be subjected to from remarrying too quickly after her husband’s death. This is also to ascertain whether a woman is pregnant or not, since four and a half months is half the length of a normal pregnancy.


iddat is prescribed in Quraan, and when it comes to Quran no muslim should ever question it. ( if really keeps Imaan on Quraan)

humanbeing
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#133

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:01 pm

Unfair judgement by aqa maula... lady had completed her term of iddat..

IMO as per quran too.. she is not to be blamed....

A counter question.. which aqa moula gave this judgement...? SMB or SMS ?

abde53
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#134

Unread post by abde53 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:16 pm

There are many Mumin bheno now what do they think about Bohra iddat and also about this story if true...

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#135

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:52 pm

A lady was about to come out of her Iddat peroid and it was her last day.As she was going towards the bathroom for her ghusl, a young boy passed her way. The concerned members went to ask Aqa Molla on what should be done.
Who are these concerned members? Were they there when this young boy passed her? Do they know that a woman cannot get pregnant through ESP? Are these concerned members also dumb?

saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#136

Unread post by saminaben » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:33 am

Gone are the days when a brand new widow facing the loss of her husband should allow anyone on her behalf, no matter how "concerned" they claim to be, to interpret Allah's command in the Quran.

Gone are the days when we had unquestioned faith in the concept of the "bolta Quran", and run to Maula for confirmation of the "concerned family member" to exert their own will and control over someone who is in grief over losing her husband.

Gone are the days where the new widow should feel compelled to follow any ritual other than what her own moral and ethical standards require. The woman ALONE must decide what, where, how, and when her iddat would take place. Who is anyone to judge? Allah will judge, and let no woman fear anyone else. Only Allah knows her predicament and her conscience best. And we know Allah is Just And forgiving, far more than so-called "concerned" family and friends may be.

abde53
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#137

Unread post by abde53 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:50 am

Mumineen Bhayo and Bheno
my question to Mumineen Bhai in america and england is would you allow your mother or wife to go through this rasm
to my sisters who are working and supporting families anywhere in the world would you go thru the iddat as per bohra or think about your children and other family members who may depend on your income and help r husban ( May Allaha grant long and healthy life to your husbands and fathers as my direct question is very rude question)

fustrate_Bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#138

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:23 am

I personally feel Iddat for women is too harsh as i had personally experienced what my mom had gone through and what difficulties she faced in her daily activities, at that time i was 22. It made me feel like she had committed a sin by losing my dad. Still i cannot forget the way she use to hide herself, the way she speak/whisper with me and above all how our room was covered with white curtains,

Experiencing my mom plight i had told my wife in front of my mom and few other family members (as witness) not to perform iddat.

We need somebody like Raja Ram Mohan Roy the one who ended SATI.

AmmarHussaini
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#139

Unread post by AmmarHussaini » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:47 am

this is the problem with padhe likhe idiots specially those who comes from shiit holes like US and UK, after reading 2-3 modern books they think they know enough to compete with book of ALLAH and change open farmaan of Quraan, some times I feel these modern idiots deserves to be treated the way muffy treats them, its better to keep them jhahil and roti and baby making machines instead of educating them, because education makes more stupid.

any ways I think what ever is going on is correct and muffy has his own points to treat people like savages (most deserves to be treated like that)

Dua and love for all.

FiAmanillah.

saminaben
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#140

Unread post by saminaben » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:52 am

abde53 wrote:Mumineen Bhayo and Bheno
my question to Mumineen Bhai in america and england is would you allow your mother or wife to go through this rasm
Bhai abde53 -Your intent seems noble, but your words still seem patronising. Also, why restrict the question to those westerners - the women in India don't deserve a voice?

Rephrase question to Request: to "My humble request to all Mumineen bhaios residing anywhere on planet Earth : would you not stand by, in solidarity your mother, sister, daughters and woman friends in supporting them to stand up and resist the system of iddat as dictated and interpreted by Others."

abde53
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#141

Unread post by abde53 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:14 pm

Samina ben
in america and london, you have more freedom and you can stand up to aamil but in India and Pakistan we do not have that. My Saasu was asked to sit in Iddat in Mumbai at the age of 79 even when she was suffering from forgetfullness and she died while in Iddat. I heard a story from Florida Jamaat where a woman was given permission not to sit in Iddat because she was the only bread earner after her husband's death but they asked to he do iddat when her children grew up and she was forced to sit in iddat 6 years after her husband's death. (we used to have AFJ bhen from Florida jamaat who can verify the story)
that is why I asked if our sisters and brothers in America and London can stand up and what is the position of SKQ saheb on this issue

morela
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#142

Unread post by morela » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:23 pm

The face of the wommen is part of awrah and hence irrespective of iddat , her face should not be exposed to gair mahram.

In Ahlus Sunnah there are no such idiotic customs only that the women are advised to remain in home and can go out even while in iddat for essentials.

The basic reason for iddat was to determine whether pregnancy occured ,so that after the Iddat period the prospective husband take a call on whether he would accept a pregnant wife. 4 months is enough to expose a pregnancy

disillusioned
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#143

Unread post by disillusioned » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:19 pm

morela wrote: The basic reason for iddat was to determine whether pregnancy occured ,so that after the Iddat period the prospective husband take a call on whether he would accept a pregnant wife. 4 months is enough to expose a pregnancy
Or a pregnancy test

MMH
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#144

Unread post by MMH » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:33 pm

disillusioned wrote:
morela wrote: The basic reason for iddat was to determine whether pregnancy occured ,so that after the Iddat period the prospective husband take a call on whether he would accept a pregnant wife. 4 months is enough to expose a pregnancy
Or a pregnancy test

I have suggested the logic of pregnancy tests on the subject of iddat and was told that by someone who attends sabaq that 'it the haqq of the husband' which in no condition should be denied to him when he departs from this world!!!!

disillusioned
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#145

Unread post by disillusioned » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:57 pm

MMH wrote:
disillusioned wrote: Or a pregnancy test

I have suggested the logic of pregnancy tests on the subject of iddat and was told that by someone who attends sabaq that 'it the haqq of the husband' which in no condition should be denied to him when he departs from this world!!!!
Yea I'm aware of that.. And at that point, what more can a rational person say but (quoting a former user on this forum): "LOL"

ghulam muhammed
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#146

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:03 pm

morela wrote:The basic reason for iddat was to determine whether pregnancy occured ,so that after the Iddat period the prospective husband take a call on whether he would accept a pregnant wife.
This is a valid point to the extent that the widow is a young lady but what about old women who are subjected to this ritual even at the age of 80 and 85 ? How ridiculous this argument sounds when everyone knows that there is no chance of her getting pregnant at this age.

seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#147

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:57 pm

It ends with "until death do us part".

kimanumanu
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#148

Unread post by kimanumanu » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:44 pm

disillusioned wrote: Or a pregnancy test
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/2308.aspx?categoryid=54

seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#149

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:46 pm

There is a pill that can take care of all the tests, its called the day R U 386.

morela
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#150

Unread post by morela » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:49 pm

Bro gm in Islam iddat is no big deal unlike bohras and there is nothing like iddat breaking when a non mahrah happens to see you, so we should not compare the crazy iddat of bohras with the authentic iddat.


Lol My mom says that my wife is always in iddat due to she being strict niqab keeper which even bewilders me and the fact that no gair mahram has seen her purposely.