iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

[Bohra spring]

Really amazes me how we prioritise what is important...so rather than questioning this exaggerated unislamic practise and using funds for helping a widow be self sufficient after loosing her supporting partner. We rather focus on creating a prison for her...next we will ask them to make rotis while they are in idat

At least thanks to whoever posts these issues here to confirm how retarded our leadership is

[hsnhussain]

Really amazes me how we prioritise what is important...so rather than questioning this exaggerated unislamic practise and using funds for helping a widow be self sufficient after loosing her supporting partner. We rather focus on creating a prison for her...next we will ask them to make rotis while they are in idat

At least thanks to whoever posts these issues here to confirm how retarded our leadership is

BS,
Really, i mean, is it necessary for you to always critisize and tag everything unislamic and unimportant.
This iddat house, in my view, is a very nice idea.
Being among women who have suffered a similar loss is the best thing a widow can have.
Her pain will heal much faster when she is among people who can understand her suffering.

[incredible]

Really amazes me how we prioritise what is important...so rather than questioning this exaggerated unislamic practise and using funds for helping a widow be self sufficient after loosing her supporting partner. We rather focus on creating a prison for her...next we will ask them to make rotis while they are in idat

At least thanks to whoever posts these issues here to confirm how retarded our leadership is

BS,
Really, i mean, is it necessary for you to always critisize and tag everything unislamic and unimportant.
This iddat house, in my view, is a very nice idea.
Being among women who have suffered a similar loss is the best thing a widow can have.
Her pain will heal much faster when she is among people who can understand her suffering.

but unfortunately it will be so expensive that only rich will be able to afford this.

poor woman dont feel pain?

you are not even undertanding what is going on, bohra cult is becoming more and more for those who can afford it and pay for it, and poor are shamelessly asked on face to leave and look for some thing else.

this is kind of club which is heaven for rich who can pay, and those who cant pay should just leave and find some thing else.

this is not DAWAT of Imammain any more.

[hsnhussain]

"but unfortunately it will be so expensive that only rich will be able to afford this.
poor woman dont feel pain?"

Poor or rich, young or old, everyone feels same level of pain to lose a loved one.
Maybe it will be very expensive, maybe only the rich could afford it, maybe the poor will be asked shamelessly to look for something else. At that time I will join my voice with you against the wrong doing.
But at the same time, maybe it will be very much affordable, maybe it will benifit the women in the way i mentioned above. Only time will tell the truth. Untill then try to appreciate the step taken keeping in mind the benifit for a pained soul. Sometimes, my friend, you have to "Agree to Disagree"

[محمد]

"but unfortunately it will be so expensive that only rich will be able to afford this.
poor woman dont feel pain?"

Poor or rich, young or old, everyone feels same level of pain to lose a loved one.
Maybe it will be very expensive, maybe only the rich could afford it, maybe the poor will be asked shamelessly to look for something else. At that time I will join my voice with you against the wrong doing.
But at the same time, maybe it will be very much affordable, maybe it will benifit the women in the way i mentioned above. Only time will tell the truth. Untill then try to appreciate the step taken keeping in mind the benifit for a pained soul. Sometimes, my friend, you have to "Agree to Disagree"

till now not a single institute is working for poor bohras, and looking at luxurious rooms it is obvious it will cost in thousands to rent it for days and months, specially when it is in heart if MUMBAI.

[asad]

I think the house is supposed to be free for woman who cant afford to observe Iddat as per Bohra rules

[humanbeing]

This is an excellent idea ! in honest opinion. I truly respect and encourage freedom for women. I personally don’t like the idea of Iddat. But under the given restrictions of religions or culture. I feel this iddat house can be implemented for bigger and better good for widows.


HSNH has expressed a valid point. And If women are asked to help in cooking and other activities, there is no harm, it good for them to be busy. There are many advantages of this initiative.


Also if jamaat can add a training of some sort to prepare them for a world outside independently after Iddat. I don’t really see it as imprisonement. Its temporary and voluntary under religious beliefs amongst bohra women !


I think, many cities can have this kind of Iddat House, it is a sustainable project.

Appreciate efforts of Kothar !

[true_bohra]

@hsnhusain

the views expressed by you is worth applauding. This is a nice idea and a very good initiative so that women who does not have anyone to comfort in this hard time of her life can atleast live within a company and this would ease her pain of loosing her husband.

Guys it would be highly appreciated if you look at this like real progressives and do not bring it on scale of cost and money. Correct me if I am wrong but this facility is started under amatullah aai trust which is also actively associated with providing monetary aid for Imam Husain AS ziarat to people who could not afford that.

[Humsafar]

Iddat is practiced by Bohras in an extreme way, as if the whole exercise is designed to punish the widow. After losing one's husband, the woman needs space and time to grieve and come to terms with the new reality. But our "society" insensitive to her needs immediately gets into high gear to put her in the iddat strait-jacket as soon as possible. Instead of easing the unnecessary and cruel restrictions surrounding Idaat, the community is now literally institutionalising the practice in brick and mortar. No doubt, on the face of it some women who need it and can afford it may find comfort and solace in such an institution, but overall I think this is a step back for Bohra women. This "official" iddat institution will now embody a structured oppression that will be become the norm, applied to all widows whether they attend the Iddat House or not.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but to me this is another concrete sign that the community is regressing.

[badrijanab]

Iddat is practiced by Bohras in an extreme way, as if the whole exercise is designed to punish the widow. After losing one's husband, the woman needs space and time to grieve and come to terms with the new reality. But our "society" insensitive to her needs immediately gets into high gear to put her in the iddat strait-jacket as soon as possible. Instead of easing the unnecessary and cruel restrictions surrounding Idaat, the community is now literally institutionalising the practice in brick and mortar. No doubt, on the face of it some women who need it and can afford it may find comfort and solace in such an institution, but overall I think this is a step back for Bohra women. This "official" iddat institution will now embody a structured oppression that will be become the norm, applied to all widows whether they attend the Iddat House or not.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but to me this is another concrete sign that the community is regressing.

@ Humsafar

Above is your personal opinion or official stand of Reformist?

Bohra maslaq new widows observe Iddat per dictate of Quran and Daimul Islam (volume 2nd). This book is our official guide to our maslaq dogmas. If you do not agree to this book dictates (which is vouched by Imam Molana Moiz a.s.) then de-facto you are not Bohra to begin with. If you like to be Bohra mumin then you have to agree in words and in spirit with the dogmas dictated by Daimul Islam (vouched by Imam Moiz a.s.) or else de-facto you are not Bohra mumin. If you are not Bohra mumin then you do not have any business with Bohra practices.

Women suffers (in Humsafar terms, women is "punished") with many hardships ("punishment") during their Monthly Cycles, pain of "punishment" while carrying baby for NINE MONTHS, "punishment" suffered while delivering baby, etc - can you or alike negate this pain, "punishment" and suffering of women?????

By the token of your post one should not observe fasting in Ramdan or other days because it is akin to "punishment" to suffer with starvation, not eating and drinking. Or should not go for Haj as their is too much pain akin to "punishment" in the journey and performing Haj rituals.

Quran is ordering observe Iddat and Daimul Islam via Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. and Ameer al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. is commanding to observe Iddat then the true Islam i.e. Bohra Maslaq will surely obey and abide.

You can validly argue that un-Islamic innovations which are not in line with the Fatimi Dawat dogmas have weeded up in actual practices they should be plucked and rooted out. Now where to learn what are permitted and prohibited acts during Iddat? "Chronicle", the periodical published by the Reformist has published in-depth article on it from the pen of Allahma Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj sahib. You can get this edition from Bhai Saifuddin Insaf. This article was also referred by Udaipur Jamat board member Late Saleh Mohammed Naib sahib in his letter, which is reproduced in book, "Wafat ki iddat aur sogwari char mahina aur dus raat".

Firstly, have first love & loyalty for your Bohra maslaq, if you consider yourself as Bohra mumin. If you do not understand any issue then ask and inquire instead of outrightly spitting venom on Bohras.

[anajmi]

I don't think Humsafar is questioning iddat itself. The question is about how it is being implemented. And badrijanab's post does not answer that question. Does the Quran or Daimul Islam identify how it is to be implemented? Is there a precedence from the life of the prophet (saw)? He left behind widows, how did they observe iddat?

[Humsafar]

I was expecting badrijanab to come down like a ton of bricks - and to, of course, stretch my comments ridiculously to other aspects of beliefs. In his enthusiasm to condemn me he failed to notice that I was not objecting to Iddat as such but to the extreme and inhuman practices that Bohra widows are subjected to. If iddat must be observed it should be done with minimum of hardship.

But coming to the letter and "spirit" of the text badrijanab talks about, what he actually means is that we just stick to the letter. He has no idea what the "spirit" of any text is. And least of all the spirit and logic behind iddat. The logic of iddat is to make sure that the woman is not pregnant by the deceased, the waiting period prescribed by the Quran is just to determine that. This is primary reason for iddat.

But let me take it a step further with the "spirit" of this prescription. The waiting period makes no sense for menopausal women. And even so with modern techniques, it takes a few minutes to carry out a pregnancy test. This way the work of Iddat is cut short to just minutes.

As for harsh conditions under which the Borha widow suffer, it might be relevant to state that during Rasulullah's time women in iddat used to go out in the market and conduct their business so long as they avoided non-mehram men.

People like badrijanb who are quick to impose strictures on women are ironically the ones who will never have to observe iddat. It is easy for them to pontificate. Unfortunately all mullahs are male, and that is why Islam in practice is so male-dominated and patriarchal. In this regard the likes of badrijanab and the orthodox Kothar are no different, they make for cosy and perfect bedfellows.

Disclaimer: These are my personal views and do not reflect the official stand of reformists on this issue.

[ghulam muhammed]

Is there a precedence from the life of the prophet (saw)? He left behind widows, how did they observe iddat?

This is a valid question which needs to be answered by the likes of badrijanab and other 'Lakeer ke Fakirs' !!

[alam]

Iddat House
Luxury or not, improving the prison conditions, providing a sense of community to widows, providing an alternative to solitary confinement. . . all this will gain significant Brownie Points for KOthar and the Establishment.
It will add another opportunity for people to say "Jo maula badddhi cheeez maa tamaru khayal kare chey."

A prison by any other name . . Stinks the same.

The reality is that there is a lot of concern among the Bohra community that a lot of widows are now choosing to either not sit in Iddat at all (I know of several) or that they do so in such a modified manner ( due to to the oppressive restrictions), that this iddat too is becoming institunalized as Humsafar put it.

Easy for some to accuse the criticism of iddat as going against Quran, or Islam or bohra maslak.

The way it is practiced and implemented today is BArbaric, just Like a lot of other things in our community.

These programs (FMB, Iddat house and so on) have the Illusion to sway the masses of its benefits, sugar coating them and coining it as "maula nu ehsaan". These so called do-gooders ought to stop and think before diving into yet another "program" or "prison system" they build.

[badrijanab]

The logic of iddat is to make sure that the woman is not pregnant by the deceased, the waiting period prescribed by the Quran is just to determine that. This is primary reason for iddat.

But let me take it a step further with the "spirit" of this prescription. The waiting period makes no sense for menopausal women. And even so with modern techniques, it takes a few minutes to carry out a pregnancy test. This way the work of Iddat is cut short to just minutes.

Your first para above refers - Qualify what you wrote from authentic Fatimi Dawat books/risala's?

First, you don't know and nor understand why Iddat is observed and on top of it you spit your corrupted misguided anti-Bohra hatred as reason for Bohra mumina observing Iddat!!!

I told you if you don't know or understand then ask and inquire - this appeal don't appeals you because you are filled with not love but HATE for Bohras.

Your 2nd paragraph above refers - It is proof that you don't believe in the Iddat course prescribed by Quran and Daimul Islam (volume 2).

Because of viruses like you who though disguise under sheep skin but in reality hate Bohra maslaq - mumin have left Progressive fold and joined back parasite Kothar. You and alike have hollowed progressive cause. Humsafar and alike are worst than traitor.

[anajmi]

I told you if you don't know or understand then ask and inquire

And still badrijanab fails to answer the question at the root of this discussion. What is the form of Iddat suggested by the Quran and Daimul Islam? Since badrijanab doesn't know, let me tell you. The Quran asks women to observe iddat for a certain period of time. This is the waiting period within which the woman cannot re-marry. That is it. That is all the Quran says. It doesn't say that a woman needs to be confined in the house, shouldn't be visited by non-mahram males (which applies whether in iddah or not).

The reason that bohras confine their women to this jail during the waiting period is because they shamefully assume that a widowed woman cannot wait to get laid. If this is what Daimul Islam is teaching then it is teaching zulm against women. So the question then arises, if they do not trust their widowed women who are in mourning, why do they trust un-married women? Shouldn't they be under house arrest too? Or is it because since a widow has tasted it, she is even more untrustworthy?

The practice of iddah as observed by the bohras and advocated by badri throws a dark shadow on the character of men and women in their communities. A widowed woman is untrustworthy and men are untrustworthy with widowed women. Shame!!

[Bohra spring]

Anajmi is right but he should have added why we perform iddat

It is to do to identify whose child it is if the woman remarries. Islam was considerate that the orphan retains a certain identity and inheritance rights. It does not mean isolation but don't marry

Bohras have taken extreme measures hence it does not become Islamic mandated

BJ our maslaq whatever it means is supposed to be
Islam
Grief management is secondary purpose.

Can a muslimAh widow who can rationally comment whether if she had a choice how she would like her grief be psychologically managed

I had a grand mother and mother who hated 110 days of dead isolation but just complied some go to. Tragcally no tv, phone calls, buy essentials from gher mehrum

Every woman had an opinion some said she cannot even look good or use a mirror use currency as there was a male portrait

I suggested they get the maula photos down if she was that serious

[anajmi]

It is to do to identify whose child it is if the woman remarries. Islam was considerate that the orphan retains a certain identity and inheritance rights. It does not mean isolation but don't marry

Is this reason mentioned in the Quran? No. It is not. Besides, the reason doesn't really matter. It is not like the woman is waiting to get impregnated the moment the husband passes and so we have to make sure she doesn't. And besides, now it is a matter of minutes and hours to thoroughly determine if a woman is pregnant or not. So the pregnancy excuse is no longer a valid reason.

The reason a woman has to wait is because Allah has ordained for her to wait. Plain and simple. People search for excuses to explain things that they cannot normally explain. Leave it on the hikmah of Allah. A few decades ago, woman had a reason to wait. Now they wait just for the love of Allah and his command. The women of today get more sawaab for observing iddah. But the kotharis and the badris are the bane of society.

[Bohra spring]

Anajmi that is the difference between our ideologies

I like appreciating the Islam as a rational and functional religion

Quran and Hadith are practical rituals that have been perfected over time since the earlier prophets

You very we'll know a lot of rituals were modified in the prophets SAW lifetime

[anajmi]

I like appreciating the Islam as a rational and functional religion

So according to you, doing something purely for the sake of Allah is being irrational?

A rational and functional religion that makes people wait for more than 4 months for something that can be determined in under 4 hours? Your definition of what is rational is not very rational. Trying to rationalize aspects of faith is where the entire problem lies. It suggests that your faith is not strong enough. I asked you a simple question. Does the Quran give a reason for the 4 month iddah period? I gave you the answer as well. It does not. Does the Prophet (saw) anywhere in his sunnah mention the reason for iddah? He does not. Are you suggesting that you are more rational than he was in matters of Islam?

The fact that the reason is not mentioned is because Allah knows the past, the present and the future. He knows that if pregnancy is given as a reason, it will become irrelevant in the 21st century. Hence he gave a command and chose not to give a reason. I would say, that is what is perfectly rational.

[محمد]

Nothing more and nothing less, this is what QURAAN talks about iddah, period

In Islam, iddah or iddat (Arabic: العدة‎; period of waiting) is the period a woman must observe after the death of her spouse or after a divorce, during which she may not marry another man.[1] A woman who is divorced before consummation does not have any ‘iddah. But a woman whose husband has died must observe iddah whether the marriage had been consummated or not.[2][3] The period, four months and ten days after the death of a spouse, is calculated on the number of menses that a woman has. Iddah was intended to ensure that the male parent of any offspring produced after the cessation of a nikah would be known.
Qur'an prohibits widows to engage themselves for four lunar months and ten days after the death of their husbands.[4] Islamic scholars consider this directive to be a balance between mourning of husband's death and protecting the widow from criticism that she might be subjected to from re-marrying too quickly after her husband’s death.[5] This is also to ascertain whether a woman is pregnant or not, since four and a half months is half the length of a normal pregnancy.[6]
Husbands should make a will in favor of their wives for the provision of one year’s residence and maintenance, unless the wives themselves leave the house or take any other similar step.[7]

[seeker110]

What if we use science for all the good about iddat. To make certain the dead man did not leave something in the oven, some simple tests would ensure the widow ( if she is child bearing age) is carrying the package. It can benefit all concerned in the matter of hours.

[Bohra spring]

Muslim jurists and thinkers have generally construed this additional purpose entailed in the prescription of the waiting period for widows to be that of the widow's 'mourning' her deceased husband. The prescription of a specified 'waiting' or 'mourning' period is for the purpose of safeguarding the woman against defamation, slander and ill-repute in society.
It is specifically for this purpose that others are directed against making a 'secret' commitment of marriage with the widow or deciding about the time and place of the marriage-contract, during the prescribed period. It is reported that Muhammad advised widows to be extra modest in their appearance and to even refrain from wearing any fragrance, during this period. All these directives and advice seem to point to the fact that a woman should not only be but also appear to be in a state of mourning so that her social circles do not get a chance to say a negative word about her.


Whoever from amongst you dies and leaves behind wives, the wives will hold themselves [from marriage] for four months and ten days. Then, when they have expired this period, there is no blame upon you in whatever they do regarding themselves, according to the recognized traditions. And God is fully aware of whatever you are doing. And there is no blame upon you in proposing [marriage] to these women or in keeping such proposal to yourself - God is aware that you would mention it to them - but do not make with them any secret commitments, except that you say a noble word to them. However, do not commit the marriage-contract with them, until the law has reached its prescribed time... (Al-Baqarah 2: 234 - 235)

Anjami IIf you as one of different school of thought believes explanation is unacceptable too bad , ..and you want to accept all ruling regardless that's your choice

How do you recommend someone if they were to ask you is to perform iddat if your are relying on the Quran only...can you be forthcoming

We will know on the day of judgement who is wrong or right? Ma

As you only rely on the Quran for your daily events What does Quran say about the use of the internet , do you know use it because if it is not mentioned ?

[true_bohra]

Iddat House
Luxury or not, improving the prison conditions, providing a sense of community to widows, providing an alternative to solitary confinement. . . all this will gain significant Brownie Points for KOthar and the Establishment.
It will add another opportunity for people to say "Jo maula badddhi cheeez maa tamaru khayal kare chey."

A prison by any other name . . Stinks the same.

This is gross. If Kothar does something then you say its all about gaining points and if it does not, then you say they do not do anything for people. Why do you guys change colours.

And Iddat is not at all barbaric. Islam has just asked that in Iddat no man can see the widow or hear a voice. Shariat e Mohammadiyah is so flexible that it has considered all the facts and has allowed women to perform her daily routine works. She can even see men and hear their voice.

Tell me guys Qur'an and shariat is more important or human rights. if its mentioned in Qur'an then there must be a reason for it. Why to put human interpretations to it and drawing inferences.

[KM1]

Has the reformist group made any efforts or thought of making any provision for any needy lady or planning to help anyone to doesn't have any support


PLS don't keep on criticizing each and everything without understanding the cause and people who are benefiting.


Today when things are happening for good and benefit of the community we still keep on nagging and criticizing

I am asking everyone on this forum today what do we want and why are we all here.

Just for bashing and criticizing even for good deeds and good act.

[true_bohra]

@KM1

search down this forum and you wont find any thread where there is something written about appreciation. If something is written for appreciating kothar then others will come and again put their nasty comments.

Fresh example can be taken for Karachi University Medical hall or something like that where Syedna TUS provided funds.

[humanbeing]

Fresh example can be taken for Karachi University Medical hall or something like that where Syedna TUS provided funds.

Sayedna TUS provided funds ?? from where !! was it his funds ? or from community funds ?

[Humsafar]

Your first para above refers - Qualify what you wrote from authentic Fatimi Dawat books/risala's?

First, you don't know and nor understand why Iddat is observed and on top of it you spit your corrupted misguided anti-Bohra hatred as reason for Bohra mumina observing Iddat!!!

If I don't understand, please make me understand why Iddat is observed.

[anajmi]

How do you recommend someone if they were to ask you is to perform iddat if your are relying on the Quran only...can you be forthcoming

Iddat doesn't have to mean "perform something". Iddat is just a waiting period. You don't have to "perform" anything during that waiting period. You have to wait till the end of this waiting period to perform a marriage. A woman has to wait for 4 months and 10 days before getting married again. Simple.

[anajmi]

As you only rely on the Quran for your daily events What does Quran say about the use of the internet , do you know use it because if it is not mentioned ?

Well, the Quran says that it is for people of understanding. If you are amongst the people of understanding, then you can probably figure some things out for yourself. Did the Quran say that the waiting period is for pregnancy? If it did, wouldn't it have been illogical because pregnancy can be determined these days in minutes?

These are things that men of understanding need to ponder over.