iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

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zinger
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#151

Unread post by zinger » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:27 pm

i dont think there is any right or wrong answer for this.

while the conditions of iddat may seem harsh, there must be some reason for it being stipulated in the Quran.

One can argue that the Quran was ok for conditions 1400 years ago and they should change now, but i dont think that there is any strong argument that one can give why conditions set in the Quran 1400 years ago should change now

if one wants to question the Quran and say that what is written in it does not hold true anymore, and do things their way, then, so be it, let them.

i personally, feel it is a little extreme, but this is something that is written in the Quran and has been practiced for generations to come.
the current generation, i.e. us, people in our 30s and over may accept it, but who knows, our children may choose not to

i know of an incident in the family where the husband forbade his wife from sitting in Iddat because of the harshness, but she still chose to do, it partly out of what society will say, partly of what her inlaws would say and partly because the Quran asked of it



SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#152

Unread post by SBM » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:38 pm

^
Br Zinger
Where does in Quran it says about woman sitting inside the house in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT
Please do not mix Quranic teaching with Bohra teaching. one is simple order from Allaha and the other is deviant teaching of the mood of the Dai



zinger
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#153

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:31 am

SBM wrote:^
Br Zinger
Where does in Quran it says about woman sitting inside the house in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT
Please do not mix Quranic teaching with Bohra teaching. one is simple order from Allaha and the other is deviant teaching of the mood of the Dai

Wish it was easy as a "deviant teaching of the Dai, because then, the "enlightened Reformists Bohras" and the "newly awakened Dawoodi Bohras" could have done away with it. :roll: Although i do believe that the Reformists also follow it.

Nonetheless -

In Islam, iddah or iddat (Arabic: العدة‎; period of waiting) is the period a woman must observe after the death of her spouse or after a divorce, during which she may not marry another man.[1] A woman who is divorced before consummation does not have any ‘iddah. But a woman whose husband has died must observe iddah whether the marriage had been consummated or not.[2][3] The period, four months and ten days after the death of a spouse, is calculated on the number of menses that a woman has. Iddah was intended to ensure that the male parent of any offspring produced after the cessation of a nikah would be known.

Qur'an prohibits widows to engage themselves for four lunar months and ten days after the death of their husbands.[4] Islamic scholars consider this directive to be a balance between mourning of husband's death and protecting the widow from criticism that she might be subjected to from remarrying too quickly after her husband’s death.[5] This is also to ascertain whether a woman is pregnant or not, since four and a half months is half the length of a normal pregnancy.[6]
he Qur'anic verse relating to the period of iddah is:

Al Baqarah 2:234 If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do. (Yusuf Ali)
The directive of the Qur'an regarding the waiting period of a widow, is as under.

Whoever from amongst you dies and leaves behind wives, the wives will hold themselves [from marriage] for four months and ten days. Then, when they have expired this period, there is no blame upon you in whatever they do regarding themselves, according to the recognized traditions. And God is fully aware of whatever you are doing. And there is no blame upon you in proposing [marriage] to these women or in keeping such proposal to yourself - God is aware that you would mention it to them - but do not make with them any secret commitments, except that you say a noble word to them. However, do not commit the marriage-contract with them, until the law has reached its prescribed time... (Al-Baqarah 2: 234 - 235)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddah


ALTERNATIVELY


Given that the two waiting periods dealing with divorce (3 months / 3 cycles) and spousal death (4 months and 10 days - Verse 2:234) are different, this clearly implies that the wait is simply not a function of what may be apparent in the wombs of women. Rather, this must have a wider reasoning.

Given today's modern technology, and even with women who biologically have regular menstrual cycles, the status of a possible pregnancy can easily be determined. Hence the waiting periods would also have aspects of reconciliation, cooling off, stabilising and a mourning period as opposed to it simply being a determining factor of what may be present in the wombs of potential mothers.

The Quran, in fact, does not even make use of the term 'iddat' when describing the waiting period of four months and ten days in verse 2:234 for widows. The term used is 'tarabbasna' which is best rendered as ' a general waiting'
http://quransmessage.com/articles/iddat%20FM3.htm


OR EVEN

‘Iddah’ (pronounced as ‘Iddat’ by Urdu linguists) literally means to keep a count. In Islamic terminology, it is known as ‘the waiting period’ i.e. the period a woman should wait before she can re-marry.
A. ‘Iddah’ for a woman whose husband dies
“And those of you who die and leave wives behind them, they (the wives) shall wait for four months & ten days, then when they have fulfilled their term, there is no sin on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and honourable manner. And Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.”
(Aayah No. 234, Surah Al-Baqarah, Chapter No. 2, Holy Qur’an).
Therefore, a woman whose husband dies should observe ‘Iddah’ for a period of four months and ten days. This is required to be followed even by those women who become widow even before their marriage could be consummated i.e. a case where the husband dies without having made a sexual relation with his wife.
http://www.quranandhadith.com/iddah/


You see, normally i dont make references to Quran because i dont think i am learned enough or educated enough in Quran to be able to quote it, but this time, the proof is in front of your eyes i.e. Ammar Hussainis post



zinger
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#154

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:35 am

@ SBM bhai,

One more thing. i dont know where you bought "SOLITARY CONFINEMENT" from. I certainly have not spoken about it in my post :?: :?: :?: :?:



New
Posts: 440
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#155

Unread post by New » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:28 am

There is a way out of Iddat, just get a religeous divorce and continue with your life as if nothing happened. You are still legally married as you have not filed court papers. However, you are living in sin with your boy or girl friend (oh big deal).

There are many many things any religion and their leaders could not have predicted at that time. For example, the evolutionary tree and the common origin of all the organisms, from viruses to the elephant and the blue whale. Please, enlighten me where is that reference?

Where is the periodic table consisting of just 110+ elements, the DNA made of just four bases? Just 20 amino acids making complex living structures. These are the fundamentals to every thing living or nonliving, on the earth and beyond.

The preganancy test can detect the the egg implantation just after two days. The paternity can be established via the DNA test.

By the way iddat guzar can see mehram marado. There are many many instances known of sex between relatives and having children.

Why some one has to where why clothes? Black signifies the sorrow, so why not black colors.

Here is a can of worms. You may want to ignore all that. That is all logic by a Ph.D. Scientist. "Dakaktaro to soon samje" Go ahead and lock up your ladies. This is comparable to modern day "Sati". We practice "FGM" so one more thing in the old age.

Samjo to Samjo na Samjo to na Samjo



zinger
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#156

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:57 am

Bro, i seriously dont understand the point that you are making...

i mean, whats a religious divorce? never heard of that one before. u wanna live in sin? by all means, go right ahead.

and what references to the evolutionary tree and common origins are you referring to?

what does the periodic table and DNA have to do in the question?

offcourse ladies in iddat can see menfolks who are merhamdaar to her. her son, brother, cousins, uncles, father, grandfather, son-in-law (i think there is a rule about her jamai having born a child with her daughter here, although i could be wrong). then you talk about sex between relatives. again, what is the point you want to make?

why where why (i think you mean why wear white) clothes and not black? hell if i know that one :lol:

what can of worms? what logic by what PHd scientist? "Dakaktaro to soon samje"??? what does this mean?

Samjo to Samjo na Samjo to na Samjo.... ya... main kai nathi samjho if you are coming or going??? what are you shooting into your veins bro?

is there any other member who understands what new is trying to say? please translate



New
Posts: 440
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#157

Unread post by New » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:07 pm

Yes, I packed it too tightly in a nut shell, with some typos. I am 1000 percent against iddat. In the US one has to file for divorce in the court. One take farkati and not take legal divorce. Thus, the widow does not have to follow iddat. The life style and property rights are not disturbed.

The religious books are all based on ancient acknowledge. What I want to say is that why follow any book which has no mention of very basic concepts, like the periodic table, the genetic code and the origin of life. How could that book teach about Iddat and other things for this century?

Why not ban all the men, as incest can happen. There are plenty of examples of this. Just lock the widow up wher no one can see her. This is the logic of a Ph.D. Scientist, i.e., me (who are called doctors also). This is para phrasing Muffy who atacked Drs. When talking about nuss.

Thanks for asking which, helped me explain my words.



SBM
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#158

Unread post by SBM » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:32 pm

^
New
Your post is very confusing. care to explain in simple 8th grade English. i am only 8th grader so I can not comprehend Ph.D. thesis.



New
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#159

Unread post by New » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:42 pm

SBM bhai, I did explain. I can try further if need be. The gist is that do not follow ancient books with regards to Iddat and everything else.

Let us have men sit in Iddat.



truth seeker100
Posts: 165
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#160

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:50 am

New wrote:Yes, I packed it too tightly in a nut shell, with some typos. I am 1000 percent against iddat. In the US one has to file for divorce in the court. One take farkati and not take legal divorce. Thus, the widow does not have to follow iddat. The life style and property rights are not disturbed.

The religious books are all based on ancient acknowledge. What I want to say is that why follow any book which has no mention of very basic concepts, like the periodic table, the genetic code and the origin of life. How could that book teach about Iddat and other things for this century?

Why not ban all the men, as incest can happen. There are plenty of examples of this. Just lock the widow up wher no one can see her. This is the logic of a Ph.D. Scientist, i.e., me (who are called doctors also). This is para phrasing Muffy who atacked Drs. When talking about nuss.

Thanks for asking which, helped me explain my words.
actually Iddah is required as per quran, but the Idaho is nothing like the bohra iddat. almost every practice of the bohra community is in islamic. women don't have to wear white locked in a room or not see any male. these are just stuff made up by the unislamic bohra leaders and the abdes blindly follow it



zinger
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#161

Unread post by zinger » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:16 am

SBM wrote:^
New
Your post is very confusing. care to explain in simple 8th grade English. i am only 8th grader so I can not comprehend Ph.D. thesis.
basically, what he is saying that the Quran does not explain things like the periodic table, the genisis of life, DNA, human origins, etc then how and why should we follow it!!!

Strangely enough, the fact that Quran is a message from God is not enough for him.



alam
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#162

Unread post by alam » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:01 pm

New wrote: Let us have men sit in Iddat.
Please carry on in this line of thought. Oops, AND action.
AND no phd scientist mumbo jumbo please.



New
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#163

Unread post by New » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:45 pm

Zinger bhai I did not mention any book by name. Gita is words of Krishna Bhagwan. One can follow whatever one wants to, believe in whatever one wants to believe in. Please, tell me the definition af a fact.



Saeed al Khair
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#164

Unread post by Saeed al Khair » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:06 am

Best idea of relief for dawoodi bohra widow-------kill her after her husband's death.



Saeed al Khair
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#165

Unread post by Saeed al Khair » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:30 pm

Best idea of relief for dawoodi bohra widow-------kill her after her husband's death,because on the name of religion she have to face Hindu customs and traditions which imposed Dawoodi Bohra Clergy for centuries. Quran only instructed to complete the period. Hadith literature provide us many examples that woman in Iddat can wear dresses other then white, on need she can visit her relatives for necessary things, while our Peersaheb's instructed dont talk on phone even with parents, because some non mehram can hear your voice. If Dakoo enter in iddat house just one day before completion of iddat then that unfortunate have have to complete iddat trial again. News papers reading is not allowed. Saheefa of "Busaheba" directed so many Khurafaat



SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#166

Unread post by SBM » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:22 pm

by New on Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:58 am
"There is a way out of Iddat, just get a religeous divorce and continue with your life as if nothing happened. You are still legally married as you have not filed court papers. However, you are living in sin with your boy or girl friend (oh big deal)."
One glaring example of this is someone from Bayte Zainee family, a certain gynaec doctor in California did just that. She got a divorce from her husband when he developed a terminal illness,, and stood by him in his last days while they were divorced. She had little children then, and was working in her practice as a new doctor, and couldn't bear the oppression that iddat would cause. She, being a bensaheb, got Raza from SMB, got a divorce, and skipped iddat. Please, no judgement of what is a sin, or what is a bigger sin. Let Allah be judge.
Another Example from Florida
After her husband's death with whom she had strained relations for year, she was allowed exemption as she was the earning member of family but they told her to do Iddat period (solitary Confinement :evil: ) once her children became adult which was 7 years after husband's death (despite the fact she was mentally tortured and she did not care about his death) May be Adam Bhai can explain what is the sense of having Iddat aka Solitary Confinement after 7 years
Point is Just like Kothar has made fun of doing Maatam at the drop of hat, they make fun of the spirit and command of Allaha's directives about Iddat



saminaben
Posts: 132
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#167

Unread post by saminaben » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:27 pm

Saeed al Khair wrote:Best idea of relief for dawoodi bohra widow-------kill her after her husband's death
Please brother, no need to suggest this even in sarcasm. Never know - the community's children will become orphans overnight.



saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

#168

Unread post by saminaben » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:33 pm

What a shame. What double standards here. Whatever happened to common sense, mercy and logic, seems that it only applies to granting Raza to a select few.

SBM wrote:
by New on Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:58 am
"There is a way out of Iddat, just get a religeous divorce and continue with your life as if nothing happened. You are still legally married as you have not filed court papers. However, you are living in sin with your boy or girl friend (oh big deal)."
One glaring example of this is someone from Bayte Zainee family, a certain gynaec doctor in California did just that. She got a divorce from her husband when he developed a terminal illness,, and stood by him in his last days while they were divorced. She had little children then, and was working in her practice as a new doctor, and couldn't bear the oppression that iddat would cause. She, being a bensaheb, got Raza from SMB, got a divorce, and skipped iddat. Please, no judgement of what is a sin, or what is a bigger sin. Let Allah be judge.
Another Example from Florida
After her husband's death with whom she had strained relations for year, she was allowed exemption as she was the earning member of family but they told her to do Iddat period (solitary Confinement :evil: ) once her children became adult which was 7 years after husband's death (despite the fact she was mentally tortured and she did not care about his death) May be Adam Bhai can explain what is the sense of having Iddat aka Solitary Confinement after 7 years
Point is Just like Kothar has made fun of doing Maatam at the drop of hat, they make fun of the spirit and command of Allaha's directives about Iddat



seeker110
Posts: 1724
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

#169

Unread post by seeker110 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:48 pm

Women are usually better survivors then men in similar situations. Many couples breakup upon the death of their one true love due to war, accidents and street violence. Most of them need help at this time. Instead of helping her overcome her sudden loss, we trap them in this fiasco for no good reason. I like the Japanese custom of showering her with money and gifts to lighten her burden. We need to try to keep her happy and show more love then before. Inviting her more to help her carry on and not be alone in her grief.

Dictators of religions don't like reforms. They are there for one reason alone. Money, and to keep the fold under tight control. Wake up people and think for your selves. Dont be a zombie.



New
Posts: 440
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#170

Unread post by New » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:00 pm

Thank you SBM bhai for attestating my story. I know about one lady from you story.

How about this? If the husband is lost, one sits in the iddat after 7 years, if lost on the water, 10 years after lost on the land. No mention of air or space. What about Malasyian air line? Water or air?

When the Iddat lady is pregnant, Iddat will break up on delivery. Thus, the confinement of 9+ months. You concieve that (pun very much intended).

This Iddat custom is a tyranny of Man as man writes the rule, like FGM. In inheritance she gets just one half of him, as a witness you need 2 vs 1 man. Also parada. I am refering to the bohra customs.

My grand mother used to say that in her time Iddat lady can go out of the house with a can wearing a burkha (not rida).

Stupids have gotten stupider, fools fooler, abdes abder, amtes amter etc etc etcer.

ABOLISH IDDAT AND FREE THE AMTES.

No one should force, if a lady wants to wear white clothes and sit, more power to her.



saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

#171

Unread post by saminaben » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:26 pm

New wrote: My grand mother used to say that in her time Iddat lady can go out of the house with a can wearing a burkha (not rida). both my grandmothers told us the exact same thing too! Thats not even funny, it's downright spooky!

Stupids have gotten stupider, fools fooler, abdes abder, amtes amter etc etc And New getting Newer day by day :lol: :P



New
Posts: 440
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#172

Unread post by New » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:37 pm

Saminben, wah wah, the compliments no one gives me at home or among my friends circle. Where you located? I would love to come and meet you in person before i become too old. Hope you are not in "Parada".

Linkton,

Doagir (not uthaogir) NEWEST

I am starting a new thread Zaheer and Bateen, New and Old, True and False.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#173

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:09 am

Well written ! New !
New wrote:Stupids have gotten stupider, fools fooler, abdes abder, amtes amter etc etc etcer..
Hilariously thoughtful !

Bohras has adopted way too many practices from its hindu ancestory. The sad irony is, the practices which modern hindus has shunned and moved on with progressive times and enlightenment of human values, bohras have been made to stick around with these archaic practices. Major fault lies with the clergy, they have selectively and shrewdly maintained these practices to keep abdes in check.

Iddat is very similar to treatment of hindu widows; white cloths, no interaction, no accessibility, confinement, no entertainment etc. it is like a punishment to woman; how could she live longer than her man ! Thankfully they kept the shaving the head off the list !

Does Quran states above restrictions and confinement of women in iddah ? it would be a interesting discussion. Intrepretation of Quran is reflection of people’s mentality. They can twist and turn every word to suit their convenience. In bohras, it is the clergy who does the interpretations.



zinger
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#174

Unread post by zinger » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:11 am

New wrote:Zinger bhai I did not mention any book by name. Gita is words of Krishna Bhagwan. One can follow whatever one wants to, believe in whatever one wants to believe in. Please, tell me the definition af a fact.
If u want to speak on an Islamic site, then you need to stick to Islamic books.

you are trying to wriggle out now after being caught, not fair :mrgreen:

BTW, im partly in agreement with you about Iddat being extremely harsh. But what can i say, society deems it necessary



saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

#175

Unread post by saminaben » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:51 am

New wrote:Saminben, wah wah, the compliments no one gives me at home or among my friends circle. Where you located? I would love to come and meet you in person before i become too old. Hope you are not in "Parada".

Linkton,

Doagir (not uthaogir) NEWEST

I am starting a new thread Zaheer and Bateen, New and Old, True and False.
NewBhai (unless you a girl in purdah)
I being a girl don't wear RIDA nor a can covered in Burkha because I don't step out of house, so I can't figure out my location yet. Also since I am brainless amte, I don't understand rest of your post since you write in advanced language : ??
"Linkton,
Doagir (not uthaogir) NEWEST". ??

Also Newerbhai, I can't find new threads you posted on - kindly write simply for this stupid amte to follow.

If you succeed in finding me, please just don't tell the world or else my husband will have to sit in iddat.
Khuda Hafiz. Fiamaanillah.



zinger
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

#176

Unread post by zinger » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:18 am

saminaben wrote:
New wrote:Saminben, wah wah, the compliments no one gives me at home or among my friends circle. Where you located? I would love to come and meet you in person before i become too old. Hope you are not in "Parada".

Linkton,

Doagir (not uthaogir) NEWEST

I am starting a new thread Zaheer and Bateen, New and Old, True and False.
NewBhai (unless you a girl in purdah)
I being a girl don't wear RIDA nor a can covered in Burkha because I don't step out of house, so I can't figure out my location yet. Also since I am brainless amte, I don't understand rest of your post since you write in advanced language : ??
"Linkton,
Doagir (not uthaogir) NEWEST". ??

Also Newerbhai, I can't find new threads you posted on - kindly write simply for this stupid amte to follow.

If you succeed in finding me, please just don't tell the world or else my husband will have to sit in iddat.
Khuda Hafiz. Fiamaanillah.
^ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: killer post



New
Posts: 440
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#177

Unread post by New » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:45 am

Samina Bahen the burkha and can thing, I wrote about is for a lady in Iddat in the old days.

Likton at the end means the person who writes the letter in Gujarati. Li for short.

Uthaogir, there are many many. I do not want name one who is very obvious.

There is a fifty percent chance that I am a bhai and fifty for the other. I may be trans sexual. What would you call me bhai New trans bahen. Or how about Mx. or just New.

You are the one who started New => Newer and now me assuming a new name => Newest

No judgement about ones intelligence. I hate judging or name calling as we see here often. We can not fight among ourselves if we want to make progress. Please, do not call yourself the S word.

At times my posts may be confusing. Adat se Majboor Hey.

Those threads I wrote about are Jokes. I have no intenion of starting. That is False and not True. Saying it in public, i.e., zahir.....

I have a fairly good idea who, and where you are. At least where you are not.

What is Flammanllah? My ignorance.



SBM
Posts: 6193
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#178

Unread post by SBM » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:13 am

New
There is a fifty percent chance that I am a bhai and fifty for the other. I may be trans sexual. What would you call me bhai New trans bahen. Or how about Mx. or just New.
No wonder your posts are confusing since you are yourself confused about your own gender. :mrgreen: Please see a Mulla Saheb and may be they can perform a Mojiza on you to clear all the confusion you have about yourself
I have a fairly good idea who, and where you are. At least where you are not.
Funny thing that you have fairly good idea about Saminaben's location while you have no idea about your own gender :mrgreen:



saminaben
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:57 pm

#179

Unread post by saminaben » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:00 pm

New wrote:
No judgement about ones intelligence. I hate judging or name calling as we see here often. We can not fight among ourselves if we want to make progress. Please, do not call yourself the S word.
Judging or name-calling myself in light humor doesn't hurt me - instead does more good than harm for everyone... Including me. Otherwise we take ourselves way way too seriously and become a bore.
If everyone on this forum started this "self-judging", and people reacted like you did to me - it would also do more good than harm.
Sometimes my stupidity and brainlessness brings me back to sympathy from others. :lol: Instead of more attacks :mrgreen:
I think I am a well trained amte - hmmm?



New
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:49 pm

#180

Unread post by New » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:14 pm

Mr. SBM I am not confused, I am just hiding my identity. I know not any genuine Mulla. Do you know one?