iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

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Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#61

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:55 am

The ayat relating to iddat in the Quran does not explicitly mention pregnancy/paternity of foetus as a reason for waiting period;
If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: when they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do. 2:234
But when you view it in conjunction with ayats on divorce and related matter (2:228/33:49/65:1,4) it becomes clear that the waiting period is primarily about determining whether the woman is carrying a child by the deceased husband. The ayat on iddat for divorce 2:228 is followed by the ayat on iddat for the widow 2:234. The reason of pregnancy is explicit in the first and implicit in the second. This should be clear for the people of understanding.

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#62

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:01 pm

You should post 2:228 and the other ayahs that you refer to.

It is pretty clear for men of understanding. What does 2:228 say?

2:228 And the divorced women shall undergo, without remarrying, a waiting-period of three monthly courses: for it is not lawful for them to conceal what God may have created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And during this period their husbands are fully entitled to take them back, if they desire reconciliation; but, in accordance with justice, the rights of the wives [with regard to their husbands] are equal to the [husbands'] rights with regard to them, although men have precedence over them [in this respect]. And God is almighty, wise.

God is talking about a woman trying to "conceal" what God may have created in their wombs. Would a woman who wants to conceal her pregnancy get a pregnancy test willingly? Is it easy to conceal a pregnancy test? Ofcourse. That is the law in pretty much all nations. But can she conceal her womb for 3 monthly courses? Why would a woman try to conceal her pregnancy after divorce? Cause she wants to remarry!! Thanks for pointing this one out. It kind of explains the requirement for the iddat for the widows as well. :wink:

You just gave the kotharis and the badris an excuse to continue their inhuman practices against women. Or did I?

Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#63

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:26 pm

anajmi,
Go back a few posts of yours, this what you said:
anajmi wrote:Does the Quran give a reason for the 4 month iddah period? I gave you the answer as well. It does not.....
The fact that the reason is not mentioned is because Allah knows the past, the present and the future. He knows that if pregnancy is given as a reason, it will become irrelevant in the 21st century. Hence he gave a command and chose not to give a reason. I would say, that is what is perfectly rational.
In response to that I tried to show that the reason - i.e. pregnancy - is implicit in the ayat, when considered in relation with preceding ayats and other ayats.
With your latest post you're accepting that "pregnancy" is indeed the reason behind the iddat for the widow as well.
Now the question as to why determining pregnancy is so important is a secondary issue. It may well be that some women may want to conceal their pregnancy, but that was not my point.

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#64

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:33 pm

With your latest post you're accepting that "pregnancy" is indeed the reason behind the iddat for the widow as well.
There is a subtle difference that needs to be taken into account. I am accepting that the reason might be concealment of pregnancy and not determination of pregnancy. Actually, it is a big difference. Determination of pregnancy makes the wait period unnecessary. Concealment makes it a requirement.

Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#65

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:50 pm

Okay, this much is clear that "pregnancy" is the reason behind all kinds of iddat. And I agree that the difference between "concealing" and "determining" (of pregnancy) is not so subtle. But then it follows that the waiting period must become binding only on those women who want to conceal their pregnancy. If "pregnancy" itself is the issue then a man wanting to marry a widow/divorcee will make sure than the woman is not carrying - with a pregnancy test - without having to wait for her for 4 months and 10 days or 3 months.

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#66

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:57 pm

But then it follows that the waiting period must become binding only on those women who want to conceal their pregnancy.
:mrgreen: "HERE - I want to conceal my pregnancy, so I guess waiting is now mandatory for me"

Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#67

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Exactly, this is what it boils down to. :D

Bohra spring
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#68

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Humsafar wrote:Exactly, this is what it boils down to. :D
Does Anajmi accept Humsafar's point, I believe he did a better job in describing, finally !

Do we have a verdict or hung jury ?

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#69

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:19 pm

The bottom line is the way iddat is practiced by the bohras. If we remove the torture associated with the practice of iddat, then no one will ask for reasons about why it should be done. I do not think waiting for 3 or 4 months after divorce or death is going to be a problem for any woman who wants to re-marry under normal circumstances. People start questioning it because they see the unnecessary hardships that are associated with it.

Consider this, once a visa application to the US is rejected with a stamp on the passport, you cannot apply for a visa for another 2 years. No one really questions the waiting period because those that are waiting aren't thrown in jail. They can go about their lives normally. If however, they were being thrown in jail, then people would start fighting this wait period.

Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#70

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:42 pm

Agreed, the waiting period is not the real issue, but the way it is imposed on Bohra women is. It is inhumane and seems like a punishment. Instead or reforming this cruel institution we're encouraging it. Given Muffadal Maula's anti-women pronouncements this is one more nail against women's interests and rights.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#71

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:57 pm

Humsafar wrote:Okay, this much is clear that "pregnancy" is the reason behind all kinds of iddat.
What about women of 60 or even 80 years of age who are have to undergo this Iddat ? Is pregnancy an issue here ?? The most funny part of Bohra Iddat is that even an 80 year old lady is prohibited from seeing a one year old male infant during the iddat period !!

Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#72

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Yes, "pregnancy" is the issue, and this being so, as I said in my earlier post, Iddat should not even apply to non-menstruating women. But of course Bohras, being lakeer ke fakeer, have taken the whole thing to ridiculous lengths. And the moment you mention that rules around Bohra Iddat must change you have people like badrijanab jumping on you yelling munafik, traitor and what not.

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#73

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:14 pm

I have been trying to figure out how the wives of the prophet (saw) observed iddah. I am not finding anything. I will keep looking and what I am saying now is just my opinion and maybe completely wrong. I have only consulted with sheikh google. I will be consulting with other sheikhs to figure this out.

Since the wives of the prophet (saw) were not allowed to re-marry after his death, they were not required to observe iddah.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#74

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:03 pm

The word(s) "Iddat" appears 4 time(s) in 4 verse(s) in Quran in Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation.

(1) When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #231)

(2) When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and Allah knows, and ye know not.

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #232)

(3) O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #49)

(4) Let the women live (in 'Iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf.

( سورة الطلاق , At-Talaq, Chapter #65, Verse #6)

http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?k ... 2&search=1

ghulam muhammed
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#75

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:14 pm

LOOK AT WHAT THE BOHRA DAI SAYS WITH REGARD TO IDDAT :-

Iddat

•The women whose spouse expires should sit in Iddat for 4 months and 10 nights.

•Raza (Permission) is to be obtained from the Person holding it and if possible from the Dai iz Zamaan. It is a reason for Barakat and Sabar.

•The woman who is going to sit in Iddat should perform a Gusul (Bath) before Magrib. She should do the Wuzu and then the Gusul.

•The Niyat of the Gusul is: -

Allah humma inne agtaselo lil ahdade Bismillah hay Allah hu Akbar.

•A woman sitting in Iddat should pray Magrib - Isha namaz in the Ehdad clothes after the bath.

•She should sit in Iddat after maghrib for 4 months and 10 days and only after the completion of the 10th day after maghrib is she supposed to finish her Iddat.

•Rasulullah (s.a) says: - a woman in Iddat should not wear any neither perfume nor Surma in her eyes, nor apply Mehndi, nor put Fragrance in her hair, nor comb her hair without need, nor don herself with any ornaments or beautify herself, nor wear colouring garments. This sort of Ehdad (Restriction) is required only of the wife. (There is no Ehdad for the woman who is performing the Iddat of Talak – Divorce).

•A custom has been bestowed upon us by the Hudad Kiram (a.s) that, a woman in Iddat should wear white clothes. She should recite the Quran e Majid, Adiyat Mubaraka, Qasaid Mubaraka – especially the Marasiya of Ya Syyeda Shoha Dai. And also recite the Zikr of Awliyah ullah.

•The Iddat is broken if a man or child rather then her blood relation (Mahram) see her or she sees him or them. She has to sit again for 4 months and 10 days.

•If a pregnant woman’s spouse expires, then she has to sit in the Iddat for Abadul Ajalain – meaning that if before the end of 4 months and 10 days she delivers, she should complete the 4 months and 10 days. And if at the end of the 4 months and 10 days she has still not delivered, she should extend the Iddat till she delivers.

•The woman should sit in her Iddat in one place. If due to any illness or other important reason she has to be moved to another place then she will have to redo the whole Iddat again.

•A man can visit his wife’s maternal mother (Mother-in-law) in her Iddat, irrelevant of whether he has a child from that wife or not.

• A man Cannot visit his wife’s mother (Mother-in-law) who is not her maternal mother.

•A man who has a relation (Mehram) by Rada at can visit that woman in her Iddat just as those who are related to her by Blood.

•A man can visit his Step-Mother in her Iddat.

•A man can visit his Step-Mother in her Iddat.

•When a woman finishes her Iddat she is to do the following: -

She should pray Maghrib-Isha namaz in her Iddat clothes and bathe after that. The niyat of which is as follows: -

Allah humma inne agtaselo le tarkil ahdade Bismillah hay Allah hu Akbar.

http://www.amatullahaai.com/Iddat_eng.html

anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#76

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:19 pm

•Rasulullah (s.a) says: - a woman in Iddat should not wear any neither perfume nor Surma in her eyes, nor apply Mehndi, nor put Fragrance in her hair, nor comb her hair without need, nor don herself with any ornaments or beautify herself, nor wear colouring garments. This sort of Ehdad (Restriction) is required only of the wife. (There is no Ehdad for the woman who is performing the Iddat of Talak – Divorce).
This wasn't said by Rasulullah. This was said by Kulbhushan Kharbanda in Prem Rog!!

محمد
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#77

Unread post by محمد » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:54 pm

Brother GM

can you find out with your sources how much money is gonna charged on that iddat house?

seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#78

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:08 pm

There are tests and pills. Use whatever means to keep women free, not enslaved in her hard times.

true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#79

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:04 am

@seeker 110:

Every ayaat of Quran is haqq so if its mentioned in Quran for a period of 4 months and 10 nights, where do we stand to bring a change in Allah's word. There must be a reason why it is mentioned in Quran.

I know test and pills are available now a days but there are exceptions.

Rely on what is given in Quran and not in tests and pills

seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#80

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:19 am

Br tr.bo, Your point is valid and irrefutable. However in my case, I am not smart enough to understand all that is in the Holly Book. Due to the lack of understanding I am honestly scared to read and understand many simple Surat's and Ayah's. Twenty some years ago I took upon me to try to understand all the Surats we recite in the washeak namaz, to the point , where I feel my heart is mutmaeen. Still struggling.

I admire Br,Anajmi for his deligence regarding the words and meaning in our Quran. I am relying on His mercy and forgiveness.

KM1
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#81

Unread post by KM1 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:25 am

Wowww

Till yesterday we all had problems with our Dai and is Administration but today you all have problem with what is written in Quraan and Shariyat also


This show without a proper leaders guidance and right teaching you all will be always getting separated and going towards darkness and disillusion

true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#82

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:30 am

@seeker
That is why I am saying that when you do not understand the true meaning, do not struggle with its applicability. There might be some other reason why a woman is required to perform iddat. Pregnancy might be one its point but always remember Quran is Haqq and we should not dare to question on Allah's command in the Holy Book.

Yes science has advance today very much but there are certain pro scientific theories which are difficult for men to understand and that is why a book like Holy Quran is revealed to the Holy Prophet PBUH which is ultimate turth and a guidance for mankind.

Hope I have made a valid point.

humanbeing
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#83

Unread post by humanbeing » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:57 am

What are the regulations for a widower ? honest question !

seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#84

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:05 am

Br, tr.bo,
You already made an irrefutable point. Thanks.
Br. KM1 I am not looking for regurgitated food from your action packed so called Dai.

I do find it difficult to understand the word of God. Probably because it is the word of God. We needed Nabi to help us understand. We need Ahlebait to show us the way to live the life given to us as dictated in the Holly Book.

I may be dimwit but I am not blind. I may be a blown component, but your leader is complete circuit breakdown. Sell it to somebody else.

Bohra spring
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#85

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:46 am

Those who continue arguing whether Islam is religion of reason and logic vs instructions and commandments
...try explaining the below. One should understand there are less commandments. It is the Saudi style ideology that has focused on literal meaning of the Quran without contextualising its applicability with modernisation.
For example, the institution of alms in Islam is an establishment that helps the poor by the rich and balances the social order, prevents the conflicts between the poor and the rich and turns those conflicts into reconciliation, love-respect and eliminates the injustices that foments the hatred and abhorrence between classes and layers of the society. This function of alms can easily be understood and is very reasonable.

In addition, one of the first conditions of embracing Islam is having faith in Allah and His apostle. The place of belief is the heart. The heart is large enough to hold divine feelings, inspirations, hadiths and for the mind (reason). It is a clear indication of this truth that a person who is not sane is not responsible for having a faith. The style of the Qur’an is full of rational and logical proofs that are required for the approval of man’s reasoning. There are always rational and logical examples when about the fact that the Qur’an is a word of Allah, and the existence of resurrection after death are explained.

Actually, if any order or punishment by Allah does not satisfy man’s reasoning then it cannot be said that a fair test exists here. If someone makes a primary education student responsible for the questions that belong to the sciences which are valid in the works of university or doctorate degree, then that person can be considered to have tortured. That is why, in the Qur’an, there is always an emphasis on human’s reasoning. There are also phrases such as; “Will you not then understand? Will you not then meditate?”
Now can the comment or claim the reason he she pays zakat is because it is a commandment or there is purpose?

true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#86

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:40 am

@seeker
Try to maintain your words because he is the Dai, no matter you believe in him or not but you should respect him as a leader. There may be differences in opinion about his leadership but a million people follow him and thats not an easy things and its difficult to question a million people's faith in one man.

If you cannot respect him as a normal man but do consider the fact he is on the seat given to him by the Holy Imam AS and world knows his services to Islam and community.

KM1
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#87

Unread post by KM1 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:52 am

true_bohra wrote:@seeker
Try to maintain your words because he is the Dai, no matter you believe in him or not but you should respect him as a leader. There may be differences in opinion about his leadership but a million people follow him and thats not an easy things and its difficult to question a million people's faith in one man.

If you cannot respect him as a normal man but do consider the fact he is on the seat given to him by the Holy Imam AS and world knows his services to Islam and community.

TB
Who are you addressing the people who doesn't know anything and I am sure they must have disrespect their own parents so how do u expect them to give respect to our Mola (TUS)

I am sure they also know their illness and problems

SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#88

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:43 am

KM1
Who are you addressing the people who doesn't know anything and I am sure they must have disrespect their own parents so how do u expect them to give respect to our Mola (TUS)
That is why current Syedna 52 does not talk about his mother? So the reformist are truly following the teaching of 52

seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#89

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:36 am

Sirs, as I have admitted, I am not a smart person. I dont know anything . I pray and usually ask for forgives for hurting living souls, plants and animals. I admire our Hindu br. for being so kind to animals. I love my sikh brs. for their charity langars. I admire my chirstian brs. for the hospitals, schools and other charity they provide. Sunni and Shia is what our parents made, out of each other. I love, and I love to love. You may get up in the morning to pray, I also get up and make sure to wild birds have food and water for their young ones. So I call it my act of thanking my creator. I usually look for any naiky that I can win, to wash away the sins committed during the given day. Allah is all I need, people who love me tell me I should do this and that. I don't do what they suggest. You see, I am perfectly happy with my relationship with Allah. I am afraid if I change, He might change. This is a 100% give and take relationship. He gives 100%, I take 100%. I don't want to upset the setup any any shape and form.
I have loved Moula Ali's household. Basically organized and learned from Rasulallah. I admire the man who raised H. Abbas. Moula Ali received help from Bibi, and Rasul while Shabbar and Shabbir were growing up. But when it comes to H. Abbas, it was a lot of one man project. Show me a son who can out perform. If you can then I am monkey's uncle. I learned to stay away from greed, I learned the simple life philosophy. Shinny objects require upkeep. I dont care much for them. A little bit is enough to sustain. My Mola Ali taught me that. The last time I worked 8 hours straight for money was close to a decade ago. Most fellow techs in my field make $1000/day. I just need very little to survive. So I dont take money to be my friend. It is there for use. As I have mentioned I am not smart, I believe too much money can be self destruction. Examples are Mickel Jackson, OJ Simpson ,Tahir Saifuddin and that 75 year old millionair rapist Sai Bahgha (paisa le kar). Allah blessed me with two good looking and intelligent kids. What else can I want . I have won everything. My children will get to earn easily. I don't need to save anything . I trust Allah, I punch my son's bazoo and call him semi truck. He is strong and built well. Hard work will never tire him. All the scholarships and free money he gets, tells me he is doing good in school. Even when he was a year old, women use to say he will break many girls heart.
I am rich beyond my wildest dream. When I travel I only worry about bird food and water. My clients have choice, so I dont carry electronic when I travel.
I get music and poetry from Iqbal, Ghalib Faiz and others with the sounds of Rahat fatehali, Anup Jalota, Mehdi Hasan Jagjit Noor Jehan ,Dire Straight, Lynard Skynard, Seve Millar Band and Coke studio and many others.

Yes I have mental problems, I am in love. Allah is Shafi and Allah Kafi. I believe I have 100% good life. It has worked for many decades. I am too coward to upset this cart. Seeker110 and thats who I am. I am also thankful for hot black weak Coffee. Salams.

true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#90

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:47 am

I appreciate you have good habits and keep appraising them. Allah is all Maalik and all I can say is Jazakallah Khair but try to refrain yourself from abusing the Dai. If you wish not to believe in him then better not say anything against him. TAKE IT AS AN HONEST ADVISE FROM A MUMIN.