iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

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SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#91

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:52 am

but try to refrain yourself from abusing the Dai. If you wish not to believe in him then better not say anything against him. TAKE IT AS AN HONEST ADVISE FROM A MUMIN.
TB
Why do not you follow the same advice If you wish not to believe in first 3 Khalifas then better not say anything against them and try to refrain yourself from abusing them, CAN YOU PASS THE SAME ADVICE TO YOUR KOTHARI GOONS ALSO



true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#92

Unread post by true_bohra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:53 am

Ohh tell me were the 3 on haqq. were they loyal to the Holy Prophet PBUH???



anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#93

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:18 am

Tell me is your Dai on haq? Is he loyal to the holy prophet (saw)?



anajmi
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#94

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:26 am

You may get up in the morning to pray, I also get up and make sure to wild birds have food and water for their young ones.
seeker,

you sure can post some sanctimonious bull crap behind your façade of doing it for the "love" of Allah. You ignore the commands that He has given you so that you can pretend to be the Lord of the Birds?



seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#95

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:41 am

tr.bo, br. your eyes are good and you see very well, but you have no vision. You have blinders the ones they use on horses. Br. Allah made 8 bil. people and a vast planet. Go out and see, why do revert back to Khalifa. Did they not enjoy Ali's company. Did Ali and Nabi ever said bad things about them ? Leave that matter alone. If there is any truth in your so called present day Leader show us.
Have you seen your Leader with a pen, hull, axe any machine tools, soiled clothes. Does he look like the man can help someone in a fight. Push a car out of a ditch. Eat at a soup kitchen or sweep floors there or at a hospital.

The one true leader I believe in had torn clothes, his children had torn clothes. He worked growing food and planting trees. His wife never gave him Tana for not bringing home the bacon ( parden my french). She never asked her father what happened to the millions my mother owned. Why and how can you eat aata and be thankful.

tr,bo here is your shot, show us what you say about your Leader. Remember show us. Please the whole gang here needs to see with eyes. Not with ears. Show us please, I want your hero in action. Could you please prove it. I am stupid and blind. Please shows us all. I want to see your leader holding a yateem child, crying in pain with the sick and down trodden. I want to see him eating soup with the poor. I want to see him earn a pay check. Sometimes I wonder who gets a cut from poor peoples money collection. You think we can not figuire out whose mother raised a numbnut. We all know who is shareeq in this haram. Allah gave you everything use brains or pen or labor. HE will take away the sweetness of life, your's and your children's. With this much wealth your own children will wish you die, so that they themselves can rob their siblings of the ill gotten loot.

Take your time, get help from your gang. They might have material to refute what I am talking about. I arrest my case. The ball is in your court.
Please dont talk bad about Nabi and Ali friends and associates. No matter how much hate you create with Khalifa business, your leader will not sparkle. You were cheated like the rest. You just dont know it. Its the vision thing........ Salam



SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#96

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:11 pm

true_bohra wrote:Ohh tell me were the 3 on haqq. were they loyal to the Holy Prophet PBUH???
Yes because Imam Ali did not object to their appointment nor did he rebel against their khilafat and he did not utter any Laanats on them.



SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#97

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:44 pm

anajmi wrote:Tell me is your Dai on haq? Is he loyal to the holy prophet (saw)?
Dai is not even loyal to his own mother and you are asking about his loyalty to Holy Prophet SAW :x



true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#98

Unread post by true_bohra » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:47 am

@SBM
Maula Ali AS did not object because Islam was on stake and you and me would not have survived, if Maula Ali AS had objected.

you believe in the authority of 3 khalifas but not to the words of the Holy Prophet PBUH "man kunto Maulaho fahada Aliyun Maulaho"



SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#99

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:20 am

TB
Is Syenda disrespectful to his own mother by not mentioning or doing Ziyarat on his Qabr while he does it for his wife. He started Amatullah trust and built a Roza for his wife why not a trust or a Mausoleum for his own mother?



KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#100

Unread post by KM1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:40 am

SBM wrote:
anajmi wrote:Tell me is your Dai on haq? Is he loyal to the holy prophet (saw)?
Dai is not even loyal to his own mother and you are asking about his loyalty to Holy Prophet SAW :x

SBM

Do you even understand what you are saying or just like a crazy n crack person you write

If our Dai was not there who would shown you the way and teaching of Islam

Today if you are challenging the Head of the Dawoodi Bohra Community and you think he doesn't respect the Holy Prophet then you are definitely not fit to call yourself Bohra when you dont have trust on him

And if this the case then whats your standing. What is your fight when you don't belong to Dawoodi Bohra Community

Kindly clarify



seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#101

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:39 am

Br tr-bo, You could not bring any pictures or video of Sydna doing stuff of Khair or showing love for the poor masses. You came back with, " respect the the man even though, he is an old Lutera. Brother you cannot produce for no such thing it doesn't exist. You think its a secret to us?
So my next question to you is,. How are you related, from mother's side or fathers side? Did your children ever see you in work boots?.



SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#102

Unread post by SBM » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:57 am

KM1 wrote:
SBM wrote: Dai is not even loyal to his own mother and you are asking about his loyalty to Holy Prophet SAW :x
SBM
Do you even understand what you are saying or just like a crazy n crack person you write
If our Dai was not there who would shown you the way and teaching of Islam
Kindly clarify
Kindly clarify who is the mother of Syedna and why he never mentions about her. YOU QUESTIONED REFORMIST ABOUT THEIR UPBRINGING AND SAID THAT REFORMIST DO NOT RESPECT THEIR OWN PARENTS HOW ABOUT SYEDNA HIMSELF, JUST ANSWER THAT THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT HIM NOT RESPECTING PROPHET
If our Dai was not there who would shown you the way and teaching of Islam
I donot need Dai to teach me about Islam, The Dai who can not even speak and needs his son in law to clarify about the Naas,A Dai who is in Stupor and according to Shariah can not even lead Namaaz because of his state of mind and health, how can he teach us about Islam and which Islam are you talking about?



ghulam muhammed
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#103

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:49 pm

true_bohra wrote:Maula Ali AS did not object because Islam was on stake and you and me would not have survived, if Maula Ali AS had objected.
So Islam was not on stake when Mola Ali's son Imam Hussain (a.s.) objected to Yazid's rule ???? And that too with a handful of followers wherein Mola Ali (a.s.) had thousands of followers during his lifetime.



KM1
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#104

Unread post by KM1 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:12 am

Kindly clarify who is the mother of Syedna and why he never mentions about her. YOU QUESTIONED REFORMIST ABOUT THEIR UPBRINGING AND SAID THAT REFORMIST DO NOT RESPECT THEIR OWN PARENTS HOW ABOUT SYEDNA HIMSELF, JUST ANSWER THAT THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT HIM NOT RESPECTING PROPHET
If our Dai was not there who would shown you the way and teaching of Islam
I donot need Dai to teach me about Islam, The Dai who can not even speak and needs his son in law to clarify about the Naas,A Dai who is in Stupor and according to Shariah can not even lead Namaaz because of his state of mind and health, how can he teach us about Islam and which Islam are you talking about?[/quote]


SBM
When you don't like our Dai or you don't need is teaching then why do you want to get associate with is community and why do you want to be Dawoodi Bohra so please stop being hypocrite.

Regarding our Mola (TUS) Aaisaheba we all know we regularly pray her fateha in niyaz done by our Mola TUS i.e 19 Ramazan and 8th Moharram which is done every year but I am sure you must be not aware bec you are not one of us naa :| .

Free Advice for you
SBM if you don't like something just leave it and choose something new don't waste your time and energy and Pls don't worry about Dawoodi Bohra Community we all our fine and we love our Mola (TUS) because we all know what he has done for our life and for our community



SBM
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#105

Unread post by SBM » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:22 am

Regarding our Mola (TUS) Aaisaheba we all know we regularly pray her fateha in niyaz done by our Mola TUS i.e 19 Ramazan and 8th Moharram which is done every year but I am sure you must be not aware bec you are not one of us naa :| .
So where is her Qabr Located and when is her Barsi celebrated, Why her Barsi is not listed on any of the Abde Website calenders?So Moula only remembers his mother twice a year, WHAT AN AFFECTION and that is also on the handout of the Community Money, (Moula ni taraf si niyaz but people have to pay- WOW if that is How Moula respects his mother, nothing more can be said
Free Advice for you
SBM if you don't like something just leave it and choose something new don't waste your time and energy and Pls don't worry about Dawoodi Bohra Community we all our fine and we love our Mola (TUS) because we all know what he has done for our life and for our community
Free Advice for you
This is the Progressive Website, you are privileged to be here and express your opinion not necessarily about Abdes only but on wide variety of issues. It seems you should be heeding the advice and farman of your Moula who has told you to stay away from Dushmaans and why I bother about DBs because I still do have friends and extended family part of this group and read my link in "Reformist working against...."



Bohra spring
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#106

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:09 am

It seems many Kothar supporters forget that everything is not Sayednas property..eg like this website.

What audacity that they come to this site and shoos reformists ! They are guests like we all are...be courteous and humble to the hosts ...let us



juzerali
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#107

Unread post by juzerali » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:48 pm

SBM wrote:
but try to refrain yourself from abusing the Dai. If you wish not to believe in him then better not say anything against him. TAKE IT AS AN HONEST ADVISE FROM A MUMIN.
TB
Why do not you follow the same advice If you wish not to believe in first 3 Khalifas then better not say anything against them and try to refrain yourself from abusing them, CAN YOU PASS THE SAME ADVICE TO YOUR KOTHARI GOONS ALSO
SBM you nailed it.



juzerali
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#108

Unread post by juzerali » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:02 pm

Coming back to the point, the Iddat house by Kothar is not a good idea because after loosing a husband, the widow would want her family members around her. Probably daughters or sons. She might get some solace by seeing her grandchildren both males and females. The Iddat house will probably have many rooms so as to accommodate as many widows and naturally all men will be prohibited from entering. In this sense it is a disservice to the widow by cutting her off from her family members. This will also become a dumping house for indifferent sons and daughters who do not want to care for their mothers and think they are better off, thus keeping her from the company of her innocent grand children as well who might comfort them in this time.



Humsafar
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#109

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:00 pm

seeker110,
I admire your way of looking at the world. You actually turned out to be the maverick and non-conformist I always suspected you to be. And your wry sense of humour is just the icing on the cake. Way to go bro, you're the type for whom Timothy Leary said "tune in and drop out". I share your attitude and philosophy of life, but I do not have the courage to live it out as fully as you're doing. More power to fearless souls like you.



true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#110

Unread post by true_bohra » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:42 am

@juzer
The way you lookin at it is completely wrong. It is not a compulsion that you have to go there n complete your iddat term. Its your wish but there are many in community who have no one to look after them. It is for them so that she could find peace there and can get a company of like women.



zinger
Posts: 1942
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#111

Unread post by zinger » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:04 am

true_bohra wrote:@juzer
The way you lookin at it is completely wrong. It is not a compulsion that you have to go there n complete your iddat term. Its your wish but there are many in community who have no one to look after them. It is for them so that she could find peace there and can get a company of like women.
To build up on what True Bohra has said, yes, there is no compulsion whatsoever.

If the woman is all alone, supposing her children have settled abroad and she has no immediate family, then it is ideal.

my aunt who lives in Kolkata lost her husband 3 years ago was under stress because she had only her daughter who would go to work. she lived in a non-Bohra area and my cousin could only take an off for so many days.
for the rest of the time, she had to rely on neighbours and whenever we came to visit her, which was once in 2 or 3 weeks only.
to the extent that we had to post under the building and outside the door that this is a house of a widow in mourning hence outsider males please do not ring the doorbell

now if my aunt had the same facility there at the time, then she would have been at peace. and given that she has a daughter, there would be no issue in her coming to meet her mum at all times

there are always 2 sides to every coin, you can choose to look only at the negatives all the time if you want and arrive at conclusions that the woman will be deprived of meeting her family (as if it is being forced on her) or it is only for the rich (i wonder wherever did this come from) but do not forget that there are positives as well.



incredible
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#112

Unread post by incredible » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:08 am

with money some body can book 7 star hotel as a iddat room, so there is no big deal in this building.

it would have been special if it was FREE OF COST with genuine interest to help widows.



seeker110
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#113

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:21 am

Whenever kothar is involved in a project that has noble intentions, the bohras suffer. Tr-bo, can you give the time where poor sick bohras see a physician for free at the Saify hospital.
Looks like prison labor to me. Widows will have to pay hefty to get in.



silvertongue
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#114

Unread post by silvertongue » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:26 am

Ahhh its no use... All Maula Maula and Maula.. Blind people.. Its useless.



humanbeing
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#115

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:19 am

Guys ! Come on ! Give Kothar a break ! A little Break ! Lets wait and watch on this project. How it turns out ! on paper it looks noble idea ( under the belief of bohra community)


There is no compulsion ! infact jamaats would prefer women who direly need these services as it may lead to over crowding. Rich Widows may find it against their status or comfort to be at these iddat houses. Morever rich widows may have relatives to take care of (rich always have supporting relatives). It is poor who are deserted !



incredible
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#116

Unread post by incredible » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:02 pm

humanbeing wrote:Guys ! Come on ! Give Kothar a break ! A little Break ! Lets wait and watch on this project. How it turns out ! on paper it looks noble idea ( under the belief of bohra community)


There is no compulsion ! infact jamaats would prefer women who direly need these services as it may lead to over crowding. Rich Widows may find it against their status or comfort to be at these iddat houses. Morever rich widows may have relatives to take care of (rich always have supporting relatives). It is poor who are deserted !
this is outcome of kothar teachings and life style. that bohras have become emotionless greedy robots.



Starwars
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#117

Unread post by Starwars » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:44 pm

simple wrote:can anybody tell me iddat custom has any relevance in Islam? In our so called finest community when husband dies wife have 4 month self imposed jail. i think this is gross violation of human and female rights.reformist should go to human right commission to change this horrible custom.
Brilliant idea. You have described iddat in bohras aptly - it is a self-imposed jail. Women visitors dictate the iddat lady more stringent made-made rules such as - she should not look out at the sky, cannot look at the fish aquarium in her house, paintings etc, she cannot read newspapers, magazines. The only picture she is allowed to display is late bu-saheb's photo..! Honestly is this fair.



true_bohra
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Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#118

Unread post by true_bohra » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:43 am

@ starwars:
it is not a brilliant idea at all. I have already mentioned about Quran stating on Iddat.

And it is all fabricated things that women should not look at sky and read newspaper and all. Women is allowed to do anything she want. The only things she is restricted to is that no men should see her and hear her voice.

Fish aquarium and all things is bull shit. She can see all men but no gair mehroom men should see her. Shariat e Mohammediyah is far flexible than what we think.



zinger
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#119

Unread post by zinger » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:16 am

true_bohra wrote:@ starwars:
it is not a brilliant idea at all. I have already mentioned about Quran stating on Iddat.

And it is all fabricated things that women should not look at sky and read newspaper and all. Women is allowed to do anything she want. The only things she is restricted to is that no men should see her and hear her voice.

Fish aquarium and all things is bull shit. She can see all men but no gair mehroom men should see her. Shariat e Mohammediyah is far flexible than what we think.

Thanks True Bohra bhai, even i though that these rules were some major bullshit, but since i am not as well-versed as you are, i kept quiet that maybe i was unaware

Fish aqauriam was completely bizarre. i wonder where that came from



alam
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: iddat in bohras gross violation of human rights???

#120

Unread post by alam » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:00 am

zinger wrote:
true_bohra wrote:@ starwars:
it is not a brilliant idea at all. I have already mentioned about Quran stating on Iddat.

And it is all fabricated things that women should not look at sky and read newspaper and all. Women is allowed to do anything she want. The only things she is restricted to is that no men should see her and hear her voice.

Fish aquarium and all things is bull shit. She can see all men but no gair mehroom men should see her. Shariat e Mohammediyah is far flexible than what we think.

Thanks True Bohra bhai, even i though that these rules were some major bullshit, but since i am not as well-versed as you are, i kept quiet that maybe i was unaware

Fish aqauriam was completely bizarre. i wonder where that came from
Not to belabor the issue : but I am aware of the following facts from personal experiences for women in iddat in my family and and close friends. You got to understand and keep in mind the context of "what you can or cannot do" varies so much from one Jamaat or community to another , from one set of families to another, from who is amil's bensaheb in what location at what time.
There is a lot of variation I have observed in "what you can and cannot do" - because a lot of it is arbitrary, and the experience and consensus among some people is that the more you ask about the details "of what you can or cannot do",the worse the restrictions get.!
Yes there are instances that I can easily vouch for:
No newspapers
No opening window for fresh air (even when privacy is not an issue)
Fish aquarium -
Cannot converse on telephone
Cannot hear a mehramdaar woman or man on phone
No photo of non-mehramdaar, husband, aqa maula - depends who you ask - varies.


There are a lot of variations in what people say yu can or cannot do. So my observation and conclusion has been that in he last 5-10 years, the "OFFICIAL" rules (which btw vary a lot- depending on who you ask) have got more restrictive, as a result most people (who are courageous and have immediate family support) do the bare minimum, or some just don't observe iddat anymore.

And my guess is that Dawat is aware of this and therefore the Birth of the Iddat House upon the death of the husband came into being.

It is likely to help a few folks with some viable options.

Nevertheless, the Iddat House is an example of dressing up an inordinately oppressive practice of iddat in the first place.