Islamic and unislamic concepts

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
hur
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01 am

Islamic and unislamic concepts

#1

Unread post by hur » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:26 pm

I wanted to follow up on a post by BB:

Regarding ziyafat:
"I agree with you Ziyafat is personal choice and believe me there are thousands of Poor willing to have "Kadam" of Aqua Mola at thier house but problem is they ask them to have atleast 100,000$ to get this opportunity.Brother how can a poor afford to have that much of money to fullfil his personal choice."

--I know for a fact that the Dai has visited many poor people in general and at their homes without paying a cent. It is true larger somes are asked for ziyafats. No one has ever asked who these somes are asked of...usually those who are wealthy to begin with. Also, the ziyafat of the rich are unfortunately the events that are publicized.

ME wrote: "Even a small querry such as the name of a baby is answered to the most serious one. at this age he has never forsaken us whether poor or rich."

BB responded: "Believe me this also costs you.You get to bribe from Mulla to Shehzada to reach Auqa Mola."

---This is utterly false. You can request names directly from the Vazarat or through the amil...at no cost of any kind.

BB wrote: "I agree with you aqua Moula is doing a great job at this age but there are many other people enjoying in him name."

---This is the same for all great leader...the ambious leech on.

BB wrote noted things unislamic with Bohras:
1)concept of Priest itself is unislamic
---priest translated to mullah or shiekh. Sayedna means "our leader". The Prophet was is officially called in du'ahs Sayedna Muhammad. Dai means missionary or caller to the faith...Mawlana Ali was the Dai of Yemen assigned by the Prophet.

2)bowing down to any one is unislamic.
---hadiths of the sunni and shia Imams quoted occurances where followers commoning did sujud as'sukar before addressing the Prophet or Imams.

3)praying laanat on any muslim brother is unislamic.
---the Prophet, Imams, and noble companions are recorded in hadiths cursing "muslims" that went against them and Islam.

4)wadawa ni rasm is unislamic
---The act of wadhawanu rasm is regarded as removing bad spirit or performing a nadhir. The things on the plate are to given as charity and is a custom of many parts of the near and far east. It is no different than fasting or giving money for sadaqa.

5)praying 3 times a day instead of 5 times is unislamic.

---The required is five salats..not five times. you should note that in Hajj...it is required to pray zuhr/asr and maghrib/isha one after another.

6)taking zakaat as a lumpsum and then incresing it every year is unislamic.
---this is actually done because the vast majority don't give what they are required to begin with. It's the equivalent to having to negoitate the minimum amount of salat a person prays.

7)not allowing to understand Quran is unislamic.
---Please quote where this from?

When ortho bohras curse you...it is because who you are blantantly criticizing goes directly against the Bohras mithaq. To be a bohra is not a club or group...but a society held together by beliefs. Those who oppose these beliefs are considered outside the smaller society.

I mean think about, how can you call yourself a bohra yet oppose one of the key people (the Dai) associated with one being a bohra?!

Some people say we believe in the position of the Dai...but not this person who is the Dai. That equivalent to saying I believe in the position of Imam...but not this person who is the Imam of the time.

In general, I would ask you to ask more than the person easiest to you for answers. Just because you can't find the answers...doesn't mean they don't exist. A mullah knows as much and as accurately as he was taught, he should never claim to be an expert...nor should you.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
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Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#2

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:14 pm

Hur wrote:
hadiths of the sunni and shia Imams quoted occurances where followers commoning did sujud as'sukar before addressing the Prophet or Imams.
Please post sunni Hadith/Ahadith about occurances where followers commoning did sujud as'sukar before addressing the Prophet
The required is five salats..not five times. you should note that in Hajj...it is required to pray zuhr/asr and maghrib/isha one after another.
God has ordered Rasul SAW to pray 5 Salats at 5 specific times.

It is 5 Salats to be prayed 5 times at its earliest time. There at Ahidit where Prophet SAW combined Z/A and M/I for reason and without any reason (or for reason known to Allah only).

On Hajj you are required to combine it because it is Sunnah and you are copying the Hajj of Rasul SAW.

Wasalaam
.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#3

Unread post by Danish » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:32 am

Salaams,
Originally posted by Muslim First:
Hur wrote:
God has ordered Rasul SAW to pray 5 Salats at 5 specific times.
Please post those ayats that reflect 5 salats or 5 specific times of "namaz" as ordered to Rasul in the Quran.
It is 5 Salats to be prayed 5 times at its earliest time. There at Ahidit where Prophet SAW combined Z/A and M/I for reason and without any reason (or for reason known to Allah only).
There is no such thing as 5 Salats prayed 5 times a day. That is all man-made hypocrsy, conjecture and idolworship dogmas geared towards a STONE STRUCTURE. Where do you get this from the Quran? Besides, let me know where in the Quran does it specifically orders Muhammad for any kind of salaat (ritual pagan prayers)?
On Hajj you are required to combine it because it is Sunnah and you are copying the Hajj of Rasul SAW.
There's no such thing as "Hajj of Rasul" or the so-called "sunnah"? That is totally balooney and a laughing stock. :o

Perhaps, you ought to read "porus's" post on another thread about a convert in regards to Islam.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
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Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#4

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:57 am

Danish,

You are a moron. You belive in the quran and still do not understand what it says.

002.238
YUSUFALI: Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

002.239
YUSUFALI: If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).

002.277
YUSUFALI: Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

004.043
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

005.095
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

Indication of what not to do during pilgrimage (Hajj)

005.097
YUSUFALI: Allah made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

And you talk about it as a satanic symbol. May Allah punish those who say such things about the kaaba.

You are an unbelievable idiot. I don't know why I keep replying to your moronic posts.

And what porus posted was about a guy who didn't deserve to be a muslim, something similar to you.

BB
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#5

Unread post by BB » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:49 am

In response to Brother Hur's comment

By the way u have a very beutiful Name.

I know for a fact that the Dai has visited many poor people in general and at their homes without paying a cent. It is true larger somes are asked for ziyafats. No one has ever asked who these somes are asked of...usually those who are wealthy to begin with. Also, the ziyafat of the rich are unfortunately the events that are publicized.

Can you kindly list any of those fortunate poor in any of the city.I can give you the list of rich Bohris in rajasthan and middleeast where auqa mola visited and they paid huge sum as Nazrana.Please don't be blindfolded they do set a deal before ziyafat is arranged and its been ordered that so and so amount should be offered if they want to have Ziyafat.

--This is utterly false. You can re I know quest names directly from the Vazarat or through the amil...at no cost of any kind.

Its true i am not talking about getting name through Aamil because when you get it from Aamil its not from Auqa mola its from Shehzada and if you want to see auqa mola for any thing you got to bribe mullah in the form of salaam.

hadiths of the sunni and shia Imams quoted occurances where followers commoning did sujud as'sukar before addressing the Prophet or Imams.
Please quote the Hadith.

You are stricktly forbided in islam to bow down to any one other than Allah and if you do so you are commiting SHIRK and there is no maafi for this grave sin.
Kissing the feet of molana is islamic?

Females kissing hand of non mehram is Islamic?

praying laanat on any muslim brother is unislamic.

I have read that in Quran its clearly mentioned that cursing laana to a believer is a sin

--- The act of wadhawanu rasm is regarded as removing bad spirit or performing a nadhir.
Its not a ismalic its an innovation and its infact Hindu/pagan rituals

- this is actually done because the vast majority don't give what they are required to begin with. It's the equivalent to having to negoitate the minimum amount of salat a person prays.
Its really funny and its again an innovation and in islam innovations are stricktly prohibited.How can you negotiate Zakaat amount?its a fard on every muslim to pay 2.5 % of his
1)bank balance on first day of ramadhan
2)jwellery in excess of specific weight.
3)property other than your dwelling propertY and that too if you have bought that property with an intention of Investment.

You must pay zakaat on above and you can pay this to any poor in your vicinity.

But what our mullas are doing now a days is even worst than that they call the people who have not paid zakaat for say 4-5 years and forgive them zakaat for last 4 years and ask them to start from this year.NO one has rights to do so its one of the five pillar of islam.only Allah Taala has the rights to forgive or punish the believer on the day of judgement.

not allowing to understand Quran is unislamic.
you mean to say its true that we should not be allowed to read Quran with meaning.
I really pitty you if you trust them on this regard.you are missing the most beutiful thing in your life by not reading Quraan with meaning.

Those who oppose these beliefs are considered outside the smaller society.

well we are Muslim first and then Bohri and in Islam you have rights to ask each and every question regarding salaat, zakaat,saum,haj,sex etc etc.

In general, I would ask you to ask more than the person easiest to you for answers. Just because you can't find the answers...doesn't mean they don't exist. A mullah knows as much and as accurately as he was taught, he should never claim to be an expert...nor should you.

if Aamil saheb are not able to answer our question then whome should we consult?Are they there to Eat 2 KHARAS and 2 Mithas or they are there to deliver Vaaz for 3-4 Hours and believe me we have never learned a single new thing from that vaaz after spending hours and hours in those sermons.

May Allah guide you and us all to determine and understand all the manifestations of this horrendous sin, so that we all can keep away from it. May Allah bless you and your families and keep us all in His infinite Mercy and Protection. May Allah guide you and us all to the Siraat al Mustaqeem (Straight Path of Islam).

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
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Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#6

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:01 pm

.
{1} FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME :

Allah gave us the times for the Salat in the Quran :

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11:114,24:58

(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher) , given in 17:78 and 30:18

(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2:238

(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11:114

(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 24:58

As you can see from the Quran, Allah tells us to do Salat at specific times, and then He tells us what these times are.

.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
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Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#7

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:26 pm

4)wadawa ni rasm is unislamic
---The act of wadhawanu rasm is regarded as removing bad spirit or performing a nadhir. The things on the plate are to given as charity and is a custom of many parts of the near and far east. It is no different than fasting or giving money for sadaqa.
Abdullah bin Masud reported:

The Prophet SAW said, " Believing in bad Omens is Shirk " He repeated it three times and then said, " There is nothing that Allah would not remove if we have trust in Him"

Related by Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi

Quran 65:3

And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine. And if anyone puts his trust in Allah sufficient is (Allah) for him. For Allah will surely accomplish His purpose: verily for all things has Allah appointed a duen proportion.

.

khan19922001
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#8

Unread post by khan19922001 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:17 pm

I find Hur's attempt to justify the Bohri ( or should I call them Hindu ) rituals pathetic.

I could not imagine anyone believing that "wadhana" is an Islamic ritual. His explantion is equally disturbing. If bohri's fall for this sort of logic then we can only pray that God's gives them guidance.

Regards

hur
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#9

Unread post by hur » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:05 pm

BB,
thank you for the compliment on my name.

Now to the statements, I will hopefully address those that I can:

Regarding ziyafat, three of my own relative in Mumbai have been honored with them...no money but just an ardhi to Maula, through a shahzada. I have heard of others personally as well. Again, as I noted, the only ones that get publicity is where a rich person has the ziyafat because they are more extravagant. Alot of time, those who are not well off have a joint ziyafat at a mosque or another person's home for Maula.

Regarding names, yes they are from Maulana..though distributed from shahzadas. When Maulana came to the US, many friends of mine ask him directly for names for their children.

Regarding bowing, you are strictly forbidden to bow in WORSHIP to anyone other than Allah. There are many hadiths where persons bowed in sukar to Prophet. Kissing the feet and hand of Maula is sunnah of Rasullah and the Imams. In fact, majority of the shiah hadith start with the person addressing the Imam as "Oh Imam, may my family be sacrificed for you,...."
Please refer to the thread on this site for a detailed discussion
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 851#000000

Regarding salat, I would ask MuslimFirst to read the arabic and check them. The ayat you use for asr...actually refers to zhuhr. The ayat you use for Isha doesn't refer to a specific time. There are only four times specified in the Quran: Dawn, Midday, Dusk, and Midnight (for salatul Layl). There are five prayers specified though via Quran and traditions.

Regarding lanaat on a believer is forbidden. A believer is not one who oppose the belief that a believer should hold. Bohras consider a mumin (believer) one who believes and honors the Imam and his Dai. This is an article of faith. One who opposes this is not considered a believer, but a munafiq. Laanat on a declared munafiq is allowed.

Regarding, wadhwanu rasm, you didn't take the intention of the rasm. Nadhar or nazar is an arabic term refering to the removal of evil eye or bad omen. Examples of practicing nazar is to wear a tawiz, tasbih, recitation of Quran, fasting for a certain number of days, giving sadaqa in food or money, circling a person head with water reciting various ayats and surah. All of these are recorded by the Prophet and Imams in hadith. The act of taking coconut, rice, candies, etc. on a plate and circling the body 3 or 7 times and giving it as sadaqa is also a practice recorded in a hadith by Fatima az'Zahra. The fact it is practiced by many Muslims countries like Nigeria, Eygpt, Algers, Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, Malaysia, etc. discounts the idea of it being a Hindu custom. There are many Islamic traditions that the Hindus adopted from the Mughals.

Some references to nadhar is the following from Muwatta of Imam Malik:
Book 50, Number 50.2.3:
Yahya related to me from Malik that Humayd ibn Qays al-Makki said, "A man came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, with the two sons of Jafar ibn Abi Talib. He said to their nursemaid, 'Why do I see them so thin?' Their nursemaid said, 'Messenger of Allah, the evil eye goes quickly to them. Nothing stops us from asking someone to make incantations (using ayats of Qur'an) for them, except that we do not know what of that would agree with you.' The Messenger of ,Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Make incantations for them. Had anything been able to precede the decree, the evil eye would precede it.' "

Book 50, Number 50.4.10:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr from A'isha that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, when he had a complaint, would recite the last three suras of Qur'an, over himself and blow. She said, "When his pain was great, I would recite it over him and wipe him with his right hand hoping for its blessing."

Book 50, Number 50.6.15:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Hisham ibn Urwa from Fatima bint al-Mundhir that whenever a woman who had a fever, was brought to Asma bint Abi Bakr, she made dua for her and took water and poured it inside her collar. She said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered us to cool it with water."

Book 50, Number 50.4.9:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yazid ibn Khusayfa that Amr ibn Abdullah ibn Kab as-Salami told him that Nafi ibn Jubayr told him that Uthman ibn Abi al-As came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Uthman said that he had a pain which was enough to kill him. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Rub it with your right hand seven times and say, 'I take refuge with the might of Allah and His power from the evil of what I feel.' "

Uthman added, "I said that, and Allah removed what I had. I still command my family and others to say it."

Regarding zakat, 2.5% is an amounted developed by various organizations for quick accounting. It could be more or less than that amount. Secondly, you can pay to any poor person if there is not established collection organization of the leader of the community. Thus, for a bohra, you would pay the amil for Imam/Dai; the ithna ashari pay the local wali mullah for Imam/Ayatullah. This is sunnah established by the Prophet and enacted by Maulana Ali.
Also, shiah pay khums on their property/wealth as well.
Regarding your statement on those that haven't paid for 4-5 years...typically they are asked to pay a weight average sum for those years and then the current year. I find it hard to believe any amil will forgive the zakat...unless the person truly hasn't the means to pay in the first place.

Regarding understanding the Quran, no I didn't mean we should understand the Quran...I was asking you where the idea that you not allowed came from?

Regarding asking questions, an amil may not be a learned scholar. He may be the amil because he is the most qualified of those available for the area. If he doesn't know, ask and find persons who do.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#10

Unread post by Danish » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:26 pm

Salaams,

Please note that the answers to anajmi's rants and grunts and of MuslimFirst's salaat issues are detailed in the thread named Islam Today under the heading of The Arab Religion (the worst of worshippers of stone structures).

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:29 pm

Danish,

What you have posted over there is a continuation of your bull shit and nothing else. Simple quranic ayahs from HIS scripture have been stated which you cannot argue against. That is why people like you who are good at creating fitnah answer the questions raised in one thread through bullshit pasted on another thread.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#12

Unread post by Alislam » Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:30 pm

Brothers salaam

Danish, quran is not understood as per the interpretation of some joker whom you follow but by the actions of the prophet who explained clearly the meanings of salat, etc and even practised it.

was salaam

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#13

Unread post by Danish » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:01 pm

Salaam Alislam,

Muhammad never wrote nor explained anything but delivered GOD's Message as clearly and truthfully as IT IS, without any modifications and alterations to HIS MESSAGE - AL QURAN, in exactly and precisely the way it is revealed.

Islam is the absolute truth as per the Quran ONLY (clear, simple and detailed) while the Arabic Religion is mostly supported by heresies and insanity (ahadiths of Bukhari and enterprise), dogmas, idolworship and wishy-washy notions.

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#14

Unread post by JC » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:47 pm

Most of the Bohra traditions are Hindu traditions. They want to be SEEMED as different from other mainstream Muslims, even Shias (remember, once we use to wear BLACK, now it is not allowed) - so these guys took things from Hinduism and others and made them important then religion itself. TODAY, I even question and challagne religions (mind you ALL religions) - we donot need religions as of today.

Wadhana, chakhan, Ziafat, Padharna, wadhana of water when bride and groom enter and some of the stuff they do at mosques. Handfolding, Tasleem all that is non-sense.

Regards

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:28 pm

Danish,

You said ""Muhammad never wrote nor explained anything but delivered GOD's Message as clearly and truthfully as IT IS, without any modifications and alterations to HIS MESSAGE - AL QURAN, in exactly and precisely the way it is revealed.""

Can you tell me how you know that?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#16

Unread post by Danish » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:58 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
Danish,

You said ""Muhammad never wrote nor explained anything but delivered GOD's Message as clearly and truthfully as IT IS, without any modifications and alterations to HIS MESSAGE - AL QURAN, in exactly and precisely the way it is revealed.""

Can you tell me how you know that?
Via AL-QURAN - GOD'S MESSAGE, the ONLY BOOK for one's survival, spiritual guidance and Islamic jurisprudence.

"GOD's System" (deen) CANNOT be changed, modified or altered by any human, including the prophets/messengers. It is clear, simple and detailed as daylight for those who ponder, understand and possess intelligence and wisdom.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#17

Unread post by Danish » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:00 pm

Originally posted by JC:
Most of the Bohra traditions are Hindu traditions. They want to be SEEMED as different from other mainstream Muslims, even Shias (remember, once we use to wear BLACK, now it is not allowed) - so these guys took things from Hinduism and others and made them important then religion itself. TODAY, I even question and challagne religions (mind you ALL religions) - we donot need religions as of today.

Wadhana, chakhan, Ziafat, Padharna, wadhana of water when bride and groom enter and some of the stuff they do at mosques. Handfolding, Tasleem all that is non-sense.

Regards
Certainly and factually witnessed.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:34 am

Danish,

So when the quran says follow the messenger, what do you think it means?

like in ayahs

003.032
YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

004.013
YUSUFALI: Those are limits set by Allah: those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

or when Allah ask you to establish regular prayers, what do you think he means?

002.238
YUSUFALI: Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

002.239
YUSUFALI: If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).

What is the manner that he has taught you?

002.277
YUSUFALI: Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Again what does it mean by regular prayers?

004.043
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

Is Allah talking about wudhu in this ayah? if not then what is it?

004.101
YUSUFALI: When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

Here Allah is talking about shortening the prayers when travelling, shortening from what? what is the regular prayer that needs to be shortened and it is shortened to what?

Please enlighten us with your knowledge.

BB
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#19

Unread post by BB » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:05 am

Brother Hur

Regarding ziyafat, One of my cousins in kuwait also called Auqa mola for ziyafat and he was told to arrange a specific amount if he wants to give a full ziyafat i.e. Auqa mola having dinner also at his place and if he wants to have Kadam of auqa mola at his place then he could have got it at a high discounted rate.Other than that they arranged city wise ziyafat also where each and every individual had to contribute(Poor or rich,Single or Married)a specific amount and since the stay of aqua mola was already prolonged they merged it in two or three city together i.e. salumbar,sagwara,Banswara etc.so PLEASE tell me if its not an idea of collecting huge amount in the form of ziyafat.

One of my cousin became shiekh with a good discount because he had a good vaasta with Kothar.Giving a title of Shiekh with a sum of money is not as good as selling a degree?

Regarding bowing,as per the link prophet didn't allow Beidouns to bow down to him because they will start worshiping him that is what exactly i am trying to tell you that 80% of bohris are uneducated or semi educated and they still don't know that they must bow down to Allah S'ALLA and not to any Individual.

You didn't answer my Question regarding Kissing the hand and feet of a non mehram male by a female.Is it allowed in Islam?did women Kiss Prophet's hand and feet?if so please qoute me the aaya or Hadith.

Regarding lanaat on a believer is forbidden. A believer is not one who oppose the belief that a believer should hold.

Wrong a believer is one who says Shahada i.e."there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his Nabi'and no one has rights to say laanat on any believer even if he is commiting sin because he has to answer to allah on judgement day for all his wrong doings.

Regarding, wadhwanu rasm,
it is a hindu rites and rituals.I haven't seen any other muslim ummah doing this but yes i have seen Hindus doing this rasm.

Regarding zakat, 2.5% is an amounted developed by various organizations for quick accounting. It could be more or less than that amount.

Wrong,This is not developed by any organisation but its a fard on every Muslim to pay 40th part of his income.40th part i.e 100/40=2.5 %.and there is no concept of more or less in this case.

Secondly, you can pay to any poor person if there is not established collection organization of the leader of the community. Thus, for a bohra, you would pay the amil for Imam/Dai.

wrong,

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 9 Surah Taubah verse 60: Alms are for the poor and the needy and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the Cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

In other aayats of the Holy Quran, it mentions that zakat money can also be paid to near family members who are poor, the orphans, etc

In bohris it is a must to pay Zakaat to our organisation and if we don't do it we don't get "SAFAI NI CHITTHI"where as its clearly mentioned that its not a must to pay it to the organisation you can pay it to any needy poor.

Regarding your statement on those that haven't paid for 4-5 years...typically they are asked to pay a weight average sum for those years and then the current year. I find it hard to believe any amil will forgive the zakat...unless the person truly hasn't the means to pay in the first place.

They have done it in kuwait one of my freind was told to pay 152 kd for this year and his old dues will be forgiven and sole reason to do this was to collect atleast 152 kd from next year onwards because if they devide it in 5 years then next year they can't demand from him 152 kd because his current year zakaat would be just 150/5 i.e 30.4kd

Regarding asking questions, an amil may not be a learned scholar. He may be the amil because he is the most qualified of those available for the area. If he doesn't know, ask and find persons who do.

To tell you the fact our Aamil,Mullah,Sheikhs are so rude and unpolite that its not that easy to ask a question to them .

Regarding understanding the Quran, no I didn't mean we should understand the Quran...I was asking you where the idea that you not allowed came from?

YOU CAN CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL AAMIL AND IF HE SAYS ITS OK TO READ THE QURAN WITH MEANING THEN I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY PLEASE DO LET ME KNOW ABOUT IT IF ITS ALLOWED.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#20

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:38 pm

The Proof that the `Asr Prayer is the Middle Prayer

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=6433

Imam Ahmad reported that `Ali narrated that Allah's Messenger said during the battle of Al-Ahzab (the Confederates):

(They (the disbelievers) busied us from performing the Middle prayer, the `Ar prayer, may Allah fill their hearts and houses with fire.)

He performed the `Asr prayer between Maghrib and `Isha'.[1] Muslim and An-Nasa'i recorded this Hadith. In addition, the Two Shaykhs, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i [2] and several other collectors of the Sunan recorded this Hadith using different chains of narrators to `Ali. [3] The Hadith about the battle of Al-Ahzab, when the Mushriks prevented Allah's Messenger and his Companions from performing the `Asr prayer, has been narrated by several other Companions. We only mentioned the narrations that stated that the Middle prayer is the `Asr prayer. Furthermore, Muslim reported similar wordings for this Hadith from Ibn Mas`ud and Al-Bara' bin `Azib. [4]

In addition, Imam Ahmad reported that Samurah bin Jundub said that Allah's Messenger said:

(The Middle prayer is the `Asr prayer.) [5]

In another narration, Allah's Messenger mentioned:

(Guard strictly (five obligatory) As-Salawat (the prayers) especially the Middle Salah)

and stated that it is the `Asr prayer. [6] In another narration, Allah's Messenger said:

(It is the `Asr prayer.)

and Ibn Ja`far mentioned that the Prophet was then being asked about the Middle prayer. [7] At-Tirmidhi reported this Hadith and said, "Hasan, Sahih." [8] In addition, Abu Hatim bin Hibban reported in his Sahih that `Abdullah said that Allah's Messenger said:


(The Middle prayer is the `Asr prayer.) [9]

At-Tirmidhi reported that Ibn Mas`ud narrated that Allah's Messenger said:

(The `Asr prayer is the Middle prayer.)

At-Tirmidhi then stated that this Hadith is of a Hasan, Sahih type. [10] Muslim reported the Hadith in his Sahih and his wordings are:


(They (disbelievers) busied us from performing the Middle prayer, the `Asr prayer.) [11]

These texts emphasize the fact (that the `Asr prayer is the Middle prayer). What further proves this fact is that, in an authentic Hadith, Allah's Messenger emphasized the necessity of preserving the `Asr prayer, when he said, as Ibn `Umar narrated:


(Whoever misses the `Asr prayer will be like who has lost his family and money.) [12]

It is reported in the Sahih that Buraydah bin Al-Husayb said that the Prophet said:

(On a cloudy day, perform the (`Asr) prayer early, for whoever misses the `Asr prayer, will have his (good) deeds annulled.) [13]

[1] Ahmed 1:113
[2] Muslim 1:437, An-Nasai 6:303
[3] Fath Al-Bari 6:124, 7:467, 8:43, 11:197, Muslim 1:436, Abu Dawud 1:287, Tahfat Al-Ahwadhu 8:328, An-Nasai 1:236, Ahmed 1:137
[4] Muslin 1:437, 438
[5] Ahmed 5:22
[6] Ahmed 5:8
[7] Ahmed 5:7
[9] Tuhfat Al-Ahwadhi 8:328
[10] Ibn Hibban 3:121
[11] Tuhfat Al-Ahwadhi 8:329
[12] Muslim 1:437
[13] Muslim 1:436
[14] Ibn Majah 1:224
[15] Muslim 1:328

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#21

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:47 pm

.
Br. hur
ASAK

Sorry to post above without reference.

Above post was in response to your questioning of 2:238. Weather it refers to ASar prayer.
You said:
Regarding salat, I would ask MuslimFirst to read the arabic and check them. The ayat you use for asr...actually refers to zhuhr. The ayat you use for Isha doesn't refer to a specific time. There are only four times specified in the Quran: Dawn, Midday, Dusk, and Midnight (for salatul Layl). There are five prayers specified though via Quran and traditions.
Answer is in Tafsir Ibn Kathir as posted above

I will respond to your Isha question. Inshah-Allah

Wasalaam
.

hur
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#22

Unread post by hur » Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:27 pm

Dear BB,

Regarding ziyafat, I did not say what you described for your cousin wasn't requested...did you ask why it was requested...did you ask what the money was used for? If you did...please let us know (I do) for the benefit of other. Also please recall what the Imam and other Dai requested when they did ziyafat (this is not a new tradition). Please don't state your opinion but actual referenced info.

Regarding buying the title shiekh, this is given to those who want to be a shiekh by giving financially (money or property) versus the scholarly or pious methods of earning the title. Is it valid, yes according to the Prophet and Imams tradition.

Regarding sajad as'sukar, the bedouin wasn't allowed because, being ignorant, he would have prostrated in worship to the Prophet..which he didn't want to allow. As the link further explains in the same post, sajad as'sukar is prayer to Allah of thanks for a person (or thing). The disciples of Imams also practiced this tradition. (Apparently MuslimFirst didn't finish his discussion with Qiyam)

Regarding Kissing the hands and feet, the same link gives evidence of the allowance of this as well. Majority of sunni ulema support this. All shia ulema supports this because it was a traditions of the Imams.

Regarding zakat, I meant AMOUNT OF 2.5% is develop

hur
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#23

Unread post by hur » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:07 pm

Dear BB,

Regarding ziyafat, I did not say what you described for your cousin wasn't requested...did you ask why it was requested...did you ask what the money was used for? If you did...please let us know (I do) for the benefit of other. Also please recall what the Imam and other Dai requested when they did ziyafat (this is not a new tradition). Please don't state your opinion but actual referenced info.

Regarding buying the title shiekh, this is given to those who want to be a shiekh by giving financially (money or property) versus the scholarly or pious methods of earning the title. Is it valid, yes according to the Prophet and Imams tradition.

Regarding sajad as'sukar, the bedouin wasn't allowed because, being ignorant, he would have prostrated in worship to the Prophet..which he didn't want to allow. As the link further explains in the same post, sajad as'sukar is prayer to Allah of thanks for a person (or thing). The disciples of Imams also practiced this tradition. (Apparently MuslimFirst didn't finish his discussion with Qiyam)

Regarding Kissing the hands and feet, the same link gives evidence of the allowance of this as well. Majority of sunni ulema support this. All shia ulema supports this because it was a traditions of the Imams.

Regarding zakat, I meant AMOUNT OF 2.5% is developed by organizations not zakat itself. Paying a 40th applies to certain types of wealth at certain limits. Higher amounts are paid on natural resources, land, crops, etc. For example:

Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 9, Number 1567:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

Al-Harith al-A'war reported from Ali. Zuhayr said: I think, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: "Pay a fortieth. A dirham is payable on every forty, but you are not liable for payment until you have accumulated two hundred dirhams. When you have two hundred dirhams, five dirhams are payable, and that proportion is applicable to larger amounts.

Note ther is a minimum amount of wealth to be had before zakat is paid.

Allah states in the Quran who the zakat or sadaqa goes to not who collects it and distributes. The Prophet and Imams (via amils) collected zakat and distributed it. The kaliphas collected by force! They dictated, with the Quran guides, who and how the zakat was distributed. This was called the zakat ul Mal.

You should also note the sadaqa and zakat, unfortunately, are used interchangeablely...when they are very different. In the ayat you quoted for giving to near relatives..the word sadaqa is used not zakat. Sadaqa is not the same as zakat. Sadaqah is above and beyond the required zakat and is called alms.

Regarding your statement "To tell you the fact our Amil, Mullah, Sheikhs are so rude and unpolite that its not that easy to ask a question to them". Your thought that is the reason why you think ALL bohras are a certain way. You base your beliefs of an entire community and your smaller circle of associates. I have met very ignorant amils and shiekhs! I have also met very pious and knowlegeable amils and shieks! I had to search them out though.

Regarding understanding the Quran, BB now your switching topics here! You went from understanding the Quran to reading translations of the Quran. Two very different things. The Quranic ayats must be understood with history, traditions, exegsis, etc. A translation is not the Quran is majority of the time misrepresents it. Notice just the difference in the use of the word zakat and sadaqa. Translators use them interchangeablely....but they are applied and used very differently! Sadaqah is not required..but encouraged. Zakat is required. And you must read the arabic to clarify when zakat is reference. For example Surah Tauba 9:60 uses the word sadaqah, not zakah, for who should receive sadaqh.

Regarding laanat, a person who says the shahadah is a muslim (one who submits). This could be a person who says he's a muslim in name only. A person who is a person of faith and practice in beliefs is a mumin (believer). To a shiah, one who follows the Imam and his representative (Dai for bohras) is a mumin. One who opposes them and disrepects them and their views is a munafiq. A munafiq or fasiq can still be a muslim, but not considered a mumin. For example, Yazid ibn Muwaiya was a muslim...but very much a munafiq! You can say laanat (curse of Allah) on a declared munafiq..but not a mumin. I think you need to learn more about what you are disputing about and base it on something, before saying something is wrong or correct.

Regarding rasams, your wrote "it is a hindu rites and rituals.I haven't seen any other muslim ummah doing this but yes i have seen Hindus doing this rasm." Again I did clarify that many other communities do this same rasam in other forms across Asia and Africa. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't exist.

hur
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#24

Unread post by hur » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:08 pm

Sorry, please ignore the first of the two post.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#25

Unread post by Danish » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:37 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
Danish,

So when the quran says follow the messenger, what do you think it means?

like in ayahs

003.032
YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

004.013
YUSUFALI: Those are limits set by Allah: those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

or when Allah ask you to establish regular prayers, what do you think he means?

002.238
YUSUFALI: Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

002.239
YUSUFALI: If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).

What is the manner that he has taught you?

002.277
YUSUFALI: Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Again what does it mean by regular prayers?

004.043
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

Is Allah talking about wudhu in this ayah? if not then what is it?

004.101
YUSUFALI: When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

Here Allah is talking about shortening the prayers when travelling, shortening from what? what is the regular prayer that needs to be shortened and it is shortened to what?

Please enlighten us with your knowledge.
None of the verses above support "romancing the stones" and neither does the entire Quran. The facing, bowing, prostrating, kissing, circumambulations, running back and forth, throwing rocks and pebbles, etc., towards man-made stone structures (kaba, safah & marwah and the devilish stones) are pagan Zorastrian idolworshipping rituals which the Arab en-masse took over and continued. The innocent, illeterates and the insane blindly followed what there forefathers taught and adopted their ways of pagan idolworshipping beliefs upto this day.

The Quran condemns all such acts and whosoever continues to adapt such acts AFTER the message has been delivered, are the worst of disbelievers and hypocrites. Sadly enough, the Quran itself claims that the majority of mankind who believe in GOD, do not do so and among them, the Arabs are the worst of kind. Hence their disbelief in the Quran and their twisting effects continue to enrich their pagan ways. Such are the ones whose hearts and minds are sealed from understanding, eyes with which they cannot vision and ears with which they hesitate to listen.

And by the way, zakat has nothing to do with any "religious tithe". Sadaqa simply means charity/giving and zakat means purity/cleanliness/hygiene, as understood.

BB
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#26

Unread post by BB » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:43 am

Br.hur

Regarding ziyafat,?If you did...please let us know (I do) for the benefit of other.

No i did not ask them because i know its for the sole benifit for "KOTHARIS" and no one else....did you ask them who those others are?i am sure they meant Kotharis...and if they are other than kothar guys then would they kindly give us a list of the people benifited by such a HUGE amount collected during auqa moula's visit.come on hur WAKE UP.don't act like a "KABOOTAR".

Is it valid, yes according to the Prophet and Imams tradition.

You mean to say that prophets and imams were made by giving a huge amount?????i am really shocked!!!!could you kindly refer this to Quran or Hadith...

sajada a sukar is prayer to Allah of thanks for a person (or thing). The disciples of Imams also practiced this tradition.

Please tell our JANAB SAHEB to explain this to our mumeen bhai ane mumenaat behno because majority of them are commiting "SHIRK" by not knowing the fact.

garding Kissing the hands and feet, the same link gives evidence of the allowance of this as well. Majority of sunni ulema support this. All shia ulema supports this because it was a traditions of the Imams.

You have still not answered my question regarding females kissing feet and hands of Non mehram males .Is it allowed?

You should also note the sadaqa and zakat, unfortunately, are used interchangeablely...when they are very different. In the ayat you quoted for giving to near relatives..the word sadaqa is used not zakat. Sadaqa is not the same as zakat. Sadaqah is above and beyond the required zakat and is called alms.

its not for sadaqa its related to zakat.

Regarding understanding the Quran, BB now your switching topics here! You went from understanding the Quran to reading translations of the Quran. Two very different things.

I always meant to understand it whether in arabic or translation it makes no difference only problem is they don't want you to understand the Quran because the day we bohris would understand Quran we will fear only Allah s'llah and not kotharis and they don't want that.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hur
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#27

Unread post by hur » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:00 pm

Dear BB,

Regarding your comments on ziyafat, please explain how you can state something is a happening FOR SURE, without having any proof of what is or is not. And you call me a "kabotar"? You bought the lines of others who say they (the kothar) pocket this and that...yet have absolutely no defense for your opinion..other than other's opinions?!

Regarding buying the title of shiekh, yes it is valid...many of the companions of the Prophet and Imams were called "shiekh" because of the wealth they gave in the assistance of the proprogation of dawah.

Regarding sajad as'sukar, majority of bohras do know this...maybe not the traditions (including the janab sahib)..but the reason behind the act itself. This is why bohras do sujud before a grave of an awliyah...as a act of dua to Allah and respect to the person in the qabr.

Regarding kissing the hand or a non-mehram, no it is not allowed...but is the Dai considered non-mehram? This is the portion most forget. The Prophet/Imam/Dai is considered spirtually our parents. The Dai has said we are his children. So in this case he mehram to us.

Regarding sadaqah or zakat, the ayat uses the word sadaqah. I assume Allah and the Prophet know what the words sadaqah and zakat means more than us.

Regarding understanding the Quran, most of the masjids offer study sessions on Quran, Diam, and other subjects weekly/biweekly. Just reading a translation is discouraged because of the incorrectness and faulty interpretation of translations.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#28

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:10 pm

.

Prostration

Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said that the Messenger of Allah sent eighty men, including `Abdullah bin Mas`ud, Ja`far bin Abi Talib, `Abdullah bin `Urfutah, `Uthman bin Maz`un, Abu Musa, and others, to An-Najashi. The Quraysh sent `Amr bin Al-`As and `Umarah bin Al-Walid with a gift for An-Najashi. When they, `Amr and `Umarah, came to An-Najashi, they prostrated before him and stood to his right and left. `Amr and `Umarah said, "Some of our cousins migrated to your land; they have abandoned us and our religion.'' An-Najashi said, "Where are they'' They said, "They are in your land, so send for them,'' so An-Najashi summoned the Muslims. Ja`far said to the Muslims, "I will be your speaker today.'' So, the Muslims followed Ja`far and when he entered on the king he did not prostrate after greeting him. They said to Ja`far, "Why do you not prostrate before the king'' Ja`far said, "We only prostrate for Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored.'' They said, "Why'' He said, "Allah has sent a Messenger to us from Him, who ordered us not to prostrate to anyone except Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored. He also ordered to perform prayer and give charity.'' `Amr bin Al-`As said, "They contradict your creed about `Isa, son of Maryam.'' The king asked, "What do you say about `Isa and his mother Maryam'' Ja`far said, "We only say what Allah said about him, that he is Allah's Word, a soul created by Allah and sent down to the honorable virgin who was not touched by a man nor bearing children before.'' An-Najashi lifted a straw of wood and said, "O Ethiopians, monks and priests! By Allah, what they say about `Isa is no more than what we say about him, not even a difference that equals this straw. You are welcomed among us, and greetings to him who sent you. I bear witness that he is Allah's Messenger whom we read about in the Injil. He is the Prophet who `Isa, son of Maryam, foretold the good news about his advent. Live wherever you wish. By Allah, had I not been entrusted with the responsibilities of kingship, I would have gone to him, so that I could be honored by carrying his slippers and his water for ablution.'' The king ordered that the gifts of the idolaters be returned to them. `Abdullah bin Mas`ud soon returned and later on participated in the battle of Badr. He said that when the Prophet received the news that An-Najashi died, he invoked Allah to forgive him.

Ahmad 1:461 Tafseer Ibn Katheer Volume 9 Pages 619-620

Also at: http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=61&tid=53645

http://www.islamhelpline.com/view_answers.asp?QAID=4235

*************

Sunan of Abu Dawud

Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd

I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Apostle of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me, if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I would command women to prostrate themselves before their husbands, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah.

.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#29

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:16 pm

.

Standing in respect

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/englis ... waID=56399

1-Both Al-Bukhari and Muslim quoted `Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) as saying that when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was once complaining from an injury, and the Companions were with him, paying him a visit, the time for Prayer became due. So he led them in prayer while sitting but the people praying behind him were standing.

Upon finishing the prayer, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) told them that people praying behind Imam should stick to his posture while praying, if he prays in sitting they should sit, and vice versa. In explaining the reason behind this, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that people praying in standing while Imam is sitting resembles the blameworthy practice of Persians towards their kings, who would always sit down receiving people who'd stand for him in respect. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in fact forbade standing for one in respect while that person remains sitting.

.

BB
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Islamic and unislamic concepts

#30

Unread post by BB » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:34 am

posted 12-01-2004 12:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brother hur,

Regarding your comments on ziyafat, please explain how you can state something is a happening FOR SURE, without having any proof of what is or is not. And you call me a "kabotar"? You bought the lines of others who say they (the kothar) pocket this and that...yet have absolutely no defense for your opinion..other than other's opinions?!

its self explained you don't need proof for something like this and thats the reason why i told you not to act like a kabootar who keeps his eyes close thinking that cat won't be able to see him.Keep your eyes open and think how they can make so many Bunglows all over the world?how they can use the costliest clothes,vehicles?how they can maintain the extragous cost of living of more than 1000 kothars?Do they have thier own business?do you think any of them working outside and getting such a huge amount other than our society's income.Now please don't tell me that people are giving it to them with thier own will and i will tell you that its a BULLSHIT.I know hundreds of people being forced to pay .

Regarding buying the title of shiekh, yes it is valid...many of the companions of the Prophet and Imams were called "shiekh" because of the wealth they gave in the assistance of the proprogation of dawah.

I really want to get a link to any of the hadith which explains about this. I want to clear my doubt.can you please give me a reference to the hatdth.

Regarding sajad as'sukar, majority of bohras do know this...maybe not the traditions (including the janab sahib)..but the reason behind the act itself. This is why bohras do sujud before a grave of an awliyah...as a act of dua to Allah and respect to the person in the qabr.

I hope and wish that all the bohris know that when they make sujud infront of our moula they are doing sajada asukar to Allah so that they don't commit the grave sin of "SHIRK" which has no pardon in the sight of Allah.

Regarding kissing the hand or a non-mehram, no it is not allowed...but is the Dai considered non-mehram? This is the portion most forget. The Prophet/Imam/Dai is considered spirtually our parents. The Dai has said we are his children. So in this case he mehram to us.

Brother even step father is not allowed to kiss the hand of her daughter because he is NON MEHRAM at the same time not only Dai our females kiss the hands and feet of Shehzada,Janab Saheb etc.

Regarding sadaqah or zakat, the ayat uses the word sadaqah. I assume Allah and the Prophet know what the words sadaqah and zakat means more than us.

I really feel happy and more satisfied when i personally give this amount to a needy and poor person I hope our jamaat stop the practice of forcing people to come and pay them or else they will stop giving "SAFAI NI CHITTHI".

Regarding understanding the Quran, most of the masjids offer study sessions on Quran, Diam, and other subjects weekly/biweekly. Just reading a translation is discouraged because of the incorrectness and faulty interpretation of translations.

yeah I know but when you ask them questions they would say it has some hidden meaning and an ordinary person is not allowed to know.

ms