Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

[guy_sam2005]

admin,
why was my post taken off...i didnt abuse anyone in particular,it was just a general argumentive post...why do u just take off our posts and not those of your side though they are far more abusive..

[ATH]

ATH, I've referred to the links you posted and all I can say is it sounds like a commentary from a right wing person. The websites you quoted are not credible sources as I mentioned before, they are only as good as things published on malumaat.com or zeninfosys or mumineen.org
Here's some information from a credible source fully backed with medical information. You can try to cross check some medical websites that see things from a neutral point of view and find out for yourself if female genital mutilation is good or bad.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
http://www.emro.who.int/dsaf/dsa54.pdf

Human, I feel that the links that you have provided belong to people who have a leftist mentality, with no regards whatsoever for Allah and his creations. What you feel is right, may not necessarily be right and what you feel is wrong is not always wrong. If you are talking about neutrality, then you need to take into account other peoples point of view as well, without an "I am always correct" attitude. You can put across you opinion, but don't pass a judgement.

Secondly, the website links that I have provided belongs to Sunni Muslims. So, this proves that this practice of female circumcision is practised not only by bohras, as projected by you, but by the general muslim population as well.

As far as the question of things being posted on malumaat goes, every website is owned by someone or the other, who will always try to project their point of view of things. This particular website is owned by bohras, who have a different thinking than what Abde Syedna's have. And their point of view is very well projected on this website. We Abde Syedna's refer to this website as "not credible information". Do you agree to this? Do you accept the fact that this website belongs to a right winger or left winger and his views are biased?

... as an abde purchasing a website space and typing making up stuff like advantage of wearing topi, keeping dadhi and wearing saaya.

Can you prove, from credible sources ofcourse, that Prophet Mohammed did not have a beard, or that he did not wear a turban on his head or that he did not wear a long overcoat over his clothes, a piece of clothing which people in Saudi wear even today. If the Prophet did these things, then it is only correct that we follow his Sunnah. If you don't like these things, again I repeat, you have the right to voice your opinion. But don't make it sound like a judgement. If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't try to impress upon people that it is bad and that no one should follow it.

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Amen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[ozmujaheed]

If you don't like it, don't do it.

ATH is Bohraism rituals as simple advice as you put it ? Come on have some decency if you guys were so tolerant why would we have so many posts on this website !

[ATH]

ATH is Bohraism rituals as simple advice as you put it ?

The answer is Yes and No. For all those who follow the rituals religously, they are very simple. And for those who don't, it is very very difficult. Following the rules laid down by Islam, is in itself very very difficult. But if you have been doing them regularly, they are very simple. Agree?

Come on have some decency if you guys were so tolerant why would we have so many posts on this website !

Sorry, I just could not understand this statement of yours. What has decency got to do with tolerance and tolerance with posts on this website. Still I will try to answer you to the best of my ability.

I have mentioned in my earlier post, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And you can express it as it long as it is not abusive and offensive to any individual. This website is offering you a medium to express your opinion. Which you and many others are doing. No harm in that. The moment someone feels that the line is being crossed, you can expect tolerance level going down. I hope you agree with this.

And as far as tolerance goes: visit any masjid in India during prayer time (specially afternoon and evening). You will find a few people who are clean shaven, many many who either have a trimmed or french beard and many more who come wearing shirt / pant. Everyone is allowed despite there being a diktak that people should be appropriatly dressed for namaz. People come, offer prayers and leave. No one is ever stopped. Similar tolerance level is shown round the year, for any majlis or function. As long as you don't cross the limit.

P.S. - I am travelling out of Mumbai for some work. Please don't get agitated if I don't reply soon.

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Ameen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[SBM]

As long as you don't cross the limit.

And what are the limits and who defines the limits? Local Aamil-or some of his Goons?

[ATH]

And what are the limits and who defines the limits? Local Aamil-or some of his Goons?

Every person defines his own limit of tolerance. If I, an unknown person to you, were to abuse you, probably you will react in a different manner compared to if your friend or brother abused you. You would surely be more tolerant towards them.

P.S. - I am travelling out of Mumbai for some work. Please don't get agitated if I don't reply soon.

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Ameen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[ozmujaheed]

Can someone from India confirm ATH's statement on tolerance ?

ATH does this apply to collection of funds ?

[ATH]

ATH does this apply to collection of funds ?

My personal experience says there is tolerance. A little give and take is there. And as long as you are paying your Zakat as per your financial status, there is no issue at all. I have even seen people who sit in the Amil's office and bargain - sometimes for upto an hour. But then there is no offence or ill feeling carried forward. Not agreeing with someone's elses point of view does not mean becoming a rebel. You can always have healthy disagreements.

Secondly, for any voluntary contribution, it is your personal choice whether you want to pay or not. No compulsion is used. But if you have committed money towards a certain project and then if you don't pay on time, you will be asked to pay up. And in some cases, a stern voice may have to be used. It is the same thing as - if some of your client has promised to pay you on a certain date, and if they miss the deadline, what would be your position? Since, based on their payment, you may have also committed some payments. Will you not ask your client to pay up?

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Ameen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[master.b00t]

do baras ka khel baaki he.

[Conscíous]

Just came from the bohra temple. It was heart breaking to see some of the small children wound be victims of this satanic ritual and there was nothing I could do

I really feel sorry for those poor soul's .. who are going to miss out on one of the greatest pleasure and joy, Allah had given them.

[Al Zulfiqar]

this topic has a funny way of popping up at regular intervals on this site and other forums. i often wonder at the motivation behind whoever is out to reinstate interest in this subject.

either the motivation is to titillate or get into some sort of a proxy war, whereby opponents of the practice of FGM hurl it at die-hard islamophobes as a method of hurling abuse or getting even, or its started by someone totally ignorant of what the whole thing is about and wants to learn more.

let us analyse this whole subject dispassionately first from the angle of science and then come to islam.

there are several different types of procedures which can be carried out as part of female genital circumcision.

1. clitoral hood reduction or clitoroplexy: this usually involves a highly delicate and precise partial reduction of the clitoral hood, a thick prepuce of skin which covers and affords protection to the extremely sensitive organ which is called the clitoris, sitting at the top junction of the labia minora and being an inherent part of these external genitalia. this surgery affords enhanced sexual pleasure and feeling of well-being to its recipient, improves genital health as it reduces accumulation of secretions and resultant bacterial growth and odor. it also leads to better hygeine and maintenance of the same.
2. clitorodectomy, also known as clitorectomy: this could mean partial or total removal of the clitoris in childhood and necessarily, partial removal of the labia minora or labioplasty. this type of procedure almost always will never be performed by a licensed professional as it would be against the principles of medicine and surgery, unless warranted by some mitigated crcumstances, which is very rare. such a procedure will not only remove much of the delicate and sensitive nerve receptors that make sex enjoyable for the female and allow her normal human responses, but will in fact cause her pain and accompanying psychological trauma, distress and revulsion from a normal sexual act. most women will learn over time to disguise these negative feelings for sake of marital bliss and harmony, but are in fact being cruelly deprived of their god-given rights to enjoy that which Allah has guaranteed them.
3. FGM or female genital mutilation: this is procedure no.2 carried out in the extreme, i.e. total excision and removal of the clitoris, almost the entire labia minora, and sometimes the addition of internal suturing to reduce the size of the vaginal opening, enough to allow only the passage of menstrual fluids. this is practised by many african tribes in the sudan, somalia, central and west africa and up until recently in north africa as well. this would often lead to serious health complications, severe internal and external bleeding, disfigurement and crippling infections with life-long disabilities or death as the result. a female who has undergone this will no doubt suffer in silence, but develop feelings of hatred and disgust towards men, society and the sex act. ayan hirsi ali is a victim of such cruelty and its only the opportunity of freedom in the west which has given her the courage to speak out.
4. Vaginoplasty: the recent modern craze of 'enhancing' the natural appearance of female genitalia, by a combination of labiaplasty, slight clitoral hood reduction and plastic surgery to balance and achieve a more symmetrical look in length, size and color of external genitalia. a lot of this is man-made hysteria whipped up by commercial clinics and unscrupulous doctors who specialise in corrective surgery, but is purely a matter of choice and affordability.

what is being practised by bohras is procedure 2 in various degrees, depending on where they live and who is carrying it out. as most of the traditional old women practioners of this procedure in our community are dying and gone, we have bohra lady doctors surreptitiously practising this, who would be carrying out partial clitorodectomy and labiaplasty. from most of my experiences and knowledge, most bohra women from the previous generation were being subjected to an almost 75% clitorodectomy and labial reduction. the newer generation perhaps upto 50-65%, i guess. many liberal bohra parents are opting not to subject their daughters to this.

now finally coming to islam. how can a religion which has throughout the quran and in the life and conduct of its prophet, enjoined equality betwen men and women in terms of piety, endeavour, modesty, work, rewards, punishment, justice, and all the other human values, inflict cruelty on one gender for the selfish interests of the other? the reasons why male circumcision is prescribed in islam is well-known. if health, hygeine and marital pleasure are prescribed for the male, would the females be prescribed its opposite? pain, cruelty and slavery? deprivation of all that is her right in beauty and delight by Allah? just so that she remain subservient and docile and open to abuse by male chauvinists as an object of sadistic pleasure? so she can remain captive and not experience the pleasures and therefore not ask for her rights in marriage?

who else but an insecure male chauvinist, unable to perform or satisfy his wife fully, who wishes to subjugate her as chattel and thus prop up his fragile male ego, who has long-entrenched misogynistic views, would come up with such barbaric cruelty which is being practised in the name of islam? this is another shameless attempt to malign islam by backward and pagan societies who wish to practise those very tribal customs which islam came to remove.

if i remember correctly, asgharali engineer in his book, "the rights of women in islam", in fact correctly mentions that islam and the prophet were courageous enough to actually prescribe partial removal of the clitoral hood, to ENHANCE a woman's sexual experience, not suppress it or extinguish it, and made it mandatory on a man to satisfy his wife as much as he sought his own. in fact, a woman who was denied her conjugal rights could ask for a divorce.

the curious fact in these debates is that its 99.9% ignorant men who rush in like fools to comment. the protagonists with the most right to comment on what has been done to them, are silent or do not participate. another shining example of male chauvinism. bohras who tout themselves as the most modern and liberal of all muslims, have an ancient and totally backward leader who prefers to remain silent or be complicit in this perverted tribal custom which has no basis in islam.

[guy_sam2005]

do baras ka khel baaki he.

uske baad?

[guy_sam2005]

Just came from the bohra temple. It was heart breaking to see some of the small children wound be victims of this satanic ritual and there was nothing I could do

I really feel sorry for those poor soul's .. who are going to miss out on one of the greatest pleasure and joy, Allah had given them.

feel sorry for yourself..allah has not sent you as his rasool to worry about us,we can very well take care of ourselves and that of our children,,,

[ozmujaheed]

ATH is reincarnated Hades fatema or survivor of Kothar frontline force

Point blanc to the topic answer this regardless of it merits or demerits

Is Female circumcision encouraged within ladies and is it sanctioned by the Kothar establishment ? Yes/NO

If you or community found out a girl has not is she frowned upon ? Yes/No

If your diai found out that a girl has not circumcised will he be unhappy ? Yes/No

In countries where the law bans it will you encourage people to continue and break the law or publicly discourage ?

[master.b00t]

sunnat ka sex se koi sambandh nahin he, sex ka sambandh hamare body ke andar ke aura-body se he jo shukshm shareer ke naam se bhi jana jata he. sunnat ka kaaran vaigyanik he. jannendriya ke rogo se bachne ke liye sunnat upayogi he. vastutah hamari sabhi kaam vaasana aura-body se aati he, agar aura-body pratiti janak kaam vaasana me leen ho to sunnat karane wale ko bhi utna hi anubhav hoga jitna bina sunnat wale ko hota he. haqiqat me hamara man Raaja he aur hamara is chamadi ka shareer Raani he, Raaja( aura-body (man) agar order kare to Raani ( sthul shareer-chamdi ka shareer) ko uske niche, uske mutabik, react karna hoga. is liye jab bhi hum kaamuk hote he to kaam vaasana pehle hamare man se aati he aur last me shareer se pragat hoti he.

[guy_sam2005]

aap khena kya chahte hai boot saab,
aurto ko katana chaiye ya nahi?

[master.b00t]

mere khayaal se female ki sunnat agar jannendriya ke rogo ke liye ho to karani chahiye
,lekin agar sunnat ka aim sex ka kum hona ho, to mere hisaab se koi fark nahi padega. agar do quom, ya do cast ke bich sexuality ka koi fark hota he to wo fark sunnat ka nahi he, wo fark unki alag alag mansik sthitiyo ka he, wo fark unki alag alag manasik banavat ka he.

[Conscíous]

feel sorry for yourself..

Why ??

allah has not sent you as his rasool to worry about us,,,

One does not have to be a prophet to care for humanity..

we can very well take care of ourselves and that of our children,,,

We can see that very well

[Conscíous]

I can't even Imagen, what kind of sadistic and painfully sex life the women of Abde-syedna cult have . No "Normal" female, in their right mind would see such undesirable men with the worst manners in there wildest fantasy or would want to get married too.

But the faith of the poor girls in the Abde-syedna cult, are sealed at a very young age ...,No sexually desire, no pleasure, no passion, no joy, no satisfaction

I'm sure they develop some kind of mental illness that they can't satisfies normal men. ... so they have no choice and get married with their pathetic looking cult men .

[guy_sam2005]

boom,
good post.strong words of fiction...and hatred ofcourse................

[master.b00t]

Not agree with boom about abde women not feel natural sex life.

[Conscíous]

boom,
good post.strong words of fiction...and hatred ofcourse................

The book is fiction based on fact. But I now feel that I inadvertently got very close to a secret truth.
-Leslie Watkins

[sallu_baba]

Hi,
I know I am new to this site but this is something that has caused me some concern as well. It would be really helpful to get the actual womens perspective on it as such issues are kep highly under wraps in the community.
Thanks

[Human]

Human, I feel that the links that you have provided belong to people who have a leftist mentality,

What do you mean leftist mentality? The website references and articles are from WHO: World Health Organisation. I'm very surprised for you to believe that they are not neutral, it can't get any more neutral than these organisations. Give me a review or a take from a neutral person or organistaion. I'm pretty sure you won't find it. WHO gives guidelines based on health research and scientific/medical tests and not necessarily anti-muslim stuff.

with no regards whatsoever for Allah and his creations.

You call WHO leftist and now you mention with no regards to allah and his creations. The problem is, you're a right winger. And that is why you see a neutral opinion as leftist mentality. Do you want leftist mentality? Here goes: "If Allah/God wanted humans circumcised (as in both male and female), why did he create them with the extra bit of skin in the first place?". Now a leftist would see from that angle and not worry about if its good or bad for their health.

What you feel is right, may not necessarily be right and what you feel is wrong is not always wrong. If you are talking about neutrality, then you need to take into account other peoples point of view as well, without an "I am always correct" attitude. You can put across you opinion, but don't pass a judgement.

You are correct. I'm not here to pass judgements. I'm here on this topic trying to promote what has been proven scientifically/medically. However blind beliefs and superstitions have gotten the better of all the blind people, even the educated masses. Its a pity to see this, very sad indeed. In today's world, humanity/'insaaniyat' is of no importance which is very sad and selfish. Kids are subjected to a life of mental distress,pain and suffering which they didn't choose, nor they deserved. Its such a pity.

Secondly, the website links that I have provided belongs to Sunni Muslims. So, this proves that this practice of female circumcision is practised not only by bohras, as projected by you, but by the general muslim population as well.

Okay. Let me clarify this. I'm against this practice of female genital mutilation. Be it bohras, sunnis or african tribes. It is a bad thing to do. Since I'm on a dawoodi bohra forum, I speak keeping dawoodi bohras at the centre of my talk.

As far as the question of things being posted on malumaat goes, every website is owned by someone or the other, who will always try to project their point of view of things. This particular website is owned by bohras, who have a different thinking than what Abde Syedna's have. And their point of view is very well projected on this website. We Abde Syedna's refer to this website as "not credible information". Do you agree to this? Do you accept the fact that this website belongs to a right winger or left winger and his views are biased?

ATH, please do not try to beat around the bush. Accept that you're cornered and you have no arguements against articles provided by me. Let me tell you something about credible information. Credible information is the one that comes from the source FIRSTHAND or via an author in which case the credit is to be given to the original source by referencing/bibliography. The article of WHO I gave you is a referenced article and thus is credible. This website on the other hand gives hardcore facts and firsthand experiences. Since you're new to the forum, you might not have read some posts by S.Insaf, Al Zulfiqar, Smart, Accountability etc. They are all firsthand sources of information. They have written what they have experienced. This is all considered credible information.

Can you prove, from credible sources ofcourse, that Prophet Mohammed did not have a beard, or that he did not wear a turban on his head or that he did not wear a long overcoat over his clothes, a piece of clothing which people in Saudi wear even today. If the Prophet did these things, then it is only correct that we follow his Sunnah.

Let me start by telling you first that I'm a dawoodi bohra and not a sunni as you're making out. Being a dawoodi bohra, I know little about prophet mohammed. But I do know heaps about Moula and Imam Husain and his shahadat (which I think is glorified, the 12 ragras and all that). So to answer your question, I can't prove anything about Prophet Mohammed either way; dadhi or not, turban or not, overcoat or not etc. Prove to me from credible sources that Prophet Mohammed kept a beard, wore knitted topi with golden kasab, wore kurta-izar and SAAYA and prayed only farz namaaz and skipped sunnat namaaz. Can you prove this?

If you don't like these things, again I repeat, you have the right to voice your opinion. But don't make it sound like a judgement. If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't try to impress upon people that it is bad and that no one should follow it.

ATH, its not that I don't like these things or I'm against it. I just need the reasoning behind it. I asked these questions and all I got was death stares and insult asking me if I didn't have faith in whatever the dai said. First I did, but gradually my faith started fading. The questions got the better of me and it was impossible to find answers. Once again, I'm not passing judgements. I'm only promoting TRUE and FACTUAL information. And it sounds like you really don't get it, do you? You suggest I'm trying to impress people here? I don't even know how you got that thought of impressing people. Wonder if everyone's purpose here is to impress everyone and become a rockstar. Its not called impressing, its called fighting against the lies and you need to have courage to stand up which clearly you don't.

[Human]

this topic has a funny way of popping up at regular intervals on this site and other forums. i often wonder at the motivation behind whoever is out to reinstate interest in this subject.

either the motivation is to titillate or get into some sort of a proxy war, whereby opponents of the practice of FGM hurl it at die-hard islamophobes as a method of hurling abuse or getting even, or its started by someone totally ignorant of what the whole thing is about and wants to learn more.

Al Zulfiqar,
I am responsible for bringing up this discussion forward in recent weeks. It popped up because it was mentioned in an article by a Karachi author that Mr. S Insaf posted on another thread. The article said that bohri women and dull and boring because of going through FGM. Clearly the author was criticising bohra community and their practices, but however I was shocked to find that this practice is prevelant in dawoodi bohra community. I know all the medical details about this practice but did not know that it is so common in DB community. I was thus outraged. There is no other motivation behind this except letting people know that it is considered as a bad practice in the world of medicine and does a lot of harm and no good. Whatever advantages are conjured up are just made up things like, for example if you ampute your fingers, you won't have a chance of getting nail infections.(sounds stupid, yes I know. Sounds the same to me when people conjure of benefits of FGM)

[Conscíous]

for example if you ampute your fingers, you won't have a chance of getting nail infections.(sounds stupid, yes I know. Sounds the same to me when people conjure of benefits of FGM)

Hahahaaaa LMAO.. ^^

[ozmujaheed]

Some time back I wrote and rallied that lets walk the talk rather than just blogging. I do not want to brag but see how the get out there approach is showing results and the debate it creates. I now have a opposition MP and people in Government supporting the cause.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/wellbei ... 4#comments

And my comment publicised.

I am a Muslim born in an Indian Bohra sect that encourages these acts by influencing women and mothers around the community obligations of keeping alive this draconian practise.

I had written to Pru sometime back about the practises and it is good that I read today she has taken a stand against it and acknowledged my message.
The worry remains that this is such a private issue that it will be difficult to police since the community members take young girls overseas when they are as young as 5-9 yrs to get the cut done. The difficulty becomes when the girls get older, very rarely you would expect them to report their parents to authorities and hence the rituals flourish unnoticed.

However the government can start publicising the issues and the ramifications so over a long time the practise gets extinct as the kids get older and have their own daughters who they can avoid this. I in my case convinced my wife to ignore the practise by educating her on the medical aspects and fortunately my daughter was spared the cut.
Kaizar | Melbourne - May 28, 2010, 4:12PM

I have publicised other actions which are in progress so watch this space. That is my personal ijtihad.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=8&t=4803

For the abdes like Rania, aqs and some vacillating so called orthos like anajmi, I am not distracted by your commentary..my mission is on. And foolishly the Kotahr underestimates my resolve , reach and am yet to get an contact through my linked email bohradeen@gmail.com to review and resolve our issues internally all I get is abuse as if words will push me back.

[anajmi]

Please do not merge different discussions into one to display your holier than thou attitude when you are nothing but a WAL (white ass licker). I have no problems with the work you might do to fight FGM.

[ozmujaheed]

I think most sane people on this site have learned to live with ranting from some few...thats the cost and wastage within free speech as long as overall we make gains. Hey better sycophancy that gets my issue in a spotlight where something can be done than dead rubber !

[anajmi]

That is precisely what you would expect a sycophant to say. As long as it tastes good, why not lick it?