Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

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seeker110
Posts: 1718
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#121

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:09 pm

I will go out on a limb and tell you about my personal experience in this matter.In Pakistan during my early teen years none of the bohra boys got lucky with girls.Some did go on bases but no home runs.In USA it was easy to make runs if one wanted.So my thinking was that it was due to FMG.Then during spring break I went to Mexico City.I was pleasantly surprised that the decent girls would not put out.They would go places with us but would not come to our room.So it was always waiting in the hotel lobby.Always more then 3,4 girls with the two of us gringos.It was hand shaking but no holding hands.This was the moment I realized the girls were behaving like Desi girls.Hence the theory of FMG is destroyed.Its just a myth with no scientific value.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#122

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:33 pm

Decent girls can recognize predators, FGM or no FGM.



SBM
Posts: 6170
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#123

Unread post by SBM » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:11 am

Stealth Revolution
Muslim women of Mumbai’s Bohra community are secretly joining hands to slough off an age-old tradition of female genital mutilation

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... revolution
or
http://tinyurl.com/6unxrsq



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#124

Unread post by Adam » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:15 pm

Salaam
This topic has been misunderstood by most who don't have much knowledge on the Dawoodi Bohra core beliefs and practices, and in the same way of Islam.
As mentioned by me many times, i'm not here to preach, but to clarify when TRUE Dawoodi Bohra beliefs are misunderstood or deliberately twisted & distorted.
For those who DON'T consider themselves DBs or DON'T share the love for Ahlul Bayt AS and Fatimi Ismaili AS beliefs, and DON'T follow their teachings, please ignore this comment, it isn't addressed to you.

1. FEMALE CIRCUMCISION is NOT a law passed by
"Burhanuddin's regime ("Thug Kotharis")- they imposing ridiculous "fatwas"
(as claimed by GUEST), rather, it is a "fatwa", that has history and deep roots in Islamic, Fatimi, Ismaili, Dawoodi Bohra Beliefs, just like Male circumcision

The Book Daim ul Islam by Syedna Qadi Noman RA, which is considered an authentic source for the DAWOODI BOHRAS (if you're still not a DB believer, you've read to far already) for Hadeeth and Kalaam of Rasulullah SAW and Ahlul Bayt AS, in regard to Fatimi Law (fiqh). (Brother ATH cited 3 websites which were considered un authentic by HUMAN, so I decided to give a better citation, IF he in fact claims to be a DB.)

In this book, in the Chapter of ذكر التنظف و الطهارة -The Chapter of Cleanliness and TAHARAT.. There is a saying from Mowlana ALI AS ordering women to perform the act of "KHAFZ" (female circumcision) on their daughters and how to perform it.
And another quote from Mowala ALI AS stating the age of the daughter being 7 years old.


Thus, I conclude:
FEMALE CIRCUMCISION, isn't a "new" concept.
FEMALE CIRCUMCISION is an Islamic concept, under the guidance of Mowlana Ali AS and Ahlul Bayt AS, and there are details for it. As stated in Daim ul Islam and other Fatimi Law books.
We Dawoodi Bohra s follow the orders of the Imams AS, in this case Imam ALI AS, which is without a doubt a following of Rasulullah SAW.

If you are not a Dawoodi Bohra, please state so.
If you claim to be one, here are the authentic facts. We DAWOODI BOHRAS follow our Imams AS and Duaat RA, as they know better what is best for us.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#125

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:03 pm

We DAWOODI BOHRAS follow our Imams AS and Duaat RA, as they know better what is best for us.
No they don't. Consider what happened a few years ago in Bombay when your Dai uttered lanaat on the first 3 khalifas. DAWOODI BOHRAS got hammered and then your Dai had to apologize for his words. Had he known what was best for you, he wouldn'tve created the problem in the first place. Since, then ofcourse he has learned his lesson. But then, aren't we all similarly shortsighted?



porus
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#126

Unread post by porus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:09 pm

Adam wrote:
In this book (Daim ul Islam), in the Chapter of ذكر التنظف و الطهارة -The Chapter of Cleanliness and TAHARAT.. There is a saying from Mowlana ALI AS ordering women to perform the act of "KHAFZ" (female circumcision) on their daughters and how to perform it.
The actual words, attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, are:

يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن

"O womenfolk, if you cut (khafD) your daughters, then leave a part of it. For that would be more delightful and exciting for their husbands."
Adam wrote:
And another quote from Mowala ALI AS stating the age of the daughter being 7 years old.
The actual words, attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, are:

أسرعوا بختان أولادكم فإنه أطهر لهم و قال لا تخفض الجارية قبل أن تبلغ سبع سنين

"Speed up circumcision of your children for it is purer for them and do not cut (khafD) the girl before she is seven years old."



think
Posts: 1783
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

#127

Unread post by think » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:31 pm

It’s sad that all sexual experiences are seen as promiscuity, and that promiscuity has a gender.
19 Mar 2010 | 28 January 2012
Stealth Revolution
Muslim women of Mumbai’s Bohra community are secretly joining hands to slough off an age-old tradition of female genital mutilation
BY Shubhangi Swarup

When women ask the lady I am interviewing, a 53-year-old Bohri, if she has had her three daughters circumcised, she almost always nods. For, she had promised her mother-in-law that she would keep their non-circumcision secret. Like many other Bohri women of her generation, she was about to turn seven when she herself underwent ‘khatna’—the excision of her clitoris. “I couldn’t walk. I had to walk with my feet apart for many days.” No one discussed what had happened or why it did. She could walk properly again only by the time her summer holidays ended.

She got married at 18. By 19, she was the mother of a baby girl and clear that her little one would be spared the trauma. “After what I went through, I didn’t want my kids to go through it.” Her aunt had shown her a Reader’s Digest article on female genital mutilation, and she’d been shocked to read what it was all about. “It is done to suppress sexual desire,” she says, still appalled by its unfairness, “I read that the system originated in Africa, where the men went on war. Since the clitoris is the [arousal causing] part, it was cut off to control the women.”
While the primitive tribal practice has never had Islamic sanction, unlike male circumcision which is routine, it has lasted in several African and other sub-cultures. In the West, clitoridectomy used to be done by doctors about a hundred years ago (see ‘Caught in the Act’ on page 34). Today, in India, it is peculiar to Dawoodi Bohras, a sub-sect of Shia Muslims.
When the 53-year-old Bohri’s eldest daughter was old enough for khatna, she showed her husband the RD article. He asked her to do what she deemed best for the girl. But living in a joint family, there was pressure from her in-laws, generations of them. She showed the article to her mother-in-law, who was also won over to the cause. But she was helpless in front of her grandmother-in-law, an 85-year-old who lived with all of them. “I told her to leave it to me.” Since then, she has had to lie about having had it done. Asked in social gatherings if her daughters have had their naak vindhayu (nose pierced: community code for female genital mutilation), she simply says ‘yes’. So do her daughters, who have been explained the strange circumstances that force them to lie. “From the article, I learnt that it was unscientific,” says the protective mother, “And if you suppress sexual desire, how can you please your husband? You won’t even desire sex.”
Dawoodi Bohras are a small, closely networked community, and she fears that letting out the truth would be seen as an act of rebellion and risk having the family shunned by the rest. But the whisper campaign against the practice is getting louder, aided by online activism, and it may not be long before the community has to address it squarely and openly.
+++
The fear of ostracism is also what stops ‘Tasleem’, a Bohri woman in her forties, from divulging her real name. On 14 October 2011, she initiated an online petition at change.org, asking the community’s religious leader, HH Syedna, to ban khatna among girls. She also posted him a large cut-out of a blade, with an image of a girl crying during circumcision. There was no response from him.
By 10 January 2012, the petition had got only around 1,000 signatures—that too, mostly from outsiders. But the petition did succeed in generating media
coverage, including an article that the 53-year-old Bohri’s friend brought along to a menij, a community gathering of friends. The friend, the grandmother of a 7-year-old girl, showed her the article featuring Tasleem’s campaign, and asked her for her opinion. She told her the truth. Her friend, agreeing wholeheartedly, kept the article away to show her granddaughter’s mother. The 53-year-old does not know whether the child finally had to undergo khatna or not. It is not a question easily asked, such is the silence around it. Any opponent of the practice within the community can be seen as “someone who doesn’t follow the religion”, she says, referring to a peculiar interpretation of it that few dare debunk.
On her part, Tasleem is keen that more such articles appear in the Gujarati, Hindi and Marathi media in the run-up to children’s summer holidays, which is when most clitoridectomies take place. The practice remains widespread, she says. By her estimate, 90 per cent of all Bohri women have undergone it, though she herself has not, thanks to a progressive mother who fought off the pressure of her in-laws. There is no way to corroborate Tasleem’s figure; a Bohra executive in Mumbai calls it a “gross exaggeration”, but he adds that it is worth fighting against even if it is only 9 per cent.
The online battle that Tasleem is waging has involved joining Bohra discussion groups, posting links and getting across to people who have daughters. “The problem is most unmarried Bohra men do not know about this ritual,” she says, “Some guys argue that it doesn’t happen. Then they find out it does, and that itself starts a discussion.”
The anonymity of online activism helps her conduct discreet research on the issue. She has learnt, for example, that there are varying degrees of cuts that are made. Unlike the female genital mutilation practised in Africa, only the clitoris is supposed to be excised in India. But some make do with a scrape. Still, khatna can lead to lifelong complications in menstruation or severe urinary tract infections, apart from permanent loss of libido. Although khatna is traditionally done with a blade at home by a community elder, some parents also approach doctors to do it surgically in hospitals. A surgeon in Mumbai’s Saifee Hospital, set up by the Syedna himself, confirms that she receives such requests.
+++
Pain is all that 25-year-old Aarefa Johari recalls of her Khatna. “I remember how painful urinating was,” says she. Only after reading about it much later as an adult did she realise that pain was not all she’s had to suffer. She still recoils from the discovery of its intended purpose. “How can you just cut off a child’s organ?” she asks. When upholders of the practice point out that it isn’t as barbaric here as it is in Africa, she gets even more angry. “How can you do it without my consent?” she retorts. “How can you cut off my sexual organ to control my sexuality?”
For many years, Aarefa argued about it with her mother, who had assumed that since it is an age-old tradition, there must be a good reason for it. She had prayed all the while, the mother recalls, as she sat in the room watching her two daughters’ khatna, and was relieved to have them urinate normally after it. “It was just scraping,” she pacifies her daughter now. “The fear you went through was greater than the physical trauma.”
Over the past few years, Aarefa has grown increasingly critical of her community. It considers itself progressive, but really isn’t, in her opinion. “No amount of lace or ribbon can make your rida (Bohri burkha) look attractive,” she scoffs, “It is a penguin suit you wear to hide yourself.” To her mind, it is ludicrous that Bohras should see themselves as superior, often sneering at other adherents of Islam as ‘Muslims’. “And what does that make them?” she wonders.
Having left the fold, Aarefa does not fear ex-communication. A journalist with Hindustan Times, she is actively highlighting the need for a ban through articles and online media. Meanwhile, her mother isn’t entirely convinced that khatna is barbaric. “Some people say it reduces the chances of cervical cancer, just like male circumcision reduces the chance of cancer among men.” If you tell her that there is no scientific basis to such claims, she responds with, “If no one has conducted a study on it yet, how can you dismiss it?”
While Aarefa’s mother is ready to give the custom the benefit of doubt, the palpable fear of ostracism keeps the campaign in the shadows. The Bohra religious establishment has a record of using excommunication as a tool to retain its grip. It implies a complete social and financial boycott, which, in a tightly knit business community, could prove crippling. “As I grow older, the fear of excommunication becomes more real,” says Munira, a 34-year-old mother, “You get banned from the weddings and social functions of your loved ones. It is horrible. I want to be part of the community for the sake of my family.”
Asghar Ali Engineer, a leader of a reform movement called the Progressive Dawoodi Bohras, was cast out for taking up issues of authoritarianism and corruption in the religious establishment. “I have been fighting for reform for 30 years,” he says, “and it is a complex thing.” Although he has spoken out against female genital mutilation, his movement hasn’t yet taken the issue up in its charter of reforms. “We can’t even get support on secular issues like human rights and corruption,” he says, “a religiously sensitive issue like khatna will isolate us further.”
If Engineer views the Syedna’s unquestioned authority as a problem, Tasleem sees in it an opportunity. “He is the ‘Voice of God’ to Bohras,” she says, “This is one case where a single individual can make a difference instantly and completely.” But the Syedna has had nothing to say on the issue so far, and shows no sign of giving in to the appeals of a handful.
The silence remains, but its nature has begun to change. Some women are using the secrecy around khatna to shield their daughters and granddaughters from it. More importantly, they are using the anonymity of the internet to mobilise the groundswell of Bohra opinion needed to excise the practice once and for all. It’s an idea whose time has come.



Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#128

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:54 pm

it is not only irritating to see the depth of ignorance demonstrated by know-it-all types on this forum, it is a dangerous practice as this same ignorance has resulted in severe cruelty against women for centuries in the name of islam and its founding fathers.

i had posted a long and detailed commentary on this subject, please refer to it on the previous page, outlining the various types of procedures carried out on females in the name of 'circumcision'

1. not all these procedures amount to genital 'mutilation'

2. the word 'khatna' for males and 'khafz' for females do not have the same meaning nor are they similar procedures implying 'cutting'

3. what is agreed though is that both share the same sound, logical and scientific reasons for their practice. primary among them is health, secondly well-being and thirdly, but no less important, is enhancement of sexual pleasure which is as much a god given gift and right of females, as it is of males.

4. now let us examine what 'khafz' means. it has many meanings (connotations) in arabic, ranging from protector, or protection, lowering the wing, and many others depending on the context. like many words in a particular language, it defies exact translation and has to be understood only in its overall intent, which in this case is implied to mean (in my firm opinion) that it should 'protect' a woman's natural desires and enhance her god-given pleasures.

"Maulana Ali (a.s) says: -The Khafz of a daughter should not be done before she is 7 years of age. While doing the khafz the entire skin (clitoral) is not to be removed. A bit should be kept as it enhances her colour and complexion and endears her to her husband."

what can be clearly understood from ali's intstructions is this: the clitoral hood - skin covering the clitoris - is to be removed partially, not that the clitoris itself is to be removed completely or partially or that any part of the labia minora are to be removed etc. now please go back and read my previous posting on page1 of this thread again for detailed descriptions of the various types of genital procedures carried out on females and then ask yourself this perfectly logical question in the light of islam and the behaviour of the prophet and ali who has been quoted here, knowing how advanced they were for their times, how modern, liberal, fair and just in treating both men and women as equals in the eyes of allah as per every injunction of the quran; would they recommend any procedure which would enhance the sexual pleasure for one gender and suppress it for the other? would they deprive 50% of the human race their god-given right, so that they could serve as chattels and inanimate objects of pleasure for the other? would they approve of actions which would allow men to enslave women and abuse them to enforce their traditional domination and typical male hegemony and chauvinism?

the answer is a resounding NO! what ali recommends is clitoroplexy, i.e. partial removal of the clitoral hood only, nothing else, to actually enhance a woman's pleasure and give her equality in marriage. what ignorant and dogmatic fools have done is distort and deliberately pervert the wisdom of ali and his prophet to in fact exercise their jahalaat and continue with their abuse of women. it is only a weak and insecure male society which has carried out this gigantic fraud on women over centuries. by maintaining a clever silence on this issue, the syedna and his establishment are not only encouraging this cruelty, injustice and abuse, but are criminally complicit in this conspiracy against women.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#129

Unread post by porus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:34 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote: "Maulana Ali (a.s) says: -The Khafz of a daughter should not be done before she is 7 years of age. While doing the khafz the entire skin (clitoral) is not to be removed. A bit should be kept as it enhances her colour and complexion and endears her to her husband."
Br Al Z,

I like your translation; however mine is more, but not completely, literal:
porus wrote: يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن

"O womenfolk, if you cut (khafD) your daughters, then leave a part of it. For that would be more delightful and exciting for their husbands."
As you state, 'khafD' or 'khafz' probably has a more technical meaning incorporating specific procedure rather than the literal meaning which is 'cut'.

Also, the original does use the word 'colors' (alwaan) like you have done.

The actual quote from Ali talks about pleasure this procedure will give husbands but there is really no mention of pleasure it will give the girls. Does not that sound a bit chauvinist? However, this has to be considered in the context of period and place in which both Prophet and Ali lived.

In the same chapter of Daimul Islam there is discussion of 'Istibra', a period in which a master cannot have sexual intercourse with his slave. The clear implication appears to be that a male slave-owner can thus ravage a girl he owns even if he is not married to her. Daimul Islam attributes this permission to both Prophet and Ali. We would not readily accept this today.

I understand that this issue might be considered academic as 'slavery' appears to be non-existent among Bohras, however it clearly has 'legal' precedent as far as Bohras are concerned.



Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#130

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:05 pm

porus,

i agree with your transliteration. it makes eminently more sense. thanks.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#131

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:36 pm

Adam wrote:We Dawoodi Bohra s follow the orders of the Imams AS, in this case Imam ALI AS, which is without a doubt a following of Rasulullah SAW.
We wish the dawoodi bohras truely followed the orders of these luminiaries............... we wouldnt need this forum !!!!



Muslim First
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

#132

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:13 pm

Porus
I understand that this issue might be considered academic as 'slavery' appears to be non-existent among Bohras
Really br Porus? Bohras are not slaves?

Look at slaves in uniform with folded hands here:
http://www.zeninfosys.net/zi6/content/h ... -gallery-v

Picture no 15 of 18



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#133

Unread post by Adam » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:57 pm

@GULAM MOHAMMED : At least the Dawoodi Bohra Community (by following Syedna) in this example are following the Prophet SAW and Imam ALI AS. As they have both ordered for "Khafz". Unlike the others who are out rightly disapproving their teachings, and the teachings of the Dawoodi Bohra faith, and at the same time, claiming to be one. Two faced devil, I would think.

@PORUS : Your translation is correct, and it does justify, according to DB beliefs, female circumcision. Furthermore, where you talk about Daim ul Islam and it's laws. These are laws of Islam, and whether you like it or not, believe it or not, these are the teachings of the Prophet, and they are eternal. So, like I said, if you aren't a Dawoodi Bohra, don't worry about Daim ul Islam, because it is a book, we DBs refer to for Islamic Fiqh.

So i'll repeat very clearly
Thus, I conclude:
FEMALE CIRCUMCISION, isn't a "new" concept.
FEMALE CIRCUMCISION is an Islamic concept, under the guidance of Mowlana Ali AS and Ahlul Bayt AS, and there are details for it. As stated in Daim ul Islam and other Fatimi Law books.
We Dawoodi Bohra s follow the orders of the Imams AS, in this case Imam ALI AS, which is without a doubt a following of Rasulullah SAW.

If you are not a Dawoodi Bohra, please state so.
If you claim to be one, here are the authentic facts. We DAWOODI BOHRAS follow our Imams AS and Duaat RA, as they know better what is best for us.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#134

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:10 pm

Unfortunately for the Dawoodi Bohra community, female circumcision practiced by the dawoodi bohras is not an order of the prophet (saw). There is no hadith where the prophet (saw) ordered female circumcision. The closest hadith that you can find (and this hadith is quoted in the English Translation of Daimul Islam) is reported in Abu Dawood where the prophet (saw) saw a woman performing circumcision on a girl and told her not to cut too deep as that is better for the girl and her husband. So the prophet (saw) actually ordered a woman doing circumcision to not cut deep. One can just as easily infer that the prophet (saw) has actually prevented the cutting because that would reduce the pleasure for the woman and the man. When Allah desires for someone to be foolish, then no amount of education or expertise in languages can change that.

The prophet (saw) prohibited people from kissing his feet and yet the Dawoodi Abdes choose to ignore that command of the prophet (saw) and bring inappropriate justifications from the Quran. Well, then in this case also you should bring a justification from the Quran. Can you?
We DAWOODI BOHRAS follow our Imams AS and Duaat RA, as they know better what is best for us.
No they do not. And here is the proof. Consider what happened a few years ago in Bombay when your Dai uttered lanaat on the first 3 khalifas. DAWOODI BOHRAS got hammered and then your Dai had to apologize for his words. Had he known what was best for you, he wouldn'tve created the problem in the first place. Since, then ofcourse he has learned his lesson. But then, aren't we all similarly shortsighted?



humanbeing
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#135

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:22 am

Text from Mullah on the Mainframe – Jonah Blank (Under the Chapter ‘Variations In The Marriage Norm’)
The Prophet himself married eleven times after the death of his first wife, Khadija, and all of these unions were polygamous. Ali, regarded even by Sunnis as among the most ascetic of the companions, had four wives and seventeen concubines, and is said to have remarried seven nights after Fatima’s death. Ali’s son Hasan is said to have married over 200 women (no more than four at any one time).
Porus Wrote: In the same chapter of Daimul Islam there is discussion of 'Istibra', a period in which a master cannot have sexual intercourse with his slave. The clear implication appears to be that a male slave-owner can thus ravage a girl he owns even if he is not married to her. Daimul Islam attributes this permission to both Prophet and Ali. We would not readily accept this today.
Hi
I don’t have any knowledge on such matters. I m not expressing any opinions here. But honestly seeking some clarification.

Information mentioned in these sources are they true ? Can men in those times or any times have concubines ?



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#136

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:40 pm

Adam wrote:@GULAM MOHAMMED : At least the Dawoodi Bohra Community (by following Syedna) in this example are following the Prophet SAW and Imam ALI AS. As they have both ordered for "Khafz". Unlike the others who are out rightly disapproving their teachings, and the teachings of the Dawoodi Bohra faith, and at the same time, claiming to be one. Two faced devil, I would think.
It is yet to be clarified as to whether the said teachings were really from Prophet (s.a.w.), commonsense says otherwise.



porus
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#137

Unread post by porus » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:03 pm

Adam wrote:
FEMALE CIRCUMCISION is an Islamic concept, under the guidance of Mowlana Ali AS and Ahlul Bayt AS, and there are details for it. As stated in Daim ul Islam and other Fatimi Law books.
We Dawoodi Bohra s follow the orders of the Imams AS, in this case Imam ALI AS, which is without a doubt a following of Rasulullah SAW.
It is not a concept. It is a procedure.

Procedure is not detailed and expresses an unscientific and subjective opinion, and it is only an opinion, that the girls on whom this procedure is carried out will provide more excitement and pleasure to their husbands.

Daimul Islam is not beyond criticism and questioning. If I decide to buy a slave (and, believe me, it can be done even now) and ravage her sexually, I could claim that Daimul Islam allows it.

In these instances, since believers do not want to wrong Muhammad and Ali, these writings need to be re-interpreted in modern context. Otherwise a charge of 'barbarism' could be leveled against them.

As to being a Bohra is concerned, Adam and people who believe like him are in minority. Most agree that being born a Bohra is sufficient to be a Bohra. He is entitled to disagree with Daimul Islam.



Adam
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#138

Unread post by Adam » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:28 pm

@GULAM MOHAMMED
It is yet to be clarified as to whether the said teachings were really from Prophet (s.a.w.), commonsense says otherwise.
ghulam muhammed

So you're saying you don't refer the Daim ul Islam as one of your foundations for the tenets of your belief that are "supposed" to be Dawoodi Bohra beliefs? If not, then after the Quran, what do you refer to to understand Shariat?

@PORUS
You aren't a DB, and have said it many times. I even clarified that my comment was NOT directed towards you. It was directed to those who claim to be DBs, etc etc.

The "rule" regarding to slaves remains the same, as the Shariat is for all mankind. (PS, it's not just DAIM ul ISLAM that discuss this, even Sunni & Shia beliefs have the same concept, with maybe a few changes, so read up on your Islam)

In these instances, since believers do not want to wrong Muhammad and Ali, these writings need to be re-interpreted in modern context. Otherwise a charge of 'barbarism' could be leveled against them.

WRONG AGAIN (in accordance to TRUBE DB beliefs. We believe that the Shariat that Rasulullah SAW brought is eternal, and "RE-INTERPRETATION" which you call for is another word for "bid'ah", which is forbidden and wrong.

Rasulullah SAW knew what's best for ALL man kind, 1000 years ago and for the future. He was the last prophet, and sent to ALL MANKIND.
There have been many like you who claim "modernity" out of their own ego and arrogance, and try to hurt Islam.

Not that I need progs help but just another example of PORUS attacking Islam and DB faith in general, while all the PROGGIES stay silent. And leave it to the Abdes to defend Islam. Mohammed SAW is YOUR Prophet. And Islam is YOUR religion too.
Shame on you two faced cowards!




SBM
Posts: 6170
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#139

Unread post by SBM » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:10 pm

And leave it to the Abdes to defend Islam. Mohammed SAW is YOUR Prophet. And Islam is YOUR religion too.
and which Islam are you talking about, kissing feet and doing Sajda and bending to Muslim Haters like Narendra Modi?



Adam
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#140

Unread post by Adam » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:47 am

@SBM
Was expecting a stupid reply like that. Stick to the conversation topic.
I was talking about the Islam that Rasulullah has stated, that is being called for "modernization", and not being applicable to the current times.
You knew exactly what I meant, but gave a very cowardice answer. Typical.



sixfeetunder
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:48 am

#141

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:45 am

WRONG AGAIN (in accordance to TRUBE DB beliefs. We believe that the Shariat that Rasulullah SAW brought is eternal, and "RE-INTERPRETATION" which you call for is another word for "bid'ah", which is forbidden and wrong.

Rasulullah SAW knew what's best for ALL man kind, 1000 years ago and for the future. He was the last prophet, and sent to ALL MANKIND.
There have been many like you who claim "modernity" out of their own ego and arrogance, and try to hurt Islam.
Laws of the sharia have never been sacred. Sacred are the values that underline these laws.

Miswaq is not sacred! Cleanliness is! Will a twig bring me closer to Allah and his Prophet or will cleanliness do it?

Just because the Prophet came 1400 years ago, Muslims want to be stuck in a time-warp. They want to be children. They refuse to grow up and realize that the Islam brought by the Prophet is for all times and needs to be understood in the present context. Of what use is Islam, if it doesn't address current world problems? Why is the Imam in occultation? It is because he cannot show up when Muslims are still children. Muslims need to mature real fast or face the consequences.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#142

Unread post by porus » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:47 am

Adam wrote:

......

The "rule" regarding to slaves remains the same, as the Shariat is for all mankind. (PS, it's not just DAIM ul ISLAM that discuss this, even Sunni & Shia beliefs have the same concept, with maybe a few changes, so read up on your Islam)

.....

WRONG AGAIN (in accordance to TRUBE DB beliefs. We believe that the Shariat that Rasulullah SAW brought is eternal, and "RE-INTERPRETATION" which you call for is another word for "bid'ah", which is forbidden and wrong.

....

What is clear is that despite obvious learning, Adam has retained a significant trace of fanaticism and bigotry.

To declaim against 'innovation' is a bit rich coming from a diehard abde when the entire lynchpin of the 'faith' of the Bohras rests on Fatimid Innovation which is a re-interpretation of Quran within Greek philosophical context.

To say that Sharia is eternal is to be fanatically blind to history. Sharia rests on Quran and Sunna and there has been, and continue to be, enormous disagreements among various sects about what these actually say. The third component of Sharia, the 'fiqh' dealing with issues not explicitly addressed in either the Quran or the Sunna have different sects raring to go at one another's throats both historically and now.

That is to say, Shariat is nothing but one continuous innovation in meaning, interpretation and practice.

Nothing except Allah is eternal. There have many religions which have bitten the dust. New ones, like Bohraism today, sprout all the time. Prophets are gone, Imams are gone and Dais will go too. That is an inexorable Law of the Universe.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#143

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:50 am

Why is the Imam in occultation? It is because he cannot show up when Muslims are still children.
And what will be the need for him to show up after they grow up?



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#144

Unread post by Adam » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:52 pm

@sixfeetunder
Miswaq is not sacred! Cleanliness is! Will a twig bring me closer to Allah and his Prophet or will cleanliness do it?


Well, actually it will bring you closer, there is a Hadeeth quoted in Daim ul Islam (a book BOHRAs follow for their understanding of Shariat) saying, السواك مطيبة للفم و مرضاة للرب - ie not only does Siwaak clean your mouth, but it also makes the Lord (Rabb) happy.

Yes, siwaak is a very small deed, and a very normal everyday one, but when it comes under the shadow of Shariat, everything becomes a good deed.

@PORUS:
You mistake my Love for Islam as fanaticism, I don't blame you, as there is a very fine line between the two. (FYI, I do consider myself extremely "modern" ;) ).
What needs to be understood is ACCORDING TO DB BELIEFS (I will keep repeating this, because DB beliefs are all I wish to clarify, I don't mind what others believe) that the BASICS of everyday life have been laid down by the Prophet SAW in his Shariat, these rules are eternal, and they are in such a way that they can be applied in all ages.
Coming to the current example of FEMALE CIRCUMCISION. As then as now. It was just as important and "fard" as it is now. Whether "the modern minded people" accept it or not. Islam and Shariat is modern and always welcomes progress.
This is where the difference in interpretation lies. According to DB beliefs, living like the Taliban in the mountains is AGAINST Islamic beliefs and modernity.
This is a very long topic and may not be clarified in a few words.
SHARI'AT is eternal = Will be applied in all ages to come.
ISLAM can be applied even in todays times.

Referring to your argument about the differences between sects. That is irrelevant. Every sect thinks they are right. Let them do as they please. BUT, in my opinion, know which one you want to follow, stick to it and believe in it.

That is to say, Shariat is nothing but one continuous innovation in meaning, interpretation and practice.

Shariat maybe, but Islam is the final Shariat, and whether you accept it or not, like it or not, it's here to stay and will continue to be practiced, and just because you don't think it's modern doesn't mean that its ways should change (for example Zabihat).

Nothing except Allah is eternal.

TRUE
There have many religions which have bitten the dust. New ones, like Bohraism today, sprout all the time. Prophets are gone, Imams are gone and Dais will go too. That is an inexorable Law of the Universe.

(I don't really give attention to people like ANAJMI, but I thought he was a die hard Islamist. He talks a lot about Bohras, but seems to be very quiet whenever defending Islam and Shariat)

UN ISLAMIC comments, and i'm surprised no one is answering this.
Prophets and Imams maybe physically gone, but their religion remains with the Quran and the Sunnah, and it will live on.
That is why we BOHRAS believe in the importance of the lineage of a LEADER and AUTHORITY in every age. (Something you ll never understand).

If I understand PORUS correctly, he is of the egotistic "Philosopher" belief. Which is plain and simple : "I use my intellect only, and I don't need anyone to guide me, I don't need Prophets, Imams, Dais, whoever." "I am capable of determining right from wrong by my own self. I am my own army.
Is this true?

If it is. I respect it. But that's not what Islam or DB faith teaches us.

MILAD un NABI SAW MUBARAK (The Prophet of ISLAM)



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#145

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:32 pm

I don't really give attention to people like ANAJMI, but I thought he was a die hard Islamist. He talks a lot about Bohras, but seems to be very quiet whenever defending Islam and Shariat
Only until ANAJMI chooses not to pay attention to you!! Are you asking for my help? :wink:

Sorry, but once in a while you should do the defending yourself. By the way, you are not doing a very good job. Stick to DB logic and try not to talk about Islam. The day you prostrated before your Dai you went far away from Islam. Which portion of the Shariat you choose to follow after that doesn't really matter cause you have already disobeyed the biggest and the most important part of it which is Tawheed.
Last edited by anajmi on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#146

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:41 pm

Prophets are gone, Imams are gone and Dais will go too.
I completely agree with that statement. The prophets are gone, the Imams (if they were ever there sanctioned by Allah which they weren't) are gone and the Dais (again, a position not sanctioned by Allah), well they will go too. 52 is already on the way out and has already nominated 53. What remains is the Quran and the Sunnah of the last and final prophet (saw) of Islam. Everyone else, is just a ruler trying to grab a piece of the pie. In case of the Dai, he and his parasitic family wants the entire pie.



SBM
Posts: 6170
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

#147

Unread post by SBM » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:38 pm

Coming to the current example of FEMALE CIRCUMCISION. As then as now. It was just as important and "fard" as it is now. Whether "the modern minded people" accept it or not. Islam and Shariat is modern and always welcomes progress.
Adam
I do not consider myself an scholar and stay out of this kind of discussion but let me ask you the following as you are a die hard abde
Syedna has always said that follow the law of the land and Bohras should respect the laws of land, Now some of the European countries where Kothar has significance investments like UK where Bu Saheba is buried have introduced laws against female circumcision so what does a die hard abde to do, follow Syedna's farman for laws of land or shariat of Bohraism?



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#148

Unread post by Adam » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:53 am

@SBM
Good question.
In my opinion of Dawoodi Bohra beliefs, adhering to the laws of Shari'at come first in every case. (Hypothetically, if a country passes a law banning the beard, or Salaat etc or any Sharitat deed, would you obey the laws of the country or the laws of Rasulullah SAW?)

Syedna has always said that follow the law of the land and Bohras should respect the laws of land,

Let me clarify, this isn't SYEDNA s saying, everytime he quotes this, he always quotes the Hadeeth of Rasulullah SAW - حب الوطن من الايمان
(Love for your Watan (country, etc) is a part of your IMAN.).
So it isn't a BOHRA belief, rather it is an Islamic belief.

Again, in my opinion, this means to always support the land you live in, and not to cause harm towards it and its people in general.
But, if it comes to a point that your SHARIAT is being affected, you have either two options, to give preference to Shariat and try to obey by it personally if it is possible. OR, leave that country.
In this case, Female Circumcision maybe not be allowed, but Bohras and Muslims are practicing it in private giving preference to the Shariat of Rasulullah SAW. Also, what a Muslim woman does in Europe to her own self, in the bigger picture of "love for land" doesnt' affect the people of that country in general or cause harm to them. It is her wish, and her choice to follow her religion.

For example, Adhaan for Fajar prayers, if the law of the country states you shouldn't play it on Loud speaker, for "noise pollution" or not to disturb the people and cause harm to their livelihood, as long as it is a justified argument, in my opinion, a Muslim should refrain from doing it. Firstly, because it is causing discomfort to others, but most importantly, it isn't affecting his OWN Shariat, as his Salaat will still go on as usual.

There definitely is a fine line between them.

@ SBM - In reference to all your comments, you don't seem to want to be a Dawoodi Bohra. Which sect of Islam and Fiqh do you follow?

@anajmi
Wasn't looking for your help, was just commenting on your cowardice. Shariat and Islam are being discussed that it isn't good enough, and you keep quiet.
What remains is the Quran and the Sunnah of the last and final prophet (saw) of Islam.
TRUE. But in reference to Female Circumcision, the law of the Prophet is being disputed, and you sit quiet! Coward.
No need to reply.




anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#149

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:32 am

the law of the Prophet is being disputed
Not prostrating in front of other humans is a law of the prophet (saw). Female Circumcision (Female Genital Mutilation) is not a law of the prophet (saw). Daimul Islam is not an authority on Islam. It is a book written by a sycophant of the ruler of that time to elevate his status and to fool idiots like you.



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#150

Unread post by Adam » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:22 am

ANAJMI
Daimul Islam is not an authority on Islam.

So, after the Quran, what is YOUR authority on Islam and Shariat? (Books, People?)

I'll rephrase: Daim ul Islam is an authority on Islam for the DAWOODI BOHRAS. (Just in case you didn't notice, everyone else claims to be a Dawoodi Bohra on this forum), so the discussions continues on the base of Daim ul Islam.
And Daim ul Islam quotes Mowlana ALI AS about Female Circumcision.