Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

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Mamluk-E-Syedna
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1231

Unread post by Mamluk-E-Syedna » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:59 pm

SBM wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:29 pm
If you read the entire story, this was acquittal from federal prosecution based on constitutionality, but it is still illegal in State of Michigan and State charges may be coming up.
Mr. "Smart Bohra Man (SBM)":
The Federal judge has thrown out ALL charges against ALL defendents, as they were based on a law passed by the US Congress that is ruled as "unconstitutional ". As for the Michigan State law, it was enacted AFTER this case was brought to the.court -- and specifically, as a reactionary move (or an afterthought). Regardless, in the United States, you cannot charge anyone "retroactively". BTW, did you notice that this judgement came on the day of Milaad-un-Nabi. To me, that is not a "coincidence", but a solid affirmation of my faith and belief that "Rsulallah's Shariat is always fresh, and will remain so forever." May the enemies of Dawat continue to burn in their fire of jealousy and hatred forever. Aameen.



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1232

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:12 am

^^^ Not true. From Detroit News : “Friedman delivered a significant, but not fatal, blow to a novel criminal prosecution because the judge left intact conspiracy and obstruction charges that could send Nagarwala and three others to federal prison for decades”



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1233

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:15 am

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-n ... utionality

“She still faces conspiracy to travel with intent to engage in illicit sexual conduct and obstruction charges. Others in the case face obstruction charges.”

Details details....



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1234

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:26 am

8) Detractors of Oz just as eager to jump the gun and declare victory as Oz was :roll:



Ozdundee
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1235

Unread post by Ozdundee » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:16 am

Let me put this in loss we won, if we won we would have won. So this was a fight where there was no real loss for antifgm. We got bruised but the victor is still the villain

Yes feds lost the trial, their job is to bring crime to court courts decide if law was broken. That's the process. I salute FBI for doing what no progressive would have ever achieved at the scale and sophistication. Our Amte educated women and DBWRF have their heads in the sand not to seek their me too moment.

But read carefully. The FGM laws were never tested in US Australia and India courts.

The judgment could not be completed because the laws were not water tight.

The laws will be tightened, Bohra style FGM will become illegal. I have 100% certainty.

Yes the accused did not be penalised and will not be sentenced. That was never the agenda. It was to ban FGM. Scare the shit out of the mullahs.

Which ever mental retard thinks Abde are permitted to perform FGM good luck next time the laws will be straight forward.

Even in such legal disappointment we have won indirectly . For now 6 years Bohra FGM has received media coverage.

For a non Bohra say FGM they know it's Bohra. Say Bohra they say those who do FGM. Don't underestimate the brand damage.

The global police have been looking through every corner of Bohra operations. This is priceless. Parliament across the globe will now open the hood of dawaat they will hear more when the laws go to parliament for updating and debate. That is sweet. The show will go on.

No judge anywhere ever said FGM does not occur in Bohra. The judges struggled with whether it is clear what type of FGM or whether law was created correctly and can be applied in the alleged crime . Procedural issues. Laws get polished regularly. Next time the law enforcement and law makers will be better prepared.

Mufadal can do his victory lap within the confines of his Abde, but he is not a favourite in public social order and authorities books.

OzD always looks at glass half full. As long as I am around I will make sure FGM is topic wherever SMS feels he is sultan. Offcourse unless SMS does what STF did, just remove it from Fardh chapter close. If SMS remains stubborn and arrogant does not back down , we will keep coming for it. That way FGM will die a slow death amongst Bohra.



WYP
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1236

Unread post by WYP » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 am

Since April 2017, there have been many hollow victory celebrations by the progressives and paid advocacy groups. Since the initial filing of charges, we have seen charge after charge after charge getting dropped. I am quite certain the remaining charges will suffer the same fate. Mr SBM, you dont have to worry about Dr Nagarwala's remaining life and savings -- Allah Ta'ala has bestowed believers with sabr and shukr -- no matter the conditions. Allah Ta'ala will do hifazat of Rasulullah's (SAW) shariat always.



level_headed
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:02 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1237

Unread post by level_headed » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:59 pm

WYP wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 am
Since April 2017, there have been many hollow victory celebrations by the progressives and paid advocacy groups. Since the initial filing of charges, we have seen charge after charge after charge getting dropped. I am quite certain the remaining charges will suffer the same fate. Mr SBM, you dont have to worry about Dr Nagarwala's remaining life and savings -- Allah Ta'ala has bestowed believers with sabr and shukr -- no matter the conditions. Allah Ta'ala will do hifazat of Rasulullah's (SAW) shariat always.
I have been saying this for a long time, Jeet to mere Maula ki hi hogi.
Also the comment on savings and money is a telling comment - what else can you expect from these Paiso ke pujari.
Nice response WYP.



Reporter
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:34 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1238

Unread post by Reporter » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:52 pm

WeSpeakOut's statement on the Michigan court decision

WeSpeakOut is extremely disappointed that a judge in Michigan has struck down a 22-year old federal anti-FGM law in the United States.

In some parts of the Bohra community, it is being hailed as a victory by the pro-fgm campaigners, when clearly it is not.

On November 20, 2018, the Eastern District Court of Michigan declared the federal anti-FGM statute in the U.S. unconstitutional. The order was made on a technical ground under US law, since federalism limitations impose restrictions on the kinds of activity which can be regulated by the federal government as opposed to the states. When a law is declared unconstitutional, it's declared unconstitutional from the time the law was originally passed.

To be clear, the federal law and the charges against Dr. Nagarwala et al have been discharged NOT because there was no FGM/C performed on the Bohra girls, and NOT because FGM/C is not a crime but because of a technicality. The judge clearly states that "FGM is a 'local criminal activity'".

The ruling of the District Court has no impact on the debate on FGM/C within the Bohra community in India, as the criminal charges in the U.S. were dismissed on a technicality under U.S. law. In the order, the district Judge has specifically referred to FGM as a "despicable practice", and noted that it was a form of physical assault. 27 U.S. States already have state anti-FGM statutes which continue to be valid and legal. There is also a good possibility that the U.S. Government will appeal the decision of the Judge in this case, and the Government has confirmed that they are considering this option.

WeSpeakOut will steadfastly continue its fight to end the practice of FGM/C in the worldwide Bohra community, which involves the cutting of the clitoral hood of a girl child. We are gratified that more and more Bohras understand the potential harm it causes girls and women and urge all Bohras to give up this ancient harmful traditional practice.

http://www.wespeakout.org/posts/wespeak ... -decision/



momeenbhai
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1239

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:29 pm

those who are opposing khatna are same people who will advise that even masturbation is good.

and finally, they will reach to an argument where they will also support gay sex and animal sex.

these are the people who cant see broader perspective of shariyat, they want to follow their nafs and reject all the traditions which holds respect.



Ozdundee
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1240

Unread post by Ozdundee » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:41 am

Offcourse would have appreciated win. We gave everything we had.

Abde are very naive in geopolitics. This is not keram. Does not need a win to win the argument at a global war against FGM.

Yes we lost 3 battles, but we also won so many battles, andthe war is on.

Let's score

AntiFGM in the Blue corner

Win in law courts of NSW
Win in Supreme Court
Win media attention in Australia
Amil position in Australia vacant for 4 years
Unable to send Zadas
Media in USA
Media in India
STF statement on FGM
SMS Canada visa declined
Sentence in Au increased to 20yrs.
Forced release of Jamaat letters hubul vatan
On file at FBI and Australian Federal Police

Win for Kothar in red corner

Win appeal court of NSW
Win in Detroit
India Supreme Court adjourned refered to constitutional court instead. I will give a draw as your win.





allbird
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1243

Unread post by allbird » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:10 am

Interesting video on Shai' s point of view on FMG and Female Khutna.



seeker110
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1244

Unread post by seeker110 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Iddat is the next one, oppressing women.

Let them use their money's to pay off politicians, for one, if you still engage in the same activity as before, keep paying.

Or change.



juzer esmail
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1245

Unread post by juzer esmail » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:21 pm

allbird wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:10 am
Interesting video on Shai' s point of view on FMG and Female Khutna.
Unable to see this video. Any links to the same?



allbird
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1246

Unread post by allbird » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:21 am

It works for me



Bohra spring
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1247

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:42 am

Detroit is back in action



MohammedG
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:37 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1248

Unread post by MohammedG » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:14 am

Just got back from Milaad waaz in Surat. Syedna Mufaddal TUS made more comments against the U.S. / U.K. / Western countries governments and said that all Dawoodi Bohras girls should undergo Khafz at a young age. Laws should not come in the way of his followers!

I wonder what Shk. Mustafa Abdulhussein who is his appointed "legal expert" on khafz would now tell the New South Wales Supreme Court. Last time, he said that Syedna "did not know" it was illegal and that Syedna always tells his followers to follow all laws of the countries where they reside. That was not true when he said it, and it is even less true after Syedna's public statement today.

He continues to be a madman advocating this practice, even after his followers have only very narrowly escaped and got off the hook. Some diehards may say that is divine intervention - but it is foolish to think everyone will be so lucky if he is publicly and brazenly advocating the practice.

He is a fanatic, Islamist fundamentalist - certainly not a peace-loving, balanced and moderate leader like he claims.



Biradar
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1249

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:13 pm

MohammedG wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:14 am
....

He continues to be a madman advocating this practice, even after his followers have only very narrowly escaped and got off the hook. Some diehards may say that is divine intervention - but it is foolish to think everyone will be so lucky if he is publicly and brazenly advocating the practice.

He is a fanatic, Islamist fundamentalist - certainly not a peace-loving, balanced and moderate leader like he claims.
Then why did you go to this so-called waaz in Surat? You know he is a "madman advocating this practice" but still choose to swell the number of his followers by going to his events. Presumably you don't live in Surat. So you must be pretty dedicated and hard-core follower to go all the way to Surat to listen to him. So why complain? Just make sure your daughters and sisters are lining up in front of butchers and barbarian mullahs like Muffy More-la and his brothers and uncles, ready to have their genitals mutilated. Or grow a pair and leave this insane barbarian madman and save your kids the trauma he is advocating.



qutub_mamajiwala
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1250

Unread post by qutub_mamajiwala » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am

Biradar wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:13 pm
MohammedG wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:14 am
....

He continues to be a madman advocating this practice, even after his followers have only very narrowly escaped and got off the hook. Some diehards may say that is divine intervention - but it is foolish to think everyone will be so lucky if he is publicly and brazenly advocating the practice.

He is a fanatic, Islamist fundamentalist - certainly not a peace-loving, balanced and moderate leader like he claims.
Then why did you go to this so-called waaz in Surat? You know he is a "madman advocating this practice" but still choose to swell the number of his followers by going to his events. Presumably you don't live in Surat. So you must be pretty dedicated and hard-core follower to go all the way to Surat to listen to him. So why complain? Just make sure your daughters and sisters are lining up in front of butchers and barbarian mullahs like Muffy More-la and his brothers and uncles, ready to have their genitals mutilated. Or grow a pair and leave this insane barbarian madman and save your kids the trauma he is advocating.
i agree we should not go.
but on other hand, how will we know what he says if nobody goes.
it was not relayed, and even if it is relayed sometime afterwards or next year, most probably that part would be edited out.
if anyody recorded that?



MohammedG
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:37 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1251

Unread post by MohammedG » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:48 am

i agree we should not go.
but on other hand, how will we know what he says if nobody goes.
it was not relayed, and even if it is relayed sometime afterwards or next year, most probably that part would be edited out.
if anyody recorded that?
I hope someone recorded it - I should have.

Syedna Mufaddal is probably the only Dai there has ever been whose bayans have to be censored for unacceptable content. His own Kothar Admin can't rely on him to say sensible things so they have to censor bayan before distribution. Thoughts so unacceptable in the modern world that even his own follower's can't listen to his unedited relays.

What a farce.



Biradar
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1252

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:27 am

qutub_mamajiwala wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am
Biradar wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:13 pm


Then why did you go to this so-called waaz in Surat? You know he is a "madman advocating this practice" but still choose to swell the number of his followers by going to his events. Presumably you don't live in Surat. So you must be pretty dedicated and hard-core follower to go all the way to Surat to listen to him. So why complain? Just make sure your daughters and sisters are lining up in front of butchers and barbarian mullahs like Muffy More-la and his brothers and uncles, ready to have their genitals mutilated. Or grow a pair and leave this insane barbarian madman and save your kids the trauma he is advocating.
i agree we should not go.
but on other hand, how will we know what he says if nobody goes.
it was not relayed, and even if it is relayed sometime afterwards or next year, most probably that part would be edited out.
if anyody recorded that?
The problem with going is the following: as far as the Kothari Mafia is concerned, if you go you are a follower. That is all. They want to make a count of the number of people and show how many people support them. Further, it does harm to your own naafs. Listening to a person you think is a "madman" or is spewing some nonsense about women, FGM, licking spoons and plates, destroying other folk's property, etc etc is not good for your own mental and spiritual health.

There are many options available to one. First, one can just stay home. Or if you must have the social contact you can join the numerous other groups that will provide you with the needed social and spiritual support. You can find like-minded friends and organize an event yourself. You can find the nearest Sufi groups and join them. You can listen to FD broadcasts. Whatever you like. But going shows cowardice and tells the Kothari Mafia that you support them and are willing to make the trip even to another city at your expense to listen to the nonsense spewing from this charlatan fool Muffy.

What next? You will take your daughter to the nearest butcher to have her genitals mutilated just to find out what is happening?



bohraspy
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:17 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1253

Unread post by bohraspy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:59 am

MohammedG wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:14 am
Just got back from Milaad waaz in Surat. Syedna Mufaddal TUS made more comments against the U.S. / U.K. / Western countries governments and said that all Dawoodi Bohras girls should undergo Khafz at a young age. Laws should not come in the way of his followers!

I wonder what Shk. Mustafa Abdulhussein who is his appointed "legal expert" on khafz would now tell the New South Wales Supreme Court. Last time, he said that Syedna "did not know" it was illegal and that Syedna always tells his followers to follow all laws of the countries where they reside. That was not true when he said it, and it is even less true after Syedna's public statement today.

He continues to be a madman advocating this practice, even after his followers have only very narrowly escaped and got off the hook. Some diehards may say that is divine intervention - but it is foolish to think everyone will be so lucky if he is publicly and brazenly advocating the practice.

He is a fanatic, Islamist fundamentalist - certainly not a peace-loving, balanced and moderate leader like he claims.
Thank you for this update. If you can share a recording or any more details? This could be big.



kseeker
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1254

Unread post by kseeker » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:08 am

Biradar wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:27 am
qutub_mamajiwala wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am


i agree we should not go.
but on other hand, how will we know what he says if nobody goes.
it was not relayed, and even if it is relayed sometime afterwards or next year, most probably that part would be edited out.
if anyody recorded that?
The problem with going is the following: as far as the Kothari Mafia is concerned, if you go you are a follower. That is all. They want to make a count of the number of people and show how many people support them. Further, it does harm to your own naafs. Listening to a person you think is a "madman" or is spewing some nonsense about women, FGM, licking spoons and plates, destroying other folk's property, etc etc is not good for your own mental and spiritual health.

There are many options available to one. First, one can just stay home. Or if you must have the social contact you can join the numerous other groups that will provide you with the needed social and spiritual support. You can find like-minded friends and organize an event yourself. You can find the nearest Sufi groups and join them. You can listen to FD broadcasts. Whatever you like. But going shows cowardice and tells the Kothari Mafia that you support them and are willing to make the trip even to another city at your expense to listen to the nonsense spewing from this charlatan fool Muffy.

What next? You will take your daughter to the nearest butcher to have her genitals mutilated just to find out what is happening?

Dear Biradar,
Let's for a moment keep Kothari control, SMS fake rule and STF claims aside and talk about it from a Musta'Ali Ismaili Shia perspective.
No matter who we believe the right dai to be (or even if none of them is), the Daim ul Islam is our source/guide for shariat.. one might say there might be topics not covered in it however no one questions the topics covered in it to be incorrect when it comes to Bohra beliefs...

The book clearly talks about circumcision for both men and women.. in case of the women to alter the labia and clitoris but to not remove it completely.. this is to make a wife "chaster and more loved by her husband"... do you disagree with that statement that this is said, if not, how do you explain it or what meaning do you take of it, or do you refute the book altogether?



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 531
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1255

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:41 pm

MohammedG wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:14 am
Just got back from Milaad waaz in Surat. Syedna Mufaddal TUS made more comments against the U.S. / U.K. / Western countries governments and said that all Dawoodi Bohras girls should undergo Khafz at a young age. Laws should not come in the way of his followers!

I wonder what Shk. Mustafa Abdulhussein who is his appointed "legal expert" on khafz would now tell the New South Wales Supreme Court. Last time, he said that Syedna "did not know" it was illegal and that Syedna always tells his followers to follow all laws of the countries where they reside. That was not true when he said it, and it is even less true after Syedna's public statement today.

He continues to be a madman advocating this practice, even after his followers have only very narrowly escaped and got off the hook. Some diehards may say that is divine intervention - but it is foolish to think everyone will be so lucky if he is publicly and brazenly advocating the practice.

He is a fanatic, Islamist fundamentalist - certainly not a peace-loving, balanced and moderate leader like he claims.
Appreciate your post, brother MohammedG. Can others corroborate this account and add to it as to the exact words that were said? That would be helpful. There have to be thousands of folks at this waiz, anybody else has heard anything definitive? And finally, as others have said, any audio or video recording would definitely hep confirm it.



Biradar
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1256

Unread post by Biradar » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:40 pm

kseeker wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:08 am

The book clearly talks about circumcision for both men and women.. in case of the women to alter the labia and clitoris but to not remove it completely.. this is to make a wife "chaster and more loved by her husband"... do you disagree with that statement that this is said, if not, how do you explain it or what meaning do you take of it, or do you refute the book altogether?
I have already written a lot on this topic before. In short, the Daim al-Islam was written a long time ago when people did not know any better. It is likely that S. Qadi Noman was influenced by African tribal customs (remember the Fatimid Empire was in North Africa and Egypt) and included it in his compilation of Ismaili law. Before becoming an Ismaili it is possible that Qadi Noman was an adherent of another strand of Islam and he brought his beliefs with him when composing the book.

One should also look at it in the following way. No other major school of Islam practices FGM. In fact, even the Nizari Ismailis have abandoned this practice a long time ago. They also were following the Fatimids, at least till Imam Mustansir and hence have the same heritage as the Bohras. So how come they eliminated the practice?

Besides these arguments, one should look at the Qur'an for guidance. It is clear that FGM is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. In many ways the world of the Qur'an is one of egalitarianism between the genders. Quite clearly, FGM is designed to control women's sexual activity (despite the claims to the contrary) and hence goes against a fundamental principle of the Qur'an.

Incidentally, I should say that the FD guidance on this matter, that is to leave this procedure till adulthood and even then do it only from a free choice, essentially also eliminates the practice. No educated and well rounded woman will choose to do this, unless she is fanatic or forced by her family. The argument presented by FD are very interesting too. Basically, they give the example of the legal age for marriage in Islam, which is very low. However, at the beginning of the twentieth century STS gave the guidance that women should not get married so early and set a nominal minimum age much higher than say recommended in the Daim. So, the FD argument goes, it is okay to modify some requirements of shaaria based on the time one is living in and one's understanding of human nature, sexuality etc. Otherwise we would not be any different from the insane Taliban who go around cutting people's heads off due to their very skewed understanding of Islam.

At the end of the day, the reality of the matter is that Allah, hopefully, has given you a brain. You don't need any mullah or ancient book of law to tell you how to live your life. I mean, if someone really thinks they need to chop their daughter's genitals off just because some person said so over 1000 years ago, specially when that person lived in a totally different culture and tradition, I would say you are not very smart. Think for yourself. Yes, consult books but at the end of the day use your own brain and, for god's sake, don't put your daughter through trauma for no reason except a raving fanatic tells you to do it.



Ozdundee
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1257

Unread post by Ozdundee » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:14 pm

There are 3 cases pending and likely decisions soon.

Government High Court Appeal against NSW Court of appeal decision.

FBI appeal against Detroit rulling.

Ruling against Bohra lawyer found to pervert course of justice during investigation.



kseeker
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1258

Unread post by kseeker » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:18 am

Biradar wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:40 pm
kseeker wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:08 am

The book clearly talks about circumcision for both men and women.. in case of the women to alter the labia and clitoris but to not remove it completely.. this is to make a wife "chaster and more loved by her husband"... do you disagree with that statement that this is said, if not, how do you explain it or what meaning do you take of it, or do you refute the book altogether?
I have already written a lot on this topic before. In short, the Daim al-Islam was written a long time ago when people did not know any better. It is likely that S. Qadi Noman was influenced by African tribal customs (remember the Fatimid Empire was in North Africa and Egypt) and included it in his compilation of Ismaili law. Before becoming an Ismaili it is possible that Qadi Noman was an adherent of another strand of Islam and he brought his beliefs with him when composing the book.

One should also look at it in the following way. No other major school of Islam practices FGM. In fact, even the Nizari Ismailis have abandoned this practice a long time ago. They also were following the Fatimids, at least till Imam Mustansir and hence have the same heritage as the Bohras. So how come they eliminated the practice?

Besides these arguments, one should look at the Qur'an for guidance. It is clear that FGM is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. In many ways the world of the Qur'an is one of egalitarianism between the genders. Quite clearly, FGM is designed to control women's sexual activity (despite the claims to the contrary) and hence goes against a fundamental principle of the Qur'an.

Incidentally, I should say that the FD guidance on this matter, that is to leave this procedure till adulthood and even then do it only from a free choice, essentially also eliminates the practice. No educated and well rounded woman will choose to do this, unless she is fanatic or forced by her family. The argument presented by FD are very interesting too. Basically, they give the example of the legal age for marriage in Islam, which is very low. However, at the beginning of the twentieth century STS gave the guidance that women should not get married so early and set a nominal minimum age much higher than say recommended in the Daim. So, the FD argument goes, it is okay to modify some requirements of shaaria based on the time one is living in and one's understanding of human nature, sexuality etc. Otherwise we would not be any different from the insane Taliban who go around cutting people's heads off due to their very skewed understanding of Islam.

At the end of the day, the reality of the matter is that Allah, hopefully, has given you a brain. You don't need any mullah or ancient book of law to tell you how to live your life. I mean, if someone really thinks they need to chop their daughter's genitals off just because some person said so over 1000 years ago, specially when that person lived in a totally different culture and tradition, I would say you are not very smart. Think for yourself. Yes, consult books but at the end of the day use your own brain and, for god's sake, don't put your daughter through trauma for no reason except a raving fanatic tells you to do it.

As much as I agree with you.. a lot of your arguments, which require me having a brain, also question the need to pray or do wudhu.. why would Allah want him creatures to leave everything and start a physical ritual five times a day, every day.. a bath is not enough to get taharat but wiping your hands on your head and your feet in a certain way are?.. believing that every book revealed by Allah has been changed, except for the Quran (well that sounds very convenient)...

Don't get me wrong.. your points and your logic make sense and I agree with them.. but those logic can be applied to invalidate pretty much everything in our Shariaa.. this book is supposed to be written under guidance of 4 imaams and completed under Imam Muiz.. now do we say that were they even influenced by their cultures? did they miss this? or did Qazi Noman sneak this in? or is this book false altogether...

Faith is belief without proof. One should use their brains.. but there is a fine line in using the brain to distinguish between right and wrong.. and to make excuses to choose what we believe and ignore what we don't like....



MohammedG
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:37 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1259

Unread post by MohammedG » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:47 am

Ozdundee wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:14 pm
There are 3 cases pending and likely decisions soon.

Government High Court Appeal against NSW Court of appeal decision.

FBI appeal against Detroit rulling.

Ruling against Bohra lawyer found to pervert course of justice during investigation.
I think we were all waiting for this to happen - didn't expect the FBI or the Crown Prosecutor to give up so easily. But I didn't know that the crown was appealing the NSW appear court decision. When was this filed and when is the verdict likely (weeks or months?).

In the matter of the ruling against the Bohra lawyer has the judgement been given and is it published?



Biradar
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#1260

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:10 am

kseeker wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:18 am

As much as I agree with you.. a lot of your arguments, which require me having a brain, also question the need to pray or do wudhu.. why would Allah want him creatures to leave everything and start a physical ritual five times a day, every day.. a bath is not enough to get taharat but wiping your hands on your head and your feet in a certain way are?.. believing that every book revealed by Allah has been changed, except for the Quran (well that sounds very convenient)...

Don't get me wrong.. your points and your logic make sense and I agree with them.. but those logic can be applied to invalidate pretty much everything in our Shariaa.. this book is supposed to be written under guidance of 4 imaams and completed under Imam Muiz.. now do we say that were they even influenced by their cultures? did they miss this? or did Qazi Noman sneak this in? or is this book false altogether...

Faith is belief without proof. One should use their brains.. but there is a fine line in using the brain to distinguish between right and wrong.. and to make excuses to choose what we believe and ignore what we don't like....
If Allah did not want you to think, why did he give you a brain and developed in you a very keen sense of logic, an inner sense of what makes sense and what is absurd? Obviously, if Allah wanted you to be a brainless zombie he would have made you one. As to the other points you raise.

Yes, if you feel that the physical ritual of prayers as prescribed say in the Daim or elsewhere makes no sense do not do it. Remember, again, there is no precise prescription of rituals for these things in the Qur'an and so it is perfectly okay to have variety in these things, and not judge others or even yourself in following a very narrow and ritualistic set of movements, for example. Lets take namaaz. Many Sunni groups join their hands together and do not raise their hands to their ears when going from one position to another, for example. Does it invalidate their namaaz? Are you the one to judge? Is even S Qadi Noman the one to judge?

To say "faith is belief without proof" is absurd in the highest degree. In fact, it shows you know very little about Islamic and Ismaili philosophy. In Islam there is no such thing as "belief without proof". In verse after verse in the Qur'an there is exhortation to mankind to consider the proofs around them for a Creator and His essential goodness. Ismaili philosophy prides itself on being a logically based belief system, in which nothing should be believed just because so-and-so says so. It has a deep set of principles from which the theological ideas are built and nowhere it is said "just believe blindly". If you believe blindly, as you seem to do, then it is sad.

As to why Imam's did not object to the content in the da'im. First, consider that the Imams lived in a time very different than ours. Hence, the guidelines in the da'im are essentially for the consideration of the local jurisprudence in the Fatimid empire. There is no reason to believe that anyone considered these guidelines to extend forever into eternity. In fact, it is absurd. Before the establishment of the empire, what book do you think they followed? Do you think, and can you prove, that the things in da'im were followed even before the book was written down? Again, in Islam the only real thing that is 100% certain the inviolability and permanence of the Qur'an. Nothing else.

Let me give you another example. The Imams apparently wrote or commissioned Ikhwan as-Safa that talks of many things, including science. Many of the things written in that book are factually wrong. So do you reject modern science too, just because Ikhwan says something that is contradictory to what have learned since that book was written? That book was written by Imams directly and so perhaps, following your logic, it is even more correct than the da'im. So should we reject modern science, modern logic and modern understanding? If you say "yes", I feel very sad and sorry for you. In fact, even the Imams, if they were alive today would consider the rasaail of the Ikwan as something of historical interest, not something that provides concrete factual information.

Finally, I want you to consider that there are rather literally thousands of different strands of Islam. Are you suggesting that all of them are wrong because they do not follow FGM or other things in the da'im? Only you are correct because you read some book from 1000 years ago, written in a kingdom that could not ensure its own survival for more than 150 years and has vanished?

Friend, I do not wish to argue with your endlessly. I do not engage here too often, but your suggestion that FGM should be practiced because it is in a 1000 year old book needs to be challenged. This absurd belief leads to great harm. FGM is not some funny ritual we do and all laugh about. It has serious and permanent consequences for girls that last her all her life. It has serious implications for the rights of women and the ability of mullahs to control our lives. In any case, FD folk and Aga Khanis do not follow FGM, even though they consider da'im to be an important book. Hence, it is clear that things in it are not to be taken as written in stone. One can use one's judgement and chose not to do things which cause physical harm and mental trauma to little girls. Again, I urge you to use your brain. Allah gave you a brain you to so you can use it. Not so you can lock it up and fall into an intellectual stupor.