Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

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Masoom Sehrai
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:01 am

Female genital mutilation


Unread post by Masoom Sehrai » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:53 am

This item appeared in a Pakitani Newspaper DAWN on Friday 8th July,2005.(
The practice is still going on in Bohra community due to lack of awareness and it is required that the community people should be made aware of it. Most Bohras do it as a religious duty as it is still being preached by the High priest and the Aamil Sahiban.
Masoom Sehrai.

Female genital mutilation

THIS has reference to Juliet Rix’s report (The Review, June 9) about the ill-fated effects of female genital mutilation (FGM) being carried out on numerous Muslim girls in parts of northern Africa. According to the writer, this practice has also now invaded the United Kingdom which has declared it as a criminal act. It is said that in the UK 100,000 women and 20,000 girls are at a risk of genital mutilation.

FGM is being practised by a minority group of Muslims and has acquired a religious mandatory ritual. This can cause many a health hazard throughout life, says Ms Juliet. Girls can find it difficult to urinate, periods can be painful, abdominal or pelvic pain is common, cyst and chronic low-level infections could result. It involves psychological problems as well. The procedure involves removal of all or part of the clitoris and labia as claimed.

What the correspondent did not dwell upon is its sexual aspect. This act represses the libido of sexual origin and reduces the accomplishment of highest bliss which is God’s gift to all living creatures. Circumcision is carried out on girls by cutting of all or part of the clitoris as a religious rite which reduces the sensuality and natural instinct.

This is being practised in India as well as in Pakistan by a minority group at the behest of their religious leaders. Should this be made a criminal offence here as done in the UK and elsewhere?

Daily DAWN 8 July 2005.

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Unread post by mumineen » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:24 pm

1. In the name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful

Position Paper on Female Genital Mutilation/Female Circumcision Website Index...MWL Home PageAbout MWLMWL PublicationsNews and AnalysisMWL Speeches and PresentationsRecommended ReadingPast ActivitiesMWL ForumMessage BoardMWL ResourcesRelated SitesMWL StoreMWL Chat Room
Until recently, the majority of the world's over one billion Muslims had scarcely heard of female genital cutting (also known as female circumcision and female genital mutilation (FGM)). When the subject began to receive international media attention, many Muslims responded with disgust, easily dismissing any possible connection between this practice and the religion of Islam.
Enhanced awareness of the cultural significance of FGM in some Muslim countries requires a more detailed look at the relationship of FGM to Islam. In July, 1997 the Egyptian government overturned a ban on the practice of FGM. This event was celebrated by some Muslim figures, particularly Sheikh Youssef al-Badri, an outspoken proponent of the circumcision of Muslim women. Later the ban was reinstated, an act celebrated now by feminists and under assault by a few Muslim activists, again, led by Sheikh al-Badri. For the general public, with only limited exposure to Muslims and Islam, the natural conclusion would be that the practice of FGM must somehow be part of the faith, since those who seem to be the most religious are the most ardent supporters. Unfortunately , this simply represents how the sexuality of women is used, under whatever philosophy or world-view, to perpetuate their subjugation.
Female genital cutting is practiced by Muslims and non-Muslims alike residing mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa in countries that include but are not limited to Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Kenya and Chad. A more minor form of the procedure is also performed in some parts of the Middle East and South Asia. Degrees of mutilation exist ranging from excision of the hood of the clitoris or clitoris itself to complete infibulation which involves removal of the clitoris, labia minora and labia majora, leaving a small opening for the passage of urine and menstrual blood. As expected, normal sexual intercourse is not possible without a corrective procedure and childbirth frequently involves severe trauma that can result in life-threatening hemorrhage. Other complications include chronic urinary tract and other infections, infertility, psychological trauma, sexual dysfunction, menstrual problems and several other negative medical and emotional outcomes. The procedure is performed on girls between the ages of infancy and pre-adolescence and is either carried out by a physician, midwife or designated woman from the community. Lack of sterile technique, use of the same instruments on more than one child, and lack of anesthesia all contribute to the complication rate which can even include infection with HIV. Medicalizing FGM by performing it in hospitals with appropriate surgical technique will not eliminate all of the complications associated with this practice and therefore cannot legitimately be considered as a solution that reduces the health risks. Current estimates by the World Health Organization state that over 100 million women and girls have been affected by some form of genital cutting.
This practice dates to the time of the pharoahs in Egypt and is perpetuated in a given community for a variety of reasons. When the majority of women have been circumcised, those who are not are considered abnormal by themselves or their families. This has tremendous significance in terms of the desirability of a young woman for marriage which provides a major means for achieving economic strength and independence; thus, being unsuitable for marriage further worsens a woman's ability to prosper. In addition, circumcision is believed to ensure cleanliness, chastity and to minimize the sexual appetite of women and thus reduce the likelihood that they will bring shame on themselves or their families through sexual indiscretions. The guarantee of a young woman's purity further enhances her attractiveness to potential suitors. Religious leaders in many of the communities that practice FGM also support the custom, linking the moral benefits listed above to religion; therefore, a devoted believer who wants to carry out religious duties to her or his utmost is convinced that FGM is associated with righteousness and purity, both valued by all religions, including Islam.
The circumcision of girls, in any form, predated Islam by many centuries. It was practiced in some parts of Arabia at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and was evidently a custom of the time that may have been a practice of some but not all of the local tribes. As a pre-established tradition, therefore, female circumcision was not introduced by the Prophet to the early Muslim community. Several sayings (hadith) of the Prophet indicate that it may have been the norm for women to be circumcised (see al-Muwatta of Imam Malik) but the extent of circumcision, excision or mutilation is not specified. In addition, the existence of female circumcision in the community does not necessarily mean that it was to be recommended or made obligatory. Indeed, it is possible to argue that any form of female genital cutting actually violates very basic precepts in Islam.
The Qur'an, as a text providing mainly general guidelines (with some injunctions or laws spelled out specifically) does not address the issue of circumcision of either males or females. The Qur'an does however refer to the sexual relationship in marriage as one of mutual satisfaction that is considered a mercy from Allah (swt):
It is lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the (day's) fast: they are as a garment for you and you are as a garment for them (2:187)...and He has put love and mercy between you (30:21)
Several sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) highlight the importance of giving and deriving pleasure from intimacy between a husband and wife. This is clear from sayings that informed the community regarding the types of sexual behavior that were considered lawful and from others that addressed the sexual needs of men and women. Clearly, any act that interferes with a fulfilling sexual relationship contradicts the essence of Islam based both on Qur'an and hadith.
In addition, the argument for ensuring chastity with a physically debilitating procedure blatantly violates the premise of individual accountability exemplified in the Qur'an (17:15, see below). Sadly, the notion that honor and shame fall so heavily on the shoulders of the women of any given family is pervasive throughout the Muslim world, including those countries where FGM is not known. As a result of patriarchal influences, a woman's sexuality is something that does not belong to her, but rather is ultimately controlled by the dominant male of her family (father, elder brother, husband, etc.) Yet, again, the Qur'an explicitly tells Muslims that no one can bear the burden of another with respect to sin, dishonor, or shame:
Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden (17:15)...and if one weighed down by his load calls upon (another) to help him carry it, nothing thereof may be carried (by that other), even if it be one's near of kin (35:18)
Those who advocate for FGM from an Islamic perspective commonly quote the following hadith to argue that it is required as part of the Sunnah or Tradition of the Prophet:
Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable (classified as mursal, i.e. missing a link in the chain of transmitters in that none was among the original Companions of the Prophet.) In addtion, it is found in only one of the six undisputed, authentic hadith collections, that is in the Sunan of Abu Dawud (Chapter 1888). According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.
Even if the words attributed to the Prophet were actually spoken by him, an analysis of the text itself reveals that he is making a statement that does not translate into an injunction for circumcision. Interestingly, many leading scholars of the four major Sunni schools of thought considered female circumcision to be at least recommended if not required. Yet we cannot ascertain from the hadith what type of circumcision was being performed or even which body part was being discussed. The scholars later specified in general terms that only a small piece of skin (the clitoris or its hood, presumably, or perhaps part of the labia minora) the size of a "cock's comb" (the small appendage that sits atop the head of a rooster) was to be removed. At the very least then, one can say that infibulation goes far beyond the description given here and so this hadith cannot be used to justify the more severe forms of mutilation. If a Muslim truly believes that female circumcision is part of the Sunnah, she or he wouldn't have enough detailed specifications to know how to carry out the procedure since the terms as mentioned above are so vague.
Despite the opinion of the scholars, female circumcision never became widespread among Muslims around the world and is essentially non-existent among the native inhabitants of Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim countries today. In contrast, male circumcision is universally practiced among Muslims; this is considered the continuation of a practice enjoined upon Abraham and his followers and is explicitly mentioned in several well-known sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Some proponents of female circumcision argue that removing the clitoral hood (the anatomical equivalent of the foreskin of the penis) can enhance a woman's sexual experience which would not violate her rights to sexual fulfillment. Yet, it is practically impossible when examining the genitals of a young girl (and especially an infant), to distinguish between the hood and the clitoris itself. Also an exposed clitoris that is stimulated due to friction from clothing would result in discomfort and pain and would not necessarily enhance a woman's ability to achieve sexual fulfillment through orgasm.
Islam is a religion that guarantees the integrity of the human being- both in body and in spirit. Female genital cutting violates that integrity, insulting Allah the Creator Whose creation needs no improvement:
Such is He who knows all that is beyond the reach of a created being's perception as well as all that can be witnessed by a creature's senses or mind: the Almighty Dispenser of Grace, Who makes excellent everything He creates (32:6-7)
It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape- and made your shapes beautiful - (40:64)
Our Sustainer! Thou hast not created (any of) this in vain (3:191)
And spend in Allah's cause and let not your own hands contribute to your own destruction and persevere in doing good: behold, Allah loves the doers of good (2:195)
Muslims are called upon by Allah (swt) to enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong. Clearly, mutilating a woman's genitalia in the name of Islam violates the most sacred tenets of our faith. Therefore, we must oppose this practice and join efforts with others who are working to educate women and men about its harmful effects. We applaud the work of Muslim leaders who challenge the view that female circumcision is required in Islam. These views have been expressed by Dr. Hassan Hathout, renowned Muslim gynecologist and scholar, and by Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi of Al-Azhar and Sheikh Abdel Ghaffer Mansour. Like many others, they urge the discontinuation of this harmful cultural tradition due to the numerous devastating consequences that result.
The Muslim Women's League strongly supports the work done by organizations and individuals who are from the countries and communities most affected by FGM. To find out more about ongoing efforts, we encourage those interested to begin by visiting the following website on the Internet: FGM Network and Message Board:
2. Subject discussed previously on this site:

'FGM; Femlale Genital Mutilation'

About marrying a Non muslim 01-08-2004 Bohras and Reform
Bohri - Sunni Marriage issues... 12-09-2003 Bohras and Reform
Example of Bohra Muslim women, Modi said--- 09-26-2003 Bohras and Reform
mutilation 08-30-2003 Bohras and Reform 08-23-2003 Bohras and Reform
Kaaba - Once a Hindu Temple 07-27-2003 Bohras and Reform
GAY Acceptance in Progressive Dawoodi Bohras 05-06-2003 Bohras and Reform
Bush's war of terror on innocent Iraqis 04-11-2003 Bohras and Reform
separation of men and women in the masjid 04-01-2003 Bohras and Reform
Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron? 11-22-2002 Bohras and Reform
"The lion shall lay down with the lamb." 10-27-2002 Bohras and Reform
Where do they get these Amil Sahebs 09-19-2002 Bohras and Reform
Another Intersting article on FGM (Is female circumcision allowed in Islam? ) 08-31-2002 Bohras and Reform
News from Udaipur-- 08-30-2002 Bohras and Reform
Only we are true muslims 08-17-2002 Bohras and Reform
Issue of cross-marriage 08-02-2002 Bohras and Reform
The marriage system--the killer of love--the cage 05-23-2002 Bohras and Reform
Touching a na-mehram 05-14-2002 Bohras and Reform
What is true ibaadat? 05-13-2002 Bohras and Reform
Why are the pictures of women blurred out ? 05-09-2002 Bohras and Reform
RAGE OF BOHRI WOMEN 04-10-2002 Bohras and Reform
SLAVERY & ISLAM 01-30-2002 Bohras and Reform
Ismaili, Bohra, and Twelver conception of Imamat 01-28-2002 Bohras and Reform
sila fitra 12-20-2001 Bohras and Reform
Female Genital Mutilation now a crime in Kenya - what will the Kotharis do now? 12-11-2001 Bohras and Reform
nikkah without misaq 11-11-2001 Bohras and Reform
Misaq - who's twisting facts 09-10-2001 Bohras and Reform
SAIFUDDIN AND BURHANUDDIN'S ATROCITIES (Excerpts from the previous thread) 08-15-2001 Bohras and Reform
Women circumcision 07-12-2001 Bohras and Reform
Artists in our community 07-11-2001 Bohras and Reform
Bohra and Ithna Asharis Shiahs 07-03-2001 Bohras and Reform
New book 05-29-2001 Bohras and Reform
Bohras belief regarding Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman 05-22-2001 Bohras and Reform
Worth reading! 05-09-2001 Bohras and Reform
FEMALE CIRCUMCISION 04-18-2001 Bohras and Reform
marrying a non muslim 03-27-2001 Bohras and Reform
Wedding rules in the Bohra Community 02-27-2001 Bohras and Reform
FGM in the bohra community 02-19-2001 Bohras and Reform
Position Paper on FGM/Female Circumcision 01-19-2001 Bohras and Reform
Five Requests 01-19-2001 Bohras and Reform
Islam the Great 01-12-2001 Bohras and Reform

3. Another interesting Article and a eye opner on FGM.
The link is :
Most Pakistanis would be shocked to know that that their brethren-in-faith circumcise their daughters as duty under Islam. Some Muslim countries like Egypt, Kenya, Senegal, where this practice is rife, have reportedly banned the circumcision of women, but it is still carried out in areas not monitored by the state agencies. As a result, the total number of girls circumcised and those at risk has not gone down. The difficulty faced in some Muslim states is that the official fiqh makes it either ‘obligatory’ or ‘permitted’. Ten million women in Africa and the Middle East are at risk. The countries where the practice is observed are: Kenya, Nigeria, Mali, Upper Volta, Ivory Coast, Egypt, Mozambique, Sudan and Southern Algeria in Africa; and the two Yemens, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Jordan in the Middle East. The followers are not exclusively Muslim. Coptic Christians, Catholics and Protestants in these countries also circumcise their women.
Types of female circumcision: There is three types of female circumcision: sunna circumcision (Egypt, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Sierra Leone, Mauritania, Nigeria, Oman Yemen, Saudi Arabia, UAE); infibulation or removal of clitoris and scraping of labia (Sudan); Pharaonic circumcision (Somalia and wherever the Somalians are located, in Southern Egypt, Red Sea coast, Djibouti). The last named is the most cruel of the three, involving removal of clitoris and labia and the sewing of the aperture as a kind of lock. Respected President of International Islamic University, Islamabad, Dr Hasan al-Shafie, in a rejoinder sent to the author of this article (TFT 9 August 2002), observed: ‘At times – for instance when Ahmed quotes from Dr. Azzah Karam on the issue of female circumcision – he seems to ridicule, which is unbecoming of any serious scholarly undertaking. He concurs to her view, that infibulation has not been mentioned in the Qur’an as if Qur’an were the only source of Shariah. Moreover, that the issue of infibulation has been left to the discretion of the Egyptian society and does not enjoy any religious obligation. How can she (Karam) be ignorant of the many articles published in Egyptian newspapers by Dr. Muhammad Saleem al-Awwa who has very categorical stated that infibulation is merely a habit and does not carry a religious mandate.’
I have to plead guilty to the charge of not knowing the subject. I had simply opined in my earlier article that female circumcision should have been discouraged and eliminated by the ulema of Egypt because there is no injunction in the Quran requiring Muslims to circumcise their daughters. It was a naïve assumption on my part. I discovered upon deeper investigation that the evil of female circumcision has persisted because of religious sanction. I am now aware that many scholars of Egypt have written to condemn the evil practice, including Dr Muhammad Saleem al-Awwa. A Norwegian Muslim, Anne Sofie Roald, has brought out the details of the practice in her book Women in Islam: the Western Experience. She notes that during the 1994 Habitat Conference in Cairo the subject of female circumcision had become explosive among the participants as the CNN reported the death of two Egyptian girls during the operation of genital-cutting performed on them. The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi in 1994 made an official statement in which he challenged the belief that there were any authentic (sahih) hadiths or even good (hasan) hadiths which permitted female circumcision or make it compulsory. But Roald concludes; ‘This statement is interesting as many Sheikhs l-Azhar, the Highest Islamic authority in Egypt, have made fatwas in favour of compulsory female circumcision’.
An African ritual: Female circumcision is practised by the Muslims of Indonesia and Malaysia too. At least one community in India and Pakistan, the Bohras, also practise it, although it may have dwindled with the passage of time. It is likely that communities originating in Africa have retained an ancient ritual based on the fear of female sexuality. The pharaohs were all circumcised, as has been discovered upon examination of their mummies. It develops that while female circumcision (khitan) is acceptable to African Muslims the more cruel and mutilating form called infibulation is not, even though Sudan and Somalia still have strong evidence of it. The wife of the spiritual ruler of Sudan Hasan al-Turabie, Wisal, herself from the family of the Mahdi, spearheads the campaign against infibulation (not female circumcision) but fears that the custom may a long time to disappear. Most knowledgeable persons are agreed that foreign pressure would not remove this evil practice; only a movement of reform from within the Muslim society might end it. For instance, the Somali citizens of Sweden have decided to give up infibulation, while retaining what is known as sunna circumcision, after discussing the problem within the Islamic tradition and discourse. Western criticism of the practice, far from being helpful, will harm the trend towards reform.
The West is aware of the Muslim efforts to eradicate the curse of female genital mutilation. Egyptian scholar Muhammad al-Ghazzali (d. 1996) is reported to have held the view that female circumcision is an evil practice for which there is no evidence of the Prophet PBUH practising on his own daughters, thus indicating that this is not an Islamic custom. It is obvious that the matter cannot be classified as an Islamic issue since not all Muslims regard it as sanctioned. According to Muslim scholarly sources the schools of Islamic fiqh are divided over the issue. The Hanafi and Maliki schools think that while male circumcision was sunna, female circumcision was makrama (noble). The Hanbali school also thinks on the same lines, but the hadith on which these points of view are based is weak. The Shafei school of fiqh however regards both male and female circumcision as obligatory. Here the methodology is that reliance is made on authentic hadiths decreeing circumcision in general. There are certain variations of practice which must be kept in mind. The Maliki law encourages female circumcision. Sudan, under Maliki law practises female circumcision, but Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, under the same law, do not. More surprisingly, Egypt and Yemen are the only Shafei-law states that practise female circumcision; in Palestine, Lebanon and Syria, under the same law, the practice is unknown. That the Shafei fiqh is responsible for the spread of the practice is proved by the fact that Malaysia and Indonesia, placed in a region where female circumcision is unknown, do practise because of the domination of the fiqh.
For and against opinion: When the Grand Mufti of Egypt issued his fatwa against female circumcision in 1994, there was a conservative reaction to it. Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhairi, a salafi scholar of Egypt responded in 1996 by examining the hadiths on which female circumcision was deemed to be obligatory. Unlike other scholars, including those of the Hanbali school, who thought it acceptable (mubah), Zuhairi decided that the said hadiths actually made female circumcision obligatory. He added his own theories to the issue by saying that the intent of the circumcision was to lessen the sexual desire of the woman. He then also proposed, without much empirical proof, that women living in hot climates need circumcision because heat leads to the growth of the part needing to be circumcised, while the women living in cold climates do not need it. He presumed that women living in cold climates were possessed of low sexual desire. Zuhairi also ‘explained away’ a statement attributed to the famous Islamic scholar Hasan al-Basri (d. 782), that a contemporary of the Prophet PBUH, when invited to a feast celebrating the circumcision of a girl, declined to attend because he had not seen the practice in the time of the Prophet PBUH. Zuhairi thinks that the incident only proved that while male circumcision was to be celebrated female one was not. He also quotes hadiths from Bukhari and Tirmizi and the Musnad to prove that the practice was obligatory under the Prophet, but not all scholars accept his reasoning.
It is interesting to note that Egyptian women belonging to the Muslim Brotherhood are divided on the issue on the basis of their background. Those who come from the urban areas reject female circumcision while those who come from the countryside even think that circumcision is an act of beautification. The salafi thinking is divided between Europe and Egypt. While the salafi in Egypt thinks that circumcision lessens desire the one in Europe thinks that it actually enhances it. Outside of Egypt and Sudan, the Arabs rarely think that female circumcision is an Islamic ritual. In Egypt the Islamists support female circumcision in their opposition to the Egyptian government on the basis of the claim that the government was kowtowing to the West by banning the ritual. Many reform-minded Arabs believe that the right way to encourage morality was Islamic upbringing and not sexually inhibiting female circumcision.
An observable trend in the Arab world is to avoid discussing the subject of female circumcision because of the potential in to become explosive. Perhaps this is not the right attitude. It is better if the issue is not treated as a human rights problem by the West. Yet it is difficult to understand how one can avoid this happening if the Muslims themselves do not address it and instead declare that it is a peripheral or ‘internal’ issue which should not be raised at all. In Pakistan there are many practices generally condemned by our leading scholars and the ulema, but they go on being observed as Islamic edicts. There are many clerics who practise what is called halala, the obligatory marriage (often to the cleric himself) to a third party if the divorced couple wants to remarry. There are cases when a cleric after having promised to divorce the woman after halala has actually kept her because she preferred him over her divorced husband. Thus some clerics have acquired more than one wife. Muslims must think of reform in the light of Islamic principles and gradually come out of bad custom where it has latched on to faith.

4. ... ation.html

5. ... lation.htm
Amnesty Int'l
Geographical distribution of female genital mutilation
An estimated 135 million of the world's girls and women have undergone genital mutilation, and two million girls a year are at risk of mutilation - approximately 6,000 per day. It is practised extensively in Africa and is common in some countries in the Middle East. It also occurs, mainly among immigrant communities, in parts of Asia and the Pacific, North and Latin America and Europe.
FGM is reportedly practised in more than 28 African countries (see FGM in Africa: Information by Country (ACT 77/07/97)). There are no figures to indicate how common FGM is in Asia. It has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Malaysia, although very little is known about the practice in these countries. In India, a small Muslim sect, the Daudi Bohra, practise clitoridectomy.

Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:37 am

Read interesting discussion

Female Circumcision -The hadith in question at


Kaka Akela
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Unread post by Kaka Akela » Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:07 pm

First of all, all the males (mostly bachelors) are discussing the female genital mutilation when they don't know what a female genital even looks like.
Learn to know that Clitoris is the main sexual organ in women which is equivalent to man's dick-head. Both male and female genitals have a hood on top of this main sexual organ. In men it(the hood or the excessive covering over the dick-head) is removed within first 3 days of birth or somewhere around that time.
Among women the same hood is removed when they are around 7 years old as at birth time this hood has not developed yet and is not even visible. Actually in woman it is not removed but it is cut barely enough to expose it for maximum pleasure for herself. This is the Islamic way. People not knowing the facts have the nightmares of FGMs similar to the ones done by African tribes.Clitoris is never cut, otherwise it would be a crime and it would be equivalent to cutting off a man's dick-head. I think we all should relax and not harp too much about things we don't fully know.Following the Islamic injunctions about physical aspects will always provide you with maximum pleasure at minimum cost(can't find a better word here).

Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:06 pm

.Dear Kaka

I am not Bohra and not familiar with the extent of surgery. I thank you for detail explaination. I am sure you are right. It will help if you post same explaination on the other site. I believe one of moderator there is a secular Bohra sister.

I will not harp on this subject anymore.


Kaka Akela
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Unread post by Kaka Akela » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:57 pm

Br. Muslim First: WAS
I started from the other site where the topic is locked and closed and can not post a reply.

My "harping comment" was not specifically directed at you, if you feel offended , I am sorry.

Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:45 am

Br. Kaka

You are not harping. You have given information which I did not read naywhere.

It wa me who kept harping on this subject.


Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:49 am

Br. Kaka

I suggest you post same explaination at

I believe you have to sighn-up and post a introduction there. I read their chit-chat but do not participate.


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Unread post by mumineen » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:21 pm

Please refer to various other posts re.this issue: ... 61630-R2CW

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Unread post by Shahu » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:21 pm

Dear friends,

The adjoining news was published in Los Angeles Times dated November 2, 2006. ... &cset=true

There are several customs which are not mentioned in Quran and Sharia, yet they are prevalent in many sects of Islam. Case in point is Female Genital Excision: Female Khatna or clitorictomy as is called. This procedure involves removal of, part or full, clitoris of a young girl. Idea behind this practice is that if clitoris is removed at young age, the girl’s sexual desire will stay limited or undeveloped and that she will not runaway with some one bringing dishonor to her family or clan. This ritual was originally practiced by several tribes of North Africa. Even after converting to Islam, these tribes continued to practice this ritual of female circumcision. Bohras, Khojas, Druze, and other sect follow Ismaili Imams who ruled Egypt up to 1130 A.D. These Imams, who needed support of African tribes such as Kutama tribe, didn’t ban the practice; over the years it became a religious ritual among their followers.

Among Bohras and others, when a girl is about five years old, she is taken to a community-lady to perform genital excision or clitorictomy or Khatna. This community-lady doesn’t have any medical training. When the little girl be on way to genital excision, she is lied about as to what is to happen. After arriving to community-lady, the girl finds out what is happening. She realizes that her mother grand mother or her close relative lied to her. The little girl cries and throws temper tantrums and many times the ‘surgery’ gets botched, injuring the genitals of this little girl, that in future will ruin her and her husband’s sex life. Almost every Bohra girl, irrespective of the education level of her parents, has undergone ritual.

It is mind boggling that very highly educated Bohras living in US & other foreign countries take their daughters to India or Pakistan for clitorictomy or Khatna! It is rumored that several Female Medical Bohra Doctors in US perform this surgery as a community service; even though they could end up in jail if found out. It takes only one complaint to put some one involved, behind the bars. However every thing remains secret. Some times without the knowledge of parents, some relative will take the little girl and get clitorictomy performed. Indian Government and social agencies remain silent, because of big clout wielded by the community.

There are no benefits from the practice; on the contrary, it degrades women, damages their psyche, and damages sexual life of both partners. Since little girls are lied on the way to circumcision, they lose of trust in their parents and grand parents.

This ritual, among practicing sects, could be abolished by just one of Firman or order from their religious heads. This practice is so private that if it is defied, no one will know and could be silently kicked out. Yet the members of community, especially women, are so fearful, they dare not defy.

Asghar Vasanwala

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Unread post by SAJJAD » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:06 am

Father convicted in genital mutilation By ERRIN HAINES, Associated Press Writer
Wed Nov 1, 6:48 PM ET

LAWRENCEVILLE, Ga. - An Ethiopian immigrant was convicted Wednesday of the genital mutilation of his 2-year-old daughter and was sentenced to 10 years in prison in what was believed to be the first such criminal case in the United States.


Khalid Adem, 30, was found guilty of aggravated battery and cruelty to children. Prosecutors said he used scissors to remove his daughter's clitoris in his family's Atlanta-area apartment in 2001. The child's mother, Fortunate Adem, said she did not discover it until more than a year later.

Adem, who had no criminal record, could have been sentenced to up to 40 years in prison. He held his face in his hands and wept loudly after the jury's verdict was read.

During her father's trial, the girl, now 7, clutched a teddy bear as she testified on videotape that her father "cut me on my private part."

"This child has suffered, will suffer, the rest of her life," Judge Richard Winegarden told Adem during sentencing.

Federal law specifically bans the practice of genital mutilation, but many states do not have a law addressing it. Georgia lawmakers, with the support of the girl's mother, passed an anti-mutilation law last year. But Adem was not tried under that law since it did not exist when his daughter was cut.

During the trial, Adem testified he never circumcised his daughter or asked anyone else to do so. He said he grew up in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, and considers the practice more prevalent in rural areas.

Adem's attorney acknowledged that the girl had been cut, but implied that the family of the girl's mother, who immigrated from South Africa, may have been responsible. The Adems divorced three years ago, and attorney Mark Hill suggested that the couple's daughter was coached to testify against her father by her mother, who has full custody of the child.

Adem, who cried throughout the trial and during his testimony, was asked what he thought of someone who believes in the practice. He replied: "The word I can say is 'mind in the gutter.' He is a moron."

The practice crosses ethnic and cultural lines and is not tied to a particular religion. Activists say it is intended to deny women sexual pleasure. In its most extreme form, the clitoris and parts of the labia are removed and the labia that remain are stitched together.

Knives, razors or even sharp stones are usually used, according to a 2001 department report. The tools are frequently not sterilized, and often, many girls are circumcised at the same ceremony, leading to infection.

It is unknown how many girls have died from the procedure, either during the cutting or from infections, or years later in childbirth. Nightmares, depression, shock and feelings of betrayal are common psychological side effects, according to a 2001 federal report.

Since 2001, the State Department estimates that up to 130 million women worldwide have undergone circumcision.

Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:58 pm


Egypt outlaws female circumcision.

Would Bohras follow?

Sajid Zafar
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Unread post by Sajid Zafar » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:03 pm

Why it is your concern?

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Unread post by Humlog » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:46 am

Sajid Zafar
Why it is your concern?

In any gatherings or functions when there are foreighn dignitaries present, Kothar and Co. make it a point to mention about how Sayedna teaches his followers to obey the rules of the land where they live. So the question is will Kothar instruct Bohras in Egypt to follow this particular law of Egypt?

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Unread post by Sajid Zafar » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:43 am

Ustad Bhai,

I am totally against female gentile mutilation (FGM). It is crime against humanity. I also current Kothar regime and present Syedna and his so called royal courted. The atrocities this present regime committed against bohras is no better than Charles Taylor of Liberia.

But that doesn't mean that people outside the community lecture us on issues which are none of their business. People like MF first clean their own backyard before lecturing us. In fact, these people have made so much damage to Islam that no other religion has done. Just quoting reference from Quran and Sunnah is just not sufficed. When it comes to educate the women and give women equal rights these folks quote references from Quran and Sunnah with distorted interpretations (what ever suites best to their ulterior objectives). Progs. and silent Orths. are well familiar with such issues. FGM starts at individual home if we curb this practice at home we simply don't need any government laws. But awareness and our respect to dignity of women are pre-cursers.

Average Bohra
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Unread post by Average Bohra » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:28 am

Originally posted by Muslim First:

Egypt outlaws female circumcision.

Would Bohras follow?
Would Wahabis follow ?

Al Zulfiqar
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Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:57 pm

the bohra leaders have been following since the times of taher saifuddin, total male genital removal, i.e. the absolute rejection of the bohra manhood!

witness the number of impotent, weak, and indecisive bohras amongst our midst. the bohra leadership has practiced the most complete form of MGM that the world has ever seen, thereby reducing most of our menfolk to the status of gays and pansies. even amongst those bohras where their equipment does work, it has been made largely inactive, and suffices only for brief frustrated bouts of self pleasuring.... :D

Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:48 pm


Wahabis do not practice FGM. In India Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims do not practice FGM.


Average Bohra
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Unread post by Average Bohra » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:53 pm

Who's speaking of just India ? The article you posted was about Egypt, how about Sunni's in Africa ?

Muslim First
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Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:05 am

Some Sunnis in Africa (FYI Egypt is ni Africa)follow their tribal custom.


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Unread post by Right » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:16 am

Brother Human,

We should discuss reagrding female circumcission under this thread.

I fully agree with you that there is no necesscity to do such thing to female, neither it is Sunnah by Prophet nor it is benefical for health.

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Unread post by ATH » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:48 am

Right wrote:I fully agree with you that there is no necesscity to do such thing to female, neither it is Sunnah by Prophet nor it is benefical for health. ... cision.htm - Circumcision: how it is done and the rulings on it - The health and religious benefits of circumcision - Medical benefits of female circumcision

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Unread post by Conscíous » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:21 am

Guest wrote:The year is 2001.As human beings,we have progressed dramatically during the past century.Equal rights for all,right? Wrong. Not at least for bohris because of Burhanuddin's regime ("Thug Kotharis")- they imposing ridiculous "fatwas" for past more than fifty years and robbing the community.Their belief in equality for all not exist,barbaric and mutilating practices prevent some women from enjoying the simple unspoken natural gift of sexual pleasure.<p>Female Circumcision Operations are a prime example of a cult type religion practice that has potentially great medical implications. The emotional and physical implications of this demeaning practice need to be stopped immediately. Women who have undergone such an operation have emotional problems such as anger and rage. In some cases, these women have resorted to feelings of embarrassment and acceptance. Medical complications can include sexual dysfunction caused by mental and physical trauma,scarring, and lacerations in the genital area. The continued use of this medical procedure is indeed a tragedy. It seems that strong measures could be imposed on to stop the mutilation.After all, isn't mutilation a crime?
female genital mutilation is a serious criminal a fence, with big jail time in my country. This fanatic bohras don't see women as human being.. For them, they are for making baby's, cooking, cleaning and as sex slave. If a woman has more then one partner she is a whore, while it's ok for men!! I believe, the whole reason for FGM is to control women psychology.

I wonder, what Allah "think's" of FGM?

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Unread post by Human » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:11 pm

Right wrote:Brother Human,

We should discuss reagrding female circumcission under this thread.

I fully agree with you that there is no necesscity to do such thing to female, neither it is Sunnah by Prophet nor it is benefical for health.
Thanks for re-activating this thread Bro Right. I also admire your support against the practice of female genital mutilation. It is something very wrong on moral and medical grounds.

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Unread post by Human » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:20 pm

Makes me laugh to read the benefits of female genital mutilation. How people can manage to stir up advantages of practices that are clearly harmful; also the information on that website is not from a credible resource and only stands as much chance as an abde purchasing a website space and typing making up stuff like advantage of wearing topi, keeping dadhi and wearing saaya.

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Unread post by Human » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:34 pm

BooM wrote:If a woman has more then one partner she is a whore, while it's ok for men!!
I agree with this totally! On logical grounds, I did raise this concern on a thread on Islam today and after having a fair bit of arguments, I'm now reading a non-arabic version of Quran to understand Islam better.

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Unread post by Human » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:04 pm

ATH wrote: ... cision.htm - Circumcision: how it is done and the rulings on it - The health and religious benefits of circumcision - Medical benefits of female circumcision
ATH, I've referred to the links you posted and all I can say is it sounds like a commentary from a right wing person. The websites you quoted are not credible sources as I mentioned before, they are only as good as things published on or zeninfosys or
Here's some information from a credible source fully backed with medical information. You can try to cross check some medical websites that see things from a neutral point of view and find out for yourself if female genital mutilation is good or bad.