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Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:49 am
by Moiz_Dhaanu
dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:17 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/heal ... collection

Another article ... the below in particular captures the thoughts of some Bohras quite well
Well , this all boils down to one simple thing... a dawoodi -bohra can be as much god fearing , wise, smart, decent human, etc etc...but if they keep on following an illiterate, male chauvinist, anger-prone dumb impostor as their leader, they will end up in such mess more often then they would expect.
Ask yourselves ,have we ever found our community in such a self embarrassing situation before during previous duat's times?

In fact, under this impostor(DMBS) ,such is the downward spiral, of our once respectable community, that we have more affinity towards cattle-pee drinkers RSS, than to other muslim communities...what a shame !!
Once Burhanuddin mola(RA) said in Waaz, 'Muslims are like outer walls of a fortress within which mumins reside. so we should keep good relations with them, because when we face danger, they will be our first line of defence"

But DMBS has done the exact opposite.
A leader(DMBS) who makes the lives of his followers shameful and in Danger is not a leader.

DMBS = Dawedaar Mufaddal Bhai Saheb

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:09 am
by SBM

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:14 am
by SBM
Once Burhanuddin mola(RA) said in Waaz, 'Muslims are like outer walls of a fortress within which mumins reside. so we should keep good relations with them, because when we face danger, they will be our first line of defence"
How come during his tenure as Dai, Bohra leadership never reached out to other Muslim Communities, invite them to their Markaz
Can you list how many Bohra Aamils invited other Muslim leaders to their Markarz for a get together during the SMB's tenure.
Inviting Corrupt Muslims leaders to his Saify Mahal and buying their affiliations does NOT count.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:15 am
by Biradar
dal-chaval-palidu wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:17 am


Some worry the case is stoking anti-Muslim sentiment, though cutting is not in the Quran or practiced in many Muslim societies. And some Bohras who oppose cutting nonetheless feel the defendants are being unfairly demonized for a practice endorsed by their religion’s leadership.

“I don’t want to be pro the practice, but I don’t want it to be exaggerated into something completely barbaric,” said Maryah Haidery, 37, who comes from a Bohra family in New Jersey and had never spoken publicly about her cutting before.

Ms. Haidery, who does medical writing for pharmaceutical companies, said she was “very concerned about this violation” in Michigan, but also “taken aback by how vilified that Michigan doctor had become.”
It is good that this woman agrees that FGM is "a practice endorsed by their religion’s leadership." Give this is true, what should the rest of us do? Not "unfairly" target them? Consider it okay just because Muffy says it is okay? The reality of the matter is that FGM is not just illegal but also unethical. It is a sign of rampant misogyny, perhaps the most extreme form of misogyny one can imagine. Combined with the other anti-women fatwaas which the mad-man Muffy regularly yells and rave from the takhat, the Bohras appear to be well on their way to humiliating and degrading themselves. No need to blame any "anti-Muslim" sentiments. Blame Muffy. He is fully responsible.

The Michigan "doctor", more properly called Kasaai or Butcher, needs to be vilified and humiliated further. We need to bring an end to her butchering and make it impossible for her to find employment or lead a respectable life. We want the Muffy community to be humiliated and shamed. Then, and only then, will a real change be possible.

Incidentally, it is really telling that all these people are worried about "anti-Muslim sentiment", vilification of the "doctor" etc, but not an iota for the girls who were harmed, and likely continue to be harmed! Goes to show their priority on protecting the community and Muffy but not innocent little girls.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:06 pm
by yfm
I was shocked that SMB who claims she is a woman, I should categorize her as "" banned me from this cite for a couple of weeks because I did not agree with her on the position of FGM. It just shows that this cite is made up of as BAD a group as they complain about the Kothars. Sheer Hypocrisy.

What else can I say of a group that hides behind their mothers aprons.

Salaam. :roll:

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:13 pm
by yfm
You keep on criticizing Seyedna Muffadal Mowla, when you no longer are part of his group. I can not understand why you continue to do that. I presume it is because you are not satisfied with having left the jamat. It would appear that you want to be in the mainstream but do not want to follow Seyedna Muffadal Mowla. How can that be possible. I think you should stop barking on the wrong trees and enjoy your community and leave those who want to follow seydna Muffadal Mowla to follow their desires. :D

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:35 pm
by yfm
I must write that these so called activists who have already undergone Khatna and now want to use ti to humiliate the bohra community just want attention to promote their businesses or their own private but yet monetary agendas.

Shame on you. I believe our Mowla Seyedna Muffadal when he claims that this is practice was ordained by our beloved prophet Muhammad (SAW).

Shame on those who want to shame the bohra community.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:04 pm
by SBM
I believe our Mowla Seyedna Muffadal when he claims that this is practice was ordained by our beloved prophet Muhammad (SAW).
yfm
I should listen to Biradar's suggestion to ignore people like you, But you spineless creature, Keep Prophet Mohammed (SAW) out of your twisted argument. Prophet never ordained FGM otherwise 100% of the Muslim Community will be doing like they do for Male Circumcision which is also followed by Jews.
Can you answer my question, which I posted regarding SMB's era of Muslim interaction?

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:16 pm
by Biradar
SBM wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:04 pm
I believe our Mowla Seyedna Muffadal when he claims that this is practice was ordained by our beloved prophet Muhammad (SAW).
yfm
I should listen to Biradar's suggestion to ignore people like you, But you spineless creature, Keep Prophet Mohammed (SAW) out of your twisted argument. Prophet never ordained FGM otherwise 100% of the Muslim Community will be doing like they do for Male Circumcision which is also followed by Jews.
Can you answer my question, which I posted regarding SMB's era of Muslim interaction?
yfm, likely another avatar of our beloved hare-brained buddy with eight wives, eight sabeels, eight times eight children, is simply a troll. Or, a half-man suffering from ED who needs to control the women in his life with the knife. He is a typical napusakaling masquerading as a man. Best to ignore him.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:20 am
by yfm
My Dear Brothers like the prodigal son: why are you so anguished about me. What have I done or do to tickle such wrath from you brethren?

To be honest with you, I was leaning towards the Progressive Dawoody Bohras, but the dialogue and discussions have turned me back to Seyedna Mowla Muffadal. I can not but help remembering that our Prophet was also persecuted and had stones thrown at Him, and I am sure those stone throwers must have been exactly the replicas of you.

I must believe our Mowla Muffadal. After all we may have beef against the organization and how the Kothars are treating us. But I gave you the example of SMB who demonstrated the same hypocrisy. We should separate the Religious values from the material ones. There fore I do not have time to elaborate on this except as a bohra I should be freel to choose whoever I desire without any repercussions and the more repercussions and abuse from the progressive dawoody brethrens, the more I believe in the Seyedna Muffadal and I am sure he is making us follow what our Prophet wanted us to follow. :D

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:50 am
by dal-chaval-palidu
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index ... on_ex.html

Here's how Michigan's genital mutilation suspects explain female circumcision

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:01 am
by allbird
This FGM issue is spreading like wild fire, every instagram, facebook, whatsapp...etc all social / TV media is discussing and a Lady wearing bohra Rida or male Dr wearing Topi in seen on the front pages. These 2 people have become world famous, which is good for their publicity but on the hindsight where do i hide. My non-muslim and Muslim contacts including white, black, Hispanic, Asian, Arabs of all colour and breed who knows me, walks towards me just to clarify that what they show on Media is TRUE OR FALSE. They just want to confirm media stories are just for their TRP or TRUTH. And i stand dumbfounded trying to explain myself and where do i stand on this issue. Question to all those who believe Syedna Muffaddal is doing good job and right job what should i explain to them. If i tell them in Rasuallah SAW sunnah then they will talk BAD about Rasuallah SAW they will not say bad things about Syedna Muffaddal since he is just following what Rasullah SAW said. If this is not part of Rasuallah SAW sunnah and this practice is just another practice from regional India to dominate women folk like SATI, and WITCHES or Tantrik then Rasuallah SAW gets all name calling. With current prevailing situation of ISIL and Terrorism Rasualllah SAW even after this death 1400 years later, he is still coping it. Will he ever fine peace even after his death 1400 years later. And are we also causing him unrest meaning are we somehow knowingly or unknowingly causing distrust to his Ummah. Bohras are not the chosen race and we are NOT that sect which Rasuallah SAW mentioned out of 72 groups of his Ummah the righteous one. Only Allah knows the best

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:49 am
by SBM
YFM
Seyedna Muffadal and I am sure he is making us follow what our Prophet wanted us to follow.
Really, your Moula is following what Prophet did, what a laugh? Did Prophet live is Ayashi? Did he ask his followers to do a FAKHIR NAJWA? Did he demand BIG SALAAM for Qadamboosi? Did he ask his followers to do Sajda to him?
Oh btw you said, people use to throw stones at Prophet and he used to smile and would not retort back, SO TRUE so why did your Moula SMS gave Laanat to his own Uncle and Mazoon he accepted for 50 years
On a second thought, why donot you thrown stones at your Moula and see if acts like our beloved Prophet or he acts like Yazidi Badshaa?

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:53 am
by SBM
allbird
Why are you in a such a quandary. Simple answer, it is not from Rasullaha otherwise STF would not have come out with the statement he issued.
Simple answer, this is the practice of BRAIN dead followers of SMS and certain non Muslim tribes in Africa.
IT IS NOT ISLAMIC PRACTICE AND PROPHET DID NOT SANCTION FGM. PERIOD

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:20 am
by yfm
When you play around with peoples religion and faith, history shows that some one is going to get hurt. Now that they are coming up in the open, you just wait and see. It is sad.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:22 am
by SBM
yfm wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:20 am
When you play around with peoples religion and faith, history shows that some one is going to get hurt. Now that they are coming up in the open, you just wait and see. It is sad.
People who fear Allaha have nothing to fear from NUTJOBS like you


Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:59 am
by yfm
People who fear Allah do not humiliate others in their search for fame and attention and DON'T indulge in Hypocrisy.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:41 pm
by SBM
yfm wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:59 am
People who fear Allah do not humiliate others in their search for fame and attention and DON'T indulge in Hypocrisy.
Exactly--Tell that to your Moula Muffadal :roll:

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:46 pm
by yfm
Why don't you do that on my behalf?

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:17 pm
by AgnosticIndian
yfm wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:20 am
When you play around with peoples religion and faith, history shows that some one is going to get hurt. Now that they are coming up in the open, you just wait and see. It is sad.
Violence is the last refuge of scoundrels

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:09 pm
by Mkenya
Michigan Case Adds U.S. Dimension to Debate on Genital Mutilation
By PAM BELLUCKJUNE 10, 2017


Nazia Mirza of Texas is a member of the Dawoodi Bohra religious sect, which has a long tradition of cutting girls’ genitalia. “This Michigan case made me think I want to speak out,” she said. Credit Michael Stravato for The New York Times
As more details emerge about the first-ever charges of female genital mutilation in the United States, the case is opening a window onto a small immigrant community, while stirring impassioned discussion about genital cutting among women who have experienced it.

At a hearing in Michigan this past week, a federal prosecutor said the defendants — two doctors and a clinic manager from a small Shiite Muslim sect — were believed to have arranged cutting for up to 100 girls since 2005. The prosecutor, Sara Woodward, said investigators had so far identified eight girls.

The unprecedented charges provide an unusual case study of a practice outlawed in the United States two decades ago but still seen in parts of Africa, the Middle East and, less frequently, South Asia. The focus on the Dawoodi Bohra, a sect of about 1.2 million based in western India, with clusters in the United States, Pakistan and elsewhere, is spurring Bohra women to describe their experiences publicly. Some are doing so for the first time, defying the sect’s historic secrecy about cutting and taking a risk that they or relatives will be ostracized.

“This Michigan case made me think I want to speak out,” said Nazia Mirza, 34, who was cut at age 6 in her hometown, Houston. “To me it’s very much like a rape survivor. If you don’t say anything, then how are you going to expose it and bring awareness?”



The case prompted Tasneem Raja, 34, a journalist, to write about being cut in New Jersey. She said she had received “an outpouring of emails from people saying thank you.”

But Ms. Raja said the case was exposing a spectrum of feelings. Even among Bohra women who oppose cutting, she said, views range from “women who say this has greatly impacted their sex life and their ability to enjoy sex, to people like me who walked away with lifelong emotional trauma, to people who say, ‘I don’t see what the big deal is.’”

Some worry the case is stoking anti-Muslim sentiment, though cutting is not in the Quran or practiced in many Muslim societies. And some Bohras who oppose cutting nonetheless feel the defendants are being unfairly demonized for a practice endorsed by their religion’s leadership.

“I don’t want to be pro the practice, but I don’t want it to be exaggerated into something completely barbaric,” said Maryah Haidery, 37, who comes from a Bohra family in New Jersey and had never spoken publicly about her cutting before.

Ms. Haidery, who does medical writing for pharmaceutical companies, said she was “very concerned about this violation” in Michigan, but also “taken aback by how vilified that Michigan doctor had become.”

Prosecutors, citing phone records, texts, interviews and surveillance video, accuse Dr. Jumana Nagarwala, an emergency medicine physician, of cutting the genitals of two 7-year-old girls from Minnesota. Dr. Fakhruddin Attar, an internist, is accused of letting Dr. Nagarwala use his Burhani Medical Clinic in Livonia. His wife, Farida Attar, the clinic’s office manager, is accused of holding the girls’ hands during the Feb. 3 procedures and urging others to deceive investigators.

According to a criminal complaint, one of the Minnesota girls told investigators that it was a “special girls’ trip” for a procedure “to get the germs out.” A medical examination showed that the girl’s labia minora had been “altered or removed,” that the clitoral hood was “abnormal in appearance” and that she had scar tissue and small lacerations.

The other girl said that she “‘got a shot’ and it hurt really badly and she screamed,” and that “after the procedure, she could barely walk, and she felt pain all the way down to her ankle,” the complaint said. An examination found a small incision in her clitoral hood and a small tear to her labia minora.

Dr. Attar said Dr. Nagarwala occasionally used his clinic to see 6- to 9-year-old Bohra girls for “problems with their genitals, including treatment of genital rashes,” the complaint said.

The Minnesota girls’ parents have not been charged. At least one girl was briefly removed from her parents’ custody.

Michigan’s Child Protective Services has initiated petitions to terminate custodial rights of several Bohra parents whose daughters are believed to have undergone cutting, including Dr. Nagarwala’s 12-year-old daughter and the Attars’ 8-year-old daughter. The Attars were released on bond, confined to house arrest; Dr. Nagarwala remained in prison.

Michigan’s Dawoodi Bohra mosque, Anjuman-e-Najmi, where the defendants worship, said in a statement after the arrests that “any violation of U.S. law is counter to instructions to our community members” and “does not reflect the everyday lives of the Dawoodi Bohras in America.”

Recently, the Dawat-e-Hadiyah, an organization overseeing smaller Shiite Muslim sects, hired two well-known lawyers, Alan Dershowitz and Mayer Morganroth, to help the defense, The Associated Press reported.



F.B.I. agents leaving the office of Dr. Fakhruddin Attar in Livonia, Mich., in April. Credit Clarence Tabb Jr./Detroit News, via Associated Press
Dr. Nagarwala, 44, who was born in America, received her medical degree from Johns Hopkins and worked at Henry Ford Health System, which fired her after the arrest and said no cutting had occurred at its facilities.

Her lawyer, Shannon Smith, said Dr. Nagarwala acknowledged “removing a sesame seed-sized amount of mucous membrane” from the clitoral hood.

“What she did does not meet the definition of female genital mutilation,” Ms. Smith said, calling it “a ritual nick” and “a protected religious procedure.”

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Dr. Attar’s lawyer, Mary Chartier, said her client was at a bookstore when prosecutors claim he met Dr. Nagarwala at the clinic. But she said “he knew that this century-old religious rite of passage was being conducted at his clinic” and believed “it wasn’t female genital mutilation.”

It is unclear how common cutting is in the United States. In 1996, genital mutilation of girls was banned, and in 2013, so was traveling outside the United States for cutting. The World Health Organization considers all forms of cutting to be human rights violations.

The practice varies by culture and can include narrowing the vaginal opening and sewing it virtually closed, removing the clitoris or labia, or cutting, piercing, burning or scraping the clitoral hood. Dawoodi Bohra’s form of it, sometimes called khatna, typically involves the clitoral hood. But all types can vary depending on tradition and whether the practitioner has medical training.

Lawyers for the Michigan defendants argue that their clients’ practice is milder than male circumcision.

“With what my client was doing,” Ms. Smith said, “we’re talking removal of the mucous membrane, and the girls are walking out the door 10 minutes later just fine.”

But while male circumcision has opponents, it is legal, and some medical experts link it to health advantages. In contrast, the cutting of female genitalia can cause serious difficulty or pain during sex, pregnancy or childbirth.

“Health providers know the harms and the short-term and long-term complications,” said Dr. Nawal Nour, director of the African Women’s Health Center at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, who is experienced in treating such patients.

For the Dawoodi Bohra sect, which encourages education, particularly on a path toward medical and engineering professions, cutting increasingly generates debate.

In 2015, three Bohras in Australia were convicted of performing cutting. Afterward, leaders in India circulated letters to mosques worldwide, saying Bohras should follow laws of the countries where they live. Later, however, several Bohra women recalled, the highest Bohra leader gave a speech saying Bohra traditions should continue despite Western opposition.

Khatna, like many cutting traditions, is performed by women; men often say they are unaware of its occurrence. Justifications for it vary, including to curb sexual promiscuity, preserve tradition or, said Ms. Raja, “take a bad bug or a germ out of you.”

Ms. Mirza mostly remembers “a woman holding me — I was screaming.” Married with two children, Ms. Mirza, who left the sect, said cutting had “totally affected me in terms of my intimacy and struggling to feel pleasure.”

Ms. Haidery’s experience is complex. Cut by a relative with medical training using an anesthetic, she remembers little pain, saying she was told that “I had to do this in order to be fit to be married.” When an obstetrician examining her during pregnancy noticed nothing unusual, “I thought maybe it’s not a huge deal,” she said.

Still, she said that “I was shocked” when Bohra friends in New Jersey mentioned getting their daughters cut and was “very happy that I didn’t have a girl.”

Mariya Taher, a co-founder of a Bohra anti-cutting group, Sahiyo, which conducted a 2015 survey of Bohra women, said some Bohras considered cutting a “social norm” and “if you don’t get it done you’re doing something wrong and you’re not helping your daughter out.”

But more women now consider it “gender violence,” especially serious because “it’s happening to little girls,” she said.

“You’re tampering with female genitalia,” Ms. Mirza said. “It violates you as a human being and it shouldn’t be done, end of story.”

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:16 pm
by Mkenya
The above article appeared in the New York Times. It is copied verbatim. Read it but remember I am not its author.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:42 pm
by Mkenya
I am not computer savvy but was able to figure out how to post the actual link to my post.
Try this:
https://nyti.ms/2t6ha1V

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:35 pm
by Maqbool
yfm
"To be honest with you, I was leaning towards the Progressive Dawoody Bohras, but the dialogue and discussions have turned me back to Seyedna Mowla Muffadal."

I don't think the progressive needs a bunder like you!

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:14 am
by yfm
Wah wah. What makes you progressive Maqbool saheb? I can't even guess? At least be proud of being one by standing up not incognito!

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:50 am
by yfm
Once you get caught up in this vicious cycle of just writing and refuting and rationalising and justI fixations it's like being caught up in an addiction cycle. So adios my dear one time brethrens. Hope the FGM fight provides some satisfaction to the elite bohra women. We commoners will just walk the walk and may Allah gives us good husbands who are equally chastise as they want their women to be.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:56 am
by dal-chaval-palidu
Maqbool wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:35 pm
yfm
"To be honest with you, I was leaning towards the Progressive Dawoody Bohras, but the dialogue and discussions have turned me back to Seyedna Mowla Muffadal."

I don't think the progressive needs a bunder like you!
anybody should be welcome, especially the people who say they are progressives.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:32 pm
by yfm
THANK YOU dal-chawal-palidu. Respectfully.

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:47 pm
by Mkenya

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:39 pm
by dal-chaval-palidu
yfm wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:32 pm
THANK YOU dal-chawal-palidu. Respectfully.
bhai yfm,

At one point you were considering and actively making the case for SKQ. Can I just ask what made you change your mind? Was it any negative experience with the SKQ/SFT dawat, or, something else?