Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

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Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#31

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:43 am

truebohra wrote:
Muslim First wrote:Verses 36:12 and 17:71-72
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... index.html
MF,
Please can you give us the meaning of this Ayah & what do you understand by it?
Can you deny Mohammed (SAW) & ALI (AS) & thier progeny (whom we called Imams) are not descendants of Ibrahim (AS) .

Image
In verse 36:12, the word “imam” is used to refer to Lauhul Mahfudh, the Preserved Tablet in which all deeds are recorded. Allah says:

Quran, 36:12: “Verily, We will restore the dead to life, and We write that which they sent forth, and that which they left behind; and everything We have recorded (Ahssa) in a clear book (imam).”

Ahlus Sunnah Tafseer of Verse 36:12
The critical phrase in here is “Imaamin Mubin.” Sunni Tafseers in general say that it refers to the “Lauhul Mahfudh,” the Preserved Tablet in which all deeds have been written. This is the view of at-Tabari in his Tafseer, as well as in the Tafseer of Al-Qurtubi.

Shia Tafseer of Verse 36:12
The top Shia commentaries of Majma ul Bayan by Allamah Tabbarsi and Tibbyan by Shaykh Tusi also echo this view, and do not present any “human Imam” as a possibility in this case. In Tafseer Al-Mizan, Allamah Tabatabai mentions this as the best possible meaning for this phrase. In addition, Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi in his commentary mentions the Preserved Tablet as his view of what “Imaamin Mubin” refers to in this verse. (Tafseer Tibbyan, Volume 8, p.447-448; Tafseer Al Mizan, Volume 17, p.66-68; Naser Makarem Shirazi Commentary, Volume 5, p.271-272)

Recording, “Ahssa” in the Quran
One of the words of interest is “ahssa” or recording, which is used in verse 36:12. It is important to see the instances in which this word is used, since it will shed light on how the Quran uses it in other circumstances. Indeed, every other time the word “ahssa” is used in the Quran, it is used to refer to writing in a book. Allah says:

“Everything have We recorded (ahssa) in a book.” (Quran 78:29)

The usage of the root word “ahssa” signifies writing and recording of matters, not on people or angels, but on tablets and books. Attempting to establish a connection between this term and Ali (or any other human being) is incorrect. The word “ahssa” is not used in the Quran even once to refer to “writing on people,” so it is very strange how it can suddenly refer to writing on an “Infallible Imam.”

Clear Book, “Kitaabun Mubin” in the Quran
Another topic that should be looked into is how the Quran addresses the fact that Allah has recorded everything. Is it in a person or a book? The following Quranic verses presented below give overwhelming weight to the argument that Allah always equates the recording of everything with a book.

“And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knows them. And He knows what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falls but He knows it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 6:59)

“And not an atom’s weight in the earth or in the sky escapes your Lord, nor what is less than that or greater than that, but it is (written) in a clear book (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 10:61)

“And there is not a beast in the earth but the sustenance thereof depends on Allah. He knows its habitation and its repository. All is in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 11:6)

“And there is nothing hidden in the heaven or the earth but it is in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 27:75)

(Quran 34:3)
“Those who disbelieve say: The Hour will never come unto us. Say: Nay, by my Lord, but it is coming unto you surely. (He is) the Knower of the Unseen. Not an atom’s weight, or less than that or greater, escapes Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).”

The explicit phrase “kitaabun mubin” (clear book) has been used on a number of occasions in the Quran. Its purpose is to describe the recording of all details in a book, which all sides agree is the Lauhul Mahfudh. Therefore, it is difficult for the objective person to see how this general form of address would change suddenly for the verse under consideration (verse 36:12), especially since there is no further indication or hint in the verse that would lead the reader to believe that it refers to an “Infallible Imam.”

Any unbiased observor would be forced to say that there is a general concept in Islam that Allah records all deeds in a book or record. This is a recurring theme in the Quran and it is obvious that verse 36:12 is talking about this same concept. It is indicative of the Shia’s weak position that they are forced to distort seemingly straight-forward verses in order to validate their beliefs.

Common Sense: How are things “written” on people? It is also important to note the differences between the ways a thing is written in a book, and the way it would be stored in someone’s knowledge.

It was already seen which words are used to describe the writing of something into a book or a record. In the case of giving knowledge to a human being, the case is entirely different. We have the example of Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the revelations and knowledge that came to him. Allah in these cases uses altogether different words, such as “Nuheeh” (inspired) or “Nazal” (revealed). The Quran states:

“This is of the tidings of the Unseen which We inspire in you (Muhammad).” (Quran 11:49)

“And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, Which the True Spirit has brought down Upon your heart, that you may be (one) of the warners.” (Quran 26:192-194)

Numerous other examples, both in relation with Prophets as well as with other humans can be found in the Quran. In all these cases, the word “Nuheeh” (inspired) is used to describe how Allah sends knowledge to them, while “Tanzil” signifies a special revelation of a divine book, such as the Quran to Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). If the real meaning of verse 36:12 was to show that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) was the one in whom Allah had stored all knowledge, the more appropriate manner to mention it would be to say that such things had been “inspired” into his heart. Again, the structure of verse 36:12 does not conform to the established cases where Allah reveals and inspires things to His servants.

Conclusion for Verse 36:12

To sum up the discussion with respect to verse 36:12, the assertion by some Shia that the “imam” in this case refers to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) is incorrect due to the following reasons:

It is clear that Sunni commentaries and most Shia commentaries have concluded that the “Imaamin Mubin” refers to the Preserved Tablet (the Lauhul Mahfudh) or to the individual record of every person’s deeds.
The other instances of the word “ahssa” and the phrase “kitaabun mubin” all refer to writing and recording things in a physical book or register, not on a person. This is the general theme in the Quran and it is a stretch to suddenly switch this meaning.

The manner in which a person is given knowledge is quite different from the manner in which things are recorded in a book. Things are certainly not written on people nor are they recorded in people.
Can you deny Mohammed (SAW) & ALI (AS) & thier progeny (whom we called Imams) are not descendants of Ibrahim (AS)
.
Yes Muhammad was progeny of Ibrahim
Why limt to Prophet's line?
Prophet's Grandfather had other chilrdens. Why just limit to Ali and his progeny?

truebohra
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#32

Unread post by truebohra » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:07 am

Muslim First wrote:
truebohra wrote: MF,
Please can you give us the meaning of this Ayah & what do you understand by it?
Can you deny Mohammed (SAW) & ALI (AS) & thier progeny (whom we called Imams) are not descendants of Ibrahim (AS) .

Image
In verse 36:12, the word “imam” is used to refer to Lauhul Mahfudh, the Preserved Tablet in which all deeds are recorded. Allah says:

Quran, 36:12: “Verily, We will restore the dead to life, and We write that which they sent forth, and that which they left behind; and everything We have recorded (Ahssa) in a clear book (imam).”

Ahlus Sunnah Tafseer of Verse 36:12
The critical phrase in here is “Imaamin Mubin.” Sunni Tafseers in general say that it refers to the “Lauhul Mahfudh,” the Preserved Tablet in which all deeds have been written. This is the view of at-Tabari in his Tafseer, as well as in the Tafseer of Al-Qurtubi.

Shia Tafseer of Verse 36:12
The top Shia commentaries of Majma ul Bayan by Allamah Tabbarsi and Tibbyan by Shaykh Tusi also echo this view, and do not present any “human Imam” as a possibility in this case. In Tafseer Al-Mizan, Allamah Tabatabai mentions this as the best possible meaning for this phrase. In addition, Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi in his commentary mentions the Preserved Tablet as his view of what “Imaamin Mubin” refers to in this verse. (Tafseer Tibbyan, Volume 8, p.447-448; Tafseer Al Mizan, Volume 17, p.66-68; Naser Makarem Shirazi Commentary, Volume 5, p.271-272)

Recording, “Ahssa” in the Quran
One of the words of interest is “ahssa” or recording, which is used in verse 36:12. It is important to see the instances in which this word is used, since it will shed light on how the Quran uses it in other circumstances. Indeed, every other time the word “ahssa” is used in the Quran, it is used to refer to writing in a book. Allah says:

“Everything have We recorded (ahssa) in a book.” (Quran 78:29)

The usage of the root word “ahssa” signifies writing and recording of matters, not on people or angels, but on tablets and books. Attempting to establish a connection between this term and Ali (or any other human being) is incorrect. The word “ahssa” is not used in the Quran even once to refer to “writing on people,” so it is very strange how it can suddenly refer to writing on an “Infallible Imam.”

Clear Book, “Kitaabun Mubin” in the Quran
Another topic that should be looked into is how the Quran addresses the fact that Allah has recorded everything. Is it in a person or a book? The following Quranic verses presented below give overwhelming weight to the argument that Allah always equates the recording of everything with a book.

“And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knows them. And He knows what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falls but He knows it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 6:59)

“And not an atom’s weight in the earth or in the sky escapes your Lord, nor what is less than that or greater than that, but it is (written) in a clear book (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 10:61)

“And there is not a beast in the earth but the sustenance thereof depends on Allah. He knows its habitation and its repository. All is in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 11:6)

“And there is nothing hidden in the heaven or the earth but it is in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).” (Quran 27:75)

(Quran 34:3)
“Those who disbelieve say: The Hour will never come unto us. Say: Nay, by my Lord, but it is coming unto you surely. (He is) the Knower of the Unseen. Not an atom’s weight, or less than that or greater, escapes Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear record (kitaabun mubin).”

The explicit phrase “kitaabun mubin” (clear book) has been used on a number of occasions in the Quran. Its purpose is to describe the recording of all details in a book, which all sides agree is the Lauhul Mahfudh. Therefore, it is difficult for the objective person to see how this general form of address would change suddenly for the verse under consideration (verse 36:12), especially since there is no further indication or hint in the verse that would lead the reader to believe that it refers to an “Infallible Imam.”

Any unbiased observor would be forced to say that there is a general concept in Islam that Allah records all deeds in a book or record. This is a recurring theme in the Quran and it is obvious that verse 36:12 is talking about this same concept. It is indicative of the Shia’s weak position that they are forced to distort seemingly straight-forward verses in order to validate their beliefs.

Common Sense: How are things “written” on people? It is also important to note the differences between the ways a thing is written in a book, and the way it would be stored in someone’s knowledge.

It was already seen which words are used to describe the writing of something into a book or a record. In the case of giving knowledge to a human being, the case is entirely different. We have the example of Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the revelations and knowledge that came to him. Allah in these cases uses altogether different words, such as “Nuheeh” (inspired) or “Nazal” (revealed). The Quran states:

“This is of the tidings of the Unseen which We inspire in you (Muhammad).” (Quran 11:49)

“And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, Which the True Spirit has brought down Upon your heart, that you may be (one) of the warners.” (Quran 26:192-194)

Numerous other examples, both in relation with Prophets as well as with other humans can be found in the Quran. In all these cases, the word “Nuheeh” (inspired) is used to describe how Allah sends knowledge to them, while “Tanzil” signifies a special revelation of a divine book, such as the Quran to Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). If the real meaning of verse 36:12 was to show that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) was the one in whom Allah had stored all knowledge, the more appropriate manner to mention it would be to say that such things had been “inspired” into his heart. Again, the structure of verse 36:12 does not conform to the established cases where Allah reveals and inspires things to His servants.

Conclusion for Verse 36:12

To sum up the discussion with respect to verse 36:12, the assertion by some Shia that the “imam” in this case refers to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) is incorrect due to the following reasons:

It is clear that Sunni commentaries and most Shia commentaries have concluded that the “Imaamin Mubin” refers to the Preserved Tablet (the Lauhul Mahfudh) or to the individual record of every person’s deeds.
The other instances of the word “ahssa” and the phrase “kitaabun mubin” all refer to writing and recording things in a physical book or register, not on a person. This is the general theme in the Quran and it is a stretch to suddenly switch this meaning.

The manner in which a person is given knowledge is quite different from the manner in which things are recorded in a book. Things are certainly not written on people nor are they recorded in people.
Can you deny Mohammed (SAW) & ALI (AS) & thier progeny (whom we called Imams) are not descendants of Ibrahim (AS)
.
Yes Muhammad was progeny of Ibrahim
Why limt to Prophet's line?
Prophet's Grandfather had other chilrdens. Why just limit to Ali and his progeny?
MF, You have given commentary on all the verses but rather cunningly dodged my question on your understanding & meaning of the following ayay:
Image
What is the meaning of the ayah? What do you understand by it? if Mohammed(SAW) was progeny of Ibrahim (AS) what about Fatema (AS) & Hasan (AS) & Hussian (AS)?
They were all bani hashim including Ali (AS) . & look what your hadiths say about it
Sunni Hadith :-
Wathilah ibn al-Asqa narrated the Prophet Muhammad said;
"Indeed Allah chose Isma'il from the progeny of Ibrahim, chose the Banu Kinanah over other tribes from the children of Isma'il; He chose the Banu Quraish over other tribes of Kinanah; He chose Banu Hashim over the other families of the Quraish; and He chose me from Banu Hashim."
—Related by Muslim and Tirmidhi.
Now you know who were the rightful real successor to Prophet People from Bani Ummayya or Bani Hashim

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:02 pm

Look at these ayahs of the Quran in Surah Taha

This is a conversation between Musa (as) and the Pharoah.

20:49
[But when God's message was conveyed unto Pharaoh,] he said: "Who, now, is this Sustainer of you two, O Moses?"

20:50
He replied: "Our Sustainer is He who gives unto every thing [that exists] its true nature and form. and thereupon guides it [towards its fulfilment].

20:51
Said [Pharaoh]: "And what of all the past generations?"


This is a very smart question from the Pharoah. Musa (as) is telling pharoah that he will be doomed unless he believes. And pharoah is questioning Musa that even if he were to believe, what of all the past generations who had no prophet or revelation come to them. And how does Musa (as) answer?

20:52
[Moses] answered: "Knowledge thereof rests with my Sustainer [alone, and is laid down] in His decree; [33] my Sustainer does not err, and neither does He forget."


Look at the arabic language of this verse.

قَالَ عِلْمُهَا عِندَ رَبِّي فِي كِتَابٍ لَّا يَضِلُّ رَبِّي وَلَا يَنسَى

Musa (as) is telling the pharoah that Allah has the knowledge with him about the past generation which he has laid down in His "Kitaab", His "decree". Not a human Imam. This ayah also proves that 36:12 is referring to a book of records and not a human Imam as misunderstood by the bohras.

truebohra
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#34

Unread post by truebohra » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:54 am

anajmi wrote:Look at these ayahs of the Quran in Surah Taha

This is a conversation between Musa (as) and the Pharoah.

20:49
[But when God's message was conveyed unto Pharaoh,] he said: "Who, now, is this Sustainer of you two, O Moses?"

20:50
He replied: "Our Sustainer is He who gives unto every thing [that exists] its true nature and form. and thereupon guides it [towards its fulfilment].

20:51
Said [Pharaoh]: "And what of all the past generations?"


This is a very smart question from the Pharoah. Musa (as) is telling pharoah that he will be doomed unless he believes. And pharoah is questioning Musa that even if he were to believe, what of all the past generations who had no prophet or revelation come to them. And how does Musa (as) answer?

20:52
[Moses] answered: "Knowledge thereof rests with my Sustainer [alone, and is laid down] in His decree; [33] my Sustainer does not err, and neither does He forget."


Look at the arabic language of this verse.

قَالَ عِلْمُهَا عِندَ رَبِّي فِي كِتَابٍ لَّا يَضِلُّ رَبِّي وَلَا يَنسَى

Musa (as) is telling the pharoah that Allah has the knowledge with him about the past generation which he has laid down in His "Kitaab", His "decree". Not a human Imam. This ayah also proves that 36:12 is referring to a book of records and not a human Imam as misunderstood by the bohras.


Image
Anajmi,
What is the meaning of the above Ayah? Why do you think Allah has to reveal this ayah i? Do you deny Mohammed (SAW), Ali (SA). Fatema (AS), Hasan (AS), Hussain (AS) are from the progeny of Ibrahim (AS)? Is it a book or some person whom Allah chose above the world in this Ayah? Why does Allah has to choose some one above all the world & creatures of the world and mention in Quran. Just dont reply but also think about it.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#35

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:24 pm

Trubohra
MF, You have given commentary on all the verses but rather cunningly dodged my question on your understanding & meaning of the following ayay:
Br TB
I disliked your use of cunningly dodged .

Do you really want to continue this debate about Imam and Imamt?
See following post by porus who bos DB and propbably reformisist but is still DB (Taqiya).

I quote porus's post
porus wrote:Imam al-Tayyib, in all probability, was killed in his infancy by his father's enemies. Thus, he has no progeny. No Imam is coming and hence the question of his verification does not arise.

No Dai al-Mutlaq has ever been appointed by any Imam because the first Dai al-Mutlaq was appointed by Hurrat al-Malika.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

Since the Imam did not appoint Dai al-Mutlaq, he will have to consider whether the latter is his 'true' follower. If the Imam is being presented by the Dail al-Mutlaq as 'aalim al-ghayb' and 'to whom sajda is wajib', he is not going to be much impressed by him.

especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue,Allah.
I do not believe in Devine Imam or Imamat. According to porus there is no Imamat for you after 21,
So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue with a person whose Imam does not exist.

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#36

Unread post by progticide » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:05 am

Muslim First wrote:
Trubohra
MF, You have given commentary on all the verses but rather cunningly dodged my question on your understanding & meaning of the following ayay:
Br TB
I disliked your use of cunningly dodged .

Do you really want to continue this debate about Imam and Imamt?
See following post by porus who bos DB and propbably reformisist but is still DB (Taqiya).

I do not believe in Devine Imam or Imamat. According to porus there is no Imamat for you after 21,
So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue with a person whose Imam does not exist.
MF,
Didn't know you too were Prof. Poo's (Porus) mureed and shagird, quoting Porus' responses in your replies.

So, if tomorrow Porus was to tell you that your parents weren't married until before you were born, I am sure you would accept that also as divine truth from your new Peer Prof. Poo (Porus).

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#37

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:00 am

Good well bred so called Mumeen present credible aqrguments and carry out soft and resoned conversations. Low bred "Keechad ke Kide" use gutter talk and go "oink" "oink" like dukkar.

truebohra
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#38

Unread post by truebohra » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:13 am

Muslim First wrote:
Trubohra
MF, You have given commentary on all the verses but rather cunningly dodged my question on your understanding & meaning of the following ayay:
Br TB
I disliked your use of cunningly dodged .

Do you really want to continue this debate about Imam and Imamt?
See following post by porus who bos DB and propbably reformisist but is still DB (Taqiya).

I quote porus's post
porus wrote:Imam al-Tayyib, in all probability, was killed in his infancy by his father's enemies. Thus, he has no progeny. No Imam is coming and hence the question of his verification does not arise.

No Dai al-Mutlaq has ever been appointed by any Imam because the first Dai al-Mutlaq was appointed by Hurrat al-Malika.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

Since the Imam did not appoint Dai al-Mutlaq, he will have to consider whether the latter is his 'true' follower. If the Imam is being presented by the Dail al-Mutlaq as 'aalim al-ghayb' and 'to whom sajda is wajib', he is not going to be much impressed by him.

especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue,Allah.
I do not believe in Devine Imam or Imamat. According to porus there is no Imamat for you after 21,
So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue with a person whose Imam does not exist.

MF, i am sorry if i hurt your sentiments with my choice of words. But i am surprised you are quoting porus. What is his authority? Forget about what porus said. Dont you think it is worth giving s thought why does Allah has to reveal a Ayah stating a progeny of ibrahim (AS) to be the leaders of the world & its creatures? Can you deny Ali a.s, Fatema a.s, Mohamed s.a.w, Hasan & Hussain a.s are progeny of mohammed & bani hashim whom even the prophet has exalted. again my question to you. Can you do tafseer of this ayah & what do you undertand by it Why does allah has to reveal this ayah? Why has allah made someone greater than al-alamin?

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#39

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:26 am

truebohra wrote:
Muslim First wrote:
MF, i am sorry if i hurt your sentiments with my choice of words. But i am surprised you are quoting porus. What is his authority? Forget about what porus said. Dont you think it is worth giving s thought why does Allah has to reveal a Ayah stating a progeny of ibrahim (AS) to be the leaders of the world & its creatures? Can you deny Ali a.s, Fatema a.s, Mohamed s.a.w, Hasan & Hussain a.s are progeny of mohammed & bani hashim whom even the prophet has exalted. again my question to you. Can you do tafseer of this ayah & what do you undertand by it Why does allah has to reveal this ayah? Why has allah made someone greater than al-alamin?
Br tb
I was collecting various tafseers on your request but was p d off with your put down. I am sure you are a intelligent person and search and read.
I do compare various tafseer and form my opinion.
BTW as far as these various issues I have no problem except my personal issue of my health and so I concentrate on Prayers first, my family, charity and taking care of my business.
First and foremost I concentrate on taking care of my prayers, make sure my family doing well for the day. My health needs are met so I live day to day.
Now as far as 36:12 is concerned search for Various translations and comments. Since I am Muslim First I look for Tafseer Ibn Kathir, Asad, Maudidi, Yusuf Ali, Shahi International, Shakir, Notes by Pooya and Ali and many more. They are all there on net.

Now your blanket assertion that Allah has extolled progeny of Ibrahim so anybody with near connection are divine is humbug. Read up some info on Imam Hassan look up comments regarding number of times he got married. It is up to you to you to believe what you read.
For me it does not matter. My belief is up to Prophet Muhammad. What happened after that is history and various sects have born as a result, If these people followed Qur'an and Sunna then they are OK otherwise I do not care to judge them.
BTW if you are truebohra then see if you can become true Muslim like some of Sahaba say Hz Ali.

truebohra
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#40

Unread post by truebohra » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:32 am

Muslim First wrote:
truebohra wrote:
Br tb
I was collecting various tafseers on your request but was p d off with your put down. I am sure you are a intelligent person and search and read.
I do compare various tafseer and form my opinion.
BTW as far as these various issues I have no problem except my personal issue of my health and so I concentrate on Prayers first, my family, charity and taking care of my business.
First and foremost I concentrate on taking care of my prayers, make sure my family doing well for the day. My health needs are met so I live day to day.
Now as far as 36:12 is concerned search for Various translations and comments. Since I am Muslim First I look for Tafseer Ibn Kathir, Asad, Maudidi, Yusuf Ali, Shahi International, Shakir, Notes by Pooya and Ali and many more. They are all there on net.

Now your blanket assertion that Allah has extolled progeny of Ibrahim so anybody with near connection are divine is humbug. Read up some info on Imam Hassan look up comments regarding number of times he got married. It is up to you to you to believe what you read.
For me it does not matter. My belief is up to Prophet Muhammad. What happened after that is history and various sects have born as a result, If these people followed Qur'an and Sunna then they are OK otherwise I do not care to judge them.
BTW if you are truebohra then see if you can become true Muslim like some of Sahaba say Hz Ali.

It is not my blanket assertion. It is mentioned in the Ayah of Quran look below
Image

Image

Combining this with Hadiths from Prophet regarding the people of Bani Hashim makes it quiet clear.

Now do you call the Ayahs od quran & Hadiths humbug???

Muslim First
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#41

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:05 pm

porus wrote:
truebohra wrote:
Iman requires belief in the book. Then do you belive in the below Ayah
Image
If Yes. then you must agree that people from the house of Ibrahim (descendants of Ibrahim) & from the house of bani hashim are better than the people of saqifa? It is said by Allah in Quran & in Hadiths prophet & not by me or any other self made scholar. Do you Agree?
Indeed, they were chosen. However, there is a rider attached to the choice in case of Nabi Ibrahim;

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

This is ayat 2:124. Ibrahim is told that Imamat will not extend to "Zalimeen" from among the progeny of Ibrahim.

Who are Zalimeen? One meaning is 'those who take you towards ignorance or hide the truth from you' Allah warns that even among Ibrahim's progeny, which he has singled out amongst mankind, there will be those who will take you towards 'Zulmat', and away from 'Noor', which is the light of Islam.

I advise you that you take the Quran as a whole and do not ape your Aamil, any Aamil, who will quote Quran out of context to justify "dai worship".

truth seeker100
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#42

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:30 pm

imam means book of deeds, no matter what you bohras try to prove your beliefs, it won't work

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#43

Unread post by maethist » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:56 pm

truth seeker100 wrote:imam means book of deeds, no matter what you bohras try to prove your beliefs, it won't work
So when Bohras refer to Imam Hussein, they actually mean "Book of Deeds" Hussein!!

Idiot! :x

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#44

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:16 am

imam in the Quran means " book of deeds" use your brain, whatever little of it that you have, and get a life looser

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#45

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:34 pm

truth seeker100 wrote:imam in the Quran means " book of deeds" use your brain, whatever little of it that you have, and get a life looser
These Quranic ayats use the word Imam to categorically mean human beings :

(2:124) imāman a leader قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي
(9:12) a-immata the leaders فَقَاتِلُوا أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ إِنَّهُمْ لَا أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنْتَهُونَ
(11:17) imāman (as) a guide وَيَتْلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ مِنْهُ وَمِنْ قَبْلِهِ كِتَابُ مُوسَىٰ إِمَامًا وَرَحْمَةً
(21:73) a-immatan leaders وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا
(25:74) imāman a leader مِنْ أَزْوَاجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّاتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا
(28:5) a-immatan leaders وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ
(28:41) a-immatan leaders وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنْصَرُونَ
(32:24) a-immatan leaders وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا
(46:12) imāman (as) a guide وَمِنْ قَبْلِهِ كِتَابُ مُوسَىٰ إِمَامًا وَرَحْمَةً

The following ones use it to mean non-human where interpretation is subject to disagreement.

(15:79) labi-imāmin (were) on a highway فَانْتَقَمْنَا مِنْهُمْ وَإِنَّهُمَا لَبِإِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ
(17:71) bi-imāmihim with their record يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ
(36:12) imāmin a Register وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ

So out of 12 usages, 9 times the Quran definintely uses Imam to mean humans.

So, idiot truth seeker 100, you are not qualified to preach the Quran. If you insist on doing so, go find like minded Wahhabis in some other forum to preach to.

Idiot!! :x

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#46

Unread post by canadian » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:50 pm

^
maethist and truth seeker 100:

When debating or arguing, do you have to abuse each other? Is that what your religion teaches you- to abuse and to be intolerant of others’ views?

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#47

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:06 pm

canadian wrote:^
maethist and truth seeker 100:

When debating or arguing, do you have to abuse each other? Is that what your religion teaches you- to abuse and to be intolerant of others’ views?
Canadian, sorry I hurt your feelings. Next time I will be more polite. I will simply invoke laanat on idiots like truth seeker 100. :lol: That will be in line with the better practices of Bohras.

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:58 pm

So out of 12 usages, 9 times the Quran definintely uses Imam to mean humans.
Doesn't really matter, cause your Imam is incognito.

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#49

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:17 pm

Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

Am I to assume that you do not agree with your Wahhabi brother, laanati truth seeker 100, that in the Quran, Imam does not always mean a "book of records"? Sometimes it can mean a human being, like a leader of men.
Last edited by maethist on Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:24 pm

The bohras use the term "Imamat ni namaz" for when they pray in jamaat. What does this "Imamat" mean? Does the hidden Imam show up for these prayers? No. It simply means that the guy leading the prayer is being referred to as Imam. The leader is being referred to as the Imam. That is the case with some of the ayahs quoted above. The leader is referred to as the Imam. Not some hiding superhuman being. Not some record keeper.

The main ayah that the bohras use to give their twist to "Imam" is 36:12 and that ayah clearly refers to a record as corroborated by the ayah in Surah Naba. I will give truth seeker100 the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was simply talking about 36:12.

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#51

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:33 pm

Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

I don't much care how Bohras twist the "meaning" of the ayat.

Just stick to the question. Can Imam sometimes mean a human being? Refer to ayats I posted above. That is a quote from a reputable Quran website. Quran has not used the word to mean Prayer Leader. If you think that it does, justify your assertion.

If you want to give your brother "benefit of doubt", then advise him to learn to become "knowledgeable", like you, about the Quran before he preaches.

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#52

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:42 pm

Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

By the way, I do not believe Bohras use 36:12 to justify that Imam can be hiding. So, please do not beat that drum.

Imam is used traditionally to refer to a Prayer Leader everywhere. I am fairly certain that that is not how the word is used in the Quran.

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:50 pm

By the way, I do not believe Bohras use 36:12 to justify that Imam can be hiding.
You are obviously ignorant about what the bohras use 36:12 for. Perhaps some homework for you? Might want to take some help from your son.
Can Imam sometimes mean a human being?
Read my previous post once more. Slowly this time. The answer is right there.

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#54

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:01 pm

anajmi wrote:
By the way, I do not believe Bohras use 36:12 to justify that Imam can be hiding.
You are obviously ignorant about what the bohras use 36:12 for. Perhaps some homework for you? Might want to take some help from your son.
Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

I am aware of Bohras using the ayat to say all knowledge is vested in the Imam, whether he is hiding or not hiding. But they do not use it to say that it justifies Imam going in to hiding. If you think that they do, please enlighten this board with your profound knowledge.

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:03 pm

But they do not use it to say that it justifies Imam going in to hiding. If you think that they do, please enlighten this board with your profound knowledge.
Sure. I will.

Although I am not sure if I implied that 36:12 has something to do with the Imam going into hiding. Did I?

The hiding Imam is not the article of bohra faith as much as is the presence of an Imam at all times. Unfortunately, since the Imam is not actually present, a hiding Imam comes in to take his place.

maethist
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#56

Unread post by maethist » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:35 pm

Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

Is that what you call your profound knowledge? You disappoint me. Are you now saying that 36:12 does not say that Imam can go into hiding and that you agree with me?

Imam can be present and hiding. That is not illogical. It is perfectly possible.

Bohras can interpret Quran any way they like. That is a right guaranteed them in the US Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If their interpretation benefits them or harms them, that is their affair. It does not harm non-Bohras. So what is getting your goat? I gather you are not a Bohra. If Bohras are pissing you off why do you spend so much time here?

'Knowledgeable' in Arabic means 'aleem', and 'rightly guided' means 'rasheed'. I notice that you have been on this board enlightening Bohras with your inimitable knowledge since January 2001, that is 14 years. With nearly 12,000 contributions from you since then, you are surely deserving of great respect and honor.

So I will adorn you with Al Aleem, all knowledgeable, and Al Rasheed, all righteous, holy names of God, no less.

So congratulations, Al Aleem, Al Rasheed, anajmi

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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:05 pm

You disappoint me.
Always happy to.
Are you now saying that 36:12 does not say that Imam can go into hiding and that you agree with me?
36:12 doesn't say many things. For example, 36:12 doesn't say that only a chick can come out of a chicken's egg. I am not interested in talking about what it doesn't say. What it does say, however, is what the bohras fail to understand.
Imam can be present and hiding. That is not illogical. It is perfectly possible.
Yeah, in kookoo land!!!
Bohras can interpret Quran any way they like.
Bohras are incapable of interpreting the Quran. And this incapability stems from corrupt Dais and hiding Imams.
So what is getting your goat?
Call it an urge.
So I will adorn you with Al Aleem, all knowledgeable, and Al Rasheed, all righteous, holy names of God, no less.
Let me impart some more of my knowledge to you. This is the problem with bohras. They give holy names of God to anybody with more knowledge than themselves and ensure that they will remain mushriks, or in your case, kafirs!!

Now take it easy and stop behaving like an abde idiot!!

truth seeker100
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#58

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:50 pm

maethist wrote:Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

Am I to assume that you do not agree with your Wahhabi brother, laanati truth seeker 100, that in the Quran, Imam does not always mean a "book of records"? Sometimes it can mean a human being, like a leader of men.
idiot I am talking about the verse 36:12 which you bohras are trying to use to prove your fake imam exists, in that aaya imam means a book or register of deeds
idiot :x

truth seeker100
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#59

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:55 pm

let's say that, just for the sake of argument, that in the aaya 36 12 imam does mean a person, but then how do you know it is your bohra imam tayyeb? how can you be sure it's not the shia imam Mahdi, or the current Ismaili imam, or just a regular imam of a mosque?? how can you be so sure that it definitely means your hidden imam ( who btw does not exist)?????

truth seeker100
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#60

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:58 pm

maethist wrote:Knowledgeable, Rightly Guided anajmi,

Am I to assume that you do not agree with your Wahhabi brother, laanati truth seeker 100, that in the Quran, Imam does not always mean a "book of records"? Sometimes it can mean a human being, like a leader of men.
you can call me wahabi all you like, i would rather be a called a wahabi, then a bohra who is a weak human being following a fake islam ruled by a dai that loots money and a imam that's playing hide and seek