Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Dear All,

Assalamu Alaykum.

Path to Allah s.w.t. is reforming one's self first. How many of us are fault free ? If Dawoodi Bohra people believe in their Aaqa Maula, let them. Do they hurt you in your struggle to be good muslim ? Why do you think that these people do not have brains ? How many of you did preaching to non believers? Are you 100% sure that you are following Islam in its original form ?

Instead of pointing fingers at others, please look inward and try to better yourself. Do not waste time in finding fault of the people you consider blind followers. Instead work hard to improve yourself and inspire non believers to Islam by your acts.

Nice thought. Let's see how can I respond nicely to this simplistic reasoning. If Imam Hussain were to follow your advice he would have let Yazid be. Why bother picking up a fight with a tyrant when he (Imam Hussain) could have concentrated on being a "good Muslim" and followed "islam in the original form" (whatever these absurd phrases might mean)?

Sorry to say, the path to allah is not "reforming one's self first". Islam is a religion embedded in community and brotherhood. It is impossible to be a good muslim in a bad (muslim) community. Islam arose in response to injustice and corruption, and fighting these evils is part of being Muslim or being a "good muslim", if you will.

Orthodox bohras are blind followers. This is a fact. Reformists are just stating the obvious. But the point here is not to criticise for the sake of criticising. What reformists are saying is that the bohra clergy is corrupt and oppressive, it has perverted religion for the sake of power and profit. Reformists want to change things around, and in doing so they are responding to the basic Islamic calling: standing up to the bully.

Instead work hard to improve yourself and inspire non believers to Islam by your acts.

Ignoring the mess mullahs are making is no way to inspire non-believers? Non believers will look to your community for inspiration, not your individual moral brilliance. Besides, the acts of improving oneself and doing good deeds are justifications in themselves. You don't do things to inspire someone. You do them because it’s the right thing to do. And the right thing to do in the Islamic/human/moral context is to save our community from the corrupt 'royal family'.

Originally posted by Akbar Petiwala:

Path to Allah s.w.t. is reforming one's self first.

The actual quote attributed to Muhammad is "man arafa nafsa-hu, fa arafa rabba-hu". One who knows his "self" will know his Lord."

Knowing one's self is a life-long mission and there is no suggestion that it must be completed before taking up struggle against injustice and corruption.

The process of knowing one's self does several things. It removes fear; it clarifies your mission; awakens responsibility; motivates actions in accordance with responsibility for the good of society.

So, it helps but there is no suggestion that you will ever completely know yourself or that you must observe your navel while opportunity to reform social structures passes you by.

Do they hurt you in your struggle to be good muslim ?

Aren't we talking about the most intrusive system ever? Whom are you kidding dude!! Tell this where the sun doesn't shine.

Originally posted by Akbar Petiwala:
Dear All,

Instead of pointing fingers at others, please look inward and try to better yourself. Do not waste time in finding fault of the people you consider blind followers. Instead work hard to improve yourself and inspire non believers to Islam by your acts.

I wish the dai agrees to your wisdom. Instead of pronouncing curses (laeen laeen !) and asking parents to disown their kids who do not pander to his (dai's) worldview, he should look within and try to be tolerant.

A Petiwala
I agree with you that we should improve and inspire others non believers to beome MUSLIM
NOW CAN YOU ASK THE SAME OF SYEDNA AND ALL HIS AAMILS AND SHEZADS TO DO THE SAME AND STOP SENDING LAANATS TO ALL THE KAHLIFAS IN ISLAM. DURING THIS MUHARRAM MORE LAANAAT WERE SENT WITH THE NAMES OF ALL KAHALIFAS THEN BEFORE.
Piggy and Froggy do not ask me if I am SHIA,Most of the Shia community except for Dawoodi Bohras say LAANAT to Khulfa-e-Raashdin (BTW if you donot know what Kulfa-e-Raashdin is ask MF and Anjami for taawil and batin sabaq)

Most of the Shia community except for Dawoodi Bohras say LAANAT to Khulfa-e-Raashdin

OB, AS

You need to be little bit clear. Do you mean like this.

"Most of the Shia community except for Aga Khanis say LAANAT to Khulfa-e-Raashdin (except Hz Ali RA, 4th and last Khulfa-e-Raashdin.

For Taweel and Batin Sabak you have to go to Shia Scholar.

Include me in your Laanats.

Wasalaam
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MF
ASA
I gave you more credit than you deserve why? because you considered Aga Khanis Muslim, Namaz, Roza, Hajj and everything else which is required of Muslims and
YES INCLUDING DAWOODI BOHRAS is not required by Aga Khanis.
Since Karim Aga Khan makes good donations and have good friends in dictatorial Islamic world, he get away while Qadianis gets shafted by the same crowd.
If you wish to be included in LAANATS, like some one says we live in free country except the one you admired the most Saudi Arabia, you can have your wish fulfilled ( I DONOT GIVE LAANATS TO ANYONE)
You have also shown your true color of bias against SHIAS so all your hadiths and everythig else of unitying UMMA was just hot air. May Allah give you some towfiq of unity and not of dividing.

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Br. OB

It is not up to me to declare Takfir on anybody.

Laant was subject of your post.

This is what you said

"Most of the Shia community except for Dawoodi Bohras say LAANAT to Khulfa-e-Raashdin"

As far as what I know Agakhanis have gone out of 'Laanat' Business. That is all I wanted to convey.

I also wanted to correct that Laanat is not sent by Shias on all 4 but 1,2 and 3. As far as I am concerned it is worthless. Prophet has given all 4 Basharat of Jannah.

BTW all Shias except Agakhanis are in Laanat business. Worship of Imaams and cursing go hand -in-hand.

Wasalaam
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MF brother, Dont take it on your heart. It happens in big cities.

I have yet to find a logical reason for cursing anyone. Let alone by religious leaders, who claim to represent the very faith, whose founders they disagree with.

The history is a bygone act, what happened had happened. Good or bad, virtue or evil. We cant judge now or after. Best judge will be Allah on dooms day.

Akber bhai petiwala's advice is for everyelse sans himself. Akber bhai your advice is the main reason, why there is no coversion in islam in the last 20 or so years.. Only criminals in us jails are actively embracing it. You should really think about it, why violent people are finding it suitable for them to embrace. Akber bhai minding one's own business would not get any one any where.

Lest we rise, call spade a spade, be soothsayers against tyrants, may they be religious or political. Courage is a unique human quality. Bravery is always kind. cowadice is selfish.

Lest we rise, call spade a spade, be soothsayers against tyrants, may they be religious or political. Courage is a unique human quality. Bravery is always kind. cowadice is selfish.[/QB]

Assalamu Alaykum.

Bhaisaheb, agree. But we can win the battle/heart only by our good action/strategy and not by gaali and galoch. No matter how hard you try, but these people who fear social boycott more than Allah s.w.t., will not protest the glittering but deceiful throne.

Let us discuss the way to enlighten ourselves and all other ignorant ones.

Akbar Bhai Petiwala,
Just a cursory look at the posts made here will tell you who actually indulges in 'gali galoch'.

Originally posted by accountability:

...your advice is the main reason, why there is no coversion in islam in the last 20 or so years.. Only criminals in us jails are actively embracing it. You should really think about it, why violent people are finding it suitable for them to embrace. .

Are they all really criminals and violent?One should really think about it again.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7916/eu ... s-to-islam
(The New York Times, via The International Herald Tribune, USA)

Islam is Europe’s fastest-growing religion, and while there are no reliable statistics, many experts say they believe that the number of converts has grown since Sept. 11, 2001, in many ways because of the campaign against terrorism.
Antoine Sfeir, a French scholar who is writing a book on the trend, said a small number of converts, many of them disaffected and often troubled young people, saw the current wave of Islamic terrorism as “a kind of combat against the rich, powerful, by the poor men of the planet.”
Only a small fraction of Western Islamic converts sympathize with terrorism, and even fewer become engaged in terrorist activity. A few dozen militant converts have been identified so far. A report by France’s domestic intelligence agency, published by Le Figaro, estimated last year that there were 30,000 to 50,000 converts in France.
However small the number of them drawn to terrorism, the police are focusing on this subset as a serious and growing threat.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 35,00.html
(Nurit Palter Published: 07.13.06, 00:20 / Israel News )

Most are Jewish and Christian women who convert after choosing to marry Muslim men. The number of men who convert to Islam is far lower, but has also seen a rise.
“Jews say they decided to convert after deepening their knowledge of Islam. Many are disappointed in Judaism,” a senior member of the Islamic court said.

In the past, the Religious Affairs and Interior Ministries made it very difficult for Jews to convert to Islam. “They are giving me the runaround, sending me back and forth from office to office. They made me see a psychiatrist, to ‘make sure I wasn’t brainwashed.’ They did everything so that I would despair and return to Judaism,” one convert related.

The data revealed that the reverse phenomenon of Muslims converting to Judaism is significantly lower. In the first half of this year, there were only seven conversions to Judaism.

http://www.alhewar.com/nyt_islam_attracts.htm
Islam Attracts Converts by the Thousands
by Jodi Wilgoren, The New York Times, 10/22/2001

...With some 6 million adherents in the United States, Islam is said to be the nation's fastest-growing religion, fueled by immigration, high birth rates and widespread conversion. One expert estimates that 25,000 people a year become Muslims in this country; some clerics say they have seen conversion rates quadruple since Sept. 11.
Experts say Islam is attractive because of its universal message - the faithful believe that everyone is born Muslim and thus call the transformation reversion, not conversion - and because its teachings incorporate other traditions, honoring Jesus Christ, the Jewish patriarch Abraham and other Biblical figures as prophets. Though missionary work is rare in Islam, spreading the message is demanded by the Koran. Conversion is as simple as reciting one sentence - "I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger" - in front of witnesses, a ceremony known as Shahadah.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/ ... 41,00.html
Interest in Islam mounts after hijacking atrocity
Martin Bright

A year ago they feared their religion would be tarred by the atrocities that left over 3,000 dead in the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. But Muslims across Britain are now crediting an '11 September factor' for the upsurge of interest in their religion.
From Islamic bookshops and university comparative religion courses to the dusty corridors of Whitehall, non-Muslims are rushing to find out more about the beliefs of Islam and the life of the Prophet Mohammed.
Sales of the Muslim holy book, the Koran, have gone through the roof. Penguin, the publishers of the best-known English-language translation of the Koran, registered a 15-fold increase in the three months following 11 September and sales have held up well since.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.
Some scholars see an emerging Muslim renaissance as Islam takes root in many traditionally Christian communities.
Islam has drawn converts from all walks of life, most notably African-Americans. Former NAACP President Benjamin Chavis, who joined the Nation of Islam recently, personifies the trend.
"In societies where you have minorities that are discriminated against, I think they may find an appeal in Islam," said Waleed Kazziha of American University in Cairo.

(http://sultan.org/articles/convert.html)

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More Hispanic Americans are Converting to Islam

I am not sure these are not criminals Br. AC

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Again no statastics, just rhetorics. Prove what you are saying by numbers, or by personal experience.

Leave america and europe aside. They are not fertile ground for conversion, they are free and prosporous.

Take indian schedule casts, they are more converting to christianity and budhism to escape from caste system.

I have heard one interview on cbc last year from schedule cast leader, that the reason they are embracing islam, is, they do not want to be bounded by other system, after leaving one they are in.

I do not think there is any merit for any kind of conversion. All missionery activities by all religions should be totally banned, because what these missioneries are doing, is creating another underpriviliged, fundamentalist converts class.

The convertees become more intense, to prove to themselves that their desicion was right.

Religions should give its believer, atleast this much freedom as to ask the authenticity and logic of its command, and it relevence to this century.

You did not answer my one simple question, would you judge a rape victim adultress, if you are a judge, and she can not produce four male witnesses, thought she has DNA witness.

I dont know, if islam wants more of the convertees like Louis Farrakhan and nation of islam.

Ask Yousuf Islam aka cat stevens if he believes in sharia penal codes.

accty,

Again no statastics, just rhetorics. Prove what you are saying by numbers, or by personal experience.

Someone like you should not be asking for proof. How many times have you produced any proof for any of your claims? Like porus, you can only throw accusations and then refuse even to understand the explanation. If you don't like Islam become a christian or a buddhist. If you think Islam is converting the wrong kind of people, then you are a racist and should not be a muslim. If you think the preachers of Islam are doing it wrong then you go out and start preaching.

Imagine if the prophet had thought like you do

All missionery activities by all religions should be totally banned

your *** would've been a freaking kafir, if you are not one already.

The convertees become more intense, to prove to themselves that their desicion was right.

More of your stupid logic. That is one of the reasons why most convertees are actually better muslims than you are. These convertees actaully take the time to study the quran and try to understand it and not use it to go to sleep.

Religions should give its believer, atleast this much freedom as to ask the authenticity and logic of its command, and it relevence to this century.

What the hell do you think you are doing over here if not questioning your religion? You have every freedom to do it and if you do not get good answers you have the freedom to apostate. Become a christian or a buddhist. And since we haven't been able to give you answers that have satisfied you, you should seriously think about apostating.

You did not answer my one simple question, would you judge a rape victim adultress, if you are a judge, and she can not produce four male witnesses, thought she has DNA witness.

DNA evidence only proves sex and not forceful sex. And with pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex rampant these days, accusing someone of rape for the sake of revenge and producing evidence (DNA as you state) would be pretty easy. So yes, if I am a judge and if I am not convinced with the evidence that I have, I will declare the woman an adulteress.

A couple of recent incidences come to mind and none of them have anything to do with Islam and the entire country is well aware of them.

There was a rape charge recently against Kobe Bryant, but the only thing that that case proved was that both Kobe and the girl in question were adulterers.

Then there was an incident in LA last year where a girl was violated on a pool table and the entire episode was recorded on video. The jury, even after watching the video, was unconvinced that it was rape as charged by the female. What it did prove however was that the girl and the guys were all adulterers.

Path to Allah s.w.t. is reforming one's self first. How many of us are fault free ? If Dawoodi Bohra people believe in their Aaqa Maula, let them. Do they hurt you in your struggle to be good muslim ? Why do you think that these people do not have brains ? How many of you did preaching to non believers? Are you 100% sure that you are following Islam in its original form ?

Instead of pointing fingers at others, please look inward and try to better yourself. Do not waste time in finding fault of the people you consider blind followers. Instead work hard to improve yourself and inspire non believers to Islam by your acts.

Very well Said


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Yes, very well said indeed . Just that Imam Hussain didn't think the same.

Originally posted by tahir:
Yes, very well said indeed . Just that Imam Hussain didn't think the same.

La-kum deen-kum Wa Lee-deeni



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Originally posted by Gulf:

Originally posted by tahir:
Yes, very well said indeed . Just that Imam Hussain didn't think the same.

La-kum deen-kum Wa Lee-deeni



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I am so impressed by your let-others-livism-look-withinism. If the dai takes a leaf from your book, he'd stop torturing people who are born to bohra parents but doesn't agree with his idea of religion.

The progressive movement has started precisely because the Dai's faculty of looking within is rendered defunct due to 'system' error.

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Br. Gulf
AS

This is reference to your post where you used Ayah of Quran to to state that this gives everybody to have Islam their own way.

Before you post Ayah of Qur'an better study it (I am sorry, if you are a Bohra then you are not suppose to study Qur'an, only read it).

FYI "La-kum deen-kum Wa Lee-deeni" An ayah for Sura Al-Kafirun is addressed to Kaafirs that is Unbelievers of Islam and is not to justify deviant versions of Islam.

Wasalaam
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MF,

Is there a non-deviant version of Islam other than Wahabism ?

Anajmi,

What it did prove however was that the girl and the guys were all adulterers.

Adultery is not a crime in secular law. The cases you site hinge on consensual sex (not a crime) vs. rape cases. The woman is not convicted automatically of adultery were she to lose the case. Therein lies the difference; a Muslim woman may only prove rape if she were gang raped and (a) 4 of the rapists decide to confess (b) 4 onlookers admit to not doing anything about it, just watching. Not a realistic scenario in a non-Wahabi world. Perhaps you can site some examples of rape cases successfully litigated under Sharia.

Question: What is the punishment for rape in Islam? What happens to the rape victim?


Answered by Sheikh Sulaymân al-`خsâ, professor at al-Imâm University in Riyadh

If it is confirmed that a man engaged in sexual intercourse with a woman by threatening to kill her or by using some kind of drug or anesthetic, then his crime will be more serious than that of consentual sex.

The punishment thereto is death by execution. He will not be entitled to any pardon or reprieve whatsoever, regardless of whether he was single or married.

The one who forces sex upon someone else under threat of death is an evil and vile member of the society and should be purged. He is involved in an act of open violence and transgression against others and the spread of mischief throughout the land. His is the fate of bandits and highway robbers:

Allah says: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 33]

A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment. Our Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Allah has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness, and what they are coerced into doing” [Related by Ibn Mâjah and authenticated by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr, and al-Albânî].

Also, it was related by Ibn Abî Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahâb that a woman accused of adultery was taken to Caliph `Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. `Umar released the woman. [The narration was approved by al-Albâni]. Ibn Qudâmah stated in his book al-Mughnî: “There is no punishment on the woman who was coerced into adultery.”

A close look at the related verse of the Qur'an shows that it neither relates to the required evidence for rape cases nor for that of ordinary cases of fornication. On the contrary, it relates to the particular situation in which a person, who is generally known to be chaste and pious, is accused of fornication. For this particular case, the Qur'an says:

Those who accuse chaste women of fornication and then do not provide four witnesses [to evidence their accusation] strike them with eighty strips and do not accept their witness ever after. (Al-Noor 24: 4)

Keeping the stresses of the words of the referred verse in perspective, it is quite clear that the verse does not relate to the evidence required to prove a case of rape. On the contrary, it actually relates to protecting chaste women (as well as men) from false accusations of fornication. In other words, the verse is not prescribing the minimum number of witnesses to prove a case of rape or fornication; it is actually prescribing the minimum number of witnesses, which must be present and willing to testify against those accused of fornication, to initiate any court proceedings or to admit a case against such accused. This is quite clear from the fact that in the absence of the prescribed number of witnesses, the verse prescribes a severe punishment for the person/persons making the accusation.

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AB wrote

Is there a non-deviant version of Islam other than Wahabism ?

In this forum ( Deviation in Wahabism ), I want you to make your case supported by Ahadith (any source) and Qur'an.

Go for it brother.

Wasalaam
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MF,

I am asking you who is "non"-deviant besides the Wahabis ? I am already granting you "perfect" Muslim status.

Again, Is there a non-deviant version of Islam other than Wahabism ?

Average Moron,

If the onlookers were all Average Morons, they'd probably assume that what was happening was consensual sex.

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Br. AB

Now that you insist.

Shasm in all its manifestation is deviant Islam.

"Not deviant Islam" is one in witch you worship Allah and Allah alone., stick to teachings of Qur'an and Sunnah of prophet to best your ability.

Wahabis will probably thank you for your endorsement.

Wasalaam
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