Progressive matam

[Hussain_KSA]

Freedom of choice as explained by a dictators chella

Can you refute my statements instead of name calling.

Progressives were part of Mainstream before 35 years, so where is question of our not following dai after 46 arises? Just because of few indiviual's statment dont bring all progressive togeather.

[ozmujaheed]

I am a son of dawoodi bohra family, my spouse is dawoodi bohra, my kids are taught that they are decendents of dawoodi bohras...yet I do not believe in all the teachings of the Diais, I choose what to accept and what to ignore, which I will admit are very few that I see make logic, I choose to attend Sunni , Shia , bohra mosques, I also attend church and synogogue when required.

I am an Australian Muslim of Indian Bohra ethnicity

Hence I do not see any issue with different flavors of matam, appearance , rituals

I dare any abde to deny me my heritage, association with my family members and cultural links

[anajmi]

Yes it is if it is paid for by others willingly or, as in most cases, unwillingly. -- How do you know? False accusation is also a sin.

Not a false accusation. I know because I was amongst those who used to pay unwillingly. There are scores of progressives who have a problem paying extortion to the Dai and there are scores of abde who have the same problem but cannot say anything because of the punishment that the kothar would subject them to.

Is it like if you convert others than only you are muslim?

Do you even know what a "Dai" is? Do you know what "Dawat" is? Your ignorance baffles me!!

016.125
YUSUFALI: Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
012.108
YUSUFALI: Say thou: "This is my way: I do invite unto Allah,- on evidence clear as the seeing with one's eyes,- I and whoever follows me. Glory to Allah! and never will I join gods with Allah!"


Here Allah is telling anyone who follows the prophet (saw) to also invite unto Allah.

It is your belief & not of Dawoodi Bohras & this include progressives also. Just being muslim is not enough you need to have love for his imam & dai. Yazeed (LA) & Muwaviya (LA) were muslim and everybody knows where they are burning.

Correct. My belief is according to Islam. Dawoodi Bohra - ism is a later day invention by corruptors of Islam. If you had been true, you wouldn't be changing your belief to Dawoodi Bohra belief. You would've still been following Islamic belief. Your Dai is no different than Yazid and Muawiya having tried to crush his opposition at every opportunity, bowing down to enemies of Islam and looting his own abde idiots.

[anajmi]

Imams were kings of there times were living opulent lifestyle from there own money and not begging and looting like syedna and his family and as i dont have enough knowledge about them would not like to answer this and will leave for some other members to answer .

Precisely. These Imams created Imamat just like the Dai has created Dawat to enjoy opulent lifestyles. Period. The Imams got the money from where? Were they born rich? I thought the Imams are descendents of Hazrat Ali and Imam Hussain who weren't kings and didn't have a lot of wealth. How did the Imams become kings?

[seeker110]

Is it possible that some of those married rich.Just like our Nabi.Were better business man.Enjoyed the bounties of farming.Only the 51 had no intelligence to make it the old fashioned way.He was just a bigger Dawoud Bhai.

[JC]

A very simple thing ........ if you will bow to one human being, you will bow to hundred more ........ Imams looted (or lets say 'collected') when they somehow assumed power ......... a (political) party came to power, it named itself Ahl-e-Bayt or Imamat Party and started amassing wealth any other political party in a corrupt society. The party's main manefesto was that they are Divine Rulers .......... and the idea sell like anything ....... Tayyab had to run away for various reasons when he lost power ........ this is all fairly tale and made up stories on something else that Hurat-ul-Malika was 'authorized' to start the 'Dawat' ........... since Imam was gone, someone in Yemen thought of carrying the 'flag' or they would have lost whatever power and following they had there in the name of Imam. Hence Zoaib took over as Naib Imam sort and start calling himself Dai or may be Dai-ul-Mutlaq (Mutlaq was added to tell people that effective then he was 'sole' power since Imam was gone and hence he no more stayed only Dai).

Today, they do not have land or counrtry. But they continue to rule and collect 'taxes' ........... they are infact better off, nothing to defend, and money keeps on coming in, their Raeat (Slaves) are accros the globe and pay in all major currencies ......... they live in palaces with only one thing to do - RULE ........... and enjoy. Since there is no land or nation, they have to give some sort of identity, and that is Dawat-e-Hadaya, your utopia sate or Dai-dom.....

[Hussain_KSA]

yeah thats the point,he cant eat more but still he doesnt stops people from making so many dishes and keep them in thaal,this is what is called ishraaf

Welcome bakc Labbaik ya hussain, Aala Maqam or Ishq with new identity.

[truebohra]

Can you refute my statements instead of name calling.

Progressives were part of Mainstream before 35 years, so where is question of our not following dai after 46 arises? Just because of few indiviual's statment dont bring all progressive togeather.

Hussain,
What happened before 35 years?
I can consider you apart from other progressive if you say so. But i can point you out official article from the mouthpiece website having doubts about the nass after 46th dai.
It a fact even the flag bearer of the movement have agreed the original schism appeared after 46th Dai. Slowly the cancer of hate towards dawat expanded to the level that it culminated in what is called the progressive of today.

[Humsafar]

It a fact even the flag bearer of the movement have agreed the original schism appeared after 46th Dai. Slowly the cancer of hate towards dawat expanded to the level that it culminated in what is called the progressive of today.

To point out a schism is not the same thing as believing in it. Reformists are not interested and do not care (officially) about nass and succession issues. Our fight is not against the legitimacy of the Dai but the illegitimacy of the "royal family" and the mafia clergy that has hijacked the Dawat. It's not that you abdes can't see the difference between these two positions. You just do not want to see it. Or you all are so thoroughly brainwashed that the legitimate Dai and the illegitimate mafia clergy seem one and the same to you. But they are not, and can never be the same no matter what tradition, what hidden taawil and what great (secret) ilm of all the learned shahzadas you invoke.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 755#p88201

Hey Dr Faustian, that was quite a rant man. Somebody rattled your cage pretty violently, I guess. You're right, there are many willing abdes like you who love their slavery and love to shower najwas and wajebats to the mafia clergy but you have to understand that the reform movement is not for people like you. We know the likes of you are beyond the pale, and we've long given up on you. The reform movement and this forum is for the silent majority who is not happy with the system. You might have noticed that the majority of members here are not card-carrying reformists (not that we've cards) but e-jamat card carrying bohras who are unwilling abdes. That must tell you something. Reformists are the voice for people like my friend who is fed up with extortion and heavy-handedness of the mafia clergy and is looking for a way out. So, pls take a chill pill and relax. You're welcome to speak up for your constituency of willing abdes but you know that you don't have to, this whole shebang is not for you people.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Slowly the cancer of hate towards dawat expanded

TB,

its funny how sometimes fanatic abdes like you point towards the truth, albeit unknowingly..

dawat means literally (in our context) inviting non-believers towards religion and faith and dai is one who does the religious duty of inviting. yes, it is true what you mention. the last 2 dai's have shown complete hatred towards inviting and converting non-believers into our faith. this aversion to doing their religious duty which is supposed to be their primary mission, has spread like a cancer and diseased the gullible minds of slaves like you and your other abde friends.

i am glad that atleast on your sick bed you are going out with truth on your lips.

[truebohra]

It a fact even the flag bearer of the movement have agreed the original schism appeared after 46th Dai. Slowly the cancer of hate towards dawat expanded to the level that it culminated in what is called the progressive of today.

To point out a schism is not the same thing as believing in it. Reformists are not interested and do not care (officially) about nass and succession issues. Our fight is not against the legitimacy of the Dai but the illegitimacy of the "royal family" and the mafia clergy that has hijacked the Dawat. It's not that you abdes can't see the difference between these two positions. You just do not want to see it. Or you all are so thoroughly brainwashed that the legitimate Dai and the illegitimate mafia clergy seem one and the same to you. But they are not, and can never be the same no matter what tradition, what hidden taawil and what great (secret) ilm of all the learned shahzadas you invoke.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 755#p88201

Hey Dr Faustian, that was quite a rant man. Somebody rattled your cage pretty violently, I guess. You're right, there are many willing abdes like you who love their slavery and love to shower najwas and wajebats to the mafia clergy but you have to understand that the reform movement is not for people like you. We know the likes of you are beyond the pale, and we've long given up on you. The reform movement and this forum is for the silent majority who is not happy with the system. You might have noticed that the majority of members here are not card-carrying reformists (not that we've cards) but e-jamat card carrying bohras who are unwilling abdes. That must tell you something. Reformists are the voice for people like my friend who is fed up with extortion and heavy-handedness of the mafia clergy and is looking for a way out. So, pls take a chill pill and relax. You're welcome to speak up for your constituency of willing abdes but you know that you don't have to, this whole shebang is not for you people.

Humsafar,
It bitter pill but you have to swallow it. In the garb of reform movement you are attacking the legitimate Dai himself . It understandable your frustration & inability to disown the current Dai with respect to your official position. Yes you are a way out of legitimate dawoodi-bohra fold as similar to satan's way who is ready to incite. Yes, there are few like your freind who can find solace in your fold. & its not the matter of majority or minority Haq will remain even it there is one Muklhlis Mumin however alhamdolillah we are majority & in lacs. The proof is attendance of your annual conference cannot match attendance e of our single majlis. however you try to hide fight against the Dai (tus) in the garb of administrative reform you cannot. The personal vendetta of your forefathers & few self claimed righteous individuals of today has defined your movement. So you take a chill pill & relax and be assured you will die fighting like you bygones & Dawat & Duats & abdes will keep on flourishing.

[truebohra]

Slowly the cancer of hate towards dawat expanded

TB,

its funny how sometimes fanatic abdes like you point towards the truth, albeit unknowingly..

dawat means literally (in our context) inviting non-believers towards religion and faith and dai is one who does the religious duty of inviting. yes, it is true what you mention. the last 2 dai's have shown complete hatred towards inviting and converting non-believers into our faith. this aversion to doing their religious duty which is supposed to be their primary mission, has spread like a cancer and diseased the gullible minds of slaves like you and your other abde friends.

i am glad that atleast on your sick bed you are going out with truth on your lips.

AZ, It clear who is sick with the disease of deceit. It truly defines your satanic personality of distorting the meaning by picking up sentences & quoting it out of context.

[profastian]

You might have noticed that the majority of members here are not card-carrying reformists (not that we've cards) but e-jamat card carrying bohras who are unwilling abdes. That must tell you something. Reformists are the voice for people like my friend who is fed up with extortion and heavy-handedness of the mafia clergy and is looking for a way out. So, pls take a chill pill and relax. You're welcome to speak up for your constituency of willing abdes but you know that you don't have to, this whole shebang is not for you people.

Yeah thats right, the willing abdes make you guys shiver in your boots... You guys are only good for corrupting a few poor mis guided adbes. The category of people in the reformist cause are
1) People who do not want to pay wajebats but enjoy all the food and facilities
2) People who do no want to follow sharia, keep beard, pay zakat
3) Wanna be activist, desperate to find a cause where there is none.
4) Wanna be aalims snubbed by the Syedna for their giant egos.
5) People corrupted by deobandis and wahabis ideals.
6) People vying for the piece of the power.
7) People who are too dumb, and who get bored during the ilmi majilis.
People who had some sort of fight with the local jamaat members or amils and in their ignorance blame the DAI.
9) Educated people (by degrees but in reality jahils) who consider themselves free thinkers and would have eventually snubbed whatever faith or denomination they had been born into. Such people can be found across all religions and faiths.
10) People born into a reformist household or having a reformist parent.
All the reformists you boast about on this site, fit into one of these categories and these certainly are not a majority.

[seeker110]

Br Pro You sound just like the politicians here in USA.See our government hires mercenaries,They cut education.Our leaders are beyond stupid.They promote stupidity.Our media (in your case Malumat) is a joke.Our redetion and detention is similar to your Barat.Now any sensible person can see its a freight train in full speed without brakes.Have courage and open your eyes. Perfect case of denial.
We are the Arab Spring.the 99%.The Wall Street crowd.Your infrastructure will soon collapse. We have nothing to loose.You are the ones holding the bag.We might have F in your Daism,but we also have A in logic.

[Conscíous]

Dr prof,
Why have you forgotten to mention justice, equality, freedom to speak and choose in your category of those supporting the reformist ??

[Humsafar]

..its not the matter of majority or minority Haq will remain...

Correct, and Haq is not with the violators of very tenet of Islam and Fatimid dawat.

Faust, great list and very self-serving too. The fact remains that people are fed up and are eager for change. The Bohra Spring will come and when it comes let's hope the scenes of the French Revolution will not be repeated when last priest was hung by the entrails of the last prince.

[Al Zulfiqar]

[

distorting the meaning by picking up sentences & quoting it out of context.

TB (tuberculosis bacillus)

what is out of context? you talked of dawat..! do you know the meaning of dawat?

tell me, has the syedna or his good-for-nothing ayyash sons ever done their duty of 'dawat' by converting even a single non-bohra into our faith? in fact they have a hatred for their religious duties and that cancer has spread, along with other highly contagious diseases (TB) into your willing and submissive mind and body.

why dont you direct your anger and frustration at them? send them an arzi expressing your disgust.

[Maqbool]

1) People who do not want to pay wajebats but enjoy all the food and facilities

Is the wajebat is charges for food and faceilities!!

[profastian]

1) People who do not want to pay wajebats but enjoy all the food and facilities

Is the wajebat is charges for food and faceilities!!

Yes, the wajebats include niyaz and sabeel, these are for food and facilities.

[humanbeing]

Yes, the wajebats include niyaz and sabeel, these are for food and facilities.

Hi Profastian
I think you are mistaken, Wajebaat does not include Niyaz or sabeel.
Niyaz : is a voluntary payment to organize jaman.
Sabeel : is a monthly collection for upkeep of the administration
Wajebaat : Majorly it is stated as Zakaat + several other taxes such as (Khummus, Ikram, Haqqun Nafs)

Correct me if I m wrong please.

[guy_sam2005]

Can you refute my statements instead of name calling.

Progressives were part of Mainstream before 35 years, so where is question of our not following dai after 46 arises? Just because of few indiviual's statment dont bring all progressive togeather.

so differentiate urself from them first...u cannot claim to follow syedna(tus) and be a syedna basher too........

[SBM]

Is the wajebat is charges for food and faceilities!!

Yes, the wajebats include niyaz and sabeel, these are for food and facilities.

Pro..Factstatin
No Wajebaats is not for food and facilities. Go and check your Wajebaat Form
Sabeel is for maintenance of Markaaz and other incidental expenses
Hubb; Amount of money taken for Niyaaz and different Darees
Niyaz: Every family is required to do two or three Niyaz which family has to pay for food, cleaning and najwa to Aaamil
[u]Pro
No wonder Kothari Goons do not need to give any accounting since the die hard Abde has no idea what is Wajebaat and where does
the money comes for food and facilities. That is called Blind Abde[/u]

[seeker110]

Here, you go again,trying to mess up blind Abde faith with logic and reason.Do you guys realize how much work it takes to kill doctrines and change practices?

[profastian]

Here, you go again,trying to mess up blind Abde faith with logic and reason.Do you guys realize how much work it takes to kill doctrines and change practices?

Category 11

[Muslim First]

trubohra posted
Just being muslim is not enough you need to have love for his imam & dai. Yazeed (LA) & Muwaviya (LA) were muslim and everybody knows where they are burning.

Br TB
you need to learn "who is Muslim"

Here is defination from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim

A Muslim, (Arabic: مسلم‎) also spelled Moslem,[1] is an adherent of Islam, a monotheistic, Abrahamic religion based on the Quran, which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God as revealed to prophet Muhammad. "Muslim" is an Arabic term for "one who submits to God".

Muslims believe that God is one and incomparable.[2] Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed at many times and places before, including through the prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus.[3] Muslims maintain that previous messages and revelations have been partially changed or corrupted over time,[4] but consider the Quran to be both unaltered and the final revelation from God—Final Testament.[5]

Most Muslims accept as a Muslim anyone who has publicly pronounced the Shahadah (declaration of faith) which states, "I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God and I testify that Muhammad is a Messenger of God." Their religious practices include daily prayers (salat), fasting during Ramadan (sawm), almsgiving (zakat), and the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime.[6][7]

Please show me where in Qur’an or Ahadith of Prophet Dai is mentioned? (In case you do not know Ahadith is plural for Hadith) Where does it say you have to love and worship a special group called Ahl e bait? And do you know different Shia group has different Imams in Ahl e bait.

[profastian]

trubohra posted
Just being muslim is not enough you need to have love for his imam & dai. Yazeed (LA) & Muwaviya (LA) were muslim and everybody knows where they are burning.

Br TB
you need to learn "who is Muslim"

Here is defination from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim

A Muslim, (Arabic: مسلم‎) also spelled Moslem,[1] is an adherent of Islam, a monotheistic, Abrahamic religion based on the Quran, which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God as revealed to prophet Muhammad. "Muslim" is an Arabic term for "one who submits to God".

Muslims believe that God is one and incomparable.[2] Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed at many times and places before, including through the prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus.[3] Muslims maintain that previous messages and revelations have been partially changed or corrupted over time,[4] but consider the Quran to be both unaltered and the final revelation from God—Final Testament.[5]

Most Muslims accept as a Muslim anyone who has publicly pronounced the Shahadah (declaration of faith) which states, "I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God and I testify that Muhammad is a Messenger of God." Their religious practices include daily prayers (salat), fasting during Ramadan (sawm), almsgiving (zakat), and the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime.[6][7]

Please show me where in Qur’an or Ahadith of Prophet Dai is mentioned? (In case you do not know Ahadith is plural for Hadith) Where does it say you have to love and worship a special group called Ahl e bait? And do you know different Shia group has different Imams in Ahl e bait.

He said being Muslims is not enough, not that others are not muslims. there is a difference between the two. We also agree with the definition of a Muslim given by you...

[Maqbool]

Is the wajebat is charges for food and faceilities!!

Yes, the wajebats include niyaz and sabeel, these are for food and facilities.

You have proved that how ignorant you are about our religion. At least do some homework before saying any thing on this board.

[fearAllah]

Can you point out Extravagant or wasteful spending of food /drink / clothets by Sayedna?
I expect not you all not to jump & rant. Give meaningful example.

Even the walking stick Burhan Kaka uses is gold plated which costs thousands of dollars....

[ghulam muhammed]

Even the walking stick Burhan Kaka uses is gold plated which costs thousands of dollars....

Have you noticed the 24 carat Rolex (or is it Piaget/Patek Phillipe) watch on his hand although he himself says that wearing gold is haraam for a mumin. And the 18 carat gold taps fitted in his and his zaadas bathrooms ? And a water fountain installed in his bedroom ? For further examples of the AYYASHI please refer the thread "Inside Saifee Mahal".

[seeker110]

Those walking sticks are suppose to be light as a pen.Who would want one that weighs so much.Did the Bhagwan go hunting without hiking.