My Small Rebellions !!

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

My Small Rebellions !!

#1

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:57 am

Dear Friends

In our life we have either observed or experienced wrongdoings of the office holder in our community. We may have not rebelled on public level. We may have suffered in silence; we may have given up our respect for sake of our family. Somewhere the rebel within us cries out loud !

Let share our rebellions to the system at micro level. In our day to day life interactions. I hope we share our experiences in positive spirit, where we defended rights against wrong.
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My interactions with Jamaat office holders is discouraged by my family due to my objectionable attitude towards its practices. I have an account of instances where I have defied or back answered high rank office holders in local jamat for unreasonable questioning such as regards to keeping a beard, wearing a topi all the time or shelling out monies as demanded by them for “Hoob”, objecting to buy masalla space or question legality of unreasonable charges / contributions.

Local Jamaat office holders (Amil or Sheikh) are so egoistic and proudy, they cant event stand me looking in their eyes and talk, they deem it as disrespectful and arrogant. Whereas I refuse to bow / kneel down and kiss their knees, although I greet them with traditional salaam (without money) as expression of respect towards elders.

I may not have an inspiring or provoking story of rebellion against the system yet ! However I would request other members on this forum to come forward and share their story.

Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#2

Unread post by Conscíous » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:20 am

Hey HB,
I don't know, what you mean by "wrongdoing"?? But according to our "new bohra doctrine" (which is full of innovations, that you have partly accepted and want to implement on others against their own Will ) ,I've never experienced or observed any wrongdoing by the one's who have a position and run our community..

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#3

Unread post by Smart » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:59 pm

@humanbeing,
The problem is with the semantics and lexicon you adapt. To begin with, your frame of thought and expression is non abde.
Why? You may legitimately ask me.

Let us get to the basics. The concept of right and wrong in the abde thought regime is not based on any principle or value. It is based on a human entity and his razaa. There has been a long fight in India, between "Tatwa-nishtha" or loyalty to principles, versus, "Vyakti-nishtha", loyalty to a person. Islam is based on a set of principles and values. The cult of syedna is based on the person on gaadi. This tradition of person centric ideology has systematically been promoted by the last 2 dais for the last 100 years.

So when you mention "wrongdoing", you are referring to your set of values. In abde terms, it is "rightdoing". The syedna has appointed them as his deputies and instructed him. This is sufficient in an abde's mind for all their actions to be rightdoing.

The same approach applies to the rest of the things.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#4

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Smart wrote:There has been a long fight in India, between "Tatwa-nishtha" or loyalty to principles, versus, "Vyakti-nishtha", loyalty to a person.
There is also a long tradition in hindus of "murti-pooja" which according to some of them has been refined to "Vyakti-pooja". Bohras fall under the refined category of "Vyakti-pooja".

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#5

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:22 am

Hi Smart
My apologies with wrong use of terminology. What I intend to convey is the logically wrong practices in the community by the office holders. Many a times even a hardcore believer in the community deems certain actions or practice of the office holders as wrong. But some may or may not rebel or object openly as revolt. With respect to old or innovative guidelines, principals, rules, policies it really depends on individual how he / she wants to adapt to it. Some adapt all and some adapt selective. It’s a subjective situation !
The cult of syedna is based on the person on gaadi. This tradition of person centric ideology has systematically been promoted by the last 2 dais for the last 100 years.

I agree with your point of view on how the community is oriented towards Person rather than Principle. However if we see Bohra History our ancestors or forefathers have been oriented to follow guidelines spiritually and materially from the office holders of the community. May be in past not extensively but in subjective cases. Which has compounded to present day in all matters of our lives.

Tradition of person centric ideology has been propagated since times of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), please don’t read me in negative light. What I m trying to say here is, Hadith and sayings of prophet is relied in conjuction / reference with preachings of Quran. Ofcourse Prophet is Infallible and Prophet quoted and preached everything from Quran, lived by Quran words and open to share source of knowledge. Since inception of religions, followers have associated their faith with leaders or torch bearers of faith. Expressed a preference towards being lead and guided by another, rather than ownself. We always require a leader Shiaa requires (Imaams to Daai), Christians rely on Pope, Hindus Rely on Rishi Pandits.

We don’t perform Nikaah ourselves, Burial prayers ourselves, We require some priestly intervention to fulfil our occasions in life. I understand that Islam does not restrict a person to priestly authority. But in real practical world do we follow Pure principals of Islam ? We have Amils, Moulvis, Qazi to guide or consult for personal ocassions, believe that they are more pious and closer to Allah by virtue of their knowledge and dedicated life to religion. In general practice do Qazi, Moulvi, Amil have a career / profession / business other than religious preachings ?

All the communities and people of other faiths have been oriented towards person centric ideology respectively, as they believe that only that person / group of persons are supreme and authentic authority to interpret the books of God.

It would be unfair to deem bohra mumins as only person oriented community. Although the fanaticsm and attachement is extreme, leading to blind faith and practices. With this arguement I m not trying to justify the manipulations of faith and basic ideologies of Islam.
The problem is with the semantics and lexicon you adapt. To begin with, your frame of thought and expression is non abde.
Why? You may legitimately ask me.
Why ! educate me.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#6

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:36 am

humanbeing
Tradition of person centric ideology has been propagated since times of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), please don’t read me in negative light.
Brother read the history of Islam. Prophet SAW did not propagate cult of Muhammad but promoted Anti Idolatry and worship of Allah Talla alone.

Bhoras and Shias have propagated worship of dynasty and worship of dead people since the death of Prophet SAW.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#7

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:03 am

Dear MF

Please read my post a little more further to the lines you quoted from my text. When I said person oriented, I meant muslims worldwide today still give highest reverence to Prophet Muhammad and Asahaabs. And I have no where in my post mentioned that Prophet preached Idolatry.

My Argument is not about worshipping, my argument is about dependence on an intermediary human being for our worldy occasions or guidance. Muslims be it any sections have priestly class with importance and influence in muslim’s society. There are Mullas, Moulvis, Sheikhs, Amils issuing fatwas and influencing lives of Muslims (Correct or Biased).

How did you get married ? How do you plan to get your kids married ? or any other Islamic ritual which requires priestly presence. Dear MF, please don’t take my questions as personal offense. I just wish to convey our dependence on priestly class.

anajmi
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:46 am

Where there is no priestly class, there are law officers and courts. You can be married outside of these things, but no one will then recognize your marriage.

In Islam, performing a marriage ceremony is not a duty of the priestly class. A father of the bride can perform the nikaah ceremony. Same is the case with every other ritual. Unfortunately, most fathers have no clue how to perform this ceremony. Hence the need for the mullahs and maulvis. Let me ask you a question, do you know how to perform Ghusl to a dead body? Most of us do not. Hence we need other people to do these things for us. Unlike bohra knowledge of Islam, the true knowledge of Islam and its rituals is not hidden from anybody. The only problem is that we are too lazy to learn these things ourselves when others are available, for a price, to do these things for us. Sometimes we come across people like the bohra clergy who will take advantage of this ignorance of people and milk them.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#9

Unread post by accountability » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:55 pm

Humanebeing: You are doing perfectly right thing, to stand tall against any oppression is real bravery. If more of us would act like you and not succumb to their pressure, these guys (jamat ) will not be able to humilate anyone.
You are also right about personal touch in every religion. Christians rever christ as son of God and/or part of God. Islam and its theology is also based on Prophet's personal behaviour and actions. Quran itself gives guidance, but to practice you have to look to Prophet's life and practices.

Conscíous
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#10

Unread post by Conscíous » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:10 pm

accountability wrote: You are doing perfectly right thing, to stand tall against any oppression is real bravery. If more of us would act like you and not succumb to their pressure, these guys (jamat ) will not be able to humilate anyone..
accountability,,
Yes, We should have more like him and I'm glad that we don't have many like you :mrgreen:
Why don't you just crawl back under the stone you have been sleeping lately,,,because it surely does not look like anyone has been missing you :mrgreen:

anajmi
Posts: 13506
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:33 pm

And we shouldn't have any like you. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: accountability has crawled out of the stone making space for you. Maybe you should crawl in there because it surely does not look like anyone will miss you. :mrgreen:

Hussain_KSA
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#12

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:19 am

Boom

You are new to this forum. Please verify about the person, his seniority, his contribution and other things before writing anything. Accountibality is senior member here and he has commented in good faith. The way you have lead the discussion is not good.

Conscíous
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Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#13

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:39 am

Bro Hussain,
I will not argue with you Sir but I was very disturbed reading his comment..

Conscíous
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#14

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:39 am

Bro Hussain,
I will not argue with you Sir but I was very disturbed reading his comment..

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:43 pm

boom,

Which comment of his were you disturbed with? Accty hasn't said anything distubing in his post. The problem isn't with accty's post. The problem is with you. Ever since the admin kicked you out of this board, you have been trying to overcompensate by trying to appear oversmart. You are not. Posting long articles by other smart folks doesn't make you smart. It only makes you look more stupid cause when you open your own mouth, you are only capable of producing gems like ^hehehe :mrgreen: and ^hahaha :mrgreen: and then getting disturbed by harmless posts!!

Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#16

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:55 pm

I've tried, avoiding you, but you can't stop stacking me around huh?? Do you really think I care, what a coward like you, who ran away from his community and turned into a sunni and has spend eleven years deluding yourself into thinking that your a teacher, while your only a pathetic preacher repeating the same old rubbish, just wasting your life (Not lately which is good for you little daughter and wife )..
And get this in your stupid head.. I WAS TEMPORARILY BANNED BECAUSE OF A MISUNDERSTANDING AND I DON'T HAVE TO (which I'll not :mrgreen: ) EXPLAIN to a person who spends more time on this forum trying to justify his delusion and not to forget, maybe the most hated person in this forum ( if you remember when you were praising Yazid or some other Evil master of yours)
I know what is in your heart and we all very well know, what you feel for us (shia).. Your just jealous because you have never offered anything worth reading apart from chasing people away from this forum while I find and sharing new literature, opening people's mind and making change, and even you can't deny the high numbers that clearly show how much my threads are being read 8)

P.s.. It's nice to know, how YOU feel about me :mrgreen: Hahehe

anajmi
Posts: 13506
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Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:26 pm

Let me repeat. You are an idiot because most of the times (well, all the time), you have no clue what is being posted and who is saying what. Consider how you felt "disturbed" by accountability's post. You feel the need to display your "smartness" because you are an idiot.
and even you can't deny the high numbers that clearly show how much my threads are being read
^
He he he :mrgreen: :mrgreen: A post hammering you is appreciated by people more than anything that you post you moron. :mrgreen: Views doesn't indicate people are reading your threads. Unfortunately, you are too dumb to figure that out.

Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#18

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:47 pm

You ignorant coward, that is only your assumption and you can hold on to that thought.. I'm not your mother, that your are telling me how I should post because of your handicap.. My thinking is way above and beyond your little pipe brain... You can't understand me because your to stupid just like that idiot friend (from the other thread telling me how to post) to understand my motives.. so don't ever tell me to do this or that because your opinion is worthless just like the life you are living :mrgreen:

Now go and playing with your daughter and her dolls ..

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:47 pm

My thinking is way above and beyond your little pipe brain
You are right about that. Your thinking is way above there in the cloud and it should stay over there. Do not bring it down here. :wink:
so don't ever tell me to do this or that
^
He He He He :mrgreen: Do this you moron. And now do that you fool. :mrgreen:

I am really feeling "disturbed" by your posted.

^
Ha Ha Ha :mrgreen:

Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#20

Unread post by Conscíous » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:41 pm

Your are just a pathetic sorry !#¤, that I feel quite guilty from time to time for beating on you.. Your such a fanatic because of all the guilty you have within for making all those wrong choices :cry:

Like running away from your community, because you weren't man enough to withstand what we all go through with this cult.. And not only did you runaway, but you abandoned your faith and turned into a sunni, just because of a women which says enough about your character..you worthless pile of garbage...

And the only reason for you to come to this forum, is to get conformity for the remorse you can't get rid off, and you do this by fighting with the rest of us(shia) and twisting the Quran just to redeem your pathetic ego..

Coward, not much to be proud of huh,??

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:47 pm

If I were twisting the Quran, rest assured, everybody on this board would know before you. And why is that? because we all know how smart you are compared to the everyone else on this board eh!! :mrgreen:
Like running away from your community,
And I thank God for that. Can you imaging being a part of a community with dumb assess such as yourself. Eeessh. :mrgreen:

Now go do what you are best at. Copy from other people and paste it over here.

I am really really "disturbed" by your posts.

^
He He He He :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#22

Unread post by Smart » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:14 pm

humanbeing wrote:
The problem is with the semantics and lexicon you adapt. To begin with, your frame of thought and expression is non abde.
Why? You may legitimately ask me.
Why ! educate me.
Dear Human,
Please don;t take my post otherwise. I was being sarcastic to your tormentors, not you. I am aware that you are a sensitive person who is caught in the clutches of the bohra clergy and stuck there. My question why, was rhetorical and is followed by my analysis.

There are thousands of small rebellions happening in almost all bohra families, but just because they are not connected, they are all alone and are being crushed. Each rebel feels that he is weak and alone. What this website and this forum does is provide the numbers, to help you feel a camaraderie with others like you.

What we need to do is connect these thousands of small rebellions and make it into a major movement.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#23

Unread post by accountability » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:08 pm

Yes, that is what should be. Encourage defiance and conncect them all. I would say, if some one stands up in any jamat he should be supported. They can suppress one person but if there are five more with him, they will think.

Conscíous
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Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#24

Unread post by Conscíous » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:10 am

anajmi,
Yes we all know how smart you are to call, the smartest people like ( Porus, Mustansir ) as idiots, says a lot about your intelligence.. Only a idiot like you, would come to a shia forum and proudly announce that he has become a sunni.. We wouldn't care less, if you hung yourself, YOU TRAITOR!! And I feel really sorry for your wife whom has to feed your louse bum ¤!% and your daughter has to bear seeing your presence, day in and night :(
I'll tell you a secret, which no one has dared to tell you on your face... Since you are well aware, no one wants to be associate with a coward and traitor like You, and all this "brotherhood", "friendliness" and those whom "appreciate" you is NOT REAL.. You don't belong here WITH US but you are to messed up to see it yourself... We are nothing like YOU or the people like Yazid whom you praise and also follow his Sunnah..

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:33 am

One doesn't need to be really smart and intelligent to figure out that you are an idiot. You make it easy for anyone :mrgreen:

Now go do kadambosi to your Dai and display your loyalty to him, and remember, you have to grow a beard. :wink:

I am really and truly "disturbed" by your posts.

^
Ha Ha Ha Ha :mrgreen:

Conscíous
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#26

Unread post by Conscíous » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:12 am

I'm smart enough to figure out YOU :mrgreen:

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#27

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:34 am

Dear Smart

Not even for a second I felt offended by your post. Infact I was looking forward to be corrected if I had mistaken. And I agree with your POV about rebellious young people feel isolated from the rigid majority.

I have come across many youngsters and elders who are cribbing and whining about various issues with Jamat and kothar, but they just accept it, because the promise of heaven is too tempting to be risked. However when some discussion does reach matured levels, but there is no action.

There is a famous saying : “Vinaash Kaaal ----- Vipreet Buddhi”
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Dear Accountability

Thanks for the appreciation ! but my rebellious nature is not enough. However my interaction with Local Jamaat is limited so I don’t experience too much injustice at personal level. But whenever I land in confronting situation with die hard bohra mumins who are fanatic about appearance I defend my choices. However with passing time, my interactions with jamaat will increase with regards to Wajebaat, Nikaah and other secular matters. Lets see, those interactions will be my test of character.

I don’t go to Sabaks sessions. Although I wanted to attend and listen to what is being preached. Sometime we should listen to everything so that we can identify rights and wrong as per our understanding. But Its tough task to attend this sabaks, reasons are well known on this forum.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: My Small Rebellions !!

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:01 am

I'm smart enough to figure out YOU
If you need to be smart to figure me out, then either I must really smart, or you must be really dumb.

^
he he he he :mrgreen: