Udaipur - Bohra Reform movement

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Doctor
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:16 am

Udaipur - Bohra Reform movement

#1

Unread post by Doctor » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:27 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RljoFPcfH1s

Refer to link above.

Thanks



progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

#2

Unread post by progticide » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:20 am

The slideshow is nothing but a shameful exhibition of immorality and loss of religious identity and sensibility.

Let me prove it:
1. The slide (@ 3:34) showing a shameful congregation of ladies in what seems to be a proggy mosque (apparently the arch behind the speaker- woman is Qibla). The ladies can be seen without Rida/Hijab wearing Punjabi suits in what you call mosque. In some cases the ladies dont even bother to cover their heads properly (can be seen clearly with dupattas sliding down). What one wears outside the mosque is not debated here, the question is what the youth ladies are wearing inside their mosque.

2. The slide (@5:25 "Yes we can bring the change") :- And Yippee, what a change you progs have brought. The congregation again looks like being conducted inside a mosque. But we see people sitting on chairs inside a mosque. This is certainly a revolution or reform by any measure. you have transformed the mosque into a Church-like place. And again, you can see women inside the mosque without headscarves or Rida.

3. In all the slides showing morchas/processions, I am sure ordinary Indians on the roads would be wondering who these people are. Nothing identifiable about youth personnel participating in these processions. Is this really a prog morcha or you guys posted some old political party procession photo. There's lots to pic and choose from in our country.

4. The slide (@3:24). Has the prog club started offering Langar? Dont know if someone put this slide by mistake or what. If this is some youth organised Picnic where they are offering food and snacks than what is its relevance in this slideshow.

To sum it all, progs need some good media editor before posting such ridiculous contents online.

And now, you progs can start your regular abuse with nonsensible posts. Get .Set. Go.



ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

#3

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:22 am

The slides are an outstanding example Of grass root movement, I am really motivated to see normal public standing up.

So much better to see normal men and women in their natural form revolting, rather than Barbie doll zada or zadi, pretending to be super human and centre of all .

Progicide, your grand parents and ancestors looked and dressed like it, there is no immorality , that is how 1.2 billion Indians look like and most middle eastern Muslims dress casually and in local attire.

Get the stupid mentality out that every believer has to be in says Kurta and zadi fashion rida.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#4

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:45 pm

progticide wrote:This is certainly a revolution or reform by any measure. you have transformed the mosque into a Church-like place.
Better then transforming the masjids into ampitheatres with giant screens.



Doctor
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:16 am

#5

Unread post by Doctor » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:54 pm

progticide wrote:The slideshow is nothing but a shameful exhibition of immorality and loss of religious identity and sensibility.
Bhai Progticide Ji, for the sake of justice I hope you will measure act & character of Kothar with your above yardstick - to judge Kothar refer to links below:

(1) Quran An-Nur: 30&31 - Kothar ke moz, masti & pleasures: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5633 - refer especially to section/post with title: Photo of Mazoon Najmuddin shaking hand with British ladies

(2) Characterless Kothar: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5053
progticide wrote: Let me prove it:
1. The slide (@ 3:34) showing a shameful congregation of ladies in what seems to be a proggy mosque (apparently the arch behind the speaker- woman is Qibla). The ladies can be seen without Rida/Hijab wearing Punjabi suits in what you call mosque. In some cases the ladies dont even bother to cover their heads properly (can be seen clearly with dupattas sliding down). What one wears outside the mosque is not debated here, the question is what the youth ladies are wearing inside their mosque.
Most important point to note: It is women only congregation.

Further to above, per DB faith, men should be covered from knee till navel and women should cover whole body. Shabab women show their face, so does Youth women, Shabab women cover 66%-100% of their head with Rida, likewise Youth women cover their head with "dupatta' or "audhni". Different places of world have different clothing culture, one example) Bohras in Yemen wear different outfits than their counterparts in other countries. Whether one wear rida or burka or punjabi suits or lehnga audhni or overcoats - the idea is to completely clad ones body. Hence, not wearing fancy rida doesn't make Bohra Youth women clothless, naked and shameful as you incorrectly accuse. However, the two links above exhibits nakedness and shamefulness of male and female members of your master family (Kothar).
progticide wrote: 2. The slide (@5:25 "Yes we can bring the change") :- And Yippee, what a change you progs have brought. The congregation again looks like being conducted inside a mosque. But we see people sitting on chairs inside a mosque. This is certainly a revolution or reform by any measure. you have transformed the mosque into a Church-like place. And again, you can see women inside the mosque without headscarves or Rida.
You are speaking lies. That place is "Sehen", common hall, and not the mosque.

Following will interest you: Kothar acted against command of Mola Ali (a): http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5980
progticide wrote: 3. In all the slides showing morchas/processions, I am sure ordinary Indians on the roads would be wondering who these people are. Nothing identifiable about youth personnel participating in these processions. Is this really a prog morcha or you guys posted some old political party procession photo. There's lots to pic and choose from in our country.
Bhai Progticide Ji, all Bohra Youth wala's earlier look alike to Bohra Shabab wala, but zulm and tyranny of Kothar have made them look per your description above.
progticide wrote: To sum it all, progs need some good media editor before posting such ridiculous contents online.
To sum it all, media editor is Kothar's way not the way of followers of rightful Fatimi Dawat. Remember the story of "Ranga Siyaar" - the color (media editor) cannot hide the shameful and pro-nakedness character of Kothar.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#6

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:48 pm

doctor,

you keep forgetting that Dawoodi Abde Bohra Regressives are the only true muslims in this world. only their uniform, behaviour, thoughts and actions represent pristine islam. all the other 'muslims' are destined for hell. only DABR's have jannat guranteed.



Doctor
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:16 am

#7

Unread post by Doctor » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:56 pm

Below especially is for our revered, dear and lovely brother bhai, Janab Progticide Ji sahab,

The great Progticide, you are angel in form of human, below is for you o devta saman insaan Shri Progticide
Doctor wrote:
progticide wrote:The slideshow is nothing but a shameful exhibition of immorality and loss of religious identity and sensibility.
Bhai Progticide Ji, for the sake of justice I hope you will measure act & character of Kothar with your above yardstick - to judge Kothar refer to links below:

(1) Quran An-Nur: 30&31 - Kothar ke moz, masti & pleasures: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5633 - refer especially to section/post with title: Photo of Mazoon Najmuddin shaking hand with British ladies

(2) Characterless Kothar: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5053
progticide wrote: Let me prove it:
1. The slide (@ 3:34) showing a shameful congregation of ladies in what seems to be a proggy mosque (apparently the arch behind the speaker- woman is Qibla). The ladies can be seen without Rida/Hijab wearing Punjabi suits in what you call mosque. In some cases the ladies dont even bother to cover their heads properly (can be seen clearly with dupattas sliding down). What one wears outside the mosque is not debated here, the question is what the youth ladies are wearing inside their mosque.
Most important point to note: It is women only congregation.

Further to above, per DB faith, men should be covered from knee till navel and women should cover whole body. Shabab women show their face, so does Youth women, Shabab women cover 66%-100% of their head with Rida, likewise Youth women cover their head with "dupatta' or "audhni". Different places of world have different clothing culture, one example) Bohras in Yemen wear different outfits than their counterparts in other countries. Whether one wear rida or burka or punjabi suits or lehnga audhni or overcoats - the idea is to completely clad ones body. Hence, not wearing fancy rida doesn't make Bohra Youth women clothless, naked and shameful as you incorrectly accuse. However, the two links above exhibits nakedness and shamefulness of male and female members of your master family (Kothar).
progticide wrote: 2. The slide (@5:25 "Yes we can bring the change") :- And Yippee, what a change you progs have brought. The congregation again looks like being conducted inside a mosque. But we see people sitting on chairs inside a mosque. This is certainly a revolution or reform by any measure. you have transformed the mosque into a Church-like place. And again, you can see women inside the mosque without headscarves or Rida.
You are speaking lies. That place is "Sehen", common hall, and not the mosque.

Following will interest you: Kothar acted against command of Mola Ali (a): http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5980
progticide wrote: 3. In all the slides showing morchas/processions, I am sure ordinary Indians on the roads would be wondering who these people are. Nothing identifiable about youth personnel participating in these processions. Is this really a prog morcha or you guys posted some old political party procession photo. There's lots to pic and choose from in our country.
Bhai Progticide Ji, all Bohra Youth wala's earlier look alike to Bohra Shabab wala, but zulm and tyranny of Kothar have made them look per your description above.
progticide wrote: To sum it all, progs need some good media editor before posting such ridiculous contents online.
To sum it all, media editor is Kothar's way not the way of followers of rightful Fatimi Dawat. Remember the story of "Ranga Siyaar" - the color (media editor) cannot hide the shameful and pro-nakedness character of Kothar.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#8

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 am

Bhai Progticide Ji, all Bohra Youth wala's earlier look alike to Bohra Shabab wala, but zulm and tyranny of Kothar have made them look per your description above.
Wearing Saya Kurta Topi is a standard attire, available everywhere ! There is no copyright restriction on wearing this Libaas. There are debates on enforcement of such attire, which is understandable. But from a neutral, unbiased, free-will point of view. Wearing white saya kurta to socio-religious gathering is not a bad idea. Does any one stop any person in this world from wearing white saya kurta topi ?

Progressive associated bohra members have taken a dislike towards this attire in perception as an order from Kothar. And due to unfortunate stand off, progressives have taken prejudiced approach towards any guidelines expressed from Kothar.

I respect the idea of freedom of choice, but if certain suggestion or guideline is beneficial in some nature, then I see no harm or oppression. Many bohra mumins have expressed dislike towards wearing White (SKT), fine freedom of choice shall be allowed, if one does not wish to wear, they wont. That is where Kothar goes wrong (But as they perceive it, they want to bring uniformity in dressing on common gatherings)

Do All progressives members dislike wearing white SKT out of choice or fashion or is it solely prejudice towards kothar guidelines ?? In order to create or stand out as rebellious group who wont listen to every word, right or wrong coming from opponent ?? Please provide your POVs.

Progressives / reformist bohra emphasis on being same bohra as everyone else, but they mainly object with issue on accountability and religious perversion. With current development in orthodox bohra community, where restriction to entry and exit is controlled and supervised by kothar management, how does pregressive or reformist desire to bring change in the bohra functioning at administrative and religious levels. Progressives are skeptical and apprehensive to embrace or tolerate any guidelines from orthodox leadership sensing a trick or trap. Although reformist torchbearers are smart, intelligent free willed thinking individuals. They can identify a perceived threat, trick or trap. But intellect may be shadowed by perceptive judgement and grudge from the past !

Reformist section of bohra community is struggling to bring change in the system, Surely; convincing, streamlining, disciplining Priestly class is a far fetched dream as they are cleverly educated. Kothar management is able to wield its policies and agendas by popular support, by winning over hearts of million bohra mumins. Progressive numbers are handlful and decreasing. Being smart intellectual thinkers. They shall strategise their reach more amongst commoner bohra mumins. Due to cultural isolation, progressive group and their rightful demands are fading against powerful advertisements from kothar.

There are many orthodox members who share same POVs as reformists, but are confused or apprehensive from rising as they don’t associate or connect with progressive cultural indentity. Whether we accept this situation or not, but it’s a practical reality. Years and years of social conditioning has made orthodoxed believers stick to the idea of close cultural identity. Unfortunately in today polarized environment, one needs cultural security and sense of belonging in the social circles. Religion has been a popular means to cement people into communities and groups.

If we desire or wish to Unite bohra communities, then there has to be mutual dialogue of understanding and acceptance. It’s about give and take. This applies to both orthodox and progressive thinkers.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#9

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:36 pm

humanbeing wrote:
If we desire or wish to Unite bohra communities, then there has to be mutual dialogue of understanding and acceptance. It’s about give and take.
hb,

your above statement sounds very good in intent and profound in understanding, but extremely naive in its comprehension of the prevailing ground realities.

do you think that the progressives over the last 45 odd years have not tried to have a reasonable dialogue? but they have been rebuffed everytime and insulted with harsh conditions which include extending an apology which they must first tender unconditionally. then again, they must renounce all their past associations with the reformists and any family, friends and relatives on the side of the 'dushmans'. they are further subjected to a strict misaq and continously scrutinised for any surreptitious links.

whereas the kothar says one thing, it does another. all they want is that the reformists abjectly surrender and have no pre-conditions. they hope by guile and by outright deception to fool the reformists into giving up their rights. there is no negotiation with the wily crooks of saifee mahal, there is no mature dialogue, no reasonable meeting of minds. their approach is like bush, "either you are with us, or against us". my way or the highway..

i do not wish to discourage your efforts or throw cold water on your otherwise good intentions, but you may need to obtain much, much more information on the history of the reform movement among bohras and educate yrself in detail about the travails, trials and tribulations suffered by its leaders, and stalwarts who have tried every means to hold a dialogue with the kothar.



profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

#10

Unread post by profastian » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:57 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
humanbeing wrote:
If we desire or wish to Unite bohra communities, then there has to be mutual dialogue of understanding and acceptance. It’s about give and take.
hb,

your above statement sounds very good in intent and profound in understanding, but extremely naive in its comprehension of the prevailing ground realities.

do you think that the progressives over the last 45 odd years have not tried to have a reasonable dialogue? but they have been rebuffed everytime and insulted with harsh conditions which include extending an apology which they must first tender unconditionally. then again, they must renounce all their past associations with the reformists and any family, friends and relatives on the side of the 'dushmans'. they are further subjected to a strict misaq and continously scrutinised for any surreptitious links.

whereas the kothar says one thing, it does another. all they want is that the reformists abjectly surrender and have no pre-conditions. they hope by guile and by outright deception to fool the reformists into giving up their rights. there is no negotiation with the wily crooks of saifee mahal, there is no mature dialogue, no reasonable meeting of minds. their approach is like bush, "either you are with us, or against us". my way or the highway..

i do not wish to discourage your efforts or throw cold water on your otherwise good intentions, but you may need to obtain much, much more information on the history of the reform movement among bohras and educate yrself in detail about the travails, trials and tribulations suffered by its leaders, and stalwarts who have tried every means to hold a dialogue with the kothar.
Why the heck do you want to hold dialogue. You think everything is wrong within the community, so why the heck are you hell bent on rejoining it?



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#11

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:40 am

Hi AZ
My concern goes towards both sides. I say past shall be forgiven in good faith least if it cannot be forgotten. I have never faced any excommunication atrocity but have witnessed cold social ridicule of others in the society. I have heartfelt sympathies for those who have suffered such social boycott.

My messages, plea equally goes to orthodox populace also. To accept and come to respectful dialogue of understanding and reconciliation without insulting, offending any of the parties.

I understand what I expressed is a wishful thinking, as we know vested interest would never want to reconcile, those may be from both the sides. But if reformist / progressive can influence and win hearts of orthodox majority commoners then there is positive change. This forum is one of the representative avenue of progressive’s efforts to remain organized.

Orthodox majority is intoxicated by the current system, highly addicted to this bubble of euphoria. Thus confronting majority with ridiculing the euphoria creator is not going to carve a path to reconciliation. A sudden jolt to their belief will only scare them away in disgust and denial.

We know for the fact that, kothar leadership is politically and economically too powerful to fight and ethically too corrupt to reform. Their actual power is not money but influence over the masses.

Progressive movement started with a bang, a charge chunk of believers organized themselves. Then what happened over 45 years ? numbers are falling and reducing. Progressive families agree or empathize with reformist agendas but outwardly they require a system to live in the society. Was it lack of organized leadership ? or lack of religious bonding ?

AZ ! few progressive or reformist minded members accuse orthodox bohra of slavery in general ! branding everyone as back bending slaves. But amongst orthodox bohra also there are level headed sane thinking logical bohras who don’t give into any extortion or persuasion by these guys. Level of rebellion vary. Not everyone is doling out lacs and crores. But at the same time there are some intoxicated idiots who we see in the photos of ziyafats are completely brain-washed idiots who are giving away money in good faith that its used for community development channeled through Kothari leadership.

When I mentioned give and take, in a sense, if reformist can let loose their guard and orthodox become more accommodating and come to common dialogue. Instead of preaching hatred for each other. Popularize intent of reconciliation. Put forward your demands as requests to massage their ego but in the process join the stream.

I would never advise anyone to let go their dignity, self respect and suffer humiliation in the process of reconciliation. But a polite approach will encourage polite response. If then too Kothari amils, sheikhs or mullas throw fits around. Let the world see their behavior.

When progressive jamats are organized, then they too must work towards popularizing concept of accountability. Take one issue at a time. Taking all the issues together messes up the reform process. Also clever Kothari politicians twist the issues into one another. So create a consensus amongst one and sundry bohra populace over one issue which would shake the very existence of corrupt machinery in the system. In my opinion “Financial Accountability” is one of the most major concern to reform.



Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

#12

Unread post by Maqbool » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:50 am

humanbeing wrote:Progressive associated bohra members have taken a dislike towards this attire in perception as an order from Kothar. And due to unfortunate stand off, progressives have taken prejudiced approach towards any guidelines expressed from Kothar.
Thou I am not a progressive but your statement is not true. From 1st to 51 dai there was no dress code. Even 3/4th of the life of present sayedna there was no dress code. But many bohras use to wear feta and servani and it was not a bad dress. To establish identity of the community no dress code is necessary. When there was no dress code, the identity of our community was very much high. Our community was known as high and esteemed in the Indian society. But now because of corrupt and money minded leadership of our community, our identity of honesty and fair trader is vanished. So please do not advocate the mandatory dress code. If it is good or bad but forcefully implemented is wrong,wrong and wrong.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

#13

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:23 am

Hi Maqbool

I don’t understand, why a new idea has to be compared with history and discarded. Everyone of us is in evolving phase. There are changes happening good or bad. I don’t advocate force on people’s choices. Im too objecting policies of kothar on forced attire, beard over all appearance.

At the same time, if I give a thought to the idea of uniformity, I personally have no objection with white SKT but I have objection with keeping thick endless beard. Also wearing white SKT is only limited to socio-religious gatherings only, I agree no rule in Islam says that one has to wear such attire to namaaz or religious event, Also there is no rule which says one cant wear uniformed SKT. For once let down the guard and think over it from another perspective.

Bohra living in America or westernized society dislike wearing it out of cultural influence. Is this right or wrong. I m no one to declare it.

I m suggesting freedom; let the leader present his thoughts on appearance, those who wish to adapt, they will, those who don’t wanna they wont. At the same time, people too should see without any prejudice, if there is benefit wear it, if not….then don’t !!

If you are objecting idea of white SKT and it shall be discarded, then your POV is same as that of Kothar which says white SKT is mandatory. So I see no difference. Both ideologies are oppressive !

Bro Maqbool, Bohra community is respected and recognized now also ! Irrespective of the attire and appearance. I have come across non bohra who hold bohra traders, salesmen, and service providers to be reliable and efficient. Apart from other positive qualities which bohra community in general radiates such as non violence and outwardly friendly.
----------------------------------------
One of my non bohra female friend once shared that, she was passing through a lane during muharram days. She came across a procession of shia mourners who were doing violent maatam, which seemed scary and intimidating with men and children bleeding profusely. She zoomed off taking a detour thinking there was some muslim riot, As she took a detour she came across another lane where bohra mumins (men and women) dressed in white SKT and colorful ridas were walking towards masjid to attend muharram waaz, moment she reached amongst bohra crowds she felt relaxed and secured and was amused to see peace and calm people walking towards the masjid.

Shia mourners wore black dresses (kurtas, jeans, t shirts and shirts) beating themselves violently resulting in blood and gory repulsive scene, which scared the hell out of my friend, forming a deep negative impression of violence oriented sect. And few minutes later saw bohras in white SKT and color ful rida presenting a calm and relaxed picture forming a positive impression of peace and harmony.

Another example :

When general muslim populace gather in crowds to celebrate any muslim festivals they gather one and sundry in their own whimsical sidey dresses, tight jeans, bright colored shirts, there is no congruence in gathering to celebrate common festival.



profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

#14

Unread post by profastian » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:12 am

humanbeing wrote:Hi Maqbool

I don’t understand, why a new idea has to be compared with history and discarded. Everyone of us is in evolving phase. There are changes happening good or bad. I don’t advocate force on people’s choices. Im too objecting policies of kothar on forced attire, beard over all appearance.

At the same time, if I give a thought to the idea of uniformity, I personally have no objection with white SKT but I have objection with keeping thick endless beard. Also wearing white SKT is only limited to socio-religious gatherings only, I agree no rule in Islam says that one has to wear such attire to namaaz or religious event, Also there is no rule which says one cant wear uniformed SKT. For once let down the guard and think over it from another perspective.

Bohra living in America or westernized society dislike wearing it out of cultural influence. Is this right or wrong. I m no one to declare it.

I m suggesting freedom; let the leader present his thoughts on appearance, those who wish to adapt, they will, those who don’t wanna they wont. At the same time, people too should see without any prejudice, if there is benefit wear it, if not….then don’t !!

If you are objecting idea of white SKT and it shall be discarded, then your POV is same as that of Kothar which says white SKT is mandatory. So I see no difference. Both ideologies are oppressive !

Bro Maqbool, Bohra community is respected and recognized now also ! Irrespective of the attire and appearance. I have come across non bohra who hold bohra traders, salesmen, and service providers to be reliable and efficient. Apart from other positive qualities which bohra community in general radiates such as non violence and outwardly friendly.
----------------------------------------
One of my non bohra female friend once shared that, she was passing through a lane during muharram days. She came across a procession of shia mourners who were doing violent maatam, which seemed scary and intimidating with men and children bleeding profusely. She zoomed off taking a detour thinking there was some muslim riot, As she took a detour she came across another lane where bohra mumins (men and women) dressed in white SKT and colorful ridas were walking towards masjid to attend muharram waaz, moment she reached amongst bohra crowds she felt relaxed and secured and was amused to see peace and calm people walking towards the masjid.

Shia mourners wore black dresses (kurtas, jeans, t shirts and shirts) beating themselves violently resulting in blood and gory repulsive scene, which scared the hell out of my friend, forming a deep negative impression of violence oriented sect. And few minutes later saw bohras in white SKT and color ful rida presenting a calm and relaxed picture forming a positive impression of peace and harmony.

Another example :

When general muslim populace gather in crowds to celebrate any muslim festivals they gather one and sundry in their own whimsical sidey dresses, tight jeans, bright colored shirts, there is no congruence in gathering to celebrate common festival.
If people are not forced now, will they ever wear it? Never. 2 or 3 generations from now if you will ask any bohra to leave SKT, he will never do it. There will be no need for force.

Hindus were shown miracles, a long time ago,so they came to the fold of Islam. Without miracles(or fear) would they ever have embraced Islam. Never. Several generations down the line, their children will never leave Islam, even if you force them to.

Can you just ask a small child to stay away from something that is bad from them. No, you have to force them to stay away at first and but when they grow up no force is required. Who decides what is good for them? Their parents. (Similarly Syedna is like our parent and he decides what is good for us.) That is the point of Shia Ismaili Islam. The Imam is not just a leader, rathe he is r like a parent. There are only one parents, but there can be multiple leaders. You can choose your leaders but not your parents. If you consider the Syedna as just a leader, then you have got bohraism completely wrong.

The point being there is some sort of coercion required in the beginning. What about Islam. Does Allah not say that do something or you would go to hell. Is this not force or coercion? But you do not call it coercion, you call it love. Same thing different names. Similarly you consider SKT as coercion, Sharia as coercion, we call it love.




Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#15

Unread post by Adam » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:47 am

Thanks for the slide show. Enhanced my knowledge.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#16

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:27 pm

profastian wrote:
, so why the heck are you hell bent on rejoining it?
profas,

before you suffer an aneurysm, let me remind you that i dont have to REJOIN. i am already in, a registered jamaat member and carrying on my sabotage from inside..!

now that you know, have a peaceful sleep.



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#17

Unread post by Adam » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:56 am

Al Zulfiqar = Coward for
1. Hiding is own beliefs
2. Doesn't have the courage to disclose his real beliefs. He's just too ashamed to do so.

Shouldn't you be proud of your great beliefs?



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

#18

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:48 pm

adam,

i knew that a slimy politician like you would respond in exactly this fashion. :D

before you call others cowards, why dont you admit that you are a kafir hiding behind white clothes and using the name of islam? you lead a double life, playing a devout muslim for the outside world and then behind the closed doors of the markaz/masjid singing sajda tujhe wajib hai for dai and doing them to syedna too, using maatam supposed to mourn the shaheeds of kerbala to celebrate the life of your dai and begging allah to prolong his painful existence ta qayamat?

defending criminals and merciless rascals who will not allow even dead bodies of their own followers to be buried until their pound of flesh is taken? uttering laanats and abuses against dawat na dushmano, harassing them, persecuting them and even getting them 'eliminated' and then projecting an image of 'angel of peace' bullshit?

atleast i stand up for myself and my rights, while remaining inside i provoke others not to co-operate, to speak up, i pay but do not participate and i do not toe their stupid farmaans. no one has had the guts to publicly challenge me and never has anyone raised any finger at me for being a liar, charlatan or fraud like you, who talks from both sides of his mouth and whose sole purpose in life is to mislead devout muslims and gullible bohras into shirk and kufr with your self-serving crap.

you call yrself a shia of ali and then contradict everything he stood for? who is the coward now??



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

#19

Unread post by Adam » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:52 am

you call yrself a shia of ali and then contradict everything he stood for? who is the coward now??
Al Zulfiqar

Posts: 2777
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am


Yes I am a Shia of Ali AS. And Dawoodi Bohra faith doesn't contradict his teaching.

So does that mean you follow Shia Islam? What do you follow? Confusion confusion, coward.



Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

#20

Unread post by Smart » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:11 pm

@AZ,
You should not get into discussion with Adam. Like his malik, who is also the "ghaib - na - malik", he gets into swearing and calling you names, the moment he cannot logically refute you. He pretends to be a big scholar and all that, but runs away when challenged, under the pretext that his particular knowledge is hidden and cannot be given away without Raza.

Pretty slippery isn't it? Iblees could learn quite a lot from this adam.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#21

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:17 pm

Adam wrote:Yes I am a Shia of Ali AS. And Dawoodi Bohra faith doesn't contradict his teaching.
Was Mola Ali (a.s.) himself a 'Shia' ? Were Imam Hussain (a.s.), Imam Hasan (a.s.) and their progenies 'Shias' ? Did Imam Hussain (a.s.) gave his life for 'Shiasm' or Islam ?

Dawoodi Bohra faith adds Mola Ali's name in their kalema and azaan, did Mola Ali (a.s.) himself did this during his reign as Khalifa or did Imam Hussain (a.s.) and his progeny recited the kalema and azaan incorporating Mola Ali's name in it ? If so please provide some authentic proof.



Reporter
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:34 am

#22

Unread post by Reporter » Tue May 08, 2018 4:03 pm

Udaipur reformists celebrate 50 years of the reform movement.


youtu.be/JGrn8VOOi1g



momeenbhai
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

#23

Unread post by momeenbhai » Wed May 16, 2018 9:44 am

I got a chance to visit udaipur recently and I was with my sunni friend for this trip also I stayed for 1 day with his family who are sunni as well, and according to my impression these reformists guys dont have good reputation amoung the other muslims, other muslims dont see them serious about their allegations, also I noticed dawoodi bohras are really rich in udaipur. especially area near hathipoll.



Udaipuri
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

#24

Unread post by Udaipuri » Wed May 16, 2018 1:13 pm

momeenbhai wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:44 am
I got a chance to visit udaipur recently and I was with my sunni friend for this trip also I stayed for 1 day with his family who are sunni as well, and according to my impression these reformists guys dont have good reputation amoung the other muslims, other muslims dont see them serious about their allegations, also I noticed dawoodi bohras are really rich in udaipur. especially area near hathipoll.
Can you please be more specific -- what do you mean by "don't have good reputation"? Does it then mean that orthodox Bohras -- who worship the Dai and commit shirk -- enjoy good reputation among other Muslims? If so, then it says a lot about your Sunni friend and other Muslims.

Yes, Bohras in Udaipur are generally well-off.



momeenbhai
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

#25

Unread post by momeenbhai » Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 am

Reformist don't act Muslim....many involve in alcohol gambling, also members are not in good picture. This was the impression.



Udaipuri
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

#26

Unread post by Udaipuri » Thu May 17, 2018 9:50 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 am
Reformist don't act Muslim....many involve in alcohol gambling, also members are not in good picture. This was the impression.
Alcohol, gambling!! Hmm!!! What percentage of reformists? You must have seen many -- or told about them -- to form such an impression. Anyway, here is a challenge: For every reformist who drinks and gambles you find I will find you two orthodox Bohra and Sunni who drinks and gambles. What do you say? Either take the challenge or take back your words.



momeenbhai
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

#27

Unread post by momeenbhai » Fri May 18, 2018 2:50 am

Udaipuri wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:50 am
momeenbhai wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 am
Reformist don't act Muslim....many involve in alcohol gambling, also members are not in good picture. This was the impression.
Alcohol, gambling!! Hmm!!! What percentage of reformists? You must have seen many -- or told about them -- to form such an impression. Anyway, here is a challenge: For every reformist who drinks and gambles you find I will find you two orthodox Bohra and Sunni who drinks and gambles. What do you say? Either take the challenge or take back your words.
I dont care about reformists or bohras but I must say reformists have lost their identity.... Thank you.



Udaipuri
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

#28

Unread post by Udaipuri » Fri May 18, 2018 9:15 am

momeenbhai wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:50 am
I dont care about reformists or bohras but I must say reformists have lost their identity.... Thank you.
You know i feel like calling you names, but for this public forum"stupid" would suffice. First you bad mouth reformists based on some random person's impression, and when challenged you move goal posts. So now reformist have lost their identity, han? What identity are you talking about? Saya kurta topi rida -- is this the identity you have in mind? For your information, this identity was invented recently, after the reformists in Udaipur challenged the Kothar and showed them up as a bunch of evil and corrupt and mean mullahs. The new Bohra identity is to control the sheep and keep them in line. if you think this identity serves some great Islamic purpose than you are a greater fool than I thought.

The reformists have neither lost their faith nor their dignity. We are not like abdes who have lost everything in their idol worship, and only thing they have is the "identity" that imprisons their body and mind. But a shallow person like you would not know the difference.



momeenbhai
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:31 am

#29

Unread post by momeenbhai » Fri May 18, 2018 9:58 am

your frustration proves my point.

btw there is no idol worship, yes current dai is more into money but there is no idol worship in bohras.

Bohras are still very much on kale maa shadat : Laa ilaha illallah Muhammed rasulullah Aliun wali ullah.



gulam_parinda
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:46 am

#30

Unread post by gulam_parinda » Fri May 18, 2018 2:29 pm

When you was in udaipur have you been for ziyarat at sayedi lukmaan ji saheb...If not for your kind information there's a life size photo SMB and every abde kiss the shoe part of this photo after performing ziyarat...What would you say it ...Idol worshipping or not...
momeenbhai wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:58 am
your frustration proves my point.

btw there is no idol worship, yes current dai is more into money but there is no idol worship in bohras.

Bohras are still very much on kale maa shadat : Laa ilaha illallah Muhammed rasulullah Aliun wali ullah.