PROGGIES please stand up!

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#31

Unread post by Adam » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:31 pm

I am a Dawoodi Bohra. I was born in a Dawoodi Bohra household. For generations my family is a Dawoodi Bohra. My beliefs are the same as those of my ancestors. Happy?

Since you claim to be a DB, how come we don't see you defending Dawoodi Bohra customs and sources (female Circumcision), but rather stay quiet and attack Syedna. Isn't that a two faced coward?

Udaipuri
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#32

Unread post by Udaipuri » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:31 pm

Adam wrote:
I am a Dawoodi Bohra. I was born in a Dawoodi Bohra household. For generations my family is a Dawoodi Bohra. My beliefs are the same as those of my ancestors. Happy?

Since you claim to be a DB, how come we don't see you defending Dawoodi Bohra customs and sources (female Circumcision), but rather stay quiet and attack Syedna. Isn't that a two faced coward?
Adam,
I asked you a question, you said like a stuck record what are my beliefs, and I told you my beliefs. Now instead of answering my question you're going off track and scolding me for not defending Dawoodi Bohra customs and sources. Are you sure I'm a two-faced coward here? As for Dawoodi Bohra sources and customs, let me confess that I'm an ordinary bohra, I don't know much about sources and all those books you talk about. 99% bohras are like me, I bet they have never heard about Daim ul Islam. An ordinary bohra like me cannot defend about things I do not have much knowledge about. Even our Dai who sparked a riot by publicly cursing the three khalifas had to apologize on national TV. If the Dai could not defend his position, beliefs and custom what do you expect from an ordinary bohra like me. You tell me now who is a two-faced coward?
So, again, my beliefs have not changed. I believe in everything that a Dawoodi Bohra is supposed to believe in, okay? We had the same beliefs when our Dais of old before Sayedna Taher Saifuddin lived a simple life, cared for the community and never made any material demands on the community. They never harassed bohras with baraat, they never used misaaq as a tool to scare people, they never used raza to keep them in check. They never lived in palaces and called themselves Sultans and their familiy "royal family". They never allowed bohras to do sajda to them. Then our Dawoodi Bohras beliefs and sources were the same as they are now.
But how come everything is changed now? Please explain with the help of your knowledge and sources whey the present Dai is doing things that the olden Dais never did. You're quick to defend female circumscion, but do not want defend our Dai when he is accused of being un-Islamic and what not. Please do not be a two-faced coward. And also, please also answer my original question: what sources and beliefs allow our Dai to accept human worship from ordinary bohras like me. What beliefs and sources have turned ordinary bohras like me into worshippers of Dai and his royal family. I'm hoping this time round you won't behave like a two-faced coward.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#33

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:00 pm

by Udaipuri on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:31 pm
Even our Dai who sparked a riot by publicly cursing the three khalifas had to apologize on national TV. If the Dai could not defend his position, beliefs and custom what do you expect from an ordinary bohra like me. You tell me now who is a two-faced coward?
This is true.
Mullaji Adam
Is cursing 3 part of Burhani-Taheri Bohra religion?
Is Curaing 3 required as per Daim ul Islam?
BTW cursing is not requirement to be a Muslim, but seems required to be Shia.

Udaipuri
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#34

Unread post by Udaipuri » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:44 pm

Muslim First,
Please do not divert the topic. "Cursing" is not the issue here. It has be discussed to death before. Please do not revive it. Don't give Adam an excuse, not that he needs one, to start chasing his tail.
thanks.

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#35

Unread post by Adam » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:39 pm

@Udaipuri (And all other TRUE Proggies)
You seem pretty confused:
As for Dawoodi Bohra sources and customs, let me confess that I'm an ordinary bohra, I don't know much about sources and all those books you talk about. 99% bohras are like me, I bet they have never heard about Daim ul Islam. An ordinary bohra like me cannot defend about things I do not have much knowledge about.

First of all, don't remain ignorant. Please go to your nearest Progressive AMIL or leader (Ahmed Ali is dead, so to his number two guy) and learn about Dawoodi Bohra beliefs, understand it, and then comment. You can't expect to know everything in a day. So why don't you start like that.

I'll just highlight a few issues you raised, and the problems you have with that.
1. simple life - The Nabi s including Sulaiman and Yusuf Nabi lived like Kings. So did the Fatimid Imams. So did the Fatimid Duaats. You claim to be a DB, but if you don't agree with their living styles, you'll have to clarify your stance on that.
2. baraat - Again, please go to your nearest Proggy learned man and read up Fatimid texts like Daim ul Islam, Uyoon al Akbar and Majalis al Musayaraat for instances of those who didn't follow the Imam.
3. misaaq - Yes again, please read up on the sources stated above, including Taweel books to understand the importance of Raza (in accordance to DB faith, obviously)
4. raza - Yes again, please read up on the sources stated above, including Taweel books to understand the importance of Misaaq (in accordance to DB faith, obviously) - It's called اذن in Arabic.
5. royal family - Yes again, please read up on the sources stated above - Imams family was called "الامير" etc
6. sajda Yes again, please read up on the sources stated above, including Taweel books and Fatimid Literature from the verses of Zuhoor and Satr to understand the importance and practice of Sajda (in accordance to DB faith, obviously)

Then our Dawoodi Bohras beliefs and sources were the same as they are now. But how come everything is changed now?

Exactly, if you read my above post, and learn the TRUE beliefs from these books, you'll realize nothing has changed.

You're quick to defend female circumscion,

Yes, I was quick to defend it, not because it's "female circumcision", BUT
1. Because it is the farmaan of the Prophet and Imam Ali AS in accordance to DB beliefs that is being denied.
2. This farmaan is directed to the Dawoodi Bohras in accordance to their belief, so, I was defending it because I AM a Dawoodi Bohra. And you sir, claim to be one, but aren't defending its practices, rather joining hands with those who have nothing to do with Dawoodi Bohra beliefs! They don't even care about YOUR texts and beliefs.
I'm looking at the bigger picture.

My opinions to you are:
You claim to be a DB, but your ignorance in what you claim to be isn't justified.
Since you are a Proggy, I suggest you go back to your leaders and do your home work on DB beliefs.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#36

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:45 pm

I think it has now being clearly established that all the ills that exist within the Dawoodi Bohra community can be traced back directly to their Fatimid Imam and their books. It is now time for those who want to be true Muslims and follow the straight path, as mentioned in the Quran, to reject the Fatimid books, the Fatimid Imams and come back to the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). We have seen that the disputed DB practices cannot be traced back to the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw).

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#37

Unread post by Adam » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:10 pm

@ANAJMI
Great! You do that.
Let these Proggies decide for their own.
Proggies, please stand up! :D

Udaipuri
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#38

Unread post by Udaipuri » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:28 pm

Adam,
You did not actually answer my questions, you're asking me to go and read books. You've read these books and you undersand the Dawoodi Bohra beliefs so why don't you answer. It will save 99% Bohras a lot of time.

You say:
Exactly, if you read my above post, and learn the TRUE beliefs from these books, you'll realize nothing has changed.
Of course things have changed. Please tell me any Dai (not imams, not prophets) from the past (before Sayedna Taher Saifuddin) who called himself Sultan, who demanded money from Bohras from birth to death, who's children were called shahzadas, shahzadis, who allowed sajda and kadambosi, who used community money for personal luxury, who tried to own all Bohra prosperties and even their souls, who controlled local jamaat by appointing his stooge aamils, who ex-communicated people for asking accounts, who silently witnessed his followers being beaten and molested (Galiakot), who demanded money to visit people's houses, who allowed people to greet him and his family with folded hands, who made Daiship into a family business, who turned dawat into a buisness enterprise, who gave titles of mullas and shaikhs in exchange for money, who joined hands with the devil (modi, thackeray) to buy peace, who did not care about the poverty and misery of thier followers, who... the list is endless.

Don't say nothing has changed. Things have undergone a sea change. Please explain how your sources can support this dramatic change in the behaviour, conduct and status of Dai. Please do not bring Imams and Prophets into the picture. Let's compare apples with apples. Let's compare present Dai with historical Dais and see if any time in our history there has been a Dawat and a Dai as we have today.

Also, in your parrot like response, read this and read that, you forgot to justify how our Dai failed defend the Dawoodi Bohra belief of cursing the three khalifas. He went and publicly apologized. Didn't he know he was infallible? You should remind him to brush up on his Dawooid Bohra sources before lecturing us on our DB beliefs.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#39

Unread post by think » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:31 pm

it is shameful that these old bohris have lost all dignity. i wonder how their children and grand children would feel; to see their fathers and grandfather's dignity being snatched away by this 15 or so year old kid. The houston jamaat is surely nothing more than a bunch of -------

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#40

Unread post by progticide » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:58 am

Udaipuri,
Dont know if you are a mainstream DB or proggy, but I must admit that your english is eloquent. Businessmen do not have such fluency. Wonder what professional field you belong to?

Adam
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#41

Unread post by Adam » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:29 am

You did not actually answer my questions, you're asking me to go and read books.

I did actually, I said to go to your Progy Dai/Leader and ask him.
Don't ask me, i'm a "Bad Abde"! :D

All your accusations in my opinion are false.

Since you brought up the Shehzada thing. I'll give you one example a previous Dai mentioned (since you wanted proof from a previous Dai). Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin RA in his famous "Kika Bhai", when referring to his son (Syedna Mohammed Badruddin) states
رهو سيدها نى سما
رهسى شهزاده نما
Where he refers to his son as the "Shehzada".


Udaipuri
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#42

Unread post by Udaipuri » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:17 am

Progticide,
Thank you for your compliment. What I write about is more important than how I write it. My profession is to expose the liars and pretenders who have hijacked our Dawat and screwing our community.

Adam,
Wow man, your are pathetic. Is that your comeback? I brought up a lot of things but the only thing you could find was one piddly example of some Dai making a reference to "shahzada" in a poem. Is this the depth of your knowledge and scholarship? If you think if my (reformist) accusations are false then prove them as false - case by case, point by point. You wanted Proggies to stand up. Well, we're standing here. Looks like you are still trying to find your feet. You cannot defend the Dai. The Dai cannot defend himself. Reminds me of the Humpty Dumpty ditty:
Adam and Dai sat on a wall
Adam and Dai had a great fall
All Adam's sources, and all the Adam's beliefs
Couldn't put broken Dawat together again

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#43

Unread post by progticide » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:38 am

Udaipuri wrote:Progticide,
Thank you for your compliment. What I write about is more important than how I write it. My profession is to expose the liars and pretenders who have hijacked our Dawat and screwing our community.
Udaipuri,
since when did the followers become leaders in the matter of dawat. The Dawat is not "our" Dawat or "your" Dawat or the prog's Dawat. The Dawat belongs solely to the Imam uz Zaman and during his seclusion the absolute authority in matter of Dawat is assigned to the Dai-e-Mutlaq who during our time is Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin TUS.

Isliye badi badi baatein karne se pehle apni auqaat ko samajhlo. Since the Dawat never belonged to you in the first place, therefore there is no question of it being hijacked. You are merely a subject of the Dawat. Dont try and claim ownership of it and attempt becoming Master.

The above comment of yours exhibits your ignorance of the religion/faith that you follow. Now don't blame this ignorance on others, least the Dai, since knowledge is available to those who seek, not demand. And the Dai has absolute authority to decide who receives what portion of knowledge based on ones ability, judging that is solely his prerogative and not yours. So if you want to educate yourself in matters concerning Dawat and faith then you should approach the authorised sources within our community and not demand answers/clarifications to your doubts/queries on a forum like this.

If still in doubts about what I have said above, read "Kitab al Alim wal ghulam", english translation "The Master and the Disciple". Author Syedna Jafar ibn Mansur Al Yaman, available on Amazon.com

BTW, how old are you?

Udaipuri
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#44

Unread post by Udaipuri » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:53 am

Progticide,
Kyon baal ki khaal nikaal rahe ho. What would the Imam and the Dai do with the Dawat without the followers? Pickle it? When we say "our" it is not in the sense of owning it but in the sense of belonging to it. So just relax, we proggies are not interested in assuming the leadership of the Dawat. We just want to get rid of the liars and pretenders who have hijacked the Dawat and, I personally supspect, also the Imam.
As for knowledge and sources and all that claptrap that you so pompously talk about we know that you cannot find enough of it to defend the Dai and his depredations. In fact, even the Dai is hard pressed to defend himself. If you think the Dai has the prerogative of deciding who is worthy of that knowledge then I have a suggestion to you all: stuff it.

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#45

Unread post by progticide » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:02 am

Udaipuri wrote:Progticide,
Kyon baal ki khaal nikaal rahe ho. What would the Imam and the Dai do with the Dawat without the followers? .
Udaipuri,
You have once again proved that you have absolutely no knowledge of even the basic concepts of ismailism. Leave alone the Taweel and Haqaiq that is taught in sabaqs, if you even had the fortune of attending Syedna TUS Muharram wa'az, you would have known that it was the followers who pleaded to their Master for deliverence after having fallen from the heavens. So it is not the Imam and the Dai who need us, it is the other way. However, this concept is too big for your pea-sized brain and therefore I said that the prerogative for imparting the amount of knowledge is entirely that of the Imam and its Dai-eMutlaq.

Therefore, become coming to a pathetic forum like this to shout anti-DB slogans and vent your frustration (which actually could be because your wife is not pretty, or your children dont respect you, or your parents think you are useless which you seem to be, or your neighbours not inviting you for social gatherings, or you in-laws not financially helpful, or you have some physical incompetence due to medical complications or age that is making marriage less exciting, or your boss is not happy with your work etc.) on something which would not have immediate ramifications to your life, I suggest you try educating yourself first on religious matters and possibly undertake psychiatric assistance.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#46

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:26 am

progticide wrote:(which actually could be because your wife is not pretty, or your children dont respect you, or your parents think you are useless which you seem to be, or your neighbours not inviting you for social gatherings, or you in-laws not financially helpful, or you have some physical incompetence due to medical complications or age that is making marriage less exciting, or your boss is not happy with your work etc.) on something which would not have immediate ramifications to your life, I suggest you try educating yourself first on religious matters and possibly undertake psychiatric assistance.
Excellent Display of your Education !! Did you learn these from Sabaks !

Udaipuri
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#47

Unread post by Udaipuri » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:17 am

Progticide,
Thank you for all the good things you said about me, it's so delightful to see you abdes losing your marbles. Even if whatever you said about me is true, it is all beside the point. It does not take away from the fact that this Dai and this Dawat, as they are, have no religious grounds to stand on, the whole decadent structure of corupption and tyranny is built on lies and fabrication. And it is the inability of Abdes to prove otherwise that's drivinig your people batty.
While I'm off to a psychatrist, can you please look for your buddy Adam? Where has he disappeared? Looks like all his sources and DB beliefs couldn't protect him from the heat of scrutiny. As for prerogative of imparting knowledge, let me repeat: stuff it.

think
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#48

Unread post by think » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:59 am

A new Dai by the name of Dai Abdullah is born in Malasia. He already has a following of many.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#49

Unread post by SBM » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:51 pm

How hypocritical of Mustaf Nutwala, He like the posting of Progticide making fun of Udaipuri's wife and family and when AZ did the same for Mustafa Nutwala's wife he went all ballistic.
Hypocrites of Superior kind.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:48 pm

Sir, progticide has never made fun of anyones wife. he has made a generalised statement to the world at large.
mustafanalwalla wouldn't know the different between generalized and specific comments just like he doesn't know the difference between apples and pineapples. He thinks pineapples are apples that grow on pine trees. Here is the statement made by progticide.
which actually could be because your wife is not pretty,
addressed to Udaipuri.

I am scratching my head to figure out how that is a "generalized statement to the world at large". Pretty soon I am going to go bald. I have to scratch my head everytime I read a comment from mustafanalwalla. The only reason I read them is because after the scratching of the head, I have a good laugh at his complete ignorance of his own stupidity.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#51

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:16 pm

mustafanulwalla wrote: Sir, progticide has never made fun of anyones wife. he has made a generalised statement to the world at large. That perhaps, any of the reasons that he mentioned could be the cause of the bee in his bonnet.
"Generalised statement to the world at large." Really? Read again what progticide is writing: "your" this and "your" that - what is the generalised satement to the world about that. Unless of course there is some taawil and abde haqaaiq in the pronoun "your". Isn't it enough that abdes more knowledgeable than you are distorting our religious text that now a twit like you should distort something that is so plain and simple! Is twisting and distorting meaning a requirement for being an abde? I think the thrashing you get by all and sundry on this Forum is well deserved. And you keep coming back for more. Are you a masochist or what? Don't you get enough grief being an abde?

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#52

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:35 pm

Here is the statement again.
which actually could be because your wife is not pretty,
Do you know how sentences in english are formed and read? What is the "could be" in the above sentence for? Is it saying that could be your wife is not pretty? or is it saying could be "because your wife is not pretty"???

Remember, there is a reason why your Dai gets away with taking you for a complete idiot. And that reason is that you are a complete idiot!

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#53

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:41 pm

mustafanalwalla wrote:
SBM wrote:How hypocritical of Mustaf Nutwala, He like the posting of Progticide making fun of Udaipuri's wife and family and when AZ did the same for Mustafa Nutwala's wife he went all ballistic.
Hypocrites of Superior kind.

And yes, i totally raped AZ and Boom
nalwala,

an impotent, immoral coward like you who has to dream up the syedna to save his sorry behind from getting fired from his job and worse, getting prosecuted for sexual harassment of his female colleagues is man enough to r***??

the only orgasms you get are when syedna appears in your dreams, (after which you have to wipe yr stinking behind with toilet paper) and yet you venture to make such tall claims of r***ing others? you were castrated years ago when you underwent a 2nd khatna to prove your allegiance to syedna and the 3rd one for his manhoos.

you claim to be a a broad minded guy, having married a hindu and nodding yr head like a sycophant when facts about syedna murdering wild animals and his manhoos conversing with hoze' in the qabr come up and yet you show 'like' and approvals for posts making personal insults.

in order to show you how it feels, i have no option but to give you a taste of your own medicine, you hypocrite and shameless gutter-born rascal.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#54

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:20 pm

mustafanullwala wrote:Anyways, from where i stand, Progticide has not insulted anyones family. He has said it 'could be' and 'perhaps', but anyways, i cant defend his words, so i will leave it at that
Another idiotic statement. You don't have to defend prog's words, just explain how you turned specific personal remarks into a "general statement to the world at large."

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#55

Unread post by progticide » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:35 am

@Udaipuri,
I know one of the above options is true with you. I work in the area of Human Psychology after all.
You haven't told me your profession yet, or I might have told you some more scientific details about your life which probably you might not have realised till date.

If you dont want to share your profession on the thread than PM me. I'll reply to that on PM.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#56

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:05 pm

And you my friend, come back to me when you have the balls.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:35 pm

By the way, Muslim First was never insulted. Whoever you think insulted him was actually making a generalised statement to the world at large. So when you came to Muslim First's defense you were only proving that you are an idiot.

When I say "you are an idiot", I am actually making a generalized statement to the world at large. Also, when Al Zulfikar kicked your butt, he was kicking the generalized butt of the world at large so there was no need for you to get mad. But you didn't actually get mad at Al Zulfikar, you were getting mad at the world at large and when the progressives tell the truth about the Dai and call him a fraud, they are just making a generalised statement to the world at large.

Now remember, I am still not standing up to other members of this site by making a generalised statement to the world at large, so I am still not coming back to you.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#58

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:37 pm

Was getting bored so I thought I will have a go at the biggest idiot on this forum one more time by making a generalised statement to the world at large. :wink:

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#59

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:25 pm

anajmi, you're just too funny man!!

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: PROGGIES please stand up!

#60

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:17 pm

Humsafar,

If you like my post, then why are you making a generalised statement to the world at large instead of just directly referring to me?

By the way, I am going to milk this till kingdome come. Gems like this come rarely even though there is an abundace of abde idiots on this board.