Imams do not not know Ghayb

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porus
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Imams do not not know Ghayb

#1

Unread post by porus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:28 pm

Image

The above is from Section 18 of Qadi Noman's al-Majaalis wa al-Musaayiraat. It is entitled " Statement on Exaggerators".

Rough Translation:

I, (Qadi Noman), heard Imam Qaa'im bi-Amrillah say that:

He (Imam) has heard concerning a group of Dais who exaggerate concerning him and his ancestors, the truthful Imams, saying that "They have the knowledge of Ghayb". Curse be upon them. They cast aspersions on us and tell lies about us. By Allah, they wish nothing except to portray us as liars and keep people from us.

Qadi Noman continues quoting Imam Muiz li-Dinillah as saying that the "ghayb" entrusted to Imams is not hidden from the people. Imam Muiz then quotes the ayat 65 of Sura al-Naml (27:65)

قُل لَّا يَعْلَمُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ الْغَيْبَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ

Say: “None in the heavens or on earth knows the hidden reality [of anything that exists: none knows it] save God.” (Asad Translation)

Imam Muiz says that it is as Allah says (sadqallah).

*****

Thus the popular notion that Imams and their Dais are 'ghayb na jaannaar' has been squarely condemned by Imams as reported by Sayedna Qadi Noman.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#2

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:59 pm

an amazing find porus...!!

now lets watch that kothari agent adam come here and attempt to refute ... this will be interesting. let us observe how he nimble toes around this one.

Adam
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#3

Unread post by Adam » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:11 pm

Yes that is correct. What is mentioned in Majalis al Musayaraat and other Fatimid is what we believe in. You haven't quoted anything new.

SBM
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#4

Unread post by SBM » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:14 am

Adam wrote:Yes that is correct. What is mentioned in Majalis al Musayaraat and other Fatimid is what we believe in. You haven't quoted anything new.
So you agree that Dai who is an extension of Imam is not GHAYAB NA JANAAR

porus
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#5

Unread post by porus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:27 pm

Adam wrote:Yes that is correct. What is mentioned in Majalis al Musayaraat and other Fatimid is what we believe in. You haven't quoted anything new.
It is new to most participants on this board. Like Aamils, there is a tendency among abdes to drop names of Fatimid books in Arabic which are inaccessible to most Bohras. I hope you will be able to avoid being like them by providing extracts you are referencing like you have done patchily.

It is interesting that Imam al-Qaim reprimands Dais, (presumably his Dais), for lying about ghayb. I rather think that Sayyid Mufaddal, the 53rd Dai, should heed this warning, especially regarding his alleged conversation with his dead brother from his grave. That is because I think he, Sayyid Mufaddal is suggesting he knows ghayb.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#6

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:37 pm

Adam wrote:Yes that is correct. What is mentioned in Majalis al Musayaraat and other Fatimid is what we believe in. You haven't quoted anything new.
Adam'

If it is true then what the hell have you been doing all the time defending the Imam's and Dai's infallibility ? Were you singing 'mera joota hai japani, yeh patlun hindustani'

Udaipuri
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#7

Unread post by Udaipuri » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:42 pm

Porus,
The Fatimid books are the proverbial fig leaf for the Dai, his Dawat and his defenders. They will quote the sources and books so long as they can twist their meaning to support their action. Where they cannot they just plain ignore the books and sources. As to hows and whys of it, we two-faced cowards will never understand. The mansoos, the 53rd of course knows the ghayb regardless of what the book says. He is supposed to be infallible, isn't he? So he can't make a mistake, right? So either the Imam is wrong, an impossibility, or the mansoos just corssed the line, which is very likely. That means he made a mistake. Ergo, he is not infallible. Nor is his father. This whole infallibility of the Dai is a hoax. The Dai and his mansoos are proving this themselves, without our help. :D

Adam
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#8

Unread post by Adam » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:10 am

@PORUS
I just said, the quotation you have given is completely correct according to DB beliefs.
Basically what is mentioned in that is people did "Ghulu" in the Imam, calling him Allah and attributing Allas characteristics to him (ie Ghayb) etc.

The beliefs we have of the Imams is "under control", thus you cannot attribute an Allah Charachteristic to an Imam.
The DB belief of knowning "Ghayb" is very simple.
Ghayb simply means, knowing what others do not know, what is غائب from them.
Thus as mentioned by the same author (Syedna Qazi Noman) he says Imams know what others do not. But by no means is it the same as Allahs knowledge of "Ghayb"

anajmi
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:14 am

The only thing your Imam knows and has taught you very well is how to twist words and sentences.

Udaipuri
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#10

Unread post by Udaipuri » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:28 am

Adam wrote:Ghayb simply means, knowing what others do not know, what is غائب from them.
I've knowledge of Ghayb: the Dai and his Dawat are corrupt. I know what Adam and Abde Borhas do not know, this knowledge is غائب from them.

anajmi
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:42 am

But freely available on this board. :wink:

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#12

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Adam wrote:
Ghayb simply means, knowing what others do not know, what is غائب from them.
in that respect syedna and his manhoos definitely have GHAYB.

ONLY THEY KNOW HOW MANY 1000'S OF CRORES THEY HAVE STASHED AWAY, HOW MANY PALACES, HOW MANY PROPERTIES, HOW MANY SHARES/BONDS/STOCKS, HOW MANY TONNES OF GOLD, DIAMONDS AND OTHER ASSETS ....KNOWLEDGE WHICH AN ORDINARY ABDE BOHRA DOES NOT POSSESS...!!!

think
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#13

Unread post by think » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:50 pm

now a days they are not even aware of how much money wealth they have, because some of it is siphoned off in the pockets of his cronies and chamchas who give them importance in the first place.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#14

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:45 pm

Bro porus,

Do you concur with the interpretation of Adam with regard to your translation of Qadi Noman's al-Majaalis wa al-Musaayiraat ?

porus
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#15

Unread post by porus » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:29 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:Bro porus,

Do you concur with the interpretation of Adam with regard to your translation of Qadi Noman's al-Majaalis wa al-Musaayiraat ?
I believe that Imam refers to 'ghayb' as in ayat 2:3, whereas Adam refers to 'ghayb' as something that only Imams know. Let us write 'ghayb' in ayat 2:3 in capitlas as 'GHAYB'.

In the extract that I quoted, reference is to 'GHAYB' and there is no reference to 'ghayb'.

'GHAYB" is not available to an Imam, let alone to share it with others.

Thus I think that Adam is not trying to interpret the extract but he points to some other kind of knowledge ('ghayb') which, presumably, Imam will share with some select group of people. That is entirely possible. Adam's 'ghayb'could be 'baatin', known to Imams but not to all and which could be made available to others.

Let me reproduce what I previously wrote about this on this forum:

****

"This brings me to the issue of Baatin, Zaahir and Taawil. Quran uses all these words in connection with the content of the Quran and all these appear to be accessible to humans. What is clearly not accessible is what the Quran calls Ilm-ul-Ghayb, or the Hidden Knowledge, which the Quran states is known only to Allah.

Zaahir is the ‘apparent meaning’. This, of course, does not mean that it is apparent to everyone. You can verify this by consulting different translations.

‘Baatin’ is the ‘inner meaning’. Muslims have sought guidance from the Quran in all sorts of subjects. When the meaning is not apparent, there is a belief that with deep study these meanings can be discovered.

‘Taawil’ is used as a synonym for ‘Baatin’. But they are different. Taawil is the ‘process’ one engages in to get to the ‘Baatin’. So, when someone says that this is taawil, what they mean is is that it is baatin as derived by some respected authority through the process of taawil.

Taawil is not Ghayb. The latter is known only to Allah.

Quran warns people to stay away from the process of taawil unless they are very well versed in the study of the Quran.

Once, you accept that someone is qualified to engage in the process of taawil and impart the baatin of Quran to you then you are his follower. The authority may be true or false. Without a large body of scholars and an open system to check his interpretations, corruption is clearly possible."

asad
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#16

Unread post by asad » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:08 am

Adam wrote:@PORUS
I just said, the quotation you have given is completely correct according to DB beliefs.
Basically what is mentioned in that is people did "Ghulu" in the Imam, calling him Allah and attributing Allas characteristics to him (ie Ghayb) etc.

The beliefs we have of the Imams is "under control", thus you cannot attribute an Allah Charachteristic to an Imam.
The DB belief of knowning "Ghayb" is very simple.
Ghayb simply means, knowing what others do not know, what is غائب from them.
Thus as mentioned by the same author (Syedna Qazi Noman) he says Imams know what others do not. But by no means is it the same as Allahs knowledge of "Ghayb"
Adam,

In 1430 Zikra Majlis in Surat Syedna Sahab had said that he knows whats happening in any DB's house and he warned all kihudmatguzars to conduct themself in a better way with a mumin. All DB's sitting their went hysterical that Syedna knows whats happening at his back and has now warned every one.

My question Syedna knowing whats happening in my house is which kind of ghayb

anajmi
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:22 am

That is kind of like my neighbour. She knows pretty much everything that is going on in every house on our street. She is also a "ghayb ni jankaar".

progticide
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#18

Unread post by progticide » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:25 am

Porus,
What is the purpose behind posting this content? What are you trying prove? The premise of any debate/discussion is to accomplish certain objective which is going to help achieve any tangible/intangible benefit.

In the present case, in this thread, it is unclear what is the objective you are trying to achieve, because there is nothing which you have produced that is contested by the mainstream DBs and therefore a debate is nowhere in picture. Only what is ostensible in this thread again is the same old crap from few jokers who probably have no better work to do in their miserable life.

What are you trying to achieve from this futile activity?
1. Are you trying to show off the literature in your possession to impress your proggy admirers?
2. Are you trying to show off your knowledge of Arabic literature?
3. Are you trying to undermine the authority of the religious leaders?
4. Or maybe you trying to just pass time at this old age?

The reference you have quoted above is from Syedna Qadi Numan's book. However, before quoting/disclosing works from books belonging to Syedna Qadi Numan, who was Chief Qadi during Imam Muiz AS' reign. you should have taken time to read and follow the instruction for the seeker of knowledge mentioned in the book Kitab alim wal ghulam, by Syedna Jafar ibn Mansur al yaman, who was Imam Muiz AS' Bab al Abwaab.

I am sure you have read this work quite early in your life, but may be it is time for you to read it again.

humanbeing
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#19

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:34 am

Some one is getting scared, apprehensive or uncomfortable with such discussion !!

"Somebody is gonna get hurt real bad" - Russel Peters

Hussain_KSA
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#20

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:47 am

Porus,

Indeed you are doing great job by educating other on fiqah, shariat and history while others are just want to hide it. All the books from where brother Adam is qouting are in your possession. Adam has also qouted from book sharh al akhbar, this is part of the book of Syedna Kirman's " rahat ul Aql" Please let me know if you would like to send this book to you. I can aslso send you the book " Alim wal Ghulam" of Jafar bin Mansoor.
Please dont mind others objecting your hard work. I wish if I could get enough time to do it myself.
Regards

Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#21

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:19 am

i agree with you bro, hussain.

porus is indeed catching these deceptive liars on their wrong foot everytime.

the reason i get mad with crooks like adam and aqs is because they merrily misquote the deeni scriptures because they know 99.99% of gullible and ignorant bohras have no access to these books. these books have been cleverly expropriated and stashed away and denied access to bohras under guise of raza and if anyone has them they are termed as 'thieves' and rascals.

porus, i really appreciate the amount of time, effort and patience you are bringing to bear to fight against these charlatans, supported and financed by the saifee mahal crooks.
Last edited by Al Zulfiqar on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

profastian
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#22

Unread post by profastian » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:22 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:i agree with you bro, hussain.

porus is indeed catching these deceptive liars on their wrong foot everytime.

the reason i get mad with crroks like adam and aqs is because they merrily misquote the deeni scriptures because they know 99.99% of gullible and ignorant bohras have no access to these books. these books have been cleverly expropriated and stashed away and denied access to bohras under guise of raza and if anyone has them they are termed as 'thieves' and rascals.

porus, i really appreciate the amount of time, effort and patience you are bringing to bear to fight against these charlatans, supported and financed by the saifee mahal crooks.
I wonder how porus is supported and financed :? :?

porus
Posts: 3594
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#23

Unread post by porus » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:06 pm

Hussain_KSA wrote:Porus,

Indeed you are doing great job by educating other on fiqah, shariat and history while others are just want to hide it. All the books from where brother Adam is qouting are in your possession. Adam has also qouted from book sharh al akhbar, this is part of the book of Syedna Kirman's " rahat ul Aql" Please let me know if you would like to send this book to you. I can aslso send you the book " Alim wal Ghulam" of Jafar bin Mansoor.
Please dont mind others objecting your hard work. I wish if I could get enough time to do it myself.
Regards
Brother Husain_KSA,

Thank you for your comments. Indeed, my ability to quote extracts from Fatimi and Bohra books owes entirely to your desire in making this knowledge widely available. You deserve primary credit for my personal education. Thank you very much.

Yes, please send me Raht al-Aql as well as Alim wa-l Ghulam. You also mentioned Uyun al-Akhbar and Zahra al-Ma'ani. If you have these please send them to me too.

I appreciate you sending me this treasure. I may not be able to read all of them due to time constraint but I can browse them for specific issues that arise on this board and, hopefully make some useful contribution without misrepresenting what these books have to say. I firmly believe that an educated community, with unrestricted access to their cultural and religious heritage, is the best insurance against tyranny and corruption.

Al Zulfiqar wrote: porus, i really appreciate the amount of time, effort and patience you are bringing to bear to fight against these charlatans, supported and financed by the saifee mahal crooks.
Thank you al Zulfiqar for your encouraging comment. However, I want to give abdes on this forum benefit of doubt. I believe that they are here on their own personal accord with interest in what is being said on this forum.

progticide
Posts: 469
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Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#24

Unread post by progticide » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:16 am

Porus,
Why this pretence?
You visit Beirut probably more often than the entire progs put together. You have all this books with you, I know that. Any missing works would be available in your university library for sure.

Why take poor Hussain_KSA for a ride? You might actually land him in problems for sending these works to you (even by email or FTP) from Saudi given the current turmoil there and the probable policing of the internet traffic in place.

Anyways, its upto you progs. As if I care. But again, time for you to read Kitab Alim wal Ghulam again.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#25

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:41 am

progticide wrote:Porus,
Why this pretence?
You visit Beirut probably more often than the entire progs put together. You have all this books with you, I know that. Any missing works would be available in your university library for sure.

Why take poor Hussain_KSA for a ride? You might actually land him in problems for sending these works to you (even by email or FTP) from Saudi given the current turmoil there and the probable policing of the internet traffic in place.

Anyways, its upto you progs. As if I care. But again, time for you to read Kitab Alim wal Ghulam again.
Dont worry about me. I am distributing these books since last five years. I get most of the emails from Dawoodi Bohras mainstream looking for books and basic litrature. in 1995 I have donated books to Jamia Saifia too. I can understand your concern because of these secrete books. I did not get these book from Kothar. I belongs to one of the three families who declined to obey farman of 51 syedna regarding giving all dawat books to him. I am in touch with Hamdanis and Dr. Zahid Ali's family too. Threre are around 1.8 lakh Suliemani bohras with their Syedna living in southern part of Saudi Arabia beside other bohras. I got few books from Saudi Arabian University library too. This would be note of proud for you that one book written by 51st Syedna regardin brief biography of dai their mazoons too exist in that library. If you search trhough this forum you will find that I did write on this forum regarding the poem of 51st syedna too.
I believe many people getting benefit from this forum otherwise why people like you will visit here violating raza and meethaque given to Dai.
BTW, I don't know if you would like to digest this news but very soon all of these books will be uploaded on this site. You will be able to read few more books which you don't have access to them.

Regards.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#26

Unread post by porus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:03 am

Hussain_KSA wrote: ..... very soon all of these books will be uploaded on this site. You will be able to read few more books which you don't have access to them.
That is indeed an excellent news! Jazakallah khayr, brother.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#27

Unread post by accountability » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:28 am

Excellent post Porus. Hussain bhai your contribution is admirable.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#28

Unread post by profastian » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:53 am

progticide wrote:Porus,
What is the purpose behind posting this content? What are you trying prove? The premise of any debate/discussion is to accomplish certain objective which is going to help achieve any tangible/intangible benefit.

In the present case, in this thread, it is unclear what is the objective you are trying to achieve, because there is nothing which you have produced that is contested by the mainstream DBs and therefore a debate is nowhere in picture. Only what is ostensible in this thread again is the same old crap from few jokers who probably have no better work to do in their miserable life.

What are you trying to achieve from this futile activity?
1. Are you trying to show off the literature in your possession to impress your proggy admirers?
2. Are you trying to show off your knowledge of Arabic literature?
3. Are you trying to undermine the authority of the religious leaders?
4. Or maybe you trying to just pass time at this old age?

The reference you have quoted above is from Syedna Qadi Numan's book. However, before quoting/disclosing works from books belonging to Syedna Qadi Numan, who was Chief Qadi during Imam Muiz AS' reign. you should have taken time to read and follow the instruction for the seeker of knowledge mentioned in the book Kitab alim wal ghulam, by Syedna Jafar ibn Mansur al yaman, who was Imam Muiz AS' Bab al Abwaab.

I am sure you have read this work quite early in your life, but may be it is time for you to read it again.
Yeah progticide, I sometimes wonder why he keeps playing games and does not discuss these in the open. Maybe he doesn't understand its content and fears being laughed off or maybe he is secretly a 46er or 50er or something(under the guise of a free thinking philosopher) and feels under oath to not disclose the contents of these books but slyly keeps giving references to them to provoke wahabis and sunnis on this forum.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#29

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:15 pm

bro. hussain,

one of the families i know that did not surrender their treasure trove was the dholkawala family from mumbai who still run a trust by the name of dholkawala trust. one of their sons was my father's close friend and having taken a liking to me, he passed on a few items to me which i still hold dear.

of course, the 51st syedna excommunicated the family because they refused to comply. some of the members have remained inside, fearful of the repurcussions but remain very bitter to this day.

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Imams do not not know Ghayb

#30

Unread post by progticide » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:10 am

porus wrote:
Hussain_KSA wrote: ..... very soon all of these books will be uploaded on this site. You will be able to read few more books which you don't have access to them.
That is indeed an excellent news! Jazakallah khayr, brother.
This is truly one project that you should undertake at the earliest.

This way we DBs would not have to debate or deal with you anymore since the entire sunni/wahhabi hacker community would come down on this pathetic forum like an avalanche. This action of yours would ensure that this miserable site is hunted down and hacked to oblivion.

Some extremist group may even start digging up information about the site's promoters and administrators. Some of the names and jamaat addresses are already available on this website to start with. All the Best to you.