SANTA CLAUS IS COMING TO TOWN

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Guest

SANTA CLAUS IS COMING TO TOWN

#1

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 08, 2001 5:18 pm

Houston and surrounding area babes - Get ready to sit on his lap with big big dough.



Guest

#2

Unread post by Guest » Sat Mar 10, 2001 8:37 pm

There's a really neat saying, FARZANA, that goes something like...It is better to be silent and let folks think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and prove it to them........<p>



Guest

#3

Unread post by Guest » Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:17 pm

Hallo masaai, who is talking about being an idiot.By telling the truth, does not make one an idiot but being a hypocrates like you makes one an idiot.Just the fact that you go under a name of masaai proves that.I can understand your need not to be recognised, but at least use a name approved by your mola, I am sure he can give you an appropriate name. One of kothar´s hobby is to rename mumins and muminats.



Guest

#4

Unread post by Guest » Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:19 pm

That's right Masaai. So, just keep your trap shut!



Guest

#5

Unread post by Guest » Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:38 pm

See, this is exactly what I'm trying to say here. ANWAR, the saying clearly applies to ya, my brother:-) What is truthful about "Get ready to sit on his lap with big big dough?" An allegation w/o substance is just a sign of low aptitude, I'm afraid......... <br>I am named after my IMAM AL-MUIZZ LI-DIN-ALLAH....surely you do know of the Imamat, don't ya? Now, I'll try and illuminate your darkenss. I did not use my name because I just felt like calling myself a Masaai.....do you even know who the Masaai are...Or are you just being plain ignorant, my friend?:-) I'm an African, so I choose to carry that name as my pseudo name...is that O.K. with ya?:-)<p>"One of kothar´s hobby is to rename mumins and muminats...." Again where ignorance is bliss it's folly to be wise.....but I'll try. How is a child's name given in the Bohra community? Let's see, there is NO compulsion to ask the Dai-El-Mutlaq for a child's name....I hope even you can understand this really simple concept. I'm assuming your parents asked the Dai for your name, why don't you "all-knowing" ask ur parents why they chose to do so?:-)<p>I think you need to step back, take a few deep breaths, PRAY, and see your erring ways clearly. Allaho Minazoolomaate, Illanoore!



Guest

#6

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:31 am

Dear Masaai,<p>With respect to names, look around you and tell me how many Bohras you know who got their names changed after having passed half their lives?<p>And how many non-Bohras had to change their names because they were getting married to Bohras?<p>And if you still think there are none who are compelled to change their names, let me know if I need to change my name in order to marry a Bohra female, my name is Omer.<p>If you are interested in Prophet's Sunnah regarding this, he changed names of only those Companions which indicated shirk or some element of sin. Abdus-Shams was renamed to Abu Huraira, but Abu Bakr and Omer were left as they were upon their conversion.<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan



Guest

#7

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:37 pm

Masaai, I know what a masaai is, and I would think that a masaai would not be happy that you are, with your sence and brain, using their tribal name.One does not have to ask moula or his represetative for a name change, they give you one and you got to accept it. I personally know of moula or his represetatives who have changed absolutely legitimate names found in Holy Quran, and this is done as a rule, from my experience, rather than exeption. A time has come when its literally necessary for me to ask my host family, their children´s name as, with every appropriate occation one of their family member has a new name.



Guest

#8

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:17 pm

Musalmaan,<br>"With respect to names, look around you and tell me how many Bohras you know who got their names changed after having passed half their lives?"<p>I personally do not know anyone who has their name changed. Does it happen? I couldn't tell ya....I simply don't know!<p>ANWAR, my friend, how do you know the Masaai won't like my using the pseudoname? Are you one of them? How many Masaais' do you know personally? See, there's a saying Empty vessels make the most noise...got it?:-)<br>



Guest

#9

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:37 pm

Dear Masaai,<p>Oh yes it happens. I am not a Bohra but sometimes it seems that I know more about the community than an average Bohra. Or may be I choose wrong persons to be my heroes.<p>Bohra community has this implicit belief that names affect the personality of a human being. Infact the names recommended by Dr Burhanuddin Shah are more or less confined to a fixed set. And sometimes the priesthood realizes that name needs to be changed after marriage because personalities represtented by the names of the bride and the groom clash. Many have to go through remaking their official papers. Some even get their names changed late in their lives for reasons best known to the priesthood. However the latter manage to avoid the inconvenience of redoing the formal paperwork.<p>And Anwar is very right in that one does not need to ask for names, priesthood imposes it. You cannot refuse it, thanks mainly to the tightly knit community relationships.<p>And what explanation can you provide for those who have to change their names upon conversion. You chose not to answer the question. Apparently the historical facts and everyday practice are quite antagonistic to each other.<p>Best Regards,<br>Musalmaan



Guest

#10

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:42 pm

And to answer my question that you posed back to me,<p>I do know a few Bohras who got renamed both from the Rawalpindi and Karachi jama'ats. I cannot give the names right now, but if you insist, I shall seek persmission and provide their identities.<p>In the meantime, all I can do is ask the audience if they can provide some examples to satisfy Masaai's needs.<p>Best,<br>Musalmaan



Guest

#11

Unread post by Guest » Wed Mar 14, 2001 5:40 am

>>> Abdus-Shams was renamed to Abu Huraira, but Abu Bakr and Omer were left as they were upon their conversion.<<<<p><br>I would like to correct you, to the best of my knowledge:<p>Abdus-Shams (servant of the Sun) was renamed to Abdur-Rahman (servant of the Beneficient) upon his conversion to Islam. Abu Hurairah (father of cats) was the nickname of Abdur-Rahman which people continued to use after he converted.<p>Same with Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr (father of cow) was his nickname. His real name was Abdul Kaaba (servant of Kaaba) which was renamed to Abdullah (servant of Allah) upon his conversion to Islam. Again he was more commonly known by his nickname Abu Bakr.<p>Jazakallah.<br>



Guest

#12

Unread post by Guest » Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:25 am

Greetings Muslim,<p>Nice to see you around. Actually I was sort of worried because you seemed to have disappeared.<p>Anyway, thanks for the corrections, a big advantage of message boards. I have not rechecked but it will always remind me to confirm the sources before I post.<p>Thanks,<br>Omer<p>(With respect to a previous argument, I would want you to have a look at 2:43 and Arabic text of 2:257)



Guest

#13

Unread post by Guest » Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:36 am

Masaai, I do not know of any masaai personally and probably I have never met one,but I do have seen them, read about them during my more than couple of visits to Kenya. As for name change, you are either a hypocrite, liar, or just do not want to accept the truth as it does not fit your interpretation of kothari. I can give you examples of name changes in your own (I asume you are from Kenya)jamaat,and I do correspond with one of them, that´s why I know.He would never agree, and neither would any of the others,to have their names on this board for fear of Baraat



Guest

#14

Unread post by Guest » Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:18 pm

"As for name change, you are either a hypocrite, liar, or just do not want to accept the truth as it does not fit your interpretation of kothari"<p>ANWAR, my friend, are you really this illiterate, man? Haven't you read what I wrote? I PERSONALLY DO NOT KNOW....how does that make me a hypocrite? Man, education is laazim in Islam, perhaps you should go get some of it, in this day and age being ignorant is not an excuse, my friend:-)<p>Musalman, as for changing names after conversion...what's the big deal about it? You yourself quote how the Prophet changed names after conversion...here's a reminder from Muslim...."Abdus-Shams (servant of the Sun) was renamed to Abdur-Rahman (servant of the Beneficient) upon his conversion to Islam. Abu Hurairah (father of cats) was the nickname of Abdur-Rahman which people continued to use after he converted. Same with Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr (father of cow) was his nickname. His real name was Abdul Kaaba (servant of Kaaba) which was renamed to Abdullah (servant of Allah) upon his conversion to Islam. Again he was more commonly known by his nickname Abu Bakr." Need I say more? This is not unsual....I know it happens in Christians, Muslims, etcetc........so why are you blowing a fuse over it, my rafik? This is such a personal issue. My uncle changed his religion when he married my aunt and he gladly changed his name........so, in this case he didn't mind either converting or changing his name!<p>Maasalaam.<br>



Guest

#15

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 15, 2001 12:42 am

Dear Masaai,<p>There is a difference between voluntarily changing name, and voluntarily converting but being forced to change name. For example, if I wish to convert today and not change my name, do I have a choice?<p>As for the reminder that you reposted, its not the act of changing names that needs to be blindly followed. Islam does not countenance blind belief and practices. Islam talks on reason. The reason behind name changes was that they implied shirk or sin. Go through the text posted by Muslim and see again. As I qustioned before, my name is Omer and what justification does anyone have for changing my name upon conversion when Prophet did not change this name on conversion of Omer bin al-Khattab?<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan



Guest

#16

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:33 pm

Asalaam Aleikum, Musalmaan,<p>O.K. here's my question......I'm assuming you're a Muslim (I mean, anyone can have a name, right:-)) what are you converting to? Secondly, have you tried to become a Bohra and was asked to change your name? Yes, Imam Ali(SA) Wasiyan Rasullollah, says one must never follow without questioning. However, I cannot base an arguement on WHAT IF scenarios... it's illogical and very UnIslamic, don't you agree?<br>Maasalaam.



Guest

#17

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:46 pm

Yes I am a Muslim, and thats what I tell everyone. Stop calling yourself Bohra if you believe in being a Muslim. Qur'an speaks one name, Muhammad gave us one name, why call yourself a name different than "Musalmaan" if neither Allah nor Muhammad sanctioned it? Being part of Bohra community is different than calling yourself a Bohra Muslim.<p>There are numerous people people who are *forced* to convert and change their names in case they have to get married to Bohras. It is not a "what if" scenario. "What If" scenario would suggest that you read nothing about Talaq till the day you have to divorce your wife, and even then you ask her to wait till you get to know how to pronounce divorce. Law ALWAYS works on a what if scenario.<p>If someone steals with minimum limit of xxx rupees, cut his hand.<p>If someone does not have water, perform tayammum and offer prayer.<p>So WHAT IF I had to become part of Bohra community, would I have to change my name? If yes, what explanation do you have?<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan<br>



Guest

#18

Unread post by Guest » Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:33 am

All you people are very childish arguing about stupid things like name changing and trading personal insults.<p>Why don't you all chill out and concentrate on suppressing your ego's and other base qualities and elevating your higher spiritual qualities. Whether you want to do this following MOulana or through your own interpretations of the Quraan is up to you, each to his own..as long as you follow the example of the Prophet and his family.



Guest

#19

Unread post by Guest » Fri Mar 16, 2001 7:59 am

Hussein, thanks for the message.<p>I do not consider any religious issue to be childish, especially when one considers Muhammad(sm) was told by Allah not to forbid honey on himself. For reference, see At-Tahrim 66:1-2. God has clearly laid down a rule that anything which has been made lawful by God should not be made unlawful, and this is being said to His beloved Prophet Muhammad(sm).<p>As far as religion is concerened, a bilateral discussion would suggest that both Masaai and I are willing to talk the issue. And it seems to be a very respectable discussion, as I cannot see any personal remark between us.<p>Discussing religion is not an offense by any means, infact its the only source of learning.<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan



Guest

#20

Unread post by Guest » Fri Mar 16, 2001 1:39 pm

Asalaam alikum and a blessed Jumua to ya'll. Musalmaan,<br>"If someone steals with minimum limit of xxx rupees, cut his hand."<br>"If someone does not have water, perform tayammum and offer prayer."<p>Surely, you don't wanna argue over this! You do know Imam Ali(AS) said an arguement w/o the purpose of learning is wrong! These are the SHARIAH. The laws as written in the Holy Quran! They are not WHAT IF scenarios, la! <p>As for the remark about calling ourselves Bohras. Let me enlighten you. The Dawoodi Bohra is a COMMUNITY, NOT a religion. Our religion is MUSLIM, we belong to the SHIA sect...in other words we ARE the followers of the Ahlul-Bait. We pledge..."La Illaha Illallah, Muhammed Rasoollullah, Aliyan Waliyullah, Wasiyan Rasoolullah." ....Our pledge is to honor Allah, and follow HIS chosen 5, and their children the IMAMS, and their Rightful representatives, the Dais. Our Dai-uz-zamaan is Syedna Muhammed Burhannudin (TUS), the ONLY legitimate representative of the Imam.<p>And why do we follow the Ahlul-Bait? In Eid-E-Gadir-E-Khum, the Prophet(SAW) said,"Man Kuntum Maoula ho, haaza Aliun Maoula."<p>Need I say more?:-)<p>Maasalaam.<p>



Guest

#21

Unread post by Guest » Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:03 pm

I believe it when you say that you classify yourself as a Muslim only and not a Bohra Muslim.<p>As for Law, Qur'an did set up the law and law is ALWAYS a "What If" scenario. For example one of the Laws in Bohra Community is,<p>If somebody by the name of "Omer" joins our community, change his name.<p>Since it already exists, it can always be challenged also. The source of the Law can be different, but it is followed as much as any other Law from Qur'an or Sunnah. Infact, since your last message implies that this is not a part of the Shariah, then why the necessity to follow it unconditionally?<p>Musalmaan



Guest

#22

Unread post by Guest » Sat Mar 17, 2001 12:31 pm

It's good to be a Bohra, I can now get a visa for the USA!



Guest

#23

Unread post by Guest » Sun Mar 18, 2001 4:52 pm

Hi masai ??<p>Your mola is coming to Houston. All these years after squeezing the community, he has decided to run away from thier problems and go to Houston to his son's house. How superficial.<p>And tell me how is he different than any other "BABA" who takes money to sell his blessings??