The True Imam - How would you verify?

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progticide
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The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1

Unread post by progticide » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:02 am

I am starting this topic with a hope that some genuine intellectual debate would result that would serve to either answer the questions rising out of this topic or generate enquiries within the progressive fold to find answers to these questions. The participants ofcourse are free to post their views and comments with whatever amount of knowledge that each one possesses on the subject. However, a sincere appeal is made to all (mainstream DBs and progressives) to desist from countering other participant’s views with mere abuse or ridicule in the absence of a rational argument to respond with.
If any person is averse to debating on this topic, I urge him/her to please ignore this topic and share his views on other threads without leaving any comments/slang on this topic.

I also request the participants to follow the below rules for this topic in order to avoid derailment of the subject:
1. Share your views based on authentic DB beliefs, whether Mainstrream DB beliefs or Progressive beliefs. But has to be from DB belief set. Hence, anyone not adhering to any of the above please excuse this topic. You are free to share your views elsewhere on this forum or start your own thread. Thus, beliefs from Isna Ashari school, Sunni schools, wahabi school are not to be expressed on this topic.
2. No slang/abuse/ridicule from any participant. No name calling on atleast this topic.
3. Any argument has to be countered with sober counter-argument with some logical sense. Participants kindly keep their nonsense with them, if any.
4. Any quotes from literature/history pertaining to this topic have to be mentioned from DB sources only of any period/age, but compulsorily DB.

Appeal to Admin to delete any post that does not adhere to the above (whether from mainstream DBs or progressives).



The common point between mainstream DBs and progressives on the subject of Imamat is that we all believe that this event i.e. the zuhoor of the Imam from the progeny of Fatima and Ali will take place in future. It is not a matter of if, but when.

Subject of Discussion: How would the mainstream DBs and Progressives verify the Imam-uz-Zaman’s identity upon his Zuhoor?

This is a non-issue for the Mainstream DBs since we believe in the infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq.The Dai-e-Mutlaq being the absolute and rightly appointed guide by the Imam during seclusion of the Imam, he is assigned with this task for the community. And the mainstream DBs have nothing to be concerned about on this matter. And the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word would be final on the matter. I would invite Adam & Profastian to correct me on the above in case of any discrepancy.

So, now the question is how are Progressive going to verify the identity of the Imam upon his Zuhoor?
1. Firstly, how would the progressives come to know that the Imam is about to come out of his seclusion? Who would inform them of this ?
2. Since, the Progressives do not believe in the authority and infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq of mainstream DBs, are they going to accept the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word on this?
3. If not, what is the mechanism that the progressives have laid down for this purpose?
4. Is the Central Board of progressives assigned with this task?
5. If yes, are all progressives united on this point?
6. If the Central Board of progressives is assigned with this task what is their qualification to undertake such a task? Are the progressives certain about the infallibility of their Central Board?
7. How would the progressives know who is the rightful Imam if there are multiple claimants to the title at one time? Such events have happened in the past where there have been multiple claimants to Imamat at the same time.

There is not much on this subject to be debated from the mainstream DB point of view as the matter is completely assigned to the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time and his authority on the matter is final for us.

Progressive point of view is invited strictly in light of the above topic of discussion.

Fateh
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#2

Unread post by Fateh » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:07 am

progticide wrote:I am starting this topic with a hope that some genuine intellectual debate would result that would serve to either answer the questions rising out of this topic or generate enquiries within the progressive fold to find answers to these questions. The participants ofcourse are free to post their views and comments with whatever amount of knowledge that each one possesses on the subject. However, a sincere appeal is made to all (mainstream DBs and progressives) to desist from countering other participant’s views with mere abuse or ridicule in the absence of a rational argument to respond with.
If any person is averse to debating on this topic, I urge him/her to please ignore this topic and share his views on other threads without leaving any comments/slang on this topic.

I also request the participants to follow the below rules for this topic in order to avoid derailment of the subject:
1. Share your views based on authentic DB beliefs, whether Mainstrream DB beliefs or Progressive beliefs. But has to be from DB belief set. Hence, anyone not adhering to any of the above please excuse this topic. You are free to share your views elsewhere on this forum or start your own thread. Thus, beliefs from Isna Ashari school, Sunni schools, wahabi school are not to be expressed on this topic.
2. No slang/abuse/ridicule from any participant. No name calling on atleast this topic.
3. Any argument has to be countered with sober counter-argument with some logical sense. Participants kindly keep their nonsense with them, if any.
4. Any quotes from literature/history pertaining to this topic have to be mentioned from DB sources only of any period/age, but compulsorily DB.

Appeal to Admin to delete any post that does not adhere to the above (whether from mainstream DBs or progressives).



The common point between mainstream DBs and progressives on the subject of Imamat is that we all believe that this event i.e. the zuhoor of the Imam from the progeny of Fatima and Ali will take place in future. It is not a matter of if, but when.

Subject of Discussion: How would the mainstream DBs and Progressives verify the Imam-uz-Zaman’s identity upon his Zuhoor?

This is a non-issue for the Mainstream DBs since we believe in the infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq.The Dai-e-Mutlaq being the absolute and rightly appointed guide by the Imam during seclusion of the Imam, he is assigned with this task for the community. And the mainstream DBs have nothing to be concerned about on this matter. And the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word would be final on the matter. I would invite Adam & Profastian to correct me on the above in case of any discrepancy.

So, now the question is how are Progressive going to verify the identity of the Imam upon his Zuhoor?
1. Firstly, how would the progressives come to know that the Imam is about to come out of his seclusion? Who would inform them of this ?
2. Since, the Progressives do not believe in the authority and infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq of mainstream DBs, are they going to accept the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word on this?
3. If not, what is the mechanism that the progressives have laid down for this purpose?
4. Is the Central Board of progressives assigned with this task?
5. If yes, are all progressives united on this point?
6. If the Central Board of progressives is assigned with this task what is their qualification to undertake such a task? Are the progressives certain about the infallibility of their Central Board?
7. How would the progressives know who is the rightful Imam if there are multiple claimants to the title at one time? Such events have happened in the past where there have been multiple claimants to Imamat at the same time.

There is not much on this subject to be debated from the mainstream DB point of view as the matter is completely assigned to the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time and his authority on the matter is final for us.

Progressive point of view is invited strictly in light of the above topic of discussion.
Salam bhai First of all i congratulates you for this fine topic.yes how we all, not how you verify.First we have all to verify which dai e mutalak is appointed by true Imam?I mean Alavi dai,our db dai, sulaimani dai or may be more.And is true Imam surely depend upon any dai to prove that he is Imam?

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:36 am

Here is a good way to verify the Imam. We will line up all Imams in a circle with first the DB Dai sitting on a rotating chair in the middle. Then we will say Bismillah and spin the chair. The guy that the Dai faces when his chair stops spinning will be the Imam Hopeful. Then we will make the Alavi Dai sit on the same chair and spin again. If the chair points to the same Imam, then he is Imam More Hopeful. Then we put the Sulaimani Dai on the chair and repeat the process. Now we have the 3/4th Imam. Then we put my Dai Futlak on the same chair. If the same Imam is chosen once again then we have our Imam. Remember, we have said Bismillah so the spinning Dai will point to the right Imam.

After this we put the Imam on the spinning chair and have all the Dais standing around him in a circle. We say Bismillah and spin the Imam. Case closed.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#4

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:43 am

Hi Progiticide.
A good topic you have presented for discussion. I m expressing my queries based upon DB belief preached to me through orthodox bohra upbringing.

Succession of the leadership is passed on to Maula Ali, and further to his successive generations. According to Bohra belief, we have a count till 21st Imam, and 21st Imam went into seclusion. This event occurred approximately in year 526 (Hijri) 1143 (Gregorian) [Please correct me if I m wrong]. It has been more than 800 years to 21st Imam gone into seclusion and since then there is no information or general awareness of actual identity of Imam in following years up to date. My queries are :

Why is information of successive Imam’s actual identity kept hidden for centuries ?

Sayedna Saheb (52nd Dai) is 101 years old, how old is Imam-uz-Zaman ?

Is 21st Imam Tayyeb still alive ? My question is weird, but it comes due to the preaching imparted to me, that; “21st Imam tayyeb would come out from seclusion on day of Qayamat to reveal himself.” (Is this theory true ? I was told this by a Muallim in Madrasa)

What kind of political / religious hostility or threat does Imam-uz-Zaman of today face, which is restricting him from coming out in open ?

Today bohra are freely moving around in the world, there is freedom to setup masjids, markaz, schools, and kothar runs a parallel government within a country. Daai of Imam is revered and bestowed with title of ambassador of peace and doctorates and considered diplomatic guest when travel to various countries, Kothar and Daawat leadership has influential contacts with political leadership. If Daai who is a subordinate appointed agent of Imam is respected and revered so much. Imam holds much more superior position.


Its is believed that, Imam exist in this world and only sayedna sahib knows about his whereabouts. It is also believed that when sayedna goes in the Qibla after maghrib namaz, curtains are drawn; it is said or believed that Imam-uz-Zaman comes to speak to him. I m confused and amused at this information or rumor ?


Is Imam-uz-zaman a mortal human or…. something / someone above human qualities of existence ?


Also what is the Name and Number of Imam-uz-Zaman of today times, like DB belief have known names upto 21st Imams and 53rd Dai ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There has been instance, where 3 Imams have gone into seclusion and successive generation of hidden Imam revealed themselves from seclusion.

ABDULLAH AL MASTUR 197 212 (Hijiri) 814 829 (Gregorian) SALAMIYA SYRIA
AHMED AL MASTUR 212 225 (Hijiri) 829 842 (Gregorian) SALAMIYA SYRIA
HUSSAIN AL MASTUR 225 268 (Hijiri) 842 885 (Gregorian) ASKAR SYRIA

Above mentioned information is taken from the book (Mullah on the Mainframe) and a particular thread from this forum. I do not claim authenticity of this information. Thus if I m wrong, my sincere apologies and I look forward to be corrected.

Considering Imam in past gone into seclusion, still there names are known and listed in history. Then what happened to those Imam’s lived and died after 21st Imam ?

Humsafar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#5

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:52 am

Progticide, why would you spend so much time and effort on a topic that is a non-issue as far as reformists are concened? Our concerns are more mundane: the lack of accountability and autonomy and the way our communty is being robbed blind by an illegitimate "royal family" and the way un-Islamic practices have developed around the cult of the Dai.
My personal opinion is that the Imam, if there is one, is languishing in the dungeons of Saifee Mahal. He will never see the light of day so long as the mafia clergy rule the roost. And isn't it ironic that the Imam identity and validity (if he chooses to come out or escape from the dungeon) will depend on the endorsement of the Dai. This makes the whole business highly suspect.

profastian
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#6

Unread post by profastian » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:57 am

Humsafar wrote:Progticide, why would you spend so much time and effort on a topic that is a non-issue as far as reformists are concened? Our concerns are more mundane: the lack of accountability and autonomy and the way our communty is being robbed blind by an illegitimate "royal family" and the way un-Islamic practices have developed around the cult of the Dai.
My personal opinion is that the Imam, if there is one, is languishing in the dungeons of Saifee Mahal. He will never see the light of day so long as the mafia clergy rule the roost. And isn't it ironic that the Imam identity and validity (if he chooses to come out or escape from the dungeon) will depend on the endorsement of the Dai. This makes the whole business highly suspect.
There goes the official position of reformists out of the windows.

Rationalist
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#7

Unread post by Rationalist » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:07 am

I being a reformist, do believe in Imam. He is there. And he is infallible. However the infallibility of dai is questionable. He can make mistakes, and as evidently seen he is making mistakes. We want him to repent for his mistakes and get back on sirate mustaqeem.

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#8

Unread post by SBM » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:08 am

A very sensible posting by Nalwala.
If I am not mistaken did not 51 st Dai testified that there is no such thing as hidden Imam and he is Ilahi Ul Ard if that is true then the whole concept when it comes to DB falls apart.

Rationalist
Posts: 26
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#9

Unread post by Rationalist » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:33 am

Dear progticide,

We are kind of stuck here. On one hand, we have narrations in DB texts that the only person who can identify the Imam is the Dai, as debated in the book Muntaza al-Akhbar. However, on the other hand, we see our present Dai and his system deviant from DB texts, hence disqualifying for the rank of Dai. Don't you think Imam is actually waiting for this mafia ruled cult to be gone? Who else could be a greater threat to Imam than the present Dai who can go to any extent to save his throne and luxuries? I suggest rather beating our head about questions related to Imam and Imamat, we focus on the wrong happening in front of our eyes. Just like Abdul Mutallib, who was unbothered about the security of Kaaba, because he had faith in Allah. He just asked for what was his, his camels. Lets do the same. leave issues related to Imam and Imamat to Allah and focus on the wrong being done with us; our family, our money.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#10

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:47 am

why would insecticide post a topic like this?

as everyone knows, incl. dawoodi abde bohra regressives, only the 'king' dai can vouch for the true imam, if at all that imam dares to raise his head and declare himself. now what if the king decides not to endorse him, fully realising his empire and his freeloading family would collapse and disappear into oblivion?

besides, what if there are several claimants to the imamship?

but this whole discussion is pointless and mischievious as the at the last stage of the sabaqs it is being revealed that the present syedna is the imam HIMSELF!

revertbohra
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:29 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#11

Unread post by revertbohra » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:23 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:why would insecticide post a topic like this?

as everyone knows, incl. dawoodi abde bohra regressives, only the 'king' dai can vouch for the true imam, if at all that imam dares to raise his head and declare himself. now what if the king decides not to endorse him, fully realising his empire and his freeloading family would collapse and disappear into oblivion?

besides, what if there are several claimants to the imamship?

but this whole discussion is pointless and mischievious as the at the last stage of the sabaqs it is being revealed that the present syedna is the imam HIMSELF!
why is this moron posting in green fonts? is he trying to confuse his posts with Adam's post?

what a loser he is,cant even select an independent stand or fonts for him self.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#12

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

reverse bohra,

who is adam? is he your slave master?

does adam have a monopoly on the color green on this forum or anywhere else? and what would a moron like you know about an "independent stand", when you cant even stand and have to be constantly in reverse sajda to your dai?? :lol:

Muslim First
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#13

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:44 pm

Bohras are about 1M

do you think it will make any difference to remaining Umaa who do not believe in Imam or have belief in different Imam?

JC
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#14

Unread post by JC » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:56 pm

The extreme abdes like reverse bohra and adam who presumably have attended the 100% sabaks with 100% attendance could not ask a simple question - if this DAI is IMAM himself, what is stopping himself from declaring this?? What Muslayhat is there?? Why to befool and keep abdes waiting?? Is it that he will not be able to withstand the questions then coming from all the quarters leave aside the progressives??

What are signs of a TRUE DAI or a TRUE IMAM???

The conclusion is: There is NO IMAM and NONE is coming, Long Live the Corrupt Dai .........!!!!!!!!

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#15

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:48 pm

since syedna himself cannot declare his own self as imam, most probably, and this is my firm belief, on his passing, muffy - the great qabr whisperer - will proclaim that 'hamara dai, je asal ma hamara imam tha, yeh jannat thi paigham moklave chhe ane farmave chhe, "ke ai mara momeeno. huj tamaro imam uz zaman tho, hu e tamara saghla na wastey panjatan paak paase ghani dua kidhi chhe, tamara saghlana salaam ataa kidha chhe, tame badha mara farzando jannat ma aala makaam no darajjo hasil karso, tamara vastey hur and farishta saghla intezaam kare chhe. intezaar kare chhe, bas tame mara mansoos ane tamara mola muffadal par imam samjhine jaan ane maal nichawar kari dejo. ya hussain! have aaj pachi tamo momeneen daur al kashf ma cho, imam par thi parda uthi gaya chhe, tamara imam tamara aiyn na saamne jalwa afroz chhe, tamo saghla khush rehjo ane tamara bawa shafiq ne yaad kari lejo, ya hussain!".

Fateh
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#16

Unread post by Fateh » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:33 am

Humsafar wrote:Progticide, why would you spend so much time and effort on a topic that is a non-issue as far as reformists are concened? Our concerns are more mundane: the lack of accountability and autonomy and the way our communty is being robbed blind by an illegitimate "royal family" and the way un-Islamic practices have developed around the cult of the Dai.
My personal opinion is that the Imam, if there is one, is languishing in the dungeons of Saifee Mahal. He will never see the light of day so long as the mafia clergy rule the roost. And isn't it ironic that the Imam identity and validity (if he chooses to come out or escape from the dungeon) will depend on the endorsement of the Dai. This makes the whole business highly suspect.
Slam bhai,Only due to all these reasons you mention ,this is the only mater for which we all have to spend our whole life.Why we are spending our time to abuse these corrupted clergy mass ,they are lier & they use their knowledge for earning materialistic benefits instead of guide the people who follow them.

revertbohra
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#17

Unread post by revertbohra » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:43 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:reverse bohra,

who is adam? is he your slave master?

does adam have a monopoly on the color green on this forum or anywhere else? and what would a moron like you know about an "independent stand", when you cant even stand and have to be constantly in reverse sajda to your dai?? :lol:
hey monkey face,

atleast select a color for urself, or will u beg for every thing from bohras?

progticide
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#18

Unread post by progticide » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:05 am

Even after all the request and appeals that I made at the beginning of this topic, the whole discussion has fallen apart thanks to the intellects from the progressive team who chose to find fault with the mainstream DB Dai and establishment rather than answer what was required from them.

Whether the Syedna (TUS) is infallible or not, true Dai-e-Mutlaq or not, how many other Dais are currently there or not was not the topic of discussion. And I am quite sure that many participants did not even bother to read my subject matter completely. They just jumped on the topic to counter the last argument in the line without realising that they were only making a fool of themselves.

The mainstream DBs believe in Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS) as the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time and he is infallible and that is final. We have not asked for progressive opinion on his bonafides and therefore there was no need for the arguments posted above. All the above comments have no relevance to the topic that I started in this thread.

People who want to play musical chairs may visit their respective mosques and play the game with their maulvis if they permit them to do so. Please excuse this thread.

And People who find this amusement interesting and entertaining may might as well join them in the game. You too please excuse this thread.

The absence of any rational submission from the progressive team, not even a mere attempt to answer the questions stated above, only suggest that my above raised queries were genuine and pertinent to the subject of discussion.

People like Porus, Doctor Mubarak, Insaf who are so entusiastic to jump on every thread to show their knowledge of Tawil and Quranic verses, have chosen to stay away from commenting on the questions I have raised above simply bcoz they do not seem to have any substantial and authoritative basis to submit a response that would be unanimously accepted by all the progressives.

Hussain KSA, why this silence? Have I asked something which is fanciful or imaginative? Dont you agree that either during our own lifetime or after we have passed away that this event is surely going to take place? And you or the generation that comes after you would be faced with this dilemma? What guidance are you leaving behind for them so that they would not get lost?

Whether it is Daudis, Sulaimanis, Alavis, Isna Asharis, or even the thinly populated Atba-e-Malak, they all have some established process/mechanism in anticipation of this event to take place sometime in future. We are not discussing who is correct or wrong, or which of these sects would prevail eventually. The point is all these sects of Shias have something in place. What about the progressives?

In short, the progressives do not have any answer to the above set of questions and therefore they have resorted to the same practice of derailing the topic of discussion by raising questions on the mainstream DB's Dai-e-mutlaq, his establishment and other non-issues.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:07 am

let me try this a different way.

1. Firstly, how would the progressives come to know that the Imam is about to come out of his seclusion? Who would inform them of this ?
This was answered earlier by some people who are capable of independent thinking unlike abde idiots. Why would anyone need to inform you of the arrival of the Imam? If he is the true Imam, then he will provide the information and the proof all by himself. He doesn't need a Dai. If he needs a Dai to validate his identity, then he is not the true Imam and can be safely rejected.

Remember, the Imam is supposed to be appointed by Allah and not by the Dai.

2. Since, the Progressives do not believe in the authority and infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq of mainstream DBs, are they going to accept the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word on this?
Read above.

3. If not, what is the mechanism that the progressives have laid down for this purpose?
Read above.

4. Is the Central Board of progressives assigned with this task?
Read above

5. If yes, are all progressives united on this point?
Read above

6. If the Central Board of progressives is assigned with this task what is their qualification to undertake such a task? Are the progressives certain about the infallibility of their Central Board?
Read above

7. How would the progressives know who is the rightful Imam if there are multiple claimants to the title at one time? Such events have happened in the past where there have been multiple claimants to Imamat at the same time.
Read above.

Humsafar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#20

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:39 am

We will know he is a true Imam when he gets rid of the illegitimate "royal family" and the mafia clergy. We will know he is a true Imam when he commands us not to do sajda to a human and not to empty our pockets for parasitic priests, We will know he is a true Imam when he allows us to be human again, lifts the yoke of slavery, restores our freedom and dignity, revives our true heritage and renews our faith in a more responsible and dignified Dawat.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:13 am

nulwala,

One thing I know for sure is that any person that this Dai of yours points to, will not be the Imam. He will be the Dai's stooge chosen to loot abde idiots even more. Besides, you should read more carefully before putting your foot in your mouth. I said the Imam himself will provide the information and the proof.
Last edited by anajmi on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

SBM
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#22

Unread post by SBM » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:15 am

This is a non-issue for the Mainstream DBs since we believe in the infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq.The Dai-e-Mutlaq being the absolute and rightly appointed guide by the Imam during seclusion of the Imam, he is assigned with this task for the community. And the mainstream DBs have nothing to be concerned about on this matter. And the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word would be final on the matter. I would invite Adam & Profastian to correct me on the above in case of any discrepancy.
Progticide you mentioned that you have no problem accepting the word of Dai E Mutlaq and I asked you a simple question if 51st Dai denied the existance of any Hidden Imam then why did not you accept his words
May be Adam who was privilaged to attend Sabaks by 51st Dai can shed some light on this,

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:17 am

Humsafar,

As soon as you became a progressive officially, you no longer have to deal with the mafia clergy, I do not think progressives do sajda to the Dai and they are free of the parasitic royal family. They didn't need an Imam for that. They did it all by themselves. Imam is needed more by the Dai than anyone else, to continue his blood sucking.

Humsafar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#24

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:45 am

anajmi, you're correct, progressive don't need an Imam but abdes certainly do because they won't listen to us. Hopefully they will listen to the Imam. Or will they? :)

humanbeing
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#25

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:47 am

My Post Removed by me

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:11 am

Dozens of people have already appeared and claimed to be Imams. Aga Khan is an Imam. Doctor is an Imam. If more than 1 Imam comes, we will have DB1, DB2 and other sects each following a different Imam. But if there is a true Imam, then he will be able to destroy the pretenders. So either way, you do not have to worry. If all Imams survive, then they are all pretenders. If more than 1 Dai survives, then they are all pretenders.

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#27

Unread post by porus » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:14 am

Let us set aside all the Bohra metaphysics in which Imams have been in kashf and satr multiple times with multiple Qiyamats and so on behind which some very un-educated abdes hide on this forum.

There actually is a precedent for what might happen when Imam makes an appearance. Imam Mahdi made an appearance in Ifriqiya, present day Tunisia, following the 'hidden' Imamat of 3 mastur Imams. For nearly two centuries during their satr, Imams and their Dais had been working secretly to bring about the opportunity for re-appearance of the Imam to re-establish the rule of Ahl-e-bayt over the entire Muslim world (the mission). During that period, they established armies and conducted their mission in secret. All the while, there had been authorities exercised by rival Caliphates. which were targets for removal.

Looking at the current Daawat, it can safely be said that the 'mission' is at a standstill. Daawat is not working in secret unless of course you consider 'secrecy of ilm'. There is no visible preparation for any armed conflict to regain power. There is no authority which needs to be targeted for that purpose.

So, it can be inferred that Imam has abandoned this Daawat and left it to its own devices. May be his real 'Dais and armies' are working in secret, just like during the era of his predecessors, the Mastur Imams, to re-establish Imamat.

So we have two Daawats, the zahir one with all its pomp and corruption in which Imam has lost interest and the Batin one, which is the true Daawat operating behind the scenes in secret.

Just as Imam Mahdi made a forceful appearance in Ifriqiya long ago, the current Imam will similarly make an appearance and will establish his claim on the basis of his own personal authority. He will not need any Dai to make people recognize him.

(On the last point, if the Imam himself cannot offer evidence for his own authority, the person with an equal or higher authority, a Prophet, must do it for him. This was the case with Yahya and Isa as well as with Muhammad and Ali).

Humsafar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#28

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:07 pm

porus wrote:So we have two Daawats, the zahir one with all its pomp and corruption in which Imam has lost interest and the Batin one, which is the true Daawat operating behind the scenes in secret .
Porus, trust you spill the beans. Reformists are the vanguard of this Batini dawat. :D

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#29

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:53 pm

so if the true imam reveals himself and offers proof of his authority and also declares that its only the progressive dawoodi bohras who are his real followers in terms of beliefs, behaviour and observance of deen, then..

will the regressives abandon their so-called dai ul mutlaq and his parasitic 'royal family' and join the ranks of the reformists? obviously then they will no longer be termed as anything but 'true dawoodi bohras'.

any regressives care to comment? even laanats will do, with one proviso of course. if you do indulge in abuse, the imam will disqualify you as his follower and refuse to let you join up with the reformists.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#30

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:32 pm

@ progticide,

Before going further with this debate would you please verify the fact that bohras are told that Imam Tayyab who went into seclusion will himself appear at an appropriate time as this is exactly what even I have heard from some bohra amils. If that is the case then as per bohra beliefs the dai will only have to identify the real Imam Tayyab.