The True Imam - How would you verify?

[humanbeing]

BoooM : Welcome Back , long time no See

[Conscíous]

Hey Humanbeing.
Thanks for the well come and it's good to see you still here.. Yeah, it's been a while.. I've been very busy and it was nice to take a break from all this once in a while

[ghulam muhammed]

Mahdi’ism conference to be held in Qom

The general manager of the Culture and Islamic Guidance of Qom Province announce that the first nationwide conference of Mahdi’ism will be held in the province on June 28, 2012.

(Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - In a press conference, Esmaeil Taba marked the recurring focus on issues related to the doom’s day and Mahdi’ism on the cinema, books and software programs and said, “The highest research capacity for issues about Mahdi’ism are placed in Qom and the city has the greatest potential to become the centre of such studies both in national and international levels.

He went on to say that the first biennial conference for praising the best publications on Mahdi’ism will be held this year (on June 28, 2012) in the presence of representatives from institutes working on Mahdi’ism with support from the culture department of the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance.

As he said the panel of judges of the conference screened all the works published in the past 10 years on the subject. The screenings were done in two phases and the select works will be honoured in the ceremony.

He further added that publishers, translators and researchers of books and theses on Mahdi’ism will be honoured in the conference as well.

“Two select publishers and two praiseworthy publishers will be lauded during the conference. One select translation and three praiseworthy works will also be honoured in the conference.”

He went on to say the theses on the select Mahdi’ism will also be praised during the conference.

Furthermore, among general publications, three works will be honoured as select works and 10 others will be praised.

He added that the conference will begin with a message from the Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance, Mohammad Husseini.

Ayatollah Ostadi and Bahman Dorri, Cultural Deputy of Guidance Ministry, will be the keynote speakers of the conference. Ayatollah Moghtadaei will be the scientific secretary of the conference.

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&Id=325466

[progticide]

GM,
What do you think? This thread inspired the Iranians.

ADMIN,
What say? This thread would qualify as an entry?

There are a lot of suggestions on this thread including the spectacular LITMUS Test to verify the genuineness of the Imam. Iranians would jump out of their seats over this idea.

[anajmi]

I apologize to members of this forum for bringing this thread back from the dead but I came across this ayah of the Quran that is absolutely relevant over here. They say that every time you read the Quran, you learn something more and how true it is Subhanallah. While reading the Quran yesterday I came across this ayah -

وَمِن قَبْلِهِ كِتَابُ مُوسَى إِمَامًا وَرَحْمَةً وَهَذَا كِتَابٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّسَانًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّيُنذِرَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُحْسِنِينَ

46:12 And yet, before this there was the revelation of Moses, a guide and a [sign of God’s] grace; and this [Qur’an] is a divine writ confirming the truth [of the Torah] in the Arabic tongue, to warn those who are bent on evildoing, and [to bring] a glad tiding to the doers of good:

We kept arguing about whether the Imam is a book or a person in Surah Yasin and this ayah of the Quran makes it clear. People say that the Quran makes clear its own ayah. The best way to understand the Quran is the Quran itself.

In this ayah in Surah Ahkaf (46:12) Allah is referring to the book given to Musa as both an Imam and Rehmat.

[Adam]

Anajmi.
You may have just come across the meaning of this Ayat, but we've known it all along

Your interpretation shows your lack of knowledge on the Arabic language.
The word "Imam" isn't directly translated as book.
The word Imam appears with a Double NASB Tanween in the as حالي (ask your mosque Imam since this might go over your head). Ie: The Kitab, which is like/as an Imam, and as Rehmat (you follow the Book like you follow an Imam.)

The Tafseers confirm this, quoting Zamakshari, (your Wahabi Tafseers also confirm this):
ومن قبله كتاب موسى، على: وآتينا الذين قبله التوراة. ومعنى { إِمَاماً }: قدوة يؤتم به في دين الله وشرائعه، كما يؤتم بالإمام { وَرَحْمَةً } لمن آمن به وعمل بما فيه

Imam = Someone you follow - Leader.

[anajmi]

A book is like an Imam and Rehmat. So you can follow a book like you can follow an Imam, but the question is..... can you write everything down in an Imam like you can in a book???

By the way, the translation is from Asad, and I like his translations better than both you and porus put together!!

The point its that the Imam and Rehmat in this ayah refers to the book of Musa (as). And even you, cannot deny that!! Infact, you have already agreed to that.

[anajmi]

By the way, if I go and ask about this double nasb TANWEEN to the Imam of my mosque what do you think he is going to say? Is he going to start looking for the hidden Imam in whom Allah has captured everything?

[Adam]

The Tafseer is not my own, its from Zamakhshari who's one of the most popular Sunni Mufassirs.
There's no excuse for ignorance. And there isn't any point in discussing with you since you don't understand Arabic.
Imam - Person to follow - Leader

سلاما

[Muslim First]

Zamakhshari

He is best known for Al-Kashshaaf, a seminal commentary on the Qur'an. The commentary is famous for its deep linguistic analysis of the verses, however has been criticised for the inclusion of Mu'tazilite philosophical views.

[Muslim First]

Word by word translation of 46:12
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 6&verse=12

Also

http://www.allahsquran.com/learn/#s46d7q1t0p1

[Rookie]

Zamakhshari

He is best known for Al-Kashshaaf, a seminal commentary on the Qur'an. The commentary is famous for its deep linguistic analysis of the verses, however has been criticised for the inclusion of Mu'tazilite philosophical views.

any true translation of quraan will have islamili muztaili philosophical view, coz thats the truee form of ISLAM and reality.

[anajmi]

Adam,

And there isn't any point in discussing with you since you don't understand Arabic.

You should've realized this before posting an Arabic tafseer for someone who doesn't know Arabic. Are you that big of a fool? I have no idea what the Tafseer is saying. I am absolutely sure about what the ayah is saying. Will you deny the ayah and accept the tafseer? Well, that is nothing new for people like you is it?

What is the ayah saying? Which human leader is the ayah referring to? It is not referring to a human leader. It is referring to the book of Musa as an Imam and Rehmat. And no one can deny this accept an idol worshipper cause an idol worshipper has already denied the Quran.

Now, we have established that the Allah does refer to a book as an Imam in the Quran because a book from Allah is to be followed like an Imam. Now, who is the foremost Imam amongst the Muslims? Ofcourse it is the Quran.

Let us say that there is a human Imam and there is the Quran Imam. If there is a difference between the two Imams, which one are you required to follow? Ofcourse the Quran Imam. The Quran Imam is the primary Imam. This lays to waste Adam and his Imam both!!

[Muslim First]

For list of Imam used in Qur'an see
The Quran Challenge, Part III:
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... nge-3.html

[Hanif]

Brother MF,

You seem to love this man's links. He states: The other seven times the Quran mentions the word “imam”, it actually does refer to a person and thus translates to “leader.” However, none of these eight instances refer to the Infallible Imam of the Shia.


So now you have your answer to your "forever" question "Where are the references to Imam in Qur'an". I do not have to provide them because you will treat it as Shia fiction. Please ask your Master to provide the seven places in the Qur'an the word Imam is mentioned and then we can debate further.

[progticide]

deleted

[Muslim First]

So now you have your answer to your "forever" question "Where are the references to Imam in Qur'an". I do not have to provide them because you will treat it as Shia fiction. Please ask your Master to provide the seven places in the Qur'an the word Imam is mentioned and then we can debate further.

Beauty of what Phoenix calls "Basteredized Islam" is that that they have no master except Allah SWT. I am getting sick and tired of debating with you since your language.

Read same link and all 12 mention of imam is listed.

If Imamat was so important then why was it mentioned in Qur'an? Like say "after you o Prophet there will be 12,23,49 Zahir,Gaib,hiding etc imams from your progeny"

Imam is Shia fiction and your imam Ali is Allah for you.

[Hanif]

MF, did you read your post before posting? It makes no sense. Can you please re-read it and make sense.

Phoenix did not mention anything. It is Hanif, myself who is questioning.

I do not like debating with you either but you keep injecting your hatred against all faiths except your own. Then when we respond to you, you go off on a tangent.

I am not looking for the 12 Imams. Please re-read my post. As regards the 12 Imams, your teacher is falsely accusing the twelvers of espousing a belief that 12 Imams are mentiioned in the Qur'an. Twelvers are quoting ahadith in reference to this subject Not the Qur'an.

You are taking lessons from a very dangerous and idiotic teacher.

I am asking you to provide the 7 places in the Qur'an where Imam is mentioned as a leader.

Your teacher says so. I am not saying that. If you can't provide then ask your teacher. And if you cannot get in touch with him, then please stop askingwhere in the Qur'an Imam as a leader is mentioned. Next time you question, I will come back and ask you to go back to your teacher, since what I say, is a Shia fiction to you.

Thanks brother. sorry for the inconvenience.

[Muslim First]

brother. sorry for the inconvenience

No problem
I always help blinds and read for them

12 places imam (singular or plural)

Imam = road
1.  Quran, 15:79:

Imam = book
 2. Quran, 46:12
3.  Quran, 11:17
4. Quran, 36:12
5.Quran, 17:71-72

Evil Leaders
6.  Quran, 9:12: 
7. Quran  28:41

Israelites
8. Quran, 32:23-25
9. Quran 28:4-5

Leaders of the Pious
10.  Quran, 2:124:
11.  Quran, 21:72-73

Now the question is: is the word “imam” being used to denote a leader in the generic sense, or are we referring to the Infallible Imams of the Shia? The Shia will adamantly claim that this refers to their Infallible Imams, and yet they will conveniently ignore the following verse in the Quran which also uses the word “imam” in a similar context:

12. Quran, 25:71-74: “And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion; Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honorable (avoidance); Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind; Those who say: ‘Our Lord, grant us the coolness of our eyes in our wives and children, and make us leaders (imams) of the pious.’”

[porus]

Dear brother Muslim First,

Stop quoting from the Quran. As you yourself have agreed that no one was around, let alone the whole Muslim Umma, when Muhammad claimed to have received the Quran as a revelation. We also know that you believe, unlike the Shia, that Muhammad was a fallible human prone to making mistakes.

We also know that you believe that Muhammad mysteriously became infallible when he was reporting the Quran. However, tell us where do you find in the Quran that Prophet was infallible only when he received the Quran?

If you say that all Mulsims, ignoring the Shia, say that Quran is God's word, that is like saying, "All Hindus say that Brahma came out of Vishnu's navel and he was ordered by Vishnu to create the world." Hence the world was created by Brahma. You agree that that is a Hindu fiction, no?

Well, prove that the Quran is not a Shia fiction along with all the Sunni Hadith.

By the way, tell me where in the Quran, does it say that you must pray 3 rakaats for Maghrib and where does it say in the Quran that the faraaid should be lead by and Imam, and where does it state in the Quran that taraweeh should be led by an Imam? Try not to tell me that some people like Abdul Wahhab witnessed Prophet either doing that or instructing about that. Remember, according to you, no Umma was present when he did and said all that. And the Prophet was as fallible as me according to you and your Wahhabi masters.

Unless you have good answers for these questions, I suggest that you stop reading the Quran and stop quoting from it.

[Muslim First]

By the way, tell me where in the Quran, does it say that you must pray 3 rakaats for Maghrib and where does it say in the Quran that the faraaid should be lead by and Imam, and where does it state in the Quran that taraweeh should be led by an Imam? Try not to tell me that some people like Abdul Wahhab witnessed Prophet either doing that or instructing about that. Remember, according to you, no Umma was present when he did and said all that. And the Prophet was as fallible as me according to you and your Wahhabi masters.

Question One: Where is the doctrine of IMAMAT in Quran ?

This is a very sound question. Quran  is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran  and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It's importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran  have given us this doctrine?

Ask Shia to ONLY give you the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this and you will see how helpless the arguments will be.

Now when you ask this from a Shia you receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you will receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).

Here are the most popular answers that you get:

There are also no verses in Quran  to tell us how to pray. We learn some of our duties from Hadeeth not Quran .

There are certain verses but you need to look at Hadeeth to understand their true meaning cause we are advised to learn Quran  from the Prophet and Hadeeth is his teachings.

Long and complicated analysis of certain verses of Quran  to prove that even without the help of Hadeeth, they are proving Imaamat.

There are no mention of the name of our Prophet in Bible but still Christians need to believe in the Prophet.

The verses of Quran  are usually general and it is not the style of Quran  to name people (i.e. Imaams)

Quran  says "follow the Prophet". There are Hadeeth from the Prophet that prove the doctrine of Imaamat and this should be enough for a Muslim if he wants to follow the Prophet.

There are not explicit verses because if they were, Quran  was in danger of fabrication

Finally among the classic scholars of Shia at the old times there were some of them who hold that Quran  is changed by Sahabah and that certain verses are removed from it.

Where in Quran  it is said that Muslims should choose a khalifah by themselves?

Show us the names of the prophets between ... and ... in Quran  if you think that every thing should be in Quran .

It is a test that's why it is not mentioned in Quran 

Arguments that use few verses of Quran  out of the context

Sunnis believe in Mahdi while he is not mentioned in Quran 

Imaamat is not the fundamental belief of 12ers, the appointment of Ali is the fundamental of belief.

I have posted this link many times but we keep going in circles.

HOW TO APPROACH THE SHIA BROTHERS/SISTERS -
A STRAIGHT FORWARD LOGIC INSTEAD OF A NEVER ENDING DEBATE
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how ... rother.htm

[porus]

Dear brother Muslim First,

You must first demonstrate that Quran is the word of God and that Muhammad is God's messenger, infallible only while delivering the Quran? Who can verify Muhammad's claims especially as no one was around when he was getting revelations?

If you cannot do that, then we will consider that you have malicious intent against the Shia.

[Peace]

This is Shia & Sunni point of view on Imamat. 4th Part is very important, very logical answer.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=7354

[Muslim First]

Dear brother Muslim First,

You must first demonstrate that Quran is the word of God and that Muhammad is God's messenger, infallible only while delivering the Quran? Who can verify Muhammad's claims especially as no one was around when he was getting revelations?

If you cannot do that, then we will consider that you have malicious intent against the Shia.
Pure BS

Prophet Muhammad was a prophet who acted first and foremost under the guidance of divine revelation. Despite this, it is also true that there are some verses in the Quran that emphasize his human features as well as those indicating he might make mistakes on some issues. In addition, he made decisions based on his own judgment and was wrong (at least was not able to choose the better option) in some of these decisions. As such, it is clear that not all of his sayings and practices were a product of divine revelation. Islamic scholars and jurists have discussed this matter extensively, particularly in books on the Methodology of Islamic jurisprudence. The majority of the ulema (religious scholars) have argued with sound evidence that Prophet Muhammad, like any other Muslim scholar, had the authority of ijtihad and occasionally he actually used it within the limits of his human capacity..
Read more
THE SCOPE OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD’S IJTIHAD
http://forums.understanding-islam.com/s ... 2S-IJTIHAD

[Hanif]

brother. sorry for the inconvenience

No problem
I always help blinds and read for them

12 places imam (singular or plural)

Imam = road
1.  Quran, 15:79:

Imam = book
 2. Quran, 46:12
3.  Quran, 11:17
4. Quran, 36:12
5.Quran, 17:71-72

Evil Leaders
6.  Quran, 9:12: 
7. Quran  28:41

Israelites
8. Quran, 32:23-25
9. Quran 28:4-5

Leaders of the Pious
10.  Quran, 2:124:
11.  Quran, 21:72-73

Now the question is: is the word “imam” being used to denote a leader in the generic sense, or are we referring to the Infallible Imams of the Shia? The Shia will adamantly claim that this refers to their Infallible Imams, and yet they will conveniently ignore the following verse in the Quran which also uses the word “imam” in a similar context:

12. Quran, 25:71-74: “And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion; Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honorable (avoidance); Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind; Those who say: ‘Our Lord, grant us the coolness of our eyes in our wives and children, and make us leaders (imams) of the pious.’”

What is imam to you in generic sense? I can respond better if I know what is imam to you in generic sense, if it is not referred to the infallible Imam?

Here is the next ayah, which I think you FORGOT to add on: Those are the ones who will be rewarded the highest place in heaven, because of therir patient constancy! There in shall they be met with salutations and peace.....

Your teacher says there are seven ayahs in which Imam as a leader is stated. You have provided two with your own insinuations, what happened to the other five?

By the way do you now agree in the two instances Imams are mentioned as leaders and not as Books?

Good Job MF. Get the other five.

[porus]

Prophet Muhammad was a prophet who acted first and foremost under the guidance of divine revelation. Despite this, it is also true that there are some verses in the Quran that emphasize his human features as well as those indicating he might make mistakes on some issues. In addition, he made decisions based on his own judgment and was wrong (at least was not able to choose the better option) in some of these decisions. As such, it is clear that not all of his sayings and practices were a product of divine revelation. Islamic scholars and jurists have discussed this matter extensively, particularly in books on the Methodology of Islamic jurisprudence. The majority of the ulema (religious scholars) have argued with sound evidence that Prophet Muhammad, like any other Muslim scholar, had the authority of ijtihad and occasionally he actually used it within the limits of his human capacity..
Read more
THE SCOPE OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD’S IJTIHAD
http://forums.understanding-islam.com/s ... 2S-IJTIHAD

Dear brother Muslim First,

Is that your opinion too? Now read what I wrote before.

Stop quoting from the Quran. As you yourself have agreed that no one was around, let alone the whole Muslim Umma, when Muhammad claimed to have received the Quran as a revelation. We also know that you believe, unlike the Shia, that Muhammad was a fallible human prone to making mistakes.

We also know that you believe that Muhammad mysteriously became infallible when he was reporting the Quran. However, tell us where do you find in the Quran that Prophet was infallible only when he received the Quran?

In other words, you repeated what I wrote was your view. To conclude, you do not accept Muhammad on his own authority but depend on Sunni scholars to confirm what is Quran and what it is not. I suspected that.

So you expect us to believe that your scholars are right and that they, and not Muhammad, have confirmed for you the authenticity of the Quran. So your scholars are the true messengers of God and Muhammad had to be confirmed by them. Wah, Bhai, Wah!

Now that your scholars, and not Muhammad, have said that the Quran is the word of God, you should change your Kalima to read "La ilah illa Allah, al-Ulama rusul (رسل) ul-llah. [rusul is plural of rasool].

By the way let us assume that you accept your scholars as messengers of God. In that case, how do you account for the ayat of tatheer (33:33) which states that Muhammad is infallible?

Since you do not accept Muhammad's authority on all matters, unlike the Shia, we are justified in saying that you do not believe in the Muslim kalima which states that "La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasool ul-llah".

Hence you are not a Muslim and must stop using the Quran for your non-Muslim tabligh.

[porus]

We can now lump our dear brother Muslim First with the Dai-worshipper, Progticide, who started this thread by asking how do you verify the Imam?

We said, "Imam will verify himself". He said, my Dai will verify the Imam thus elevating the Dai over the Imam.

Similarly, Muslim First elevates his Ulama above the Prophet.

[progticide]

All non-DBs on this forum,
Look at your pathetic state of affairs....at times you quarrel on the meaning of verses of Holy Quran....at times you quarrel on the infallibility of the Prophet (SAWW).....at times you quarrel on the infallibility of the Panjatan Pak (AS)....at times you quarrel on the successor to the Prophet (SAWW) and remainder of the time you quarrel on the existence/need/authority of the Imam from the progeny of Maula Ali and Maulatena Fatema.....and yet when all this does not satiate your hunger for belligerence you begin to aim your hatred to the DBs and DB Dai-e-Mutlaq and our way of life.

The only reason for your irrational and despicable actions is your digression from the true faith....the true path of Islam....and your enmity toward the only true guide in today's world, the only true representative of the Imam of the time, with absolute authority and infallibility, the Dai-e-Mutlaq Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS).

But your hatred and enmity is so profound that it has overpowered your senses of rationality and objective reasoning....you continue to tread on rough paths leading nowhere....trying to show direction to other lost souls when you yourself are directionless and clueless as to where you are headed.....and then every now and then you find your co-followers drifting away from you on further rough paths invented by them and you keep shouting to each other while actually all of you are moving in wrong direction. And the terms you have coined to describe your directionless journey is "Progress" and "Reform". How about calling for a round of applause on this great achievement of yours?

[mnoorani]

@ Progticide,
Look at our state of affairs. Everyone is talking about Surat. A mumin is beaten up by goondas, An Amil utters baddua on a fasting mumin because of unreasonable vaajebaat. A mosque is closed for two days in Ramadaan ! 5 ziyafats a day in London when fellow mumins in Mumbra, Dharavi, Ahmedabad and many other places are living in poverty. Sharjah people are made to pay the fine due to food poisoning and no body is helping the sick . The Laanati Mudar is still a king.
If all this is done during the holiest of months, I wonder what goes on unreported during the rest of the year.

Achamba ni vaat nathi
aa to dawat ni reet che
Ramzaan bhi muqaddas nathi
yahaan to maazun bhi pitaai che

[anajmi]

By the way let us assume that you accept your scholars as messengers of God. In that case, how do you account for the ayat of tatheer (33:33) which states that Muhammad is infallible?

Actually, 33:33 says nothing of that sort. That is an individual interpretation which is erroneous. The Arabic word for "infallible" is masoom and that is not used in the ayah to describe the prophet (saw). porus has been corrected dozens of times, but like a parrot he keeps repeating the same thing over and over again. If 33:33 means becoming infallible, then we all become infallible every time we do wudhu as per 5:6. Then that would mean that the Ulema also become infallible when in wudhu!!

It is amazing how educated people fall into this trap. Most people that have converted to Islam during the last 1400 years have done so without having ever spoken to the prophet (saw) and they didn't convert to Islam because of an incorrect interpretation of 33:33!! Imagine if one had to first believe in the infallibility of the prophet (saw) in order to believe in the Quran to be the word of Allah. How would one do that? Why would one believe that the prophet is infallible? We have already established that there are no physical manifestations of this infallibility in any of the infallibles!!

How do we know that the Quran is the word of God? Because the prophet says so and he is infallible. And how do know that the prophet is infallible? Because the Quran says so!

So which comes first? The chicken or the egg?

The prophet (saw) was asked to deliver the message and he did so in the best possible manner. He did it by quoting it word for word as he heard from Jibraeel and he did it by living as per its commands. People convert to Islam to gain more taqwa because of the message of the Quran and not because people think that the prophet is infallible. If the infallibility of the prophet was the main requirement then Allah wouldn't say in the Quran that the turning of the hearts of people in only in His hands and the best that the prophet (saw) can hope to do is just deliver the message.

Every ayah of the Quran is a treasure. Some have become muslims due to one ayah of the Quran and some have become muslims due to some other ayah of the Quran.

You should try to get out of this web of idol worship that you have weaved for yourselves around these infallibles!!

It is the message of the Quran and the deeds of the prophet that make Islam and not the fictional infallibility of the prophet (saw)!!