The True Imam - How would you verify?

[canadian]

Adam bhaisaheb wrote' "The Proggies are a confused bunch".

I'd rather be in a confused bunch than with a bunch of slaves.

[Humsafar]

Adam, you and abdes like you are not confused because you all have become wilfully blind and have closed your minds. Confusion is a quality which only thinking and questioning minds can afford. We are confused because:
we cannot reconcile the supposed infallibility of the Dai with his errors which are many and well-documented.
we cannot reconcile the supposed spirituality of the Dai with his love for material things and his rich and extravagant lifestyle.
we cannot reconcile his love for his people with the poverty and misery of his people.
we cannot reconcile the fact that he and his family live in obscene unearned luxury while many Bohra live hand-to-mouth.
we cannot reconcile the supposed honesty and integrity of the Dai with the rampant corruption of his Dawat.
we cannot reconcile the fact that he has one set of rules (e.g. no interest) for Bohras and another for his family (where everything goes).
we cannot reconcile the fact that the Mansoos continues to enjoy illegitimate ziayafats (and obscene sums of money) while Bohras are being killed and maimed (Karachi).
we cannot reconcile the actions of the Dai and his Dawat with the text and intent of DB text which he is supposed to exemplify.

The list goes on... but you get the drift.
You see our confusion is valid, and you and your cohorts have failed to reconciles these contradictions. All you do is dance around the issues. You cannot justify the actions of the Dawat (which are evil, unIslamic and corrupt) with the intent of the many DB books you name and quote.
Our confusion is not that he is our Dai. Our confusion is that why our Dai is not acting and behaving the way our books tell him to.
You and abdes are not confused because you have lost the ability to see and think.

[Al Zulfiqar]

have you ever heard of single-celled amoebas with no brains being confused?

[seeker110]

Brother Adam it must be hard selling over priced damaged goods, keep trying.If you cant find a sucker maybe you should look in the mirror.

[zinger]

@ Human Being - Be sure to stand first in line when the Imam appears (assuming aap tab tak zinda hain) and ask Him for yourself, His reasons for staying in hiding. Bohra belief is that the Imam is in seclusion and the Dai represents Him. If you have a problem accepting that, you have the option of leaving this sub sect of Islam and joining the one that you think is true. .

I m not debating which sub sect / sect is true or not that I m chasing to join as you are suggesting, I m just asking questions like many other commoners. I would agree to any rule and belief which is simple and honest to understand. Imam-in-hiding trumpet is well known final escape for kothar and its leadership to loot commoner silly.

It is far more believable / logical and practical to understand why did Mousa (SAW) or Imams went into hiding was for obvious reason to be protected and organize against imminent threat to life & ideaology. After which they duly returned / appeared to continue their mission ordered by Allah. Complexities of historical events are conveniently twisted to suit present agendas of priestly class, which is greed for power and wealth.

This forum is for questioning and open minded debates, if you find the questions and answers and expression of thought disturbing or problematic, you have a grand option to leave this forum, without any threat to you or relatives, which is unlikely in kothar controlled bohra community.

Friend Human Being,

i take back my words about you leaving the community because you have doubts about one of the basic beliefs.

I am no one to say kaun rahega, kaun jaaega.. You have doubts and i hope that ek din, aapko aapke sawaalon ka jawaab mil jaayega

I think this conversation is getting into territory of personal attacks and im sure no one is interested in that.

Apologies for my harsh words.

[humanbeing]

How old is DBs existence? It should be rephrased as " How old is Dawat's existence?"

What is the meaning of word daawat. In my knowledge it means Invitation ? do you have other explanations ?
Frankly I can accept any philosophy / ideology / rules which are aligned to common sense, natural justice, universally acceptable.

Answer: Dawat of the Imam on Earth has existed from the begining of the world, from the first person on earth. DBs is only the latest name to represent the subjects of the Dawat in today's era. The subjects/followers of the dawat today are known as DBs, during the era of Imam Mustansir AS they were known as Ismailis, during the era of Imam Jafar Sadiq AS they were known as Shia. It may be interesting for you to know that the Imams have remained in seclusion for the most part of history of mankind since Maulana Adam Safiullah AS.

Oh ! you sound so much same as Sabak orators. Daah ! Same brainwashing jazz !! I want to elaborate, but historical facts are there all over for readers to refer to. So will spare them.

This current period of 900 years of seclusion is not a new or exaggerated one. Confused/Perplexed? Thinking what crap is this abde moron talking? That is why we ask you to leave your arrogance behind and join the sabaqs with renewed faith and obedience. And you will require patience, lots of patience; knowledge is not served on a platter, the pot has to be filled drop by drop.

Oh, Hell of a patience is required to make sense through loads of melodrama, guilt trip, victimization, senseless theories dished out to abdes. What you are suggesting is to attend sabaks get my mind beaten by overwhelmed guilt trips and once swollen with all that jazz, accept with no question asked else get tagged as daawat no dushman. Invite wrath and jeopardize safety of myself and family members.
Kothari agents are way too arrogant to handle a debate or uncomfortable questions.

2. the seclusion of the Imamuz zaman is a fact, just as the matyrdom of Imam Husain AS is a fact, or the matyrdom of Maula Ali AS is a fact, or the establishment of the fatimid empire in Misr is a fact.

Corruption in daawat is also a fact, human worship happening is also a fact, lack of accountability, embezzlement, money oriented division, favoritism, diversion from common sense, Islamic principles and natural justice is also a fact happening in current DB community. All under absolute authority of Dai Al Mutlaq..Sounds very convenient to claim infallibility in absence of Imam,

[humanbeing]

Dear Zinger
I m not offended with your words, or any insults thrown at me by other Kothari agents. Niether I m against anyone’s beliefs or faith. I m here to discuss / learn / unlearn about matters of faith and material life.
Thanks

[fearAllah]

Dawat is currently under the complete authority of the Dai Al Mutlaq, whose office has been appointed for the specific purpose of managing the affairs of the Dawat with complete authority over every function of the Dawat and its subjects.

Idiot, stop pretending as if you are not aware of anything, does Dawat to you mean a mission inviting more people into the faith (like what the prophets, imam did?) or does it mean that your corrupt father burhanuddin (with less than 1 million followers) just making money money money?

How many people have your 51, 52 and 53 in total managed to convert under the complete authority of the Dai Al Mutlaq so far? minus 100,000?

Dont forget many more within the community are opening their eyes and are reformist from within (with e-jammat cards like me), your time is coming up boy

[Adam]

Now that we're over with getting personal, maybe we can get back to the thread, any "try" to answer it.

How will the Proggies verify the true Imam?
(Do they even believe in an Imam or that he's in Satr?)

[porus]

How will the Proggies verify the true Imam?
(Do they even believe in an Imam or that he's in Satr?)

Adam,

This has been answered many times. I think that you have just chosen to put blinders on your eyes or do not wish to read the responses.

Imam will identify himself. He does not need anyone to verify him as, according to Bohras, he has God's authority, unlike the authority of Sayedna, who Bohras claim derives his authority from the Imam.

Let us remind ourselves of how Ali was recognized as Wasi of Rasulullah. It was Rasulullah, a person much higher in authority than Ali himself, who proclaimed him; whereas Muhammad did not need anyone to declare himself. If Imam is the highest authority since there will be no Prophet, he will declare himself. Like badrijanab said, "Imam is not mohtaj of a Dai for recognition".

When Mazoon declared himself to be the 53rd Dai, no one believed him because Bohras would only accept such declaration from the Dai himself, who is a higher authority than any person he would nominate.

I request that, having got your answer for the nth time, you put to this matter to bed.

[progticide]

Imam will identify himself.

How? Is he going to appear on CNN's Larry King Live or BBC's HardTalk? Is he going to be sitting in the AlJazeera or Fox News studios telecast live as Breaking News " The Imam found". And then, the reformists assured and certain of the credentials of these global news channels on the correctness and infallibility of their journalistic reports and scientific investigations including DNA tests and indepth analysis with Prime Time debate panels including the Grand Muftis of Islamic states and University Professors and Islamic & Ismaili historians and researchers certifying the genuineness of the True Imam, would call for the meeting of their Central Board to pass a resolution on the appearance of the True Imam. And then, the reformists shall send a delegation with a bouquet to meet the True Imam. Is this how the reformists envisage the knowledge and information on the zuhoor of The True Imam to reach them?

Old man, where have you been keeping your brains lately? Look in your refrigerator, maybe you left it there in the hope to prevent it from rotting.

I request that, having got your answer for the nth time, you put to this matter to bed.

Accept that you reformists have no clue of the answer to this question and cannot put forward any rational and logical theory on this critical and important subject, and We shall close this topic and ask the ADMIN to lock it.

Until then,
For Dawoodi Bohras - Dai Al Mutlaq's word will be final in the identification of the True Imam.

Still waiting for a united, common, coherent response/stand from the reformists on How reformists would verify The True Imam?.

[pheonix]

Adam wrote:
Easy: The Dai al Muthlaq during Satr is infallible. Dai Abi Abdullah wasn't the "Dai al Muthlaq" so he was not infallible.

Wow
Infallibie Dai did not know that his open mike cursing will cause Hullad. Life, limb and property of his faithful follower will be lost. Dai is believed to know past, present and future.

Even 53 has power to talk to dead and can do surgeries remotely.

First correct your definition of infallible and come argue.
Hush rabid wahabi hush

[seeker110]

There will be no sajda, kadam bosi, ziafat or salam with money. Anybody with income not earned via labor will get whipped. Anybody caught with monies belonging to the haqdar according to the Quran will get some fatkas. Those who who facilitated these acts will walk with the weight of all the baduwa, where they will bend to the ground, stay in pain and will suffer but won't die. They will be left without their children to fend for themselves.

It will be like Eid.

[Maqbool]

Imam will identify himself.

How? Is he going to appear on CNN's Larry King Live or BBC's HardTalk? Is he going to be sitting in the AlJazeera or Fox News studios telecast live as Breaking News " The Imam found". And then, the reformists assured and certain of the credentials of these global news channels on the correctness and infallibility of their journalistic reports and scientific investigations including DNA tests and indepth analysis with Prime Time debate panels including the Grand Muftis of Islamic states and University Professors and Islamic & Ismaili historians and researchers certifying the genuineness of the True Imam, would call for the meeting of their Central Board to pass a resolution on the appearance of the True Imam. And then, the reformists shall send a delegation with a bouquet to meet the True Imam. Is this how the reformists envisage the knowledge and information on the zuhoor of The True Imam to reach them?

Old man, where have you been keeping your brains lately? Look in your refrigerator, maybe you left it there in the hope to prevent it from rotting.

I request that, having got your answer for the nth time, you put to this matter to bed.

Accept that you reformists have no clue of the answer to this question and cannot put forward any rational and logical theory on this critical and important subject, and We shall close this topic and ask the ADMIN to lock it.

Until then,
For Dawoodi Bohras - Dai Al Mutlaq's word will be final in the identification of the True Imam.

Still waiting for a united, common, coherent response/stand from the reformists on How reformists would verify The True Imam?.

Oh My God!! The Imam will not be that powerful to identify himself to DB and will need the help of Dai! It means even the Imam will have to take raza of Dai to identify himself to DBs.

now look who's brain is to be kept in Refrigerator!

[Bohra spring]

Abde chicken and egg story which came first

Diai says the imumzam has appointed him and is hidden that he talks to like a ghost whisper

Let us say we give him benefit of doubt so by your logic i

Now dia says when somebody suddenly appears in physical world we will not recognize him unless diai identifies him and we should accept him.

It is like I say AZ some one you may have never met or heard has appointed me BS his subordinate

And when GM appears but does not say who he is you have to beleive me when I say it is actually AZ my boss!

So at the end of the day it is all about what the Diai says, we should beleive him when he says he was appointed rightfully and when he says someone is a saint we should believe him. Smart psychologist will understand the mind games he has nicely created

And 1 million bohras intellectual bohris beleive this ? wow what a big problem task to start cleansing the mess .

[mnoorani]

@Progticide

For Dawoodi Bohras - Dai Al Mutlaq's word will be final in the identification of the True Imam.
Still waiting for a united, common, coherent response/stand from the reformists.

Great question, but you'll never get an answer, because there isn't any unity nor any basic comprehension.
The Proggies are a confused bunch.

Right now the only confused bunch is the Abde's . The dai declares one thing and he and his family does the opposite. The instructs mumins to feed our poor neighbours and we see his sons going around club class to be fed at a price ! The dai tells to pray and we have his son in Kandivili arriving late to lead the ramadan namaaz everyday. Islam tells us to avoid travel during Ramadan and we see his sons hopping around in top flights during fasting hours. The dai keeps telling us that e are ummat of Fatima and he makes sure to do everything that would break Ma fatima's heart.
Purjosh maatam and loud wailing is done on Ashura and the luxurious ziayafats start within a day! The Abdes are now confused as what to beleive what is preached or what is practised.

[zinger]

Mere sab reformist bhaiyon aur beheno (if any women)

This has already been asked before, but i shall do it once again.

Hamare liye, hamare Dai kahenge ke bhai, sahi he, yahi hus sabke Imam hain, but that is only so we dont become Gumrah if someone claims to be the Imam.

Magar, agar koi kahe ke "Main Imam hoon", and let us assume for arguments sake ke Humsafar bhai ne unko maan liya, aur Al Zulfiquar bhai ne maan liya, magar Bohra Spring bhai ne, ya GM bhai ne, ya Human Being bhai ne inko nahin maana.

What then?

Will there is a schism in the Reformist Bohra camp about who agrees and who doesnt that this person is the Imam?

[mnoorani]

Schisms have been created only by the Dais immediate circle and the immediate family. All this happens at the death of the dai. The various Sulaimani, alavi , Sunni etc were created by the same genre.The power struggle has alsways been feirce and also bloody at times. Like in the case of the Alavi. Their first Dai after the schism was killed. The Sunni schism did much damage to the Bohras as entire families and mosques had turned Sunni , the Bohras then were tortured to death in many cases because of the support of the state.

[zinger]

Bilkul sahi janab, but just 1 thing. The schism i speak of here, which is also valid, is based on theological differneces.

What if 2 people from the Reformist camp disagree with the announcement of the Imam?

of course, the natural answer is that the one who dont agree, will reject Him and will continue waiting.

But atleast hum sab to unke saamne sajda karenge, as one.

[Humsafar]

Zinger,
Don't lose sleep over what will happen when the Imam comes, because when he comes Dai ke abba ko bhi manna padega ke wo imam hai.

[badrijanab]

Adam bhai, Progticide bhai and all other Mumineen,

Jab Imam-uz-zaman a.s. zuhoor karenge to Syedina burhanuddin / Muffaddal bhaisahab unke Imam hone ka iqrar karenge he karenge - is baat ki kya guarantee he?

Is KHOF me ki Kothar ko apna sara Mumineen se loota maal Imam-uz-zaman a.s. ko jama karana padega, woh Imam-uz-zaman ka iqrar hi nahi kare - tab aap aam mumineen ka kya hoga?

Dawoodi Bohras (Progressive) jo Sy. Burhanuddin (tus) ko apna Dai Mutlaq maante he, unse jab Hisaab/Accounts talab karte he to woh hisaab dene se INQAAR kar lete he!!! Yani Kothar ko MAAL/PAISA payara he; Mumineen nahi, agar Kothar hisaab/accounts de de to Bohra Youth movement abhi khatam ho jaye!

Quom me unity desire honi chahiye, magar Kothar ne PAISA/Maal ko select kiya unity/brotherhood nahi! Yaani Progressive se Baraat declare kar di taki Dawoodi bohra Ismailiya Shia (Youth) ko hisaab nahi dena pade!!! Kothar ne Islam ka basic rule toda he (to maintain brotherhood) - jo Kothar Islam ka basic rule break kar le woh apne loot ke maal ko bachane ke liye Haq ke Imam-uz-zaman ka bhi inqaar kar degi. Magar aap log to Imam ko tabhi Imam manoge jab Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) kahenge aur Kothar woh karega nahi tab aapne asli Imam ko Imam manne se inqaar karke inqaar ki khta kar bethoge, remember "Inqaar ni khata to Iblees ni khata che"!!!

In the light of above - The True Imam - How would you verify?

[level_headed]

"Inqaar ni khata to Iblees ni khata che"!!!

The devil is quoting the scriptures. Badrijanab - tu ane taaro Ahmak to Syedna Abdulkader Najmuddin ni nass no inkaar kidho. Tu ane Ahmak thayee gaya Iblees na saathi.

[Adam]

Imam will identify himself.

How? Is he going to appear on CNN's Larry King Live or BBC's HardTalk? Is he going to be sitting in the AlJazeera or Fox News studios telecast live as Breaking News " The Imam found". And then, the reformists assured and certain of the credentials of these global news channels on the correctness and infallibility of their journalistic reports and scientific investigations including DNA tests and indepth analysis with Prime Time debate panels including the Grand Muftis of Islamic states and University Professors and Islamic & Ismaili historians and researchers certifying the genuineness of the True Imam, would call for the meeting of their Central Board to pass a resolution on the appearance of the True Imam. And then, the reformists shall send a delegation with a bouquet to meet the True Imam. Is this how the reformists envisage the knowledge and information on the zuhoor of The True Imam to reach them?

Old man, where have you been keeping your brains lately? Look in your refrigerator, maybe you left it there in the hope to prevent it from rotting.[/b][/color]

Wow! *Thumbs Up*

@PORUS
My Dear Intelligent brother Porus.
The simple question "The True Imam - How would you verify?" is posed to the Proggies/Reformist, those who "supposedly" believe in the Imam. Not to you, who doesn't accept anything/anyone after Imam Husain AS. So your answering doesn't really make a difference. Thus, it hasn't been answered for the "nth" time, rather, people like you who constantly jump to the rescue (not so well though) and try to hide the ignorance and lack of unity between the Proggies/Reformists.

Dawoodi Bohras are clear that the Dai Muthlaq/representative of the Imam in Satr, will verify the Imam.
As then as now.

If the proggies/reformists don't accept the above statement in regards to the Dai Muthlaq, fair enough, but at least "try" to answer who you Proggies/reformists (not Porus) will verify YOUR Imam.

Proggies/Reformists? Anyone out there?[/color]

[Al Zulfiqar]

answer who you Proggies/reformists (not Porus) will verify YOUR Imam.[/b]

Proggies/Reformists? Anyone out there?[/color]

the answer is very simple. all we will do is watch your back. when we see your backside up in the air and waving about while in sajda to the zuhoor imam, we will know that he is the true one... next question?

[Humsafar]

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

the answer is very simple. all we will do is watch your back.

Why watch our back?
Why follow someone elses belief?
Be proud of your own, (unless you don't know what the heck it is!)

What a bunch of coward losers. (Answers coming from "Non Imam believers", so there's really no point answering.

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

now you are trying too hard to be disingenuous and modest by using the word 'our'. i clearly said 'your back', as in singular.

obviously there must be something about your backside for us to watch it so intently. it belongs to a great believer and scholar, an authority on the hidden imam and identifying him when he appears in person. your confidence on this subject is mind-blowing. since we progressives are totally confused, in your own words, it makes the job so much simpler for us to be behind you and wait for the signal when your backside leaps high in the air like moby dick in sajda to the hazar imam.

if its up, we go down... imam identified!

[badrijanab]

Adam bhai, Progticide bhai and all other Mumineen,

Jab Imam-uz-zaman a.s. zuhoor karenge to Syedina burhanuddin / Muffaddal bhaisahab unke Imam hone ka iqrar karenge he karenge - is baat ki kya guarantee he?

Is KHOF me ki Kothar ko apna sara Mumineen se loota maal Imam-uz-zaman a.s. ko jama karana padega, woh Imam-uz-zaman ka iqrar hi nahi kare - tab aap aam mumineen ka kya hoga?

Dawoodi Bohras (Progressive) jo Sy. Burhanuddin (tus) ko apna Dai Mutlaq maante he, unse jab Hisaab/Accounts talab karte he to woh hisaab dene se INQAAR kar lete he!!! Yani Kothar ko MAAL/PAISA payara he; Mumineen nahi, agar Kothar hisaab/accounts de de to Bohra Youth movement abhi khatam ho jaye!

Quom me unity desire honi chahiye, magar Kothar ne PAISA/Maal ko select kiya unity/brotherhood nahi! Yaani Progressive se Baraat declare kar di taki Dawoodi bohra Ismailiya Shia (Youth) ko hisaab nahi dena pade!!! Kothar ne Islam ka basic rule toda he (to maintain brotherhood) - jo Kothar Islam ka basic rule break kar le woh apne loot ke maal ko bachane ke liye Haq ke Imam-uz-zaman ka bhi inqaar kar degi. Magar aap log to Imam ko tabhi Imam manoge jab Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) kahenge aur Kothar woh karega nahi tab aapne asli Imam ko Imam manne se inqaar karke inqaar ki khta kar bethoge, remember "Inqaar ni khata to Iblees ni khata che"!!!

In the light of above - The True Imam - How would you verify?

Hello Adam bhai!???

[Muslim First]

Badrijanab Saheb

Khaheko itni Dalil kar rahe ho. Koi Imam nhi. 900 Saal ke baad ub to nahi raha Banse or nahi bajegi Basoori.

[progticide]

Adam bhai, Progticide bhai and all other Mumineen,

Jab Imam-uz-zaman a.s. zuhoor karenge to Syedina burhanuddin / Muffaddal bhaisahab unke Imam hone ka iqrar karenge he karenge - is baat ki kya guarantee he?

Badrijanab a.k.a Mubarak a.k.a Doctor,

Hamari fikr chhod, humne toh hamari dor Dai al Mutlaq ke haath me de di, ab hamara jo hona ho humein uski fikr nahi, hum hamare Dai ke saath he toh jalta hua sehra bhi hamare liye khushnuma chaman ki maanind he. isliye Imam zuhoor honge toh Dai pehchan karenge ki nahi karenge ye sab tum socho, humein toh kal bhi iske baare mein sochne ki zaroorat nahi thi, aaj bhi nahi he aur aane wale kal mein bhi nahi hogi. Ye Dai ka kaam he, so hum kyon fikr karein jab ye department unka he, Dai jaane aur Imamuz zaman jaane, ye unka aapas ka maamla he.

Lekin ab tum reformists bataao ke tum Imam ki pehchaan kaise karoge jabki tumne Dai ko apne maamle se alag kar diya he aur Imam se directly contact establish karne ki baat karte ho. Direct contact toh tab establish karoge na jab pehle The True Imam ki sahi pehchaan karoge. Isliye DBs ka kya hoga nahi hoga ye chhodo, hamare liye to Dai jaane aur Imam jaane, ye unke aapas ki baat he.

Tum reformists kya karoge ye bataao jabki tumhara maamla tumne khud hi apne haath mein le liya he. Toh apna mamla apne haath mein lene ke pehle is masle par kuch toh socha hoga tumhare leaders ne ya socha hi nahi. Beech aasmaan mein JumboJet ke Pilot ko Utaar toh diya, aur ab Headlight ka switch doondh rahe ho kyunki aage baadalon mein kuch dikh nahi raha, landing ki ko baat hi chhodo!

So the question still continues to remain unanswered: How would the reformists verify The True Imam?