The True Imam - How would you verify?

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

we will be closely watching and monitoring your backside. your backside is the ultimate barometer for identifying the true imam. in fact, its reputation has spread so far and wide, that even the aliya bohras, adtalisiyas, suleimani bohras and some sunni groups have trained powerful telescopes on your butt. did you know that your posterior is being tracked on GPS?

obviously there must be something about your backside for us to watch it so intently. it belongs to a great believer and scholar, an authority on the hidden imam and identifying him when he appears in person. your confidence and knowledge on this subject is mind-blowing. since we progressives are totally confused, in your own words, it makes the job so much simpler for us to be behind you and wait for the signal when your backside leaps up high in the air and waves about, like moby dick, in sajda to the hazar imam. thats our signal.

if its up, we go down... true imam identified!

[ghulam muhammed]

Excerpts from the book "From Darkness Towards Light" written by a member of Bohra Ithna Ashari Jamaat :-

“Now 100 Imams instead of 21”

Many new religious beliefs have come into being in the last few years. As seen in a discussion between a new member of Jamat, the young Shabbir Husain Ja’farali Gadawala and a teacher of Jamia Millia Saifiyya, Karachi, Pakistan. The debate took place at a guesthouse in Jhumpa Bazar in Surat. Janab Shabbir Husain had recently converted to the Ithna Ashari faith and he had a discussion with Janab Shaykh Mulla Mustansir Rangoonwala Sahab, who is the principal and senior teacher of the Bohra seminary in Pakistan. The debate continued for three days and arguments were put forth by both the sides. We present here in a very brief form the above-mentioned discussion.

The Bohra gentleman had come on a special mission from Karachi and this meeting took place to ‘correct’ the religious beliefs of Shabbir Husain. The respected father of Shabbir Husain was also present there. By way of his defense, Shabbir Husain said that on the basis of prophetic traditions, he believed in the Twelve Imams and the Fourteen Masoomeen (a.s.) and also possessed recognition of the Twelfth Imam, Imam Mahdi (a.t.f.s.).

Janab asked, “Where is your 12th Imam?” Shabbir Husain replied that he was behind the curtain of occultation (Ghaibat) and his age today was more than 1170 years and he would reappear in the world by the permission of Allah.
The Janab said that it was a wrong notion of Shabbir Husain and his co-religionists because it was not possible for anyone to have such a long life. He also said that no human can live for more than a hundred years. Then how could the Mahdi live for so long? Also how can the people benefit from him if he lives in occultation? What is the use of such an occultation?

Shabbir Husain said that the matter of benefit would come later. First of all it must be decided whether it is possible for anyone to have such a long life? He asked the Bohra gentleman that was it not a part of their belief that their Imam Tayyab is also in occultation since centuries?

The Janab immediately responded that who says that he is the 21st Imam? There are going to be nearly a hundred Imams!

Shabbir Husain immediately challenged him to name the hundred Imams and also state who was the Imam of the present age? What is his name and agnomen? What are his titles etc?

The Janab replied that it was the matter of esoteric interpretation (TAWEEL) that is only known to Allah and the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.). Shabbir Husain asked him then what was the use of such interpretation? The Janab further explained that in addition to the Almighty Allah and the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) the present Sayyidna was also cognizant of the interpretation of all this, but others do not have any right to learn about the esoteric meanings.

Shabbir Husain asked, “Then how can a believer or a Muslim have recognition of the Imam? While it is the faith and belief of all the Muslims that Prophet Khizr is alive on the earth and Prophet Jesus is alive on the fourth heaven. And the Holy Quran also testifies to this. Moreover, Prophet Idris and Prophet Ilyas are also alive. And all of them shall arrive when Imam Mahdi (a.s.) reappears. Now what do you have to say?” The Janab said that all these things were
self-made and imaginative. How can a human being remain alive for so many years? This has not yet been proved so far. “You are being befooled and you are ignorant about all this and it is beyond your power to understand religious issues.”

Shabbir Husain said that then was it a lie (God forbid) in the Holy Quran that Prophet Nuh (a.s.) spent 950 years propagating faith to his community? And according to traditions his total age was 2500 years. While Prophet Jesus (a.s.) is alive on the fourth heaven since the last 2000 years. Can the Almighty not keep his righteous successor alive through His power? While the Almighty Allah Himself says: Inallaaha Alaa Qulle Shayyin Qadeer. “Indeed Allah is powerful over everything.” Come on! The Satan is also alive till date!

The Janab said that it was really a shameful matter that, “You Ithna Asharis have to resort to comparison with Satan in order to prove the long age of the Imam of the time. The fact is that the original Satan died long ago and his progeny continues today.” Regarding His Eminence, Nuh (a.s.) he said that actually no deluge occurred in the lifetime of Nuh (a.s.) and about Khizr (a.s.) he said that actually he was the Imam-e-Zamana (Imam of the time).

In other words, though the gentleman had information about the whole world, everything was a matter of esoteric interpretation.

The Janab said, “Shabbir Husain, all this is a matter of esoteric interpretation which you cannot understand. What you can do is to revert to your original faith of Dawoodi community. Give the Misaaq again and repent for your conversion to Ithna Ashari faith.” Now Shabbir Husain became angry and he was infuriated by this insult, because the Janab had, in a heated moment said, “The claim of your Kazim Musa to Imamate is not correct. And I would not even call him the
Imam. So you must not feel bad about it.” Shabbir Husain said, “All right, I do not want to address your Imams in the insulting way you refer to my Imams. It is not the manner of we, Ithna Ashari people, and we also maintain decorum even though we may be engaged in a debate or argument. We never behave with anyone in an insulting manner. So we must end all discussion and debate here. It is best for everyone and the most appropriate thing. Because it is upto me what religion I follow and believe in. No one can dictate to me in this regard. And the Holy Quran clearly says: Laa Ikraaha fiddeen. “There is no compulsion in religion.” (It means that where there is compulsion, there is no religion). Refer to Surah Baqarah, the throne verse. When there is no compulsion in religion how can you or even my father and
grandfather force me to follow this or that religion in this way?

If after believing in the 12 Imams I have to go to Hell I prefer it to believing in 21 Imams and going to Paradise.
Because your religion and your faith is that which I cannot comprehend and which you cannot even explain to me and make me understand; now what use is such religion to me? Which is beyond reason and logic? When I ask you to explain your religion to me you tell me that I have to go to your Saifiyyah Seminary in Surat. And that too for seven days so that you may explain from your books. Would you say the same thing to other Muslim sects that if you like to know about our religion and know the facts, you have to come to Surat?

You are even offering an esoteric interpretation of this verse of, “There is no compulsion in religion.” And you speak in a roundabout manner. Now what else remains for you to say? For everything and for every question you have the standard reply: “This is a matter of esoteric interpretation.” Then you please leave me as I am and I don’t feel there is any need of further discussion and debate. For you your religion and for me, mine.”

Then Janab, changing tracks said, “No one can change his or her religion. He shall remain on the faith on which he was born and he should remain on the same religion. I am giving you the last warning that you desist from this and return to your original faith otherwise we would boycott you socially from your rights. You shall be expelled from the Jamat and shunned by all (Baraat). So you must immediately give up your stance and do not be obstinate in it.”

Shabbir Husain said, “You mean to say that if someone feels that the religion of Islam is correct, he cannot accept Islam and become a Muslim? He should remain on his old faith even though he may die in disbelief; but he cannot change his faith. Is this what you mean to say? What a nice thing you have said! If a Muslim man or woman likes the Ismaili faith, he or she cannot change the faith? What do you say about the time when the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) started his mission and people from the infidels of Mecca, the Christians and the Jews accepted Islam? What do you say about them? And this Bohra Ithna Ashari Jamat that has been formed; are they all mad and insane? That they follow the Shia religion?”

The Janab said, “Yes, we are aware that a few Alawi Bohras have formed a Jamat in Vadodra.” Shabbir Husain said that they are not ‘few’ and their Jamat is also formed in Mumbai and many Bohras have become Twelver Shias in many parts of India.”

The Janab said, “Then what do you think about it? Since you have no intention of leaving the faith then we will complain about you to the higher authorities.”

In the end except of speaking about esoteric interpretation, the Janab did not present any rational or textual proofs. And the discussion ended at this point. (Writer: There is a tradition of Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s.) that: If our ignorant one and their scholar argues and our ignorant follower is defeated in the debate, our religion is false). It means that our religion is so strong and true that even our ignorant member cannot be defeated by the scholars of other people.

After a month, the Janab called up Shabbir Husain in Mumbai and told to come for a meeting in Bohra Mohalla so that
discussion may be carried forward. Shabbir Husain replied that he did not feel any need of meeting because he said, “My conscience cannot accept that I should go on accepting what all you say while you do not accept as correct whatever I say. It is not possible for me to go on saying ‘yes’ to all you say. Whatever discussion we had in Surat is
sufficient for me. You remain on your religion and let me remain on my faith. Was-Salaam.”

We have recorded the above statement in writing because we have accepted this faith after a lot of contemplation and reflection. We have adopted the religion of Ahle Bayt (a.s.) after extensive research and study. If the situation demands we are ready for discussion and we can also participate in debates. We have solid arguments and firm proofs also.

We follow the tradition of Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a.s.). He told his companions that they must propagate religion with their mouths shut. So the companions asked him, “Maula, how is it possible to propagate religion with our mouths shut?” The Imam said that their character, manners and actions should be such that when people see them, they should
exclaim: May Allah send mercy on Abu Abdillah Ja'far Sadiq (a.s.) that what a nice training and education he has given to his Shias. So that they become the followers of our Imamate. We do not need to criticize and denounce the religion of others and we do not even have time for all this. Our religion contains a lot and we are satisfied with it.

http://bohrashia.com/English.pdf

[badrijanab]

Bhai GM sahab,

Kindly convey to your friend whose unnamed and unaddressed testimony you pasted here to visit this forum and search here for text he was contending and filter it with humble "Badrijanab". DB faith, the only Islam i.e. the truth will always triumph.

[anajmi]

Every testimony from the hidden Imam is also unnamed and unaddressed.

[JC]

The entire dawoodi bohra relgion rests on the concept of 'Taweel' and discrimanatory 'Sabaaqs'. It is either Dai's way or highway!!

[Rising Star]

The entire dawoodi bohra relgion rests on the concept of 'Taweel' and discrimanatory 'Sabaaqs'. It is either Dai's way or highway!!

I will prefer highway then this kind of DAI ways....

[badrijanab]

Every testimony from the hidden Imam is also unnamed and unaddressed.

By the same token, same for hidden Zibraeel and hidden Allah.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bhai GM sahab,



Kindly convey to your friend whose unnamed and unaddressed testimony you pasted here to visit this forum and search here for text he was contending and filter it with humble "Badrijanab". DB faith, the only Islam i.e. the truth will always triumph.

Kindly note that the person named in the conversion is not known to me, I have only pasted an article which I have made it clear at the beginning itself and have also provided a link to it.

Excerpts from the book "From Darkness Towards Light" written by a member of Bohra Ithna Ashari Jamaat :-

[anajmi]

By the same token, same for hidden Zibraeel and hidden Allah.

Do not be a moron. You know the name and address of both Zibraeel and Allah. Infact Allah has told us his 99 different names.

[humble_servant_us]

badrijanab,

The name of the person is Shabbir Hussain Gadawala which is also mentioned in the post. I have met him and have heard the complete debate from his own mouth.

There is a Bohra shia jamaat in Mazgaon, Mumbai. You are free to visit it and get more details on this. Most of the people in the jamaat are Alavis and dawoodi Bohras who have reverted to the shia ithnaashari faith.

FYI Shabbir has moved out of India.

[badrijanab]

By the same token, same for hidden Zibraeel and hidden Allah.

Do not be a moron. You know the name and address of both Zibraeel and Allah. Infact Allah has told us his 99 different names.

Have you verified if the names are really coming from Zibraeel or Allah?

Even if we ASSUME their names are correct still both Allah and Zibraeel are hidden like Imam-uz-zaman!

[anajmi]

So my assumption was correct. You are a mushrik who has believes that your hidden Imam is the same as Allah. Thank you for confirming.

Faith in Allah and Jibrael is a pre-requisite of being a Muslim. Faith in the hidden Imam is the pre-requisite of a fictional religion called Fatimid Dawat who mushrik followers are called dawoodi-bohras.

2:285 - THE APOSTLE, and the believers with him, believe in what has been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer: they all believe in God, and His angels, and His revelations, and His apostles, making no distinction between any of His apostles; and they say: We have heard, and we pay heed. Grant us Thy forgiveness, O our Sustainer, for with Thee is all journeys' end!

Surprise, surprise - no hidden Imam mentioned!!!

[anajmi]

Have you verified if the names are really coming from Zibraeel or Allah?

Since 14 centuries worth of hidden Imams haven't suggested any changes in those names, we can rest assured that they are the true names. Infact 14 centuries worth of hidden Imams haven't suggested a single change of a single word in the Quran.

[Bohra spring]

GM Bhai ...in the discussion between Shabbir and the Bhaisaheb ...aside from their argument around toweel

They could not explain how a Imam can live for 1100 years...

The Bohra guy went well when he started saying it is imagination ...but somehow lost track and got emotional

Shabbir rather than explaining the Shia side went into you prove first then I will prove mine...

So typical of all discussions even on this PDB site...we forget the topic and debate to commentator and kill ourselves in the way to frame the argument ! Shows how immature we are , What a shame.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Shows how immature we are , What a shame.

yep, immature indeed, when you talk of electing a dai and still hope to remain within the ambit of dawoodi bohra-ism... what a shame!

[ghulam muhammed]

DB faith, the only Islam i.e. the truth will always triumph.

With your stereotype rants you sound more and more like a broken record. Every person believes that he/she is on the right path, be it the ones who worship monkey gods and elephant gods or the ones who practice witchcraft or kabala not to forget the abdes who not only believe that they are truly guided by a corrupt dai but also believe that they are the ONLY ones who are promised paradise and that too by way of a permit i.e. ruku chithi, a privilege not granted to anyone else in the world !!

[Saiyaad]

Agar manav tu sab kuch hai , aur na mano toh kuch bhi nahi

[ghulam muhammed]

Iran’s multiplicity of messiahs

The authorities think that too many people are claiming to be the Mahdi


EARLIER this year Iran’s authorities arrested a score of men who, in separate incidents, claimed to be the Mahdi, a sacred figure of Shia Islam, who was “hidden” by God just over a millennium ago and will return some time to conquer evil on earth. A website based in Qom, Iran’s holiest city, deemed the men “deviants”, “fortune-tellers” and “petty criminals”, who were exploiting credulous Iranians for alms during the Persian new-year holiday, which fell in mid-March. Many of the fake messiahs were picked up by security men in the courtyard to the mosque in Jamkaran, a village near Qom, whose reputation as the place of the awaited Mahdi’s advent has been popularised nationwide by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. When he took office in 2005 he gave the mosque $10m.

Iran’s economic doldrums may have helped to cause this surge in people claiming to be mankind’s saviour—and in women saying they were the Mahdi’s wife. “In an open atmosphere where people could criticise the government they would not believe these people,” says an ex-seminarian in Tehran, the capital, noting that most Iranians still get all of their news from state television and state-owned or -sanctioned newspapers.

Last year a seminary expert, Mehdi Ghafari, said that more than 3,000 fake Mahdis were in prison. Mahdi-complexes are common, says a Tehran psychiatrist. “Every month we get someone coming in, convinced he is the Mahdi,” she says. “Once a man was saying such outrageous things and talking about himself in the third person that I couldn’t help laughing. He got angry and told me I had ‘bad hijab’ and was disrespecting the ‘Imam of Time’,” as the Mahdi is known.

The most famous case was that of Ayatollah Boroujerdi, who was sentenced to 11 years in prison in 2007 for—among other things—claiming he was the Mahdi. Like many influential “false” messiahs, he was forced to recant on state television, confessing that he had been against the Islamic Republic’s core tenets.

Mr Ahmadinejad has called his administration “the government of the hidden imam”. Last month he told a batch of new Iranian ambassadors to consider themselves “envoys of the Mahdi”. After his first speech at the UN in 2005, a video circulated showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a leading Iranian cleric that world leaders had been enchanted, during his oration, by a halo around his head that had been put there by the Mahdi himself.

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-ea ... z2RkpTMKfd

[Al Zulfiqar]

...more than 3,000 fake Mahdis were in prison.

the solution could have been so painless and simple. if only they had invited either syedna burhanuddin saheb or his manhoos to come to iran and verify which among these 3000 was the true imam or not.

but these iranians are so obstinate. if only they were to give up their pride and arrogance and accept mola as their lord and imam al qaim and the mahdi, all their problems would have disappeared and they too would be residing under his thanda (kurta) saaya and his beshumaar karam ane ehsaan ta qayamat!

[Qutbi-Hero]

We have had over 50 Dai's now and it's been almost a 1000 years. Just what is Imam al Zaman waiting for?

Why doesn't he come back and put an end to all the corruption and injustice in our community?

Does he really exist, or was he conjured up by the Kothar to keep us under control, like the Imam Mahdi of the Ithna Asheris?

[seeker110]

I sincerely believe after 5pm unless he is held up in traffic.

[badrijanab]

Just what is Imam al Zaman waiting for?

Command of Allah.

Why doesn't he come back and put an end to all the corruption and injustice in our community?

Waiting for command of Allah.

Does he really exist, or was he conjured up by the Kothar to keep us under control, like the Imam Mahdi of the Ithna Asheris?

"Yes" as per - Quran (a) 17:71, (b) 13:7, (c) 21:73, (d) 4:59

Pay special attention to Quran 4:59 - "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." (translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

[Qutbi-Hero]

Just what is Imam al Zaman waiting for?

Command of Allah.

Why doesn't he come back and put an end to all the corruption and injustice in our community?

Waiting for command of Allah.

Does he really exist, or was he conjured up by the Kothar to keep us under control, like the Imam Mahdi of the Ithna Asheris?

"Yes" as per - Quran (a) 17:71, (b) 13:7, (c) 21:73, (d) 4:59

Pay special attention to Quran 4:59 - "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." (translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

What is Allah waiting for then?

How do we know our Imam is the right one? Are we in the right sect?

[badrijanab]

What is Allah waiting for then?

Ask Allah.

How do we know our Imam is the right one? Are we in the right sect?

One of the many simple proof is: Aayat# 2:184 - in this aayat Allah commands to have fix number of days for Ramadan - only the Bohra's (true Islam) have fixed days for Ramdan, rest all sects like Sunni, Ithna Asheri, etc are NOT in compliance of this aayat of Quran. This is simple litmus test to know we (DB) are in the right sect.

[abde53]

to all the corruption and injustice in our community

Bhai so it proves that Imam is not coming in Zahoor because we have no injustice or corruption. Our Shafiq Bawa is doing khidmat as per the khushi of our imam ul zaman and imam is happy with his Dai TUS and mansoos Sydi Muffdal BS TUS so need for him to come in zahoor. our imam is directing our Shafiq Moula how to run Dawat as our Moula gets his direction from Imam

[SBM]

We have had over 50 Dai's now and it's been almost a 1000 years. Just what is Imam al Zaman waiting for?

Why doesn't he come back and put an end to all the corruption and injustice in our community?

Does he really exist, or was he conjured up by the Kothar to keep us under control, like the Imam Mahdi of the Ithna Asheris?

Imam has not received the RAZA from the PRISTINE DAI of PRISTINE Bohra Community, Once Badrijanab has established a PRISTINE bohra community then their PRISTINE DAI will request Imam to appear in public
THE QUESTION IS HOW WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE THE TRUE IMAM

[ghulam muhammed]

THE QUESTION IS HOW WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE THE TRUE IMAM

Now watch how the convener of the Pristine faith goes around in circles.

[badrijanab]

THE QUESTION IS HOW WOULD YOU RECOGNIZE THE TRUE IMAM

Like previously, was any common men in beginning knowing if Mohammed s.a.w.w. was Prophet? No. How the then people RECOGNIZE Mohammed s.a.w.w. was truly a Prophet? Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. preached the message that he is the Prophet indeed - some outrightly believed his claim, other tested by placing queries about matters in which they have acumen.

Same happened when after last concealment of three Mastooreen Imam when Imam Mehdi a.s. came to zuhoor, his appointed missionaries introduced people about Imam Mehdi a.s. in place called Sijlimasa - those who believed his claim outrightly tendered misaaq, some others inquired/questioned and then converted...

Same this time... Imam or his appointed missionaries will introduce the Imam, and should you wish to check then test the claimant with question that you have acumen of and see if Imam can answer it correctly or otherwise. This way you can recognise true Imam.

[ghulam muhammed]

Imam or his appointed missionaries will introduce the Imam

Who are his missionaries and where are they ? Or are they too hiding ?

[anajmi]

I know two missionaries of the Imam - Oxford and Webster.