The True Imam - How would you verify?

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JC
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#991

Unread post by JC » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:34 am

zinger wrote:
JC wrote:Abdes/Amtes have funny way of justifying things they do ................ if you kiss Hajr-e-Aswad, you can kiss ANY STONE ............... if you can do tawaf of Kabaa you can do tawaf of graves of TS and MB ................ if you can bow to Allah, you can bow to Dai ................... if you can have Nabi, you can have Wasee .............. and if you can have Wasee, you can have Imam, if you can have Imam, you can have Dai ................... if you can pray Frad and Sunnah, you can pray x-numbers of Rakaa for TS, MB and MS ............... if Nabi showed miracles, Dai can show miracles too ................ WHY NOT?? where will this end?? This is really pathetic way of justifying WRONGS .........

See JC, that is where you are sooooooo wrong :roll: :roll: :roll:

i never said if you can kiss Hajr-e-Aswad, you can kiss ANY STONE. i only said this in responce to what one of your buddies said about the stone in Sidhpur (which by the way, i personally dont endorse, it reeks too much of finding hidden murti and creating a temple around it, to me)

As for the rest of your ramble, you are free to arrive at your own conclusions
Sorry bro, ANY STONE applies, bohras use kissing to Hajr-e-Aswad to kissing numerous graves, now this 'stone' has come up, tomorrow something else will come up. As is if you Jamea students KISS photos of MB and MS before going to bed .......... and the justification is that if you can kiss Hajr-e-Aswad ....... rest of my 'ramble' makes all the sense - don't they all say if Allah is hidden, so can be Imam?? Don't they justify DAI by starting from Nabi?? Wait tomorrow the 'phonkofy' water of MS will be compared to Ab-e-Zamzam ...!!

SBM
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#992

Unread post by SBM » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:19 am

Wait tomorrow the 'phonkofy' water of MS will be compared to Ab-e-Zamzam
No they already call it Rehmat Nu Paani.
I was attending one of Abde's funeral and Aamil did ask for Rehmat Nu Paani to be sprinkled on the Kaafan of the deceased, I thought he was asking for Aabe Zamzam but I was told no he is asking for Moula Na Phook nu Paani.

JC
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#993

Unread post by JC » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:45 pm

Oh I see ........ so bohras no more sprinkle Aabe Zamzam when some one is laid to rest in his/her grave?? I fully remember WE use to do this in good old days. I am assuming now RNP has replaced AZ ............. SAD, SAD, SAD .............. Rehmat Nu Pani, what a crap..!! should be Zehmat Nu Pani, even the recently-dead one will also be uncomfortable with this, if not anything else may be the smell .............. :)

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#994

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:53 pm

Actually Islamic beliefs do not teach any hatred. Hatred is the key component of Fatimid beliefs. You are required to hate the companions of the prophet, you are required to hate the wives of the prophet, you are required to do baraat on those who do not agree to kiss the dais feet and the list goes on and on.

haqniwaat
Posts: 516
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#995

Unread post by haqniwaat » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:00 pm

anajmi wrote:Actually Islamic beliefs do not teach any hatred. Hatred is the key component of Fatimid beliefs. You are required to hate the companions of the prophet, you are required to hate the wives of the prophet, you are required to do baraat on those who do not agree to kiss the dais feet and the list goes on and on.
Hatred is not taught in Fatimid belief, my friend. Rather it is a component of muffadal bs and his gang of anti mazoon campaign. Visit Fatimid dawat website run by Syedna Qutbuddin and see if you can find even a hint of hate.

zinger
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#996

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:30 am

JC wrote:
zinger wrote:
See JC, that is where you are sooooooo wrong :roll: :roll: :roll:

i never said if you can kiss Hajr-e-Aswad, you can kiss ANY STONE. i only said this in responce to what one of your buddies said about the stone in Sidhpur (which by the way, i personally dont endorse, it reeks too much of finding hidden murti and creating a temple around it, to me)

As for the rest of your ramble, you are free to arrive at your own conclusions
Sorry bro, ANY STONE applies, bohras use kissing to Hajr-e-Aswad to kissing numerous graves, now this 'stone' has come up, tomorrow something else will come up. As is if you Jamea students KISS photos of MB and MS before going to bed .......... and the justification is that if you can kiss Hajr-e-Aswad ....... rest of my 'ramble' makes all the sense - don't they all say if Allah is hidden, so can be Imam?? Don't they justify DAI by starting from Nabi?? Wait tomorrow the 'phonkofy' water of MS will be compared to Ab-e-Zamzam ...!!
Sorry bro, will have to disagree with you here again. Kissing a grave does not mean anything other than a habit of respect.

The story about Jamea students, if you ask me, is a fabricated rumour. some might be doing it, no doubt, but i asked 2 jamea students myself and they said no such thing is asked for. it is ultimately a persons belief. Nobody justifies a Dai, it is the anti-Bohras on this site here that claim it. We state that the Dai is a guide, Allah, the Quran, the Prophet, his Wali, the Imams and subsequently the Dai. that is the context you need to understand it
Tomorrow, if some stupid people compare Phook nu Paani to ZamZam, then woe be to them. do your best to correct them and educate them, i would certainly do the same, but do not use that as an excuse to abuse the entire sect then

zinger
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#997

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:33 am

SBM wrote:
Wait tomorrow the 'phonkofy' water of MS will be compared to Ab-e-Zamzam
No they already call it Rehmat Nu Paani.
I was attending one of Abde's funeral and Aamil did ask for Rehmat Nu Paani to be sprinkled on the Kaafan of the deceased, I thought he was asking for Aabe Zamzam but I was told no he is asking for Moula Na Phook nu Paani.
Did the Aamil not ask for Zam Zam? im sure you missed that part!!!!!
Anyways, if he did not, suggest you report this Aamil to abiturab@alvazarat.org or call on 91-9769795252 and report this
But before you do, make sure you confirm Zam Zam was not sprinkled

zinger
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#998

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:35 am

truth seeker100 wrote:
zinger wrote: why do you kiss it? do you kiss it because it taste nice or to venerate it? kissing it is the same as worshipping it. if you looked at it and moved on, then its "just looking at it". but the moment you push and shove to kiss it, it becomes more than just "kissing" it.

give me a good reason why you need to kiss the stone?
so mr zinger when somebody kisses their loved ones are they worshipping it or doing it out of love? kissing the stone is not a command by the quran, people just like to do it. now show me proof from quran how dai is needed for salvation
ok, my answer is i do not believe that the Dai is needed for salvation. i have already clarified it. it is ultimately your deeds that decide it.

now you need to answer me. why do muslims kiss Hajr E Aswad?

BTW, you are still barking up the wrong tree. i never said Dai is needed for salvation cause i dont believe it :mrgreen:

Now back to my question,

zinger
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#999

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:37 am

truth seeker100 wrote:
zinger wrote:
i havent asked you any questions champ. you are the one who is asking them. i dont want any answers from you becuase you dont have any to give. As to Fatimid beliefs, i dont need to prove anything to you.
correction you can't prove to me that Fatimid beliefs are in line with islamic beliefs. if you are so confident about these beliefs why can't you prove them? are u scared? do you not have raza from muffy? and btw you asked me why muslims kiss Hagar e Assad, I think that qualifies as you asking me a question
Nope. I DONT need to prove it.

Now since i answered your question on whether Dai is needed, i said no, i disagree. now you will need to answer mine

truth seeker100
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1000

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:24 am

zinger wrote:
truth seeker100 wrote: correction you can't prove to me that Fatimid beliefs are in line with islamic beliefs. if you are so confident about these beliefs why can't you prove them? are u scared? do you not have raza from muffy? and btw you asked me why muslims kiss Hagar e Assad, I think that qualifies as you asking me a question
Nope. I DONT need to prove it.

Now since i answered your question on whether Dai is needed, i said no, i disagree. now you will need to answer mine
no. you need to prove how Fatimid beliefs are in line with islamic beliefs. stop trying to shy away from my question like a coward. prove how Fatimid beliefs are in line with islamic beliefs.
now muslims performing hajj or umrah try to kiss the black stone called hajar aswad on the wall of Kaaba near its door because we are recommended to follow the tradition of prophet Ibrahim and his son Ismael and also Muhammad pbuh It is not mandatory so we can only see it in the far side just saying "Allah hu akbar" We do not worship that black stone and also the Kaaba.We worship directly to Allah only.

zinger
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1001

Unread post by zinger » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:21 am

@ TS100

super. thanks for answering. but like i said, i dont need to prove articles of our faith, and least of all to you

fiate2000
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1002

Unread post by fiate2000 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:09 pm

Sorry to totally disagree with you haqniwaat. Component of Mufaddal 's beleifs and his gang? :?: Was not Qutubuddin and his gang a component of 51st and 52nd, so called dai's who took every opportunity to curse Rasool's followers in every Moharram as far as I can rem. Yet it is beleived that Rasool himself mentioned that all his companions are to follow him in Jaanah, then who are we mere mortals to say Lannat on them? Hatred is indeed deep rooted in Fatimid Dawat and the abdes are blinded by religion and community adherence. Abdes are guided by the wrong fear of GOD! Whoever is and ever been part and parcel of Fatimid Dawat is involved in the power and money game. They contradict each and every teacing of Rasool. Haqniwaat please go and get some common sense :wink:

haqniwaat wrote:
anajmi wrote:Actually Islamic beliefs do not teach any hatred. Hatred is the key component of Fatimid beliefs. You are required to hate the companions of the prophet, you are required to hate the wives of the prophet, you are required to do baraat on those who do not agree to kiss the dais feet and the list goes on and on.
Hatred is not taught in Fatimid belief, my friend. Rather it is a component of muffadal bs and his gang of anti mazoon campaign. Visit Fatimid dawat website run by Syedna Qutbuddin and see if you can find even a hint of hate.

haqniwaat
Posts: 516
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1003

Unread post by haqniwaat » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:18 pm

fiate2000 wrote:Sorry to totally disagree with you haqniwaat. Component of Mufaddal 's beleifs and his gang? :?: Was not Qutubuddin and his gang a component of 51st and 52nd, so called dai's who took every opportunity to curse Rasool's followers in every Moharram as far as I can rem. Yet it is beleived that Rasool himself mentioned that all his companions are to follow him in Jaanah, then who are we mere mortals to say Lannat on them? Hatred is indeed deep rooted in Fatimid Dawat and the abdes are blinded by religion and community adherence. Abdes are guided by the wrong fear of GOD! Whoever is and ever been part and parcel of Fatimid Dawat is involved in the power and money game. They contradict each and every teacing of Rasool. Haqniwaat please go and get some common sense :wink:
haqniwaat wrote: Hatred is not taught in Fatimid belief, my friend. Rather it is a component of muffadal bs and his gang of anti mazoon campaign. Visit Fatimid dawat website run by Syedna Qutbuddin and see if you can find even a hint of hate.
Okay, to be fair, what you are stating is not even Shia belief. So arguing about the points you are making is a waste of time, if you get my drift! You may find more friends on a Wahabi board. Once again, Shia's do not believe that Abu Bakr, Umar, Othmaan, and Aisha were anything but vessels of the devil! If you don't agree with this, "Lakum Deenukum Waleya Deen!"

truth seeker100
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1004

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:07 pm

zinger wrote:@ TS100

super. thanks for answering. but like i said, i dont need to prove articles of our faith, and least of all to you
OK then. Why don't you want to prove your beliefs? I know it is because you are scared and don't have proof. According to your logic tomorrow I can start saying that Christian beliefs are in like with Islamic beliefs and that I don't need to prove them. Now will that be OK?

fiate2000
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1005

Unread post by fiate2000 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:43 pm

Okay, to be fair, what you are stating is not even Shia belief. So arguing about the points you are making is a waste of time, if you get my drift! You may find more friends on a Wahabi board. Once again, Shia's do not believe that Abu Bakr, Umar, Othmaan, and Aisha were anything but vessels of the devil! If you don't agree with this, "Lakum Deenukum Waleya Deen!"[/quote]

Yet again, haqniwaat, you are contradicting rasools teaching. Did Imam hussein ever proclaim that he was a shia. Unlike muslims is shia sunnin wahabis bohra ....blah blah blah.. mentioned in the Quran? Ever thought why? clearly becasue rasool taught ppl to be muslims and before his death he clearly mentioned that there will be several sects to follow after him, who will all befall hell. Well, even your maula mentions that in the wayez, and dares to promise he will take the abdes to Jannah (what shirk!! nawuzobillah) So haqniwaat make hay while the sunshines and If you insist on rejecting rasools faith I say the same "Lakum Deenukum Waleya Deen!" Allah is my witness.
With regard to vessels of devil ,if they were rightly so, can you please tell me ( that is if you ever had the opportunity to study/read islamic history ) why, Hazrat Ali married the widow of Abu bakr and named many of his children after Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman?

ghulam muhammed
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1006

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:07 pm

A post relevant to the subject had appeared on this forum which is as below :-

The Dawoodi Bohras claim that the imam or descendants of the imam are alive and on the earth today and they correspond with the current Dai through ‘ilham’, which means dreams in Arabic. This system of succession and the correspondence with the Dai is never discussed openly, and left to the whims, fancies and imaginations of the leaders of the hierarchy. And Allah Alone knows best the truth (if there is any) behind all this fantasy!!

There is absolutely no mention of this ‘fantastic’ story of the imam going into ‘purdah’ in the Holy Quran or the Sunnah of the Messenger (saws). Thus obviously, it cannot be part of the deen of Islam. The best people to address this question would be the ones who propagate this fabulous story! They are the ones who have created this story, and they should be the best ones to offer a reasonable answer for it, obviously, giving evidence from the Quran and Sunnah … if this is indeed part of the deen of Islam. If not, then they can create any number of stories to hang on to their power base which has been built around this fantastic story!

Even if we were to believe in this fantastic story, that an imam is alive on this planet earth and corresponds with the Syedna by ‘ilhaam’(dreams), a few logical explanations remain unanswered:

1. Where is the Imam today?
2. Is he alone living somewhere, or does he too have a following like the Syedna?
3. If he has a following in today’s world, we would definitely know it, as they would be similar in belief and actions to the Dawoodi Bohras. Wouldn’t they?
4. Why is he still in seclusion?
5. Why does he not come out and proclaim himself? There is no apparent threat to his life or belief today.
6. We are made to believe that the Imam and Syedna correspond to each other by ‘ilhaam’, whereby the Imam comes in the Syedna’s dreams. Has Allah indeed given any man the power to come in another’s dream at will and correspond with him? Allah did not even give this kind of powers to His appointed Messengers!!
7. Is it the same 4 year old Imam Tayyeb alive today after these hundreds of years, or is it his descendants?
8. Today we live in a secular and non-Godly world. There would absolutely be no harm to the Imam’s life or mission if he were to reveal himself to mankind today (if there is indeed one to be revealed!).
9. How come the leadership never mention anything about the Imam, except his name?
10. And the most important question of all…. If this concept of the appointment of the Imam is so important and pivotal to Islam and its survival, how come nothing (absolutely nothing) has been mentioned about it in the Holy Quran? How come the Messenger of Allah (saws) never mentioned anything about this Imam and his seclusion? Did Allah and His Messenger (saws) forget to tell us about this very important aspect of Islam and its survival? Glory be to Allah! Allah and His Messenger (saws) did not forget anything that was needed for our guidance to Islam. If something is not from the Quran and Sunnah, then it does not form part of Islam… and there is absolutely nothing in either the Holy Quran or the Sunnah about this Imam, his seclusion, about the Dais, about their succession, about their superiority, about their correspondence through ‘ilham’, about …!!!! These are their wishful fantasies and their whims, which have absolutely no basis in the deen of Islam! Can you imagine the deen of Islam being based on these kind of stories…..

My dear brothers and sisters, this Islam is the deen of Truth from Allah Subhanah and based on nothing but the Truth. …. Not some mythology story of a four year old boy hiding in seclusion for approximately 800 years and having the power to correspond with the Syedna by coming in his dreams at will!!! Nothing in Islam is illogical, and this fantastic story of the Imam and the Dai does not have an iota of logic around it!!!!

What we do know is that the Holy Quran is the Book of Allah, which was revealed for our guidance. What we do know is that Mohamed ibn Abdulla (saws) was appointed the Last Messenger of Allah. What we do know is that the deen of Islam was revealed in completion before the death of the Messenger of Allah (saws), and no changes are allowed in that deen. What we must realize today, is that to practice Islam, we only need to follow two things … 1. The Holy Quran and 2. The Messenger of Allah (saws). If anyone is guiding from any other source than the above two divine sources, you can be assured of mis-guidance! If any Imam, Dai, Syedna, Bhaisaheb, Sheikh, Mullah, Aamil, Aayatollah, Moulvi, Peer, Mufti, or scholar is guiding and teaching us from the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (saws), fine … He is our brother in Islam. But if anybody is teaching or guiding us from any other source, then we leave them immediately and come back to the guidance and teaching of the Holy Quran and traditions of the Messenger of Allah (saws).

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=980&hilit=mola+in+t ... &start=150

zinger
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1007

Unread post by zinger » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:04 am

truth seeker100 wrote:
zinger wrote:@ TS100

super. thanks for answering. but like i said, i dont need to prove articles of our faith, and least of all to you
OK then. Why don't you want to prove your beliefs? I know it is because you are scared and don't have proof. According to your logic tomorrow I can start saying that Christian beliefs are in like with Islamic beliefs and that I don't need to prove them. Now will that be OK?
i would be ok. both believe in the oneness of God. Infact, Islam is in line with Judaism and Christianity

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1008

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:44 am

Infact, Islam is in line with Judaism and Christianity
If people had even a little bit of knowledge of Islam and even a little understanding of the Quran, they wouldn't be making such ignorant statements. Infact, if they had even a little bit of knowledge about Judaism and Christianity, they wouldn't be making such ignorant statements. There are dozens of places in the Quran where Allah has negated the above statement.

humanbeing
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1009

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:24 am

zinger wrote:. Infact, Islam is in line with Judaism and Christianity
This is a generic understanding of the masses. Judaisim and Christianity are set of beliefs added to concept of “one-god” that was introduced by the respective prophets. At most we can say that few principles of these faith are common, while it has evolved into opposing set of beliefs due to man-made innovations. Thankfully Quran being unchanged since its inception, Islamic principles are same but follower’s belief are diverse and imaginatively fantastic !

In short, we cannot really say Islamic belief are same or in line with Judaism or Christianity beleifs. Also due to fact that “Islamic Beleifs” differ from sect to sect and culture to culture and person to person !only commonality is belief in one god !

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1010

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:37 am

only commonality is belief in one god !
Unfortunately, that is not true. The Bohras have a god on earth who is different from the god in heavens. Infact, now they have an Al Hayy, the dead 52nd dai that has now become another God. Infact, every dead bohra dai is going to become a new god.

haqniwaat
Posts: 516
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1011

Unread post by haqniwaat » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:36 pm

anajmi wrote:
only commonality is belief in one god !
Unfortunately, that is not true. The Bohras have a god on earth who is different from the god in heavens. Infact, now they have an Al Hayy, the dead 52nd dai that has now become another God. Infact, every dead bohra dai is going to become a new god.
They are not gods, they are angels. Too little knowledge is a dangerous thing - especially about religion. No hard feelings. :-)

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1012

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:25 am

Angels that got their wings chopped off.

zinger
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1013

Unread post by zinger » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:34 am

anajmi wrote:
Infact, Islam is in line with Judaism and Christianity
If people had even a little bit of knowledge of Islam and even a little understanding of the Quran, they wouldn't be making such ignorant statements. Infact, if they had even a little bit of knowledge about Judaism and Christianity, they wouldn't be making such ignorant statements. There are dozens of places in the Quran where Allah has negated the above statement.

if you had even a little bit of knowledge of English, you wouldnt be making such ignorant posts. HB has already clarified what i was saying. Islam, Christianity and Judaism all 3, believe in 1 God.

Infact, HB took my argument one step further by very rightfully summing up that the differences have arisen due to man-made innovations.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1014

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:56 am

Judaism and Christianity themselves are man made innovations. They are a corrupted form of what was revealed by the earlier prophets as HB correctly pointed out. This is similar to the more closer man made innovations like bohra-ism and Fatimid beliefs. All man made innovations, no longer in line with Islam as revealed by the prophet (saw).

zinger
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1015

Unread post by zinger » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:58 am

anajmi wrote:Judaism and Christianity themselves are man made innovations. They are a corrupted form of what was revealed by the earlier prophets as HB correctly pointed out. This is similar to the more closer man made innovations like bohra-ism and Fatimid beliefs. All man made innovations, no longer in line with Islam as revealed by the prophet (saw).
My God :shock:

You are even more corrupted that i thought

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1016

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:01 am

I do not believe you to be capable of thought or thinking.

zinger
Posts: 2066
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1017

Unread post by zinger » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:05 am

anajmi wrote:I do not believe you to be capable of thought or thinking.

guess thats the best you can do bro. so you can have your moment of glory!

truth seeker100
Posts: 165
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1018

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:36 am

Zinger there is little common between islam and christianity. now if you think christianity and Judaism are in line with islam, then is it ok to believe jesus is god and that he Is our lord and savior? or according to Judaism is it ok for us muslims to believe jesus is not the messiah? stop trying any way you can to prove your fake Fatimid beliefs. it won't work

humanbeing
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1019

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:38 am

Interestingly Fatimid Bohra Belief is more in line with Christianity and Judaism wherein they believe resurrection of Jesus and salvation of Christians by intercession from jesus Christ on day of kayamat. Jews also believe that Moses will return through or at wailing wall in Israel to save jews.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#1020

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:25 am

Christianity doesn't believe in one God. Christianity has a concept of Trinity where there are 3 in 1 Gods. The father, the son and the holy ghost. Allah distances himself from the belief of Christianity in Surah Ikhlas where he says - Lam Yalid wa Lam Yulad. So Islam is not in line with Christianity.

As far as jews and judaism is concerned, if you read the Quran, over and over again, Allah is admonishing them for the crimes they committed against the messengers of Allah and against the message of Allah. The jews betrayed Musa (as) after he saved them from the pharoah. Why do they believe he will return to save them? The jews tried to crucify Isa (as). The jews believe that God and his messengers are subservient to them.

The problem with people like zinger is that in order to justify their own corrupted beliefs, they have to give legitimacy to other corrupted beliefs.