The True Imam - How would you verify?

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asad
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#31

Unread post by asad » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:40 am

If Imam has not come out of hiding then its for reason. And its better he doesnt come out only.

bohra_manus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#32

Unread post by bohra_manus » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:19 am

mustafanalwalla wrote:
ghulam muhammed wrote:@ progticide,

Before going further with this debate would you please verify the fact that bohras are told that Imam Tayyab who went into seclusion will himself appear at an appropriate time as this is exactly what even I have heard from some bohra amils. If that is the case then as per bohra beliefs the dai will only have to identify the real Imam Tayyab.

Is it Imam Tayyeb or ImmautZamaan?

I think it is the latter. There is no way that Imam Tayyab could be alive after so many years. ImmamutZamaan, correct me if im wrong, means the Imam of this Zamaanaa.

And i, BTW, have always heard the latter.

So it is possible that the Aamil's erred or you might have misunderstood them
I have heard the same thing "Imam-uz-zaman" not Imaam Tayyab will do his zuhoor some day.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:58 am

This thread was started by an abde to demonstrate the infallibility of the Dai and instead ended up demonstrating the invalidity of the Dai. This thread should be put up on the front page of this website.

progticide
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#34

Unread post by progticide » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:55 am

Fateh wrote: Salam bhai First of all i congratulates you for this fine topic.yes how we all, not how you verify.First we have all to verify which dai e mutalak is appointed by true Imam?I mean Alavi dai,our db dai, sulaimani dai or may be more.And is true Imam surely depend upon any dai to prove that he is Imam?
Fateh,
The True Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah. This shuld answer your question.

But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat. Those who dont agree with this point of view it is their choice. Those who are willing to atleast think about what I have expressed may further read Holy Quran, Surah Al'Isra, Ayat 71 (Holy Quran 17:71) [Read Yusuf ali version for the correct translation of the word "Imam" as "Leader"]

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#35

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:15 am

And what happens to the generations of abdes who had no Imam and just a make shift Dai?

fearAllah
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#36

Unread post by fearAllah » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:18 am

progticide wrote:
Fateh wrote: Salam bhai First of all i congratulates you for this fine topic.yes how we all, not how you verify.First we have all to verify which dai e mutalak is appointed by true Imam?I mean Alavi dai,our db dai, sulaimani dai or may be more.And is true Imam surely depend upon any dai to prove that he is Imam?
Fateh,
The True Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah. This shuld answer your question.

But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat. Those who dont agree with this point of view it is their choice. Those who are willing to atleast think about what I have expressed may further read Holy Quran, Surah Al'Isra, Ayat 71 (Holy Quran 17:71) [Read Yusuf ali version for the correct translation of the word "Imam" as "Leader"]

Lol man u make me laugh, introduce the Imam with the followers of the Daawat of which 95% are gujratis lol, seems that the Imam will be from Gujrat hey? lol, the Dai has wasted 100 years of his life for nothing....The Dai's job is to introduce/convert all the people of the world to the Daawat, but it seems that he is more busy celebrating birthdays and hunting :D

humanbeing
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#37

Unread post by humanbeing » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:33 am

progticide wrote:The True Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah. This shuld answer your question.

But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat.
We are dependent on Dai who would lead us to introduce to Imam !! so Imam would be the one who Dai introduces to us !! But Imam is not dependent on Dai’s introduction, but we are dependent on Dai to tell us who is Imam.

So If a person introduces himself to bohra, that he is true Imam, we need to look at Dai for confirmation because we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to identify Imam !! But Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah to prove his identity !!

Humsafar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#38

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:51 am

progticide wrote:But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam...
And pray, how's he going to lead us to that maqaam? Through extravagant and pompous birthday celebrations? I hope not.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:08 am

Actually, when the Imam descends he is going to have a hard time figuring out which Dai is the correct one. I think the first Dai to be rejected will be the DB Dai. He kills innocent animals. He has converted his followers to abde idiots. He celebrates his birthdays like a one year old.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#40

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:34 pm

progticide wrote:
But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat.
i have asked this before. what if that imam, who does not need the bohra dai to introduce the abde idiots as the imam's followers (as much as allah does not need a dai to establish his law on earth), were to declare that the progressive bohras are his REAL followers and not the abde idiots who have been led astray in worshipping a mortal being and kissing his hands and feet and showering him with money and howling like banshees yelling 'ya hussain', with crocodile tears, gorging on feasts post maatam etc?

will the abde idiots then abandon their heretic dai or continue to worship him and disown the rightful imam??

Mazakyo
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#41

Unread post by Mazakyo » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:21 pm

Oye anajmi

MKL kya haal hai tera? Kaam dhanda bhi kar raha hai ya forum pey hee chipka rehta hai?

humanbeing
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#42

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:14 am

progticide wrote:Those who are willing to atleast think about what I have expressed may further read Holy Quran, Surah Al'Isra, Ayat 71 (Holy Quran 17:71) [Read Yusuf ali version for the correct translation of the word "Imam" as "Leader"]
Hi Progticide,
Orthodox Bohra are not allowed to read translation of Quran! There is no “Raza” from sayedna sahib to read translation of Quran. Then how come you are referring to Translation and also giving a reference !

Muslim First
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#43

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:31 pm

Verse 17:71-71
The word “imam” is used in the same manner in verse 17:71-72. It is used to refer to a person’s book of deeds.

Allah says:

Quran, 17:71-72: “One day We shall call together all human beings with their respective record book (imam): those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least. But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most stray from the Path.”

Ahlus Sunnah Tafseer of Verse 17:71-72

The Tafseer of Al-Qurtubi states that the word “imam” is used to refer to a book which contains every person’s deeds. The Ibn Kathir commentary takes this viewpoint, as well as the Tafseer At-Tabari.

Shia Tafseer of Verse 17:71-72

Considering the passionate zeal with which many Shia lay-persons advance verse 17:71 as referring exclusively to the “Infallible Imams,” it is interesting to note that none of the major Shia commentaries took this to be the only possible interpretation.

Indeed, there are prominent Shia commentaries that have listed some of the same views expressed by the Sunni commentators without criticizing such positions. For example, in the Tibbyan Tafseer by Tusi, it is explicitly mentioned that the scholars have differed on the meaning of “imam” in this verse. Tusi goes on to say that some took it as meaning the Prophet the people followed, others as the book of records, the book that was revealed unto the nation, the deities they worshipped, or the people they took as their leaders. The Majma ul Bayan Tafseer also gives the same possibilities, and adds that imam may also mean “their mothers.”

Good Imams and Bad Imams

Both the Ahlus Sunnah and the Shia believe that a person will be raised on the Day of Judgment with the same people whom they loved and followed. The pious people will be raised up with Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the Mu’minoon. Meanwhile, the evil people will be raised up with the likes of Yezid and Firaon. The Shia believe that the “evil Sunnis” (i.e. Nasibis) will be raised up with the likes of Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه), Umar (رضّى الله عنه), and Uthman (رضّى الله عنه). These are the “imams” that the Nasibi Sunnis will be raised up with, and the Shia say that these evil imams are mentioned in the following two verses of the Quran:

Quran, 9:12: “Fight the leaders (imams) of kufr.”

Quran, 28:41: “And We made them leaders (imams) who call towards the Fire.”

Thus, one of the opinions amongst the Shia commentaries is that the word “imam” in verse 17:71 actually does refer to a person. The Shia scholars say that the pious people will be raised up with a “good imam” whereas the evil will be raised up with an “evil imam.” The Shia commentaries made the distinction between a “rightful” imam by which the good servants of Allah will be called, and the evil imams (leaders) by which the sinners will be called. This can be seen from commentaries such as al-Mizan, where Allamah Tabatabai valiantly endeavors to show that the “imam” can only mean a human leader. Nonetheless, even he accepts that everyone will not be called by the “Infallible Imam,” and that the evil people will be called by their own leaders.

Common Sense

We have seen that Tafseer of verse 17:71 confirms that the word “imam” is in reference to a book. The truth is that even intuitive sense dictates this. The entire rest of verse 17:71, including the next verse (17:72), is talking about a book. Let us read the verses by creating a blank where the word “imam” appears:

Quran, 17:71-72: “One day We shall call together all human beings with their respective _________: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least. But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most stray from the Path.”

If we asked an unbiased observor to fill in the blank above with either “Infallible Imam” or “Book of Deeds,” which of the two would he pick? Which would make more sense intuitively speaking? Of course, the unbiased observor would pick “Book of Deeds” since this conforms with the rest of the sentence in which Allah is talking about a record given in the right hand which will be read. Surely an Infallible Imam will not be read, since we cannot read people.

Al-Qurtubi points out that the phrase “those who are given their record in their right hand will read it…” that comes immediately after the word “imaamihim” in effect strengthens the position of those who maintain that the “imam” in this verse refers to the Book of Deeds. In addition, the use of the word “imam” in verse 36:12 to refer to the Preserved Tablet further solidifies the arguments by this group. We were forced to conclude that verse 36:12 refers to a book, so we should also deal with verse 17:71 in a consistent manner.

Conclusion of Verse 17:71-72

It can be seen that there is no consensus among the Shia Tafseers as to the term “imam” signifying Infallibles only, or that this is the only meaning that can be given to the word “imam.” The classical Shia scholars and Tafseer have said that there are a variety of things that the word “imam” can mean, and it seems that the strongest of these opinions is that the word “imam” refers to a book. Hence, this verse cannot be used to answer “The Quran Challenge”; this verse cannot be used to prove that the Shia doctrine of Imamah exists in the Quran. How can the Shia convince the Ahlus Sunnah that this verse refers to Infallible Imams when there are even Shia scholars and Tafseer of their own which do not agree with them and who say that the word “imam” means something else other than a human being? Not even the Shia Ulema are in a consensus as to the meaning of the word, so how can the Shia throw this verse in the face of the Ahlus Sunnah?

And even the Shia scholars and Tafseer which state that the word “imam” refers to a human being say that this verse means that the good people will be raised with good imams and the evil people with evil imams. This is an admission that the word “imam” refers to the general term “leader” and does not denote a specific rank or a distinct position like Prophethood, since evil imams are not said to be divinely appointed. So even if the Ahlus Sunnah lets the Shia get away with saying that verse 17:71 refers to a human being, then we say that this does not prove Infallible Imamah since it refers to “leaders” in general and not specifically twelve Infallible Imams. Those of the Ahlus Sunnah look forward to being raised with their noble leaders such as Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه), Umar (رضّى الله عنه), Uthman (رضّى الله عنه), and Ali (رضّى الله عنه).

Both verse 36:12 and 17:71 refer to the same thing and use the word “imam” in a similar manner, namely to reference a book. Indeed, anyone who has to use these two verses to prove his doctrine is obviously in a very desperate situation, and the very fact that he does such a thing is indicative of the weakeness of his position.
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... index.html

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#44

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:07 am

Anyone know the root of the word "Imam"?

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:30 am

Our shia brethren have a reverse kind of a relationship with the Quran. Muslims are expected to read the Quran and figure out what they should or shouldn't do. Shias first figure out what they want to do and then try to find ayahs of the Quran to fit their dos and donts. Which is the reason why we end up with these ridiculous interpretations of the Quran.

Muslim First
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#46

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:36 am

don't forget br. anjmi

Foundation of Shia sect is to worship Allah SWT thru Imams (Hazir, Gayb or Zaman), Dais, Ayatulaas.
So that is why their focus is on interpretation of every Aya of Qur'an is different then obious.

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#47

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:04 pm

anajmi wrote:Anyone know the root of the word "Imam"?
أ م م

إمام ج أئمة

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#48

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:18 pm

Muslim First wrote:don't forget br. anjmi

Foundation of Shia sect is to worship Allah SWT thru Imams (Hazir, Gayb or Zaman), Dais, Ayatulaas.
So that is why their focus is on interpretation of every Aya of Qur'an is different then obious.
Let me correct you for the nth time.

That is not the foundation although that appears to be the practice, especially, among Bohras.

The primary form of canonical worship, - the 5 faraa'id, sunnah and nafl prayers - from niyyah to salaam, does not invoke Imams or Dais. In 'tahiyyah' before salaam, there is mention of Ibrahim, Muhammad and Ali. Muhammad is called نعم الرسول, the most excellent Messenger; and Ali is called نعم الولي, the most excellent Protector. However, no prayer is addressed to them.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#49

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:20 pm

Thanks

Does the word "Amama" (in front of) come from the same root?

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#50

Unread post by porus » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:20 pm

anajmi wrote:Thanks

Does the word "Amama" (in front of) come from the same root?
Yes.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:44 pm

Thanks again.

Rationalist
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#52

Unread post by Rationalist » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:39 pm

progticide wrote: But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat. Those who dont agree with this point of view it is their choice. Those who are willing to atleast think about what I have expressed may further read Holy Quran, Surah Al'Isra, Ayat 71 (Holy Quran 17:71) [Read Yusuf ali version for the correct translation of the word "Imam" as "Leader"]

Accepted. Dai-e-Mutlaq would lead you to Imam. But someone who lives a luxurious lavish life and rather than helping his poor followers loots them off their hard earned money.. him being your Dai-e-Mutlaq.. he wouldnt lead you anywhere near to the Imam.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#53

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:16 pm

Rationalist wrote:
...someone who lives a luxurious lavish life and rather than helping his poor followers loots them .....he wouldnt lead you anywhere near to the Imam.
and that someone, who is an imposter, charlatan and slave master is supposed to authenticate the true imam when he decides to re-appear (according to the abde bohra regressives) !!!

if such fairy tales are possible, then even dawood ibrahim can lead you to the imam!

progticide
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#54

Unread post by progticide » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:19 am

Are you progs mentally retarded or are you trying to escape answering this topic with your worthless rhetoric?

I'll give you some motivation. Lets see if you are capable to answer after this.

Forget mainstream DBs. Assume for a moment that mainstream DBs never existed. Assume you are the only surviving flag-bearers of Ismaili Tayyibi faith. Assume that you are the only group to be defined as DBs after the passing away of 46th Dai or 26th dai or 29th dai whichever you want to choose (The above is just assumption, dont take it to your heads literally). Now, without any reference to any Dai or institution or individual associated with current mainstream DB fold, just answer the questions listed at the beginning of the topic.


Prof. Poo (Porus)? Doctor Mubarak? Willing to attempt now?

Muslim First
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#55

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:11 am

by progticide
Subject of Discussion: How would the mainstream DBs and Progressives verify the Imam-uz-Zaman’s identity upon his Zuhoor?
Br Progticide
Before you ask about Imam-us-Zaman
do you know this issue of Imamat is a phoney and there is not a single conclusive Aya in Qur'an or sunna which requires Muslims to have a living guide from Ahal-e-bait,
Islam is not a private "Zaidat" of Prophet SAW and Ali RA is not a sole master franchise holder of this enterprise. islam is religion to worship Allah SWT so you can walk straight path and achive salvation in afterlife without going thru punishment. Only way for Muslims to follow path shpwn to Prophet.

If it was true that Imamat is mist to be Muslim then Allah would have made sure that we would have one line of Imams always visible and present on this earth.

Now let others answer your questions about your Imam ZAman.
There is no such thing as Imam Zaman and Dai ship etc etc is all innovation by shelfish human beings.

Wasallam

Rationalist
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#56

Unread post by Rationalist » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:22 am

Muslim First wrote:
by progticide

Now let others answer your questions about your Imam ZAman.
There is no such thing as Imam Zaman and Dai ship etc etc is all innovation by shelfish human beings.
I assume you have joined mainstream islam, and i respect your views. However to bring reform to this community, don't you think first we need to show that we belong to it, we follow the basic tenants of bohraism. By declaring that there is no need of imam, no need of dai you are being like an atheists who enters in a debate between christians and muslims and says theres no god, no prophets - so stop beating your head about it :D

Human
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#57

Unread post by Human » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:16 pm

Muslim First wrote: There is no such thing as Imam Zaman and Dai ship etc etc is all innovation by shelfish human beings.
MF, I'd be equally convinced if someone said that "There is no such thing as God or Quran etc etc is all innovation by selfish human beings"

Muslim First
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#58

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:09 pm

Human wrote: MF, I'd be equally convinced if someone said that "There is no such thing as God or Quran etc etc is all innovation by selfish human beings"
Idea of God is Universal among Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus etc etc. Quran is physically there. There is credible evidence that Muhammad recited it first. You may question whether it was revealed to him or not. Muslims believe it it was. So Innovated God is accepted by billions, If Qur'an was a innovation then Shellfish Prophet did not make much money out of it.

What is innovation is present day Bohrism where Shellfish, greedy family is sucking you, your brothers and sisters dry. Ask any main stream Muslim what he pays to Mullas for his religion.
I will tell you what I pay. Zilch to Mulla, None to Masajids where I pray, except whatever I want to put in collection Box. I pay Zakat to deserving charity.

SBM
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#59

Unread post by SBM » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:29 pm

None to Masajids where I pray, except whatever I want to put in collection Box. I pay Zakat to deserving charity.
And that is why many Masaajids in North America are suffering financially and maintaining the property is hardship on those few donors
You should pay your fair share for the maintenance of the Masjid. Zakat is all together different ball game
If everyone thinks like you then who pays the salary of the Mulla and other expenses of maintaining the masjid as well as utility bills. Every one thinks some one else will pay and since it is Allah's house Allah will take care of it a wrong hypothesis

Human
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#60

Unread post by Human » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:32 pm

Muslim First wrote:
Human wrote: MF, I'd be equally convinced if someone said that "There is no such thing as God or Quran etc etc is all innovation by selfish human beings"
Idea of God is Universal among Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus etc etc. Quran is physically there. There is credible evidence that Muhammad recited it first. You may question whether it was revealed to him or not. Muslims believe it it was. So Innovated God is accepted by billions, If Qur'an was a innovation then Shellfish Prophet did not make much money out of it.

What is innovation is present day Bohrism where Shellfish, greedy family is sucking you, your brothers and sisters dry. Ask any main stream Muslim what he pays to Mullas for his religion.
I will tell you what I pay. Zilch to Mulla, None to Masajids where I pray, except whatever I want to put in collection Box. I pay Zakat to deserving charity.
I agree totally and I am not trying to advocate the doings of Dai and his family as correct. They surely are a corrupt money making and money laundering institution like many others.
I'm just questioning the 'belief' involved. Bohras 'believe' the Dai to be the one they should follow and thus they do not question what he says or does; maybe they are too scared? Anyways just as you mentioned "Muslims believe quran was revealed to Mohammed", its a 'belief' that is followed by Muslims. People can have their own beliefs and some beliefs would be more popular or widespread than others but it doesn't make them necessarily true.
I have seen a few abdes who are happy believing in the dai and socialising in the community (only). They are quite happy with their lives and even there are certain abdes who are highly educated and obviously can see that there's something fishy going on in the royal family with all that money, they don't mind as they say they're happy as they are.