The True Imam - How would you verify?

[SBM]

Adam
Let me try one more time
If Syenda Taher Saifuddin( 51st Dai in case you forgot that he was Dai) denied the existence of an Imam how do you justify that a Dai will validate the true Imam since every Dai after 51st is appointed by his predecessor and supposedly they imparted their knowledge and Ilm on the successors
What do you say to corruption in local Jamaats and accountability and transparency as being asked numerous times by HB
Simple Answers without asking me about my belief and faith and all those gibberish posting you and your cohorts Progticide has been doing

[ghulam muhammed]

All along Adam was trying hard that the progs categorically announce their 'leader' inspite of knowing that they do not have any one (like the dai) to whom the progs bend down in submission. He very well knows that there is no single authority among progs who runs the movement by remote control, a fact which they envy as in their hearts they too are tired of the authoritarian rule remote controlled from saifee mahal. In case if a prog showed any inclination towards one single person then they would have prepared a warehouse of ammunition to attack that person on this forum. Hence they are left with no one to blame in their individual capacity, a fact which cannot be said about their dai. Moreover it is hard for them to imagine a world with no religious leader as it is in their psyche to submit themselves to a one single person no matter how corrupt, unislamic or power hungry he may be.............. A leader is a MUST, leave aside his credentials !! They want everyone to tow their line and if someone refuses to then they are deemed to be hellbound. Hence it is drilled into their minds that "ola musalman" are hellbound as they have NO leader, according to which a miniscule cult comprising hardly 1% of the over a billion muslims are the ONLY rightous ones !!

[profastian]

Imam al-Tayyib's satr is a fundamental dogma of Bohras and, of course, I have no objection to them hanging on to it. The debate on this thread is a red herring started by Dai-worshippers to demand that proggies worship the Dai too. In the process, the myth had to be exposed.

Wah ji wah, buddhe ne kia solid arguments di hain imam ke naa hone ki.
Buddha sethiya gaya hai.
Teri awqaat nahi hai kisi myth ko expose karne ki

[progticide]

In the epic of Mahabharata, during the war in Kurukshetra, one of the agreements between both the warring parties was that they would cease all hostilities at sunset as soon as the siren is sounded. This agreement was honoured by both sides as long as the elders were commanding the forces on both sides. However, toward the ending days of the war, the Kauravas, who suffered most losses and there remained no strong commander of their forces since most of them were killed, started to violate this agreement and even after the end of day siren was sounded continued to attack the opposition forces. Nevertheless, the Kauravas lost the battle eventually.

Moral of the Story - This topic has reached its logical end. Let me say it again:

The End.

[abde53]

Imam al-Tayyib's satr is a fundamental dogma of Bohras and, of course, I have no objection to them hanging on to it. The debate on this thread is a red herring started by Dai-worshippers to demand that proggies worship the Dai too. In the process, the myth had to be exposed.

Wah ji wah, buddhe ne kia solid arguments di hain imam ke naa hone ki.
Buddha sethiya gaya hai.
Teri awqaat nahi hai kisi myth ko expose karne ki

profastian bhai
do we have to go to proggies level of using such things. i have been reading many posts and i admire your stand but why use such language this is not the teaching of our shafiq bawa TUS and it gives them more to insult our moula

[Humsafar]

In the epic of Mahabharata, during the war in Kurukshetra, one of the agreements between both the warring parties was that they would cease all hostilities at sunset as soon as the siren is sounded. This agreement was honoured by both sides as long as the elders were commanding the forces on both sides. However, toward the ending days of the war, the Kauravas, who suffered most losses and there remained no strong commander of their forces since most of them were killed, started to violate this agreement and even after the end of day siren was sounded continued to attack the opposition forces. Nevertheless, the Kauravas lost the battle eventually.

Moral of the Story - This topic has reached its logical end. Let me say it again:

The End.

Right, it has reached the logical end. You started a pointless topic to indirectly prove the inevitability and infallibility of the Dai, but you abdes ended up with an egg on your collective face. That, my dear Kaurav, is the logical end.

[anajmi]

In the epic Ramayana, Ram gave a warning to Sita not to cross the line. Well, actually, it was Laxman that gave the warning. But Sita crossed the line. The result was that Hanuman had to burn down Lanka because Sita crossed line.

The moral of the story is that if the Imam comes, the Dai will be whacked.

The End.

[SBM]

ADMIN:
THIS TOPIC HAS GONE ONE TOO LONG AND RUN OUT OF ITS USEFULNESS. TIME TO LOCK IT

[progticide]

The usefulness of this topic cannot be understood by morons who have only contributed toward useless comments and unrelated posts on this topic. For such people, every thread is an occassion for them to orchestrate a cacophony of insensible and worthless arguments, most of the time even without reading the subject title or previous postings.

For others, both DBs and Prrogressives who have sincerely tried to engage above in a fruitful discussion with whatever amount of contribution, irrespective of their stand and belief, but relevant to the subject of discussion, this topic has certainly been an eye-opener.

So, before commenting on the outcome of the topic and its usefulness, participants should first evaluate what has been their contribution to this topic and leave the judgement on the usefulness of this topic for the future.

I shall want to revisit and resume discussion on this thread again in future, at an opportune time.

So, hopefully this topic shall remain alive, though in hibernation, open to members who want to contribute anything knowledgable and pertinent to the subject of this topic.

I guess, it's not The End yet.

[anajmi]

In the epic mahabharata, shikhandini got rejected by Bheeshm and decided to take birth as shikhandi.

Moral of the story - progticide = shikhandi.

[SBM]

Prgoticide
I am sure you are smart enough to verify the True Imam once Dai verifies but can you verify the true needy, people in our community
Why you are so quiet about "Poverty in Ahmedabad". The people who are suffering are the true followers of Syedna and Kothari Goons. They do not have luxury to argue and debate with you while they are being treated as second or third class Mumineens by people like you and Adam
So come back to reality on ground. Tell us what the Kothari Goons will be doing to take care of those in need instead of worrying about verifying the True Imam

[Humsafar]

Moral of the Story - This topic has reached its logical end. Let me say it again:
The End.

I guess, it's not The End yet.

There was not much logic in it after all, eh, as we suspected. No wonder, anajmi calls you abde idiots.

[progticide]

In the epic mahabharata, shikhandini got rejected by Bheeshm and decided to take birth as shikhandi.

Moral of the story - progticide = shikhandi.

Shikhandi was part of the Pandava forces.
So, you have accepted that you are from the Kauravas side who were defeated miserably.

Thus, my above brief on the Mahabharata subject holds true for you and your types. Thanks for vindicating my stand. The character of Jaydarath in Mahabharata matches your style.

[anajmi]

As we had always imagined. Leave the Quran to us and teach the mahabharatha to your kids. Make sure your husband knows about your past adventures.

[ghulam muhammed]

So, hopefully this topic shall remain alive, though in hibernation, open to members who want to contribute anything knowledgable and pertinent to the subject of this topic

The topic will definately remain alive unless abdes like Adam are not able to refute the claims of Dai Abe Abdellah's fallibility and his spat with the Imam as questioned by porus !!

[SBM]

HERE IS HOW I AND MANY WILL IDENTIFY THE TRUE IMAM
A IMAM WHO UNDERSTANDS THE POVERTY FACED BY MANY, UNDERSTANDS THE HARDSHIP OF THE COMMONER. AN IMAM WHO WOULD NOT BE ATTENDING ZIYAFATS WHILE HIS FOLLOWER ARE HUNGRY, A TRUE IMAM WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FEEL HAPPY WHILE HIS FOLLOWERS ARE MISERABLE
A TRUE IMAM WILL NOT FLY IN FIRST CLASS OR BY HELICOPTER WHILE HIS FOLLOWER IS PULLING RICKSHAW. A TRUE IMAM WILL NOT SLEEP IN COMFORTABLE AIR CONDITIONED PALACE WHILE HIS FOLLOWERS ARE SLEEPING ON CONCRETE FLOOR IN SMALL JHOPAD PATTI
A TRUE IMAM WILL NOT BE VISITING SAIFEE MAHAL BUT WILL BE VISITING AND COMFORTING DOWN TRODDEN FOLLOWERS AND HELPING THEM
A TRUE IMAM WILL NOT BE FELICITING THE MURDERS OF HIS FOLLOWERS INSTEAD WILL BE COMFORTING THE VICTIMS OF THAT MURDER
AND FOR ADAM MY BELIEF
ABDE BY BIRTH, FREE BY CHOICE

[ghulam muhammed]

For such people, every thread is an occassion for them to orchestrate a cacophony of insensible and worthless arguments

For an abde, every debate becomes an insensible and worthless argument if it does not glorify the dai and his zaadas, any debate that questions their conduct is worthless. So much for the brain washed sabak goers.

[Adam]

SBM

HERE IS HOW I AND MANY WILL IDENTIFY THE TRUE IMAM

Although you said this is how you'll identify the Imam, you've just worded out the characteristics.
Helping the poor is very general statement. Mother Teressa & You have also helped the Poor. Are you the Imam?
How will you verify A from B?
That is the question that the "Imam Believing Opposition" hasn't been able to answer, yet.

[stranger]

Bro Adam,
I have a query in my mind, a genuine one :-

How would Da'i (TUS) would verify the True Imam (AS) ?
&
How would Imam (AS) would verify the True Da'i (TUS) ?

[aqs]

Bro Adam,
I have a query in my mind, a genuine one :-

How would Da'i (TUS) would verify the True Imam (AS) ?
&
How would Imam (AS) would verify the True Da'i (TUS) ?

In continuation of Br. Stranger, After Hurat Al Maleka no Dai has known the whereabouts of Imam. So in essence Dai doesn't know who is the Imam or where he is. So how will he verify, if some one claims to be the Imam. Is their any process or tests mentioned in any books.

[Adam]

How would Da'i (TUS) would verify the True Imam (AS) ?
&
How would Imam (AS) would verify the True Da'i (TUS) ?

From my understanding it is as follows:

- The Imam is the one who has appointed the Dai in the first place, and he (The Imam) will verify the Dai.
- As in case of the first Satr, the Imam send Dais namely Abi Sufyaan AS & Dai Hulwanni RA, Dai Ab al Qasim RA & Dai Abi Adullah RA to carry out the preparations and communication for Zuhoor.

Thus
Dawoodi Bohra belief.
The Dai will verify his followers towards the True Imam.


Proggies, still not sure or very confused about the answer

They spend their entire life insulting the Dai and do not follow his guidance. They don't follow the Dai, and have no leader to verify.

OR - These 5 gentlemen will verify the Imam?
1. Prof. Mehdi Hasan
2. Mulla Taher bhai Lokhandwala
3. Janab Sajjad Hussain KG
4. Janab Peer Ali
5. Janab Aaqib Palana Wala

Confusion confusion.

[stranger]

How would Da'i (TUS) would verify the True Imam (AS) ?
&
How would Imam (AS) would verify the True Da'i (TUS) ?

From my understanding it is as follows:

- The Imam is the one who has appointed the Dai in the first place, and he (The Imam) will verify the Dai.
- As in case of the first Satr, the Imam send Dais namely Abi Sufyaan AS & Dai Hulwanni RA, Dai Ab al Qasim RA & Dai Abi Adullah RA to carry out the preparations and communication for Zuhoor.

Thus
Dawoodi Bohra belief.
The Dai will verify his followers towards the True Imam.

you mean to say : similarly the Imam will verify the Da'i, not the other way round ?

[humanbeing]

There is lot of verifications to be done !

Dai will verify True Imam or True Imam will verify True Dai ?

But True Imam does not need anyone to verify his authenticity, but for DBs, Dai will verify the True Imam.

The Dai will verify his followers towards the True Imam.

From the above post, now Dai will also verify his followers towards the True Imam. So everyone needs to be verified Imam, Dai and Followers.

They spend their entire life insulting the Dai and do not follow his guidance. They don't follow the Dai, and have no leader to verify.

How can one say proggies have spent entire life insulting the Dai, who will verify the true Imam. Has it been declared that Current Dai will verify the true Imam ?

[SBM]

Adam

Although you said this is how you'll identify the Imam, you've just worded out the characteristics.

Should not the characteristics one of the most important criteria. When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) started the message of Allah the only reason many believed him because he was known by his characteristics of being honest, helping and down to earth, People believed in him because they knew he never lied in his life and never cheated anyone.

[Doctor]

Bro Adam,
I have a query in my mind, a genuine one :-

How would Da'i (TUS) would verify the True Imam (AS) ?
&
How would Imam (AS) would verify the True Da'i (TUS) ?

In continuation of Br. Stranger, After Hurat Al Maleka no Dai has known the whereabouts of Imam. So in essence Dai doesn't know who is the Imam or where he is. So how will he verify, if some one claims to be the Imam. Is their any process or tests mentioned in any books.

Syyedi va Molai va Mukasir Sahab; Aaka Khan Ji ibn Feer Ji, Udaipur has given names of Fatimi Imams after Molana Imam Tayyeb (a).

[Adam]

you mean to say : similarly the Imam will verify the Da'i, not the other way round ?

Imam doesn't need to verify the Dai. It is the Imam who has appointed the Dai.

The followers of the Dai will follow/verify the Imam through the Dai.
That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

Proggies are just a confused bunch. Not here nor there.

[Doctor]

I believe that Quran uses age old fables as a teaching device. We need not take everything it states literally. Creation of Adam, Virgin birth, Isa being raised to heaven, Isa talking in the cradle are all fables. If you apply similar fable to Imam al-Tayyib, you are unwittingly suggesting that 'his decision to go into satr' is also a fable.

"I believe" - all you wrote is subject to your personal whims and fancies.

"We need not take everything it states literally." - just because you are saying?

Porus bhai, i have high respect for you and will always be there. It is shocking to see, at other place you said, you consider Panjatan to be Masoom (errorless). when same Panjatan narrate Quran or say about creation of Aadam (a) or birth of Isa (a) - u adopt dichotomy - u say they are fable! If you consider Panjatan as Masoom then why do not you regard their statements as also Masoom (errorless)?

I guess yuo are senior and have great collection of Fatimi literature. And you consider Panjatan as Masoom. Love of Panjatan is above that of parents, spouse and kids - it is very sad that you do not address Panjatan with prefix Mola and Suffix (alayhiss alam), you refer them with first name as if you and them are equal!!! Will you speak to your friends mother father with their first name or do you also add some prefix/suffix along with their name?

Imams are never born as Imams. They are chosen by an incumbent Imam in a process of 'nuss'. If he was born and every Imam believed that, how would you account for multiple Imams making claims for Imamat themselves?

Dawoodi Bohra stand is: Imam is born as Imam. They are not chosen, they are merely declared in the process of 'Nuss'. History is filled with many con mens who have claimed to be Imam including the one presently residing in London. Clouds of false claim cannot lie the prsence of Sun.

By the way, no one except Allah is omnipotent.

...Ya mazharal ajayabe, ya Murtaza Ali.

While there is no categorical proof that Imam al-Tayyib was killed in infancy, that is the inference, based on exhaustive research, of non-partisan scholars. Neither do you nor anyone else have any categorical proof that the Imam survived the coup d'teat. You have to believe that he survived otherwise it negates your faith. I do not begrudge you your faith.

There is dichotomy in the former and later part of your statement. Where else true Bohra Ismailiya Shia scholars do not make dichotomy. Their research and proof are precisely categorical on not only the survival of Imam Tayyeb, but also the survival of the chain of Mustakar Imam from the first Aadam Qulli till present Imam-uz-zaman and till the last day of Earth (Qayamat Sugra). Mukasir Sahab Syyedi Khan Ji Feer (Udaipur) has given the list of Imams as well after Molana Imam Tayyeb (a).

[stranger]

Imam doesn't need to verify the Dai. It is the Imam who has appointed the Dai.

But there are multiple Da'i available, Dawoodi, Sulemani, alavi and Nagpuri. In that Case, How would Imam(as) conclude that which chain of Dai belongs to Truely appointed Da'is till date ?

[porus]

Doctor bhai saheb,

I too have great respect for you.

Respectfully, I do not take some of the events that Quran describes literally.

Take one example. I believe that the 'Theory of Evolution' is a reasonable explanation about mankind's origin than the Quran. Similarly for other statements in the Quran that I have mentioned. Of course, they are my personal opinions.

Your views are statements of belief based on specific 'Faith'. It is up to you to consider some Quran ayats to be literal or metaphorical 'truth'. In a public forum, you should expect your views to be challenged.

My views on 'Masoomiyat' of Panjatan are based on my readings of the Quran. They are my personal views. Just like the Quran, Panjatan too would use the Quran and its stories for teaching.

No one respects Panjatan more than I do. You should assume that every time I write their names I incorporate tahiyyat and slawaat along with them. I omit those in writing to make my writing a bit less uncluttered. I extend that respect to all Imams and Duaat too.

My approach is that of a modern scholar. I accept the 'Truth' of the Quran and its origin. However, I reserve the right to make my own interpretations, albeit, with the help of 1400 years of scholarship of the Quran that is now freely available to us, thanks largely to the Internet

[porus]

After Hurat Al Maleka no Dai has known the whereabouts of Imam. So in essence Dai doesn't know who is the Imam or where he is. So how will he verify, if some one claims to be the Imam. Is their any process or tests mentioned in any books.

Welcome back brother aqs. While agree with your first sentence above, I believe that even Hurrat al-Malika did not know the whereabouts of Imam al-Tayyib following the assassination of Imam Aamir. Nor had she ever met him.

Imam doesn't need to verify the Dai. It is the Imam who has appointed the Dai.

The followers of the Dai will follow/verify the Imam through the Dai.
That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

A couple of untruths in Adam's statements:

1. No Imam ever appointed Dai al-Mutlaq.

2. I accept that abdes believe that only the Dai will point out the Imam when, and if, he appears. However, as far as I know, there is no book published prior to the assassination of Imam Aamir that specifies that belief. This issue (of verification) has never featured anywhere except on this board. That is out of the desire of Dai-worshippers to 'put the proggies down and show them their place'.