Al Zulfiqar ?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Adam
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Al Zulfiqar ?

#1

Unread post by Adam » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:53 am

Since he dedicated a thread for me, I thought of returning the favour:
AL ZULFIQAR.
What does he stand for? And what are his religious beliefs?

Muslim? Yes or No?
Belief in Prophet Mohammed?
Belief in Ali AS and Ahlul Bayt AS?

He's been dodging this question on multiple occasions, or maybe too confused to answer.
However, recently he posted this, which sort of broke ground, but still leaves us confused:
in that case none of the reformists will bother to reply. thanks!


Does he consider himself a DB "Reformist" ?

Please clarify. To the point. Sweet and Simple.

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#2

Unread post by Adam » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:05 pm

To answer Al Zulfiqars comments which he posted here http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 035#p93035
But he didn't answer the basic questions I posted above though :(
the agenda is very simple:
the dai and his establishment must be fully accountable to the community. all accounts and actions must be transparent, honest and above board.

The Dai is accountable only to his Leader the Imam. The Prophet was only accountable to Allah.
the dai and his establishment cannot intimidate and bully members and threaten with excommunication and denial of services and facilities.
Excommunication is an Islam/Fatimid act. Read up your Fatimid texts if you claim to be a "Bohra".
dai has no business in the secular lives of his followers, he is only a spiritual guide and should remain within that sphere only.
Islam is NOT just for religious deeds, it's a way of life, and that includes everything. The Prophet was a part of every Muslims "secular lives", he even taught/commanded the followers how to go to the toilet! That is the deed of every Imam AS after the Prophet. Same thing.
dai and his family should lead a life of simplicity and avoid pomp, show, glamour and ayyashi, whereby he and his family act as if they are blue blooded 'royals' and his subjects are treated as slaves.
You consider yourself a "reformist Bohra", so do you believe the Nabi Sulaiman & Fatimid Imams living pomp incorrect?
dai's family has no role in the religious lives and routine of bohras.

Already answered above.
they cannot demand to be treated as 'royals'.
The Fatimids did. Same system.
dai should act responsibly and resolve to prevent the present corruption, nepotism and abuse of authority in our community.
Justice is being served.
dai should return the powers of each individual jamaat and let them function independently as was the practice before 51st dai.
They function independantly under the guidance of the Leader. Just like the Fatimids did.
Furthermore, you talk about the 51st Dai. So you agree with Syedna Taher Saifuddin? Andjust have a problem with the 52nd?

i believe that the dai's office is neccessary to lead the bohra community, but purely as their spiritual and religious guide only, that it is the founding principle of a bohra's faith. but that does not mean that the dai cannot be held responsible and accountable. he is not above man-made or divine laws.

About it being purely spiritual is incorrect as Islam encommes ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE.
Also, so you accept the Dai just as a spiritutal leader?
You're current comments suddenly reflect that you claim to be a Bohra! Bohras follow their scripts like the Daim ul Islam (so why do you go against Female Circumcision). Bohra texts (and the Quran) talk of Sajda, why don't you agree with that?

You claim to be a Bohra (I think), but you don't stand for it's beliefs and practices.
Thus, concluding, either you Aren't a Bohra, you're lying, or just confused. Which sect do you follow/authority and sources (because they sure aren't DB sources and authority!!)? Religion? Imam Ali? Fatimids?

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#3

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:31 pm

Adam wrote:
Which sect do you follow/authority and sources (because they sure aren't DB sources and authority!!)? Religion? Imam Ali? Fatimids?
there goes the prize idiot again, chasing his own tail...!!! :D

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#4

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:35 pm

@ Adam,

Before harping on the fatimid imams just like your master who wants to legitimise his pompous and extravagant lifestyle by giving these examples out of context, just read their history and you will know that they were RULERS who governed provinces and by virtue of which they were required to maintain a certain decorum. The dai doesnt rule any province/country except the lives of gullible abdes whom he compels to address themselves as slaves. Even as per fatimid belief he is nothing but a mere represantative of the hidden imam which again is a controversial issue and his fundamental duty is to give 'dawah' in which he and his father have failed MISERABLY.

"Dai" is derived from the word "Dawat" i.e. the one who invites people to his faith.

humanbeing
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#5

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:28 am

Adam wrote:The Dai is accountable only to his Leader the Imam. The Prophet was only accountable to Allah.
Prophet was accountable over his preaching inspired from Quran, Prophet provided references from Quran before advising, guiding, instructing his followers, Prophet provided accounts of funds used/collected from the community. The word accountable is a neutral word. Allah doesn’t needs accounts, Imam doesn’t need accounts, Morever secluded Imam doesn’t need accounts. People who have pledged their beliefs, trust and faith in the leader require accounts to strengthen their trust in the leader.
Adam wrote:Excommunication is an Islam/Fatimid act. Read up your Fatimid texts if you claim to be a "Bohra".
Rules of Islam is more important than that of Bohra Doctrines. Bohra faith is set of rules and regulations for organizing and managing people within ambit of Islam.

Embezzlers are forgiven and accommodated in the community, and people seeking truth and accountability are excommunicated ! This is not an Islamic act !
Adam wrote:Islam is NOT just for religious deeds, it's a way of life, and that includes everything. The Prophet was a part of every Muslims "secular lives", he even taught/commanded the followers how to go to the toilet! That is the deed of every Imam AS after the Prophet. Same thing.
This rule applies to one and all, Mullahs should practice what they preach ! Islam preaches equality of human kinds. Then why in bohra masjid / markaz are they segregated in the treatment (special passes, spaces and dining privileges) .

Islam doesn’t allow stopping of burial and harassment of relatives of the deceased for non payment of worldly dues.

Being part of secular lives doesn’t mean to create obstacles in them. Seeking guidance / advise is applauded, why charge taxes (Laagats, Money salaams, Najwa) and restrictive color coded grasp for occasions. When there are various other funds generally collected (wajebaat, sabeel, najwa salaam, silatul imam, hoob etc)
Adam wrote:Justice is being served.
Where ? to whom ? Embezzlers and fraudsters still walking amongst us with respect and no remorse, that is what you call justice ?

Appointed Amils ruling their area with own greedy agendas, exhorting and commanding rates of salaam and arbitrary amounts of wajebaat. Is that you call Justice ?

Kadambosi passes, ziyafats, other spiritual services are brokered and sold at premium prices commercializing bohra faith. Is that you call justice ?

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#6

Unread post by Adam » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:51 am

You claim to be a Bohra (I think), but you don't stand for it's beliefs and practices.
Thus, concluding, either you Aren't a Bohra, you're lying, or just confused. Which sect do you follow/authority and sources (because they sure aren't DB sources and authority!!)? Religion? Imam Ali? Fatimids?


there goes the prize idiot again, chasing his own tail...!!!


I should say the same to you. It's you who can't answer simple questions, let alone complicated ones!

@gulam

Before harping on the fatimid imams just like your master who wants to legitimise his pompous and extravagant lifestyle by giving these examples out of context, just read their history and you will know that they were RULERS who governed provinces and by virtue of which they were required to maintain a certain decorum.

1. My comment was in answer to Al Zulfiqars comment : "dai and his family should lead a life of simplicity and avoid pomp,". Where he doesn't want ANY POMP. Ruler or No Ruler. I just stated that living a wealthy life isn't an issue in accordance to Islamic beliefs.
2. Al Zulfiqar claims to be of Fatimid belief (I think, still confused as he doesn't say), so, he should be agreeable to their way of life.
3. Imams like Imam Hasan who after the Suleh with Mu'awiyah did live wealthy lives, even though he wasn't a "ruler".
Wealth is not an Issue.

Excommunication was also discussed in reply to Al Zulfiqars claim of being a Fatimid believer (if he does claim that)
Coming back to the point at hand. This thread, is only about Al Zulfiqar and his confused state from jumping from one belief to another.

Well, Al Zulfiqar? Are you going to keep running away?
You claim to be a Bohra (I think), but you don't stand for it's beliefs and practices.
Thus, concluding, either you Aren't a Bohra, you're lying, or just confused. Which sect do you follow/authority and sources (because they sure aren't DB sources and authority!!)? Religion? Imam Ali? Fatimids?


porus
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#7

Unread post by porus » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:23 am

Adam,

What was the source of Imam Hassan's income which enabled him to live a lavish lifestyle?

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#8

Unread post by Adam » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:12 am

DB sources : Uyoon al Akbar, Sharh al Akbar, Daimul Islam

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#9

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:47 am

Adam wrote:
there goes the prize idiot again, chasing his own tail...!!!
I should say the same to you.

Well, Al Zulfiqar? Are you going to keep running away?
you think that you should, but you cant, because YOU are the prize idiot chasing his own tail..!!

have you seen me running away? in fact you are the one who runs away when he is cornered, by using the following lame defenses, (in your own words):

1. you are childish
2. i will ignore
3. i only enter into 'serious' debates
4. you are a coward
5. you are a wahabi
6. you are not an abde
7. i am a 'true bohra'

etc etc ad nauseum.

need any more reminders?

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#10

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:38 pm

Adam wrote: "dai and his family should lead a life of simplicity and avoid pomp,". Where he doesn't want ANY POMP. Ruler or No Ruler. I just stated that living a wealthy life isn't an issue in accordance to Islamic beliefs.
There is a vast difference between hard earned/self acquired wealth and illgotten wealth derived after exploiting sentiments of gullible followers. If you want to debate on how the dai has acquired wealth thru illegitimate means then there are plenty of threads on this forum and you just need to surf them. By the way, please prove that the wealth of Suleman Nabi and fatimid imams were acquired by exploiting sentiments of their followers and imposing unarbitary taxes outside the realm of Islam.

profastian
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#11

Unread post by profastian » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:47 am

humanbeing wrote:
Adam wrote:The Dai is accountable only to his Leader the Imam. The Prophet was only accountable to Allah.
Prophet provided accounts of funds used/collected from the community.
And which idiot told you that? Any authentic references?

anajmi
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:53 am

Abde idiots shouldn't be asking for authentic references. Your entire existence is based upon lies created by your Dai and then you ask for authentic references?

Can you give me an authentic reference that says that your Dai is infallible? Can you quote an ayah from the Quran? I can show an ayah from the Quran that talks about people like your Dai who ask for money in the name or religion and then use it for their own luxurious living and are going to be punished for that. Do you want me to show you that ayah?

Instead of listening to fairy tales fed to you by your Dai you should pick up a book of the seerah of the prophet (saw). You might learn a few things about him and your worthless subserviant existence might derive some purpose.

profastian
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#13

Unread post by profastian » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:06 am

anajmi wrote:Abde idiots shouldn't be asking for authentic references. Your entire existence is based upon lies created by your Dai and then you ask for authentic references?

Can you give me an authentic reference that says that your Dai is infallible? Can you quote an ayah from the Quran? I can show an ayah from the Quran that talks about people like your Dai who ask for money in the name or religion and then use it for their own luxurious living and are going to be punished for that. Do you want me to show you that ayah?

Instead of listening to fairy tales fed to you by your Dai you should pick up a book of the seerah of the prophet (saw). You might learn a few things about him and your worthless subserviant existence might derive some purpose.
But Your entire existence is not based upon lies created by your Dai and you ask for authentic references. Can you give me ayah which says that hunting is haraam?

Rationalist
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#14

Unread post by Rationalist » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:41 am

profastian wrote:
anajmi wrote:Abde idiots shouldn't be asking for authentic references. Your entire existence is based upon lies created by your Dai and then you ask for authentic references?

Can you give me an authentic reference that says that your Dai is infallible? Can you quote an ayah from the Quran? I can show an ayah from the Quran that talks about people like your Dai who ask for money in the name or religion and then use it for their own luxurious living and are going to be punished for that. Do you want me to show you that ayah?

Instead of listening to fairy tales fed to you by your Dai you should pick up a book of the seerah of the prophet (saw). You might learn a few things about him and your worthless subserviant existence might derive some purpose.
But Your entire existence is not based upon lies created by your Dai and you ask for authentic references. Can you give me ayah which says that hunting is haraam?

Maybe we don't have a ayah, which directly says hunting for sport is haram. But we do have hadith quoted in Daim al Islam which says killing any animal even a little sparrow 'abathan' without any reason, is forbidden. And I'm sure nowhere in Fatemid texts you will find evidence to prove the infallibility of Dai.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#15

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:33 am

profastian wrote:
And which idiot told you that?
the same idiot who said that dai is fallible

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#16

Unread post by Adam » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:32 am

Al Zulfiqar
Pls stick to the debate and refrain from commenting and diverting. Speak short and intelligently.

when adam is cornered, he uses the following lame defenses, (in his own words):
1. you are childish
2. i will ignore
3. i only enter into 'serious' debates
4. you are a coward
5. you are a wahabi
6. you are not an abde
7. i am a 'true bohra' ...



1. Sometimes when you act childish, that will be my opinion. You can disagree if you want. But i'm free to have my own.
2. I will ignore stupidity and "childish" or useless comments. The Quran does state "و اعرض عن الجاهلين", (ignore idiots), which I am free to do as well.
3. Yes, i'm here for debates in serious discussions. Not time pass like some others
4. Again, that is my opinion. I only called you a coward after you keep dodging a "simple" answer about your own faith, nothing complicated (which you still haven't clarified)
5. I have only called anajmi a Wahabi (because I "think" he is), but never you. (Because I still don't know what belief you follow)
6. True, that's my opinion. A DB is a person who follows the 52nd Dai.
7. True, I believe so.

Now, coming back to YOUR PREDICAMENT.
Dear Al Zulfiqar:
You claim to be a reformist?
What does that mean (in terms of beliefs and followings)?
Which religion does that belong to? Islam?
What is your belief in Imam Ali?
What is your belief in the Fatimid Imams AS and the Duats?
Which sources do you refer to for your understanding on Islam, Shari'at and its practices?

OR
Do you not have any belief? Please clarify that too?


Very simple. Don't dodge again.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#17

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:34 am

this is getting hilarious. thanks adam for my daily laughs.! surely you are a gem!

trust you to fall into the trap everytime, with your foot in your mouth too.

what is most fun however is knowing that adam loses his nightly sleep speculating on my exact beliefs, my 'predicament' as he so pompously puts it. his zeal in pigeon-holing each and every member here is admirable, akin to a bassett hound. i imagine him sniffing the air, his tail stiff and his nose twitching, straining at his master's leash, eager for the little dog biscuit which will follow as a reward.

well, adam my good hound, keep speculating and barking for direction. but let me remind you that neither you nor your tyrant masters own this forum, you are not its admin, you have no rights here, being here is a privilege and you do not get to dictate anything to anybody nor demand anything from anyone.

i give two hoots to your stupid questions and endless crap. take them and shove them. i think you are a coward, a devious, wily, slippery, dishonest coward. a coward who refuses to answer when asked whether dai is greater than imam and greater than prophets and allah as definitively proved by your fellow abde regressives on this forum.

dont ask me your repetitive questions again. i am not your lackey or your slave like you are of syedna and am not obliged to comply.

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#18

Unread post by Adam » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:35 am

@Rationalist
And I'm sure nowhere in Fatemid texts you will find evidence to prove the infallibility of Dai.

You're wrong, yes there is.
You claim to follow Daimul Islam, does that mean you also follow Fatimid texts? If yes, then it is available and discussed by Syedna Hatim and Syedi Lukmanjee.

(Above is not part of the topic, please post the answer on the relevant thread)

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#19

Unread post by Adam » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:36 am

@Al Zulfiqar
Wow, that entire post of yours had nothing intelligent in it.
Coming back to your beliefs?

Why are you so scared, shy to express them? Confused?

anajmi
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:39 pm

But Your entire existence is not based upon lies created by your Dai and you ask for authentic references. Can you give me ayah which says that hunting is haraam?
The Quran says, obey Allah and obey the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) has cursed the one who harms an animal for sport. The Quran says that the prophet (saw) does not speak out of his own but only that which is a command from Allah. Hence it can be safely concluded that hunting animals for sport is haraam in Islam.

Hunting animals for sport is an extravagance of the rich and the pompous. The Quran has prohibited extravagance, pomp and show. A Dai of Allah should be the last person indulging in such activities. It isn't too late to wake up from your slumber.

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#21

Unread post by Adam » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:02 pm

Anajmi
Pls take the hunting comment to the hunting thread.

This is about Al Zulfiqar and his confused standpoint, which he's afraid to express

anajmi
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:05 am

Actually Al Zulfiqar is one of the most vocal opponent of the Dai's unislamic practice of hunting animals for sport. If this thread is about Al Zulfikar, then it is ok.

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#23

Unread post by Adam » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:04 am

Dear Al Zulfiqar:
You claim to be a reformist?
What does that mean (in terms of beliefs and followings)?
Which religion does that belong to? Islam?
What is your belief in Imam Ali?
What is your belief in the Fatimid Imams AS and the Duats?
Which sources do you refer to for your understanding on Islam, Shari'at and its practices?

OR
Do you not have any belief? Please clarify that too?

Very simple. Don't dodge again.

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#24

Unread post by Adam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:36 am

I refer to Al Zulfiqars words on http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... &start=150
if the true imam, who will verify himself, appears and declares that the reformists are his true followers


Does that mean that Al Zulfiqar claims to be a Proggy Reformist? Still hasn't clarified that yet :(

Dear Al Zulfiqar:
You claim to be a reformist?
What does that mean (in terms of beliefs and followings)?
Which religion does that belong to? Islam?
What is your belief in Imam Ali?
What is your belief in the Fatimid Imams AS and the Duats?
Which sources do you refer to for your understanding on Islam, Shari'at and its practices?

OR
Do you not have any belief? Please clarify that too?

Very simple. Don't dodge again.

Adam
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#25

Unread post by Adam » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:13 am

Very simple. Don't dodge again.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#26

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:51 pm

adam,

i will not deny that i derive a great deal of vicarious and sadistic pleasure seeing you losing your sleep and torturing yrself so much mentally trying to figure me out.

pray, please continue asking your stupid and puerile questions since you do not have the intellectual capacity to use your own brains and independent judgement to read between the lines or arrive at sensible conclusions.

i cannot blame you. abde regressives like you lose all their cognitive abilities and powers of reasoning once they are subjected to the mental indoctrination at sabaks, where it is a simple - 'they dish out, you swallow' - process.

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#27

Unread post by Adam » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:57 am

I am not torturing myself so much mentally trying to figure you out.
My efforts are only to help YOU figure out what YOUR confused state is all about.

since you do not have the intellectual capacity to use your own brains and independent judgement to read between the lines or arrive at sensible conclusions.

I "may" not have the capacity to read between the lines, but you surely lack the capacity of reading what's ON THE LINE, when the questions are very clear and directed right at you.

According to me, you are just a sad confused person without a religion and don't know which way to turn and what is right.

If that isn't so, then this will help you:

Dear Al Zulfiqar:
You claim to be a reformist?
What does that mean (in terms of beliefs and followings)?
Which religion does that belong to? Islam?
What is your belief in Imam Ali?
What is your belief in the Fatimid Imams AS and the Duats?
Which sources do you refer to for your understanding on Islam, Shari'at and its practices?

OR
Do you not have any belief? Please clarify that too?

Very simple. Don't dodge again.

level_headed
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#28

Unread post by level_headed » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:36 am

Arrey Adam bhai - tamey aa niraala shaan na saheb Syedi Al Zulfiqar Saheb Ramsayuddin ne nathi pehchaanta. ghani niraali shaan chhe.
Ghani vaar herat thaaye chhe ke Proggie movement na leader Ahmek Ali Raj yeh aa niraala shaan na saheb par nas kem nathi kidhi. He deserved the nas but was bypassed - that is the reason you will find a lot of frustration in his eloquent writing.
Porus also shot down his fantastic story about bhoot and churail - tyar si diljala thayee gaya chhe.
Ramsay bhai - aisa hota hai, chinta mat kariyo. box office par sab horror movie to hit nahin hoti but house of Ramsay se to hum expect kar sakte hain ke har saal ek nayee horror movie aaye.

LAGE RAHO RAMSAY BHAI !!

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#29

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:39 am

[quote="Adam]

My efforts are only to help YOU figure out what YOUR confused state is all about.

[quote]

oh, thanks! please continue in your efforts. they bring me a tremendous amount of pleasure. :D :mrgreen:

Adam
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Re: Al Zulfiqar ?

#30

Unread post by Adam » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:13 am

According to me, you are just a sad confused person without a religion and don't know which way to turn and what is right.
Sad story indeed.