Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

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Peace
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Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#1

Unread post by Peace » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:38 am

A very basic question. Why Dawoodi Bohras and other shia sects pray 3 times a day instead of 5 times? What are the justifications?

humble_servant_us
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#2

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 am

This could probably answer why shia sects combine prayers.
http://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/files/combine.pdf

anajmi
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:37 am

The simple fact that the prophet (saw) combined prayers, leads us to believe that they are in fact separate prayers. The prophet (saw) combined them without reason also leads us to believe that he normally prayed them separately. So combining prayers is not the rule. The rule is to pray them separately. Combining is allowed. If the Quran has stated 3 prayers, then the prophet (saw) wouldn't be able to combine them without reason. The Quran would be the reason!

Peace
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#4

Unread post by Peace » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:15 am

dear brother, i read it. it is more like a comparison that shia have more better/convenient way than sunni. brother it is not the debate that who is better sunni or shia. we should try to follow the best example that is Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H.

I have a confusion on this statement "he (the Holy Prophet) wanted that no one among his Ummah should be put to (unnecessary) hardship."
Then please solve this riddle that first 5 times prayers implemented for hardship for ummah then 3 times can be prayed, lifting the hardship. Is it the testing that what will work best?

This is only my opinion/logic.
May Allah show us the "Sirat-e-Mustaqeem".

anajmi
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:25 am

Well, most muslims on earth pray 5 times. And when they face hardships they might pray 3 times. Hardships like when it is raining or when they are travelling etc. Shia apparently face hardship 24x7x365.

Peace
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#6

Unread post by Peace » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:35 am

Dear Dawood Bohras,
Please shed some light on this topic. Right now it is going one sided.

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#7

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:04 pm

Peace wrote:Dear Dawood Bohras,
Please shed some light on this topic. Right now it is going one sided.
Dawoodi bohra orthos has no clue what they are suppose to do Islamically.

They do whatever they are ordered to do.

Br. Porus has posted prayer times Farman from Ali RA, recorded in Najaul-Balega

Imam Ali is final authority for Shias so if they violate his Farmaan then they are not doing what he said.
As per his farmaan he ordered 5 prayes on 5 seperate times.

Wasalaam

anajmi
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:17 pm

Najaul-Balagha has now been rejected by the bohra clergy probably because it agrees too much with the mainstream muslims.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#9

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:44 pm

anajmi wrote:Najaul-Balagha has now been rejected by the bohra clergy probably because it agrees too much with the mainstream muslims
Adam bhaisaab has a different take on this !!

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#10

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:17 pm

Br. Porus has posted prayer times Farman from Ali RA, recorded in Najaul-Balega
I am sorry, it was br anajmi. Br Porus has posted 5 times from Qur'an Ayas.


Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#12

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:35 pm

deleted


.

AliRahbar
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#13

Unread post by AliRahbar » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:17 pm

Peace wrote:Dear Dawood Bohras,
Please shed some light on this topic. Right now it is going one sided.
we dont share our precious knowledge on internet, where every donkey have rights to bray, if u are really interested to know bohra belief,search for a local bohra mosque and ask to mosque imam, he will guide you to correct information.

humanbeing
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#14

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:23 am

Incredible / Labbaik / Ala Maqaam / Poet / RevertBohra may be back in his new avatar ! “AliRehbar”

humble_servant_us
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#15

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:39 am

Anajmi
The simple fact that the prophet (saw) combined prayers, leads us to believe that they are in fact separate prayers. The prophet (saw) combined them without reason also leads us to believe that he normally prayed them separately. So combining prayers is not the rule. The rule is to pray them separately. Combining is allowed.
This makes sense and is logical.
Shia apparently face hardship 24x7x365.
This is not right.

I agree with you that there are 5 distinct times of prayers and here we are not challenging it but just presenting why we (shias) combine prayers. And as you have also accepted combining is allowed, I think we are not doing anything wrong.

anajmi
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:34 am

humble_servant_us,

Please do not repeat the same tired old crap over and over again. The reason shias combine prayers is that the prophet (saw) SOMETIMES combined prayers. We know that. Tell us why you refuse to pray separately when the prophet (saw) did exactly that most of the times.

anajmi
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:36 am

we dont share our precious knowledge on internet, where every donkey have rights to bray, if u are really interested to know bohra belief,search for a local bohra mosque and ask to mosque imam, he will guide you to correct information.
Another hidden knowledge moron comes out in the open. Just like your precious knowledge, you too should stay hidden.

humble_servant_us
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#18

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:13 am

anajmi

By combining times we are not doing something which prophet(pbuh) has forbidden to do , so its not something wrong. You can argue there is more value in what prophet(pbuh) did and we are deprived of that extra benefit(sawaab) which is OK but atleast it is not wrong or something forbidden by the prophet(pbuh). And i have already presented the logic behind combining.

These are furoo-e-deen and all muslim schools of thought (shafi, hanafi, maaliki, hambali, jaafery) have differences in them and it is accepted by most of the muslim scholars that to follow any of the school is OK.

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#19

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:53 am

anajmi wrote:A letter from Hazrat Ali to his governors - from the Nahjul Balagha

Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice (Isha) prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.

While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.


Can the Shias count from 1 to 5?
Humble
This is Farmaan from founder of Shia faith or say JC of Shias
Why Shia disobay him?

SBM
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#20

Unread post by SBM » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:56 am

Br MF
Can we stop this Shia/Sunni debate ad nauseaum. Why a simple question gets twisted about bad mouthing Shias and Sunnis Please, you do not have to reply to each and every post. This topic has been discussed at great length and I had even posted a link from youtube elsewhere in this regard
but let us keep this Shia/Sunni divide and yes also bad mouthing each other.

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#21

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:52 am

porus wrote: (30:17) EXTOL, then, God’s limitless glory when you enter upon the evening hours, and when you rise at morn

These are fajr prayer and magharib prayer.

(30:18) and [seeing that] unto Him is due all praise in the heavens and on earth, [glorify Him] in the afternoon as well, and when you enter upon the hour of noon.

This is asr prayer and zuhr prayer

(11:114) And be constant in praying at the beginning and the end of the day, as well as during the early watches of the night.

These are fajr, magharib, and isha prayers

So, these are the five prayers as interpreted by the majority of the Muslim Ulama. It is also in line with teaching of Daa'imul Islam, whose primary authority is the Quran as interpreted by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and earlier Imams.

The above Quran quotes are Muhammad Asad translations.

The following is from Maududi's Tafheemul Quran:

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Reading Arabic Quran, I agree with Maududi.
Can Shia answer this?
Why they are not following prayer timings given by Allah SWT and recorded in Qur'an?

Br SBM
I am aware of Maulan's feelgood message. Prayer issue is dredged out by Shias over and over.
Look at this thread. One shia starts it. HUS who was absent for long time answers in Half Hour with standard shia text.

My question is please answer this.
Quran is clear. Hadith is clear. Alis order is clear.
Prophet combined it without apperant reason few times. May be he had reasons he did not want disclose. So why?
Why did he not say "Pray 5 prayers in 3 times. But if you pray 5 times then it is better".

humble_servant_us
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#22

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:25 am

Why they are not following prayer timings given by Allah SWT and recorded in Qur'an?
We accept that there are 5 times of prayers, no doubt about it . Combining doesn't reduce 5 to 3. Every salaat starts with a intention (niyat) and takbir and ends with salaam. So every shia offers 5 distinct salaats. The only different is the time when asr and isha are offered.
Prophet combined it without apperant reason few times. May be he had reasons he did not want disclose. So why? Why did he not say "Pray 5 prayers in 3 times. But if you pray 5 times then it is better".
Did prophet(pbuh) ever forbid us from combining salaats? If yes then we are doing something wrong. But no he didn't do it, infact you agree Prophet(pbuh) did it without apparant reasons few times so if we do it , there is nothing wrong or disobedience in it.

Peace
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#23

Unread post by Peace » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:34 am

Dear Members,

I think this forum is created to debate logically, rationally and most importantly tolerance of others beliefs. As mentioned in the Quran only Allah knows who is on the right path.

In my opinion diversion starts, where one think that I have all the knowledge, I understand every aspect, and I am on the rigth path.

We should debate with tolerance and not use abusive language whether he is DB or not DB. so that everyone take part and share his knowledge enthusiastically, otherwise it will be a one sided forum and it will loose its effectiveness.

Again in my opinion a true muslim is a blessing to his/her society.

May Allah show us the "Sirat-e-Mustaqeem".

AliRahbar
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#24

Unread post by AliRahbar » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:26 pm

this is why it is said keep your house affairs restricted to your own house.

Peace
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#25

Unread post by Peace » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:34 pm

Dear Ali
We should not try to hide any knowledge. Rather we should try to encourage the spreading of knowledge so that everyone can recieve the benefits from it. Actions without knowledge/understanding is almost useless to me.

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#26

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:37 pm

humble_servant_us wrote:
Did prophet(pbuh) ever forbid us from combining salaats? If yes then we are doing something wrong. But no he didn't do it, infact you agree Prophet(pbuh) did it without apparant reasons few times so if we do it , there is nothing wrong or disobedience in it.
Br Hus, AS

Qur'an says 5 times for 5 prayers, You ignore it.
Plenty of Ahadis delineating prayer times and you do not care about it.
Hukum of your Imam (You Shias have included him in their Kalema) and you are ignore it.
Now you want Prophet's express words forbidding combining prayers?

What’s matter with you guys!!
For Bohras and Ismailis Porus says "It is also in line with teaching of Daa'imul Islam"
So they are not in conformity with their Holy Book

How about this:

From: Sahih Al-Bukhari , Chapter: Times of the Prayers, Hadith No. 505
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... anslator=1

Narrated 'Abdullah: I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." 'Abdullah added, "I asked only that much and if I had asked more, the Prophet would have told me more."

It looks like Shias do not believe this Hadith or not heard of it.
So let me break it down down ""To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." " for you.
I am in New England USA
Today Zohr happened at 12:50 PM I should pray Zohr after 12:50 as soon as possible.
Early Asr time is (One Shadow) is 4:21 PM so I should pray Asr after 4:21 PM
Second permissible Asr time is little later so those following that (mostly those following Hanafi Madhab) should pray after that time.

By this does it not mean you really cannot combine the prayers?
Last edited by Muslim First on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#27

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:38 pm

AliRahbar wrote:this is why it is said keep your house affairs restricted to your own house.
He is saying "Takiya"

Kaka Akela
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#28

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:48 pm

We are all educated people so let us agree to diagree and follow our own teachings from our religious books and religious guides, The best of which is of course," The Quran e Majeed" and we all muslim of all shades and colors and belief have firm belief in it, and it says, " Lakum deemokum valeya deen". Why can't we stop this silly discussion about my deen is better than your deen.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#29

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:59 pm

The point that everyone has raised on this subject is the "Preference" of Prophet (s.a.w.). He (s.a.w.) prefered that muslims should pray 5 times daily, now combining them MAY not be wrong but it is obviously NOT prefered by Prophet (s.a.w.). Hence muslims should do what is most liked by him. As someoene pointed out that Prophet (s.a.w.) combined prayers in certain circumstances only, hence we should examine those circumstances and analyze the ones with the current times so as to see whether are they in line with the circumstances in Prophet's time.

Muslim First
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Re: Prayer (Namaz) Timings. 3 or 5?

#30

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:27 pm

by Kaka Akela on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:48 pm
," The Quran e Majeed" and we all muslim of all shades and colors and belief have firm belief in it, and it says, " Lakum deemokum valeya deen".
Respected Kakaji, AS

Please read whole Sura
It is addressed to Kafiroons not Muslims.
Read Qur'an and understand it. Not use fragmented part of it.
Sura Al Kafiroon
[Shakir 109]
Say: O unbelievers!
I do not serve that which you serve,
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

Wasalaam