Awareness of Imamate Concept

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
humanbeing
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Awareness of Imamate Concept

#1

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:16 am

Hi Adam

Although I do not have profound knowledge of Fatimid / Dawoodi philosophies discussed on this thread. But as a commoner I have certain queries.

Concept of Imamat applies to All in this world. Then …

Prime facie, whose responsibility it is to educate / inform / invite / warn people who are ignorant of such concept, condition or lack of awareness ?

From Bohra belief / history/ philosophy it is very clear that, Dais have been carrying on the task of educating / informing / inviting people to Daawat or deen of Islam under the guidance of Imam-in-presence / seclusion.

What were the sources of spreading this education and create awareness of Imam in past?

Further on, what are the current efforts to educate uninformed masses* of concept of Imamat ?

*uninformed masses are rest of 6 billion non bohras on the earth.

Adam
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#2

Unread post by Adam » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:15 am

From what I understand (I maybe wrong) that during the Zuhoor period, the Imams sent Dais to different areas.
During satr however this hasn't taken place.

DB faith doesn't do "Tableegh".
what are the current efforts to educate uninformed masses

To my knowledge, there aren't any efforts, because its not supposed to be done.

What do you Progs understand this whole concept to be?

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#3

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:04 am

Adam wrote:DB faith doesn't do "Tableegh".
To my knowledge, there aren't any efforts, because its not supposed to be done.
So as per the bohra / shia philosophy, if one doesn’t recognize Imam will die a non believer death and doomed to hell, at the same time, DB faith doesn’t take any effort to spread the awareness, as its not suppose to be done, So DB faith is comfortable with Millions of uninformed people who are not aware of such condition be doomed to hell. Isn’t that Cruel ?

Why it is not suppose to be done ?

Adam
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#4

Unread post by Adam » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:59 am

Very simply, because Hidayat is in the hands of Allah (as mentioned in the Quran).
It may seem cruel to you, but that is Allahs wish, and His decision.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:00 am

Hidaya is in the hands of Allah but at the same time Allah ordered the prophet (saw) to deliver the message. The bohras have refused to deliver their message because according to their idiotic logic, "it is not supposed to be done". Rest assured, it is actually good for the rest of us that Allah has made sure that only abde idiots will remain abde idiots. More of us won't be joining their fold!!

Adam
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#6

Unread post by Adam » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:37 am

It's also Allahs wish not to give Hidayat to those who don't deserve it. Hint Hint.

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#7

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:41 am

Adam

My queries are regards to 6 billion non bohras, according to you Allah has decided not to give hidaya to 6 billion non bohras. Only bohra are blessed ! .. I mean I m on lucky side of as I m a born bohra, but I m worried about non bohras too. I m a caring human being, atleast I feel its common sense, logical, humane and ethical to give a chance of education, information, awareness of such condition in their lifetime, if after such education they don’t adhere, its their bad luck.

Also how do you decide / conclude / claim that, Allah has given such hidayat (not to promote message of Islam or invite people to Islam) ?

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:55 am

Adam wrote:It's also Allahs wish not to give Hidayat to those who don't deserve it. Hint Hint.
And abde idiots do not deserve it. That is why they are made to stand in front of a bent human with folded hands (humiliation) and do sajda to the same human. Muslims normally carry the dead on their shoulders but abdes are made to carry the living on theirs. What could be more humiliating?

Allah's hidaya is not in hidden books. It is in an open book available to all. But consider the misfortune of the abde idiots. A book that is available to all is not available to the abde idiots. They have been prevented from understanding it. May Allah have mercy on them.

Adam
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#9

Unread post by Adam » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:14 am

My queries are regards to 6 billion non bohras, according to you Allah has decided not to give hidaya to 6 billion non bohras. Only bohra are blessed ! .. I mean I m on lucky side of as I m a born bohra, but I m worried about non bohras too. I m a caring human being, atleast I feel its common sense, logical, humane and ethical to give a chance of education, information, awareness of such condition in their lifetime, if after such education they don’t adhere, its their bad luck.

Forget about the 6 Billion Muslims, what about the other Non- Muslims in comparison.
Allah is the "Raheem", it is his wish, and his decision. Even in that decision he is "Caring"

P.S : Just being born in a Bohra family doesn't make you one. You have to believe and remain a Bohra

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:20 am

Allah has made his ilm (Quran and Sunnah) freely available to everyone on earth. Anyone who wishes, can put in an effort and if Allah wishes, he may become a believer. Bohra ilm is not available to everyone because Allah has made sure that this shirk does not spread.

Adam
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#11

Unread post by Adam » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:24 pm

The devil Iblis challenged that he will corrupt the masses. That's why we see Wahabism spreading so rapidly.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:47 pm

And yet the abde Dai prefers to keep his "knowledge" hidden. What a shame!!

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#13

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:05 pm

Adam wrote:
DB faith doesn't do "Tableegh"...... because its not supposed to be done.
its a pity no one told the 50 dai's before syedna taher saifuddin about this. they simply wasted their time, travelling from city to city, from village to village, in whatever conveyances they could get, bullock carts, horse carriages, even walking, depending on the kindness and largesse' of strangers for their meals, accomodation and health, donating whatever meagre resources they had towards bringing non-muslims and non-bohras into our faith. for hosting mass meals where poor and hungry non-believers were invited freely to attend and were gradually converted with our generosity, kindness and piety.

what today's dawoodi abde regressive bohra faith demands to be done, is to weed out those who question the dai and his establishment's corruption, unislamic behaviour, loot and tyranny and throw them out, utter laanats against them, ostracise them, keep them physically apart from their near and dear ones and label them as munafiqs and mushriks.

so in a matter of only some 7-8 decades, we have gone from encompassing non-believers with our love and kindness and being inclusive, to fomenting hatred for non-believers, sowing dissension, displaying arrogance, intolerance and impatience and becoming exclusive.

great going indeed!

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#14

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:53 pm

Adam wrote:Forget about the 6 Billion Muslims, what about the other Non- Muslims in comparison.
when I said 6 billion non bohras, that include non muslims too, as world population stands somewhere a little over 6 billion people in total, the ‘little over’ I guessed them to be bohras.
Adam wrote:Allah is the "Raheem", it is his wish, and his decision. Even in that decision he is "Caring"
Adam ! are you alright ? Do you know what you are saying ?? You mean to say, by not letting people come towards Islam Allah is being “Raheem” and “Caring” and then you say, one who doesn’t recognise Allah through Imam dies a pagan death and doomed to hell. Gosh ! you are confused !!
Adam wrote:P.S : Just being born in a Bohra family doesn't make you one. You have to believe and remain a Bohra
Arre !! Now you are saying being born into bohra family is not enough, to have belief one need to be educated, informed and made aware, That is what is my query ! can a non bohra if made to believe and strives to remain a bohra be saved from pagan death ? For that to happen, Bohra clergy has to take effort to spread the word.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#15

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:44 pm

Adam wrote:The devil Iblis challenged that he will corrupt the masses. That's why we see Wahabism spreading so rapidly.
Iblis comes in various forms and mostly in spotless white attires with flowing beards and thats why we see corrupt leaders tightening their stranglehold on their followers as external appearences decieve people quite a lot these days.

Muslim First
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#16

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:04 pm

Adam
From what I understand (I maybe wrong) that during the Zuhoor period, the Imams sent Dais to different areas.
During satr however this hasn't taken place.
DB faith doesn't do "Tableegh" .
Adam , Are you really a DB? If your religion does not do "Tableegh", then how did your ancestors became DB.
Why do you call him Dau if he does not invite others to his religion?
You are brother biggest BSer this forum ever saw.

BTW thanks a lot elevating me to Wahabism from follower of Qur'an and Sunnah. I still have not figured out what Wahabism is.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#17

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:43 pm

bro. mf,

here is the answer to your questions...

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
Adam wrote:
DB faith doesn't do "Tableegh"...... because its not supposed to be done.
its a pity no one told the 50 dai's before syedna taher saifuddin about this. they simply wasted their time, travelling from city to city, from village to village, in whatever conveyances they could get, bullock carts, horse carriages, even walking, depending on the kindness and largesse' of strangers for their meals, accomodation and health, donating whatever meagre resources they had towards bringing non-muslims and non-bohras into our faith. for hosting mass meals where poor and hungry non-believers were invited freely to attend and were gradually converted with our generosity, kindness and piety.

what today's dawoodi abde regressive bohra faith demands to be done, is to weed out those who question the dai and his establishment's corruption, unislamic behaviour, loot and tyranny and throw them out, utter laanats against them, ostracise them, keep them physically apart from their near and dear ones and label them as munafiqs and mushriks.

so in a matter of only some 7-8 decades, we have gone from encompassing non-believers with our love and kindness and being inclusive, to fomenting hatred for non-believers, sowing dissension, displaying arrogance, intolerance and impatience and becoming exclusive.

great going indeed!

Muslim First
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#18

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:27 pm

Br AZ
AS

I need answer from Adam

profastian
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#19

Unread post by profastian » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:51 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
Adam wrote:
DB faith doesn't do "Tableegh"...... because its not supposed to be done.
its a pity no one told the 50 dai's before syedna taher saifuddin about this. they simply wasted their time, travelling from city to city, from village to village, in whatever conveyances they could get, bullock carts, horse carriages, even walking, depending on the kindness and largesse' of strangers for their meals, accomodation and health, donating whatever meagre resources they had towards bringing non-muslims and non-bohras into our faith. for hosting mass meals where poor and hungry non-believers were invited freely to attend and were gradually converted with our generosity, kindness and piety.

what today's dawoodi abde regressive bohra faith demands to be done, is to weed out those who question the dai and his establishment's corruption, unislamic behaviour, loot and tyranny and throw them out, utter laanats against them, ostracise them, keep them physically apart from their near and dear ones and label them as munafiqs and mushriks.

so in a matter of only some 7-8 decades, we have gone from encompassing non-believers with our love and kindness and being inclusive, to fomenting hatred for non-believers, sowing dissension, displaying arrogance, intolerance and impatience and becoming exclusive.

great going indeed!
Which idiot told you the stories about the previous 50 DAIs?

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#20

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:11 am

profastian wrote:Which idiot told you the stories about the previous 50 DAIs?
Profastian

In fit of hatred you are expressing your immaturity and displaying kiddish behaviour, you are mocking leaders who are narrating past dai’s efforts. Who in the world can tell stories of the previous 50 Dais, other than Kothari leadership. It is funnily surprising that, an avid kothar defender is unaware of efforts by previous dais to spread Islam into India and Middleeast – North Africa regions.

progticide
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#21

Unread post by progticide » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:07 am

humanbeing wrote:
profastian wrote:Which idiot told you the stories about the previous 50 DAIs?
Profastian

In fit of hatred you are expressing your immaturity and displaying kiddish behaviour, you are mocking leaders who are narrating past dai’s efforts. Who in the world can tell stories of the previous 50 Dais, other than Kothari leadership. It is funnily surprising that, an avid kothar defender is unaware of efforts by previous dais to spread Islam into India and Middleeast – North Africa regions.
Humanbeing,
It is you who is acting kiddish by asking childish questions on this thread.
Brother Profastain is correct in his observation. And Adam has already spelt out the doctrine on Tableegh. DB faith is not propogated during the period of Satr. However, if Allah provides Hidaya to someone and he/she wants to enter the DB faith than they shall be duly accepted as per the laid down procedures. The DB faith propogated in sub-continent was during the reign of 18th fatimid Imam-Caliph Mustansir Billah. And majority of people converted to DB faith during that period of kashf of Imam-caliph from 18th-20th. (Read history of Maulai Abdullah, Maulai Yaqub, Maulai Nuruddin etc.)

Stop worrying about the 6 billion non-bohras. They are not your concern but Allah's concern, so let Allah worry about that. You should be worried about your Imaan (which is in a state of flux as we see it) and Yes, you should consider yourself lucky that you were born a DB.

So mind your own Imaan, and leave the business of 6 billion non-bohras and providing Hidaya to them to Allah. Ofcourse, Allah knows best whom to give Hidaya.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:20 am

DB faith is not propogated during the period of Satr.
Hopefully, this satr will remain till the day of Qayamat. Abde idiots want their Dai to live till the dai of Qayamat, so we are good. As long as the Dai is alive, this disease can be contained.

The reality is that the Dai cannot spread this disease because the day he tries, he will be exposed for the fraud that he is. This satr bull shit is created by him to passify his idiotic followers!!

Muslim First
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#23

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:30 am

DB faith is not propogated during the period of Satr.
Dai is suppose to do Dawa and therefore you call him Dai.
Since he does not do Dawa Abdes should call him something else.

I suggest Bhagwan Burhanuddin Maula wold fit to 'T'

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#24

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:39 pm

profastian wrote:
Which idiot told you the stories about the previous 50 DAIs?
the 51st dai

profastian
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#25

Unread post by profastian » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:59 am

Muslim First wrote:
DB faith is not propogated during the period of Satr.
Dai is suppose to do Dawa and therefore you call him Dai.
Since he does not do Dawa Abdes should call him something else.

I suggest Bhagwan Burhanuddin Maula wold fit to 'T'
The word DAI means
1) one who does DAWAT
It could also mean
2) one who does DUA.
During Zahoor he is suppose to do DAWA, which they did and during Satr he is supposed to do DUA, which he is doing. So no need to change the name.

profastian
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#26

Unread post by profastian » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:08 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
profastian wrote:
Which idiot told you the stories about the previous 50 DAIs?
the 51st dai
Who was that? Ajgar or Insap?

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#27

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:58 am

Hi Abde Scholars (no pun intended)
Keeping personal prejudices and pot shots aside, please present your views in line with sensible justifications. Let me re-present my query with a background.

Allah (most merciful) from time to time sent messengers for people of the various era to guide them to path of one god and righteousness, to unite and live in harmony, equality and co exist with peace and respect. There is no much difference between people of those times and that of today. Allah ordained messengers to spread the word far and wide and invite, educate, inform, persuade people to join the righteous.

Zooming down to Islam, Allah chose prophet Muhammad to spread the message of Islam, and Prophet Muhammad, took help of his friends and family to accomplish this task ordained by Allah. Further to that, as per shia / bohra belief; Family of Prophet Muhammad kept the torch of Islam alive by continuing on mission of Islam, by spreading the word and upholding its principles, From Imam Ali to Imam Hussain, faced political atrocities and sacrificed their loved ones in the path of Islam, they neither went into seclusion neither stopped mission of Islam. Succeeding Imams kept the word alive, by creating a network of dais through imparting education and knowledge, every era and time has been challenging and laced with threat and oppression of righteous by tyrant rulers. Imams and Dais travelled far and wide (it’s a commendable task in those harsh times, without transport and communication technology) also they faced oppressive threats and hostile environment to stifle message of Islam. Yet Imams and Dais continued on mission.

The argument put forward here, which says; that Dai were instructed to Proselytize in era of Imam-in-Presence and Not to proselytize in era of Imam-in-seclusion further sanctioned this order as Command of Allah to Imam and Imam to Dai, stands ambiguous.

One contention is; Dai are not suppose to proselytize in era of Imam-in-seclusion, with no apparent justification given so far, however Imam-in-seclusion is out of reach of commoners only, but for Dai, Imam has always been around (wajid-ul-wujood), guiding and educating Dai about worldly and spiritual affairs. A practice (missions) which has been carried on for centuries stops due to hide/seek situation doesn’t alter message of Islam, which is far more broader and important from political dynamics of times.

Second contention is ; Not to proselytize has been sanctioned as command of Allah, after prophet Muhammad, god has communicated to mankind through Quran, every muslim leader / scholar studies and interprets Quran to seek and advise solution for wordly and spiritual affairs. I don’t wish to make assumption here on my own as I m unqualified to quote from Quran to express my viewpoint. So can anyone provide justification why inviting people to Islam has been ordered to stop during time of Imam-in-seclusion. If not from Quran, then by other logical / political justifications can also be considered

Third contention is; An expansive condition has been claimed – “Any person who does not recognize and give allegiance to Imam-uz-Zaman will be deemed as non believer and doomed to pagan death ending in Hell”. Prima Facie, with such claim, first responsibility falls on the leader who makes this claim to inform any person on whom such condition applies, later non-compliance to said condition would be a chosen fate of the any person.

A simple example, in an office; Employer cannot penalize an employee who has not been informed / educated of rules, regulation and non compliance penalties. Prima facie, it is employer’s responsibility to provide enough opportunity to employee to learn the rules and comply.

This is a simple, common sense example applicable to everyone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
progticide wrote:Stop worrying about the 6 billion non-bohras. They are not your concern but Allah's concern, so let Allah worry about that.
6 billion or 6 non-bohras, my emphasis is on the philosophy ! Allah’s concern has been answered by revelation to Prophet Muhammad and compilation of Quran. Now its upto every muslims to share and spread the message of Islam, if not actively then atleast help non-believers to understand what Islam is.
progticide wrote:You should be worried about your Imaan (which is in a state of flux as we see it) and Yes, you should consider yourself lucky that you were born a DB.
Yes ! I m worried about my Imaan, I always pray to Allah to keep me on path of righteousness, I feel I m never perfect in matters of faith, the restlessness keeps me striving on the path to perfect my Imaan, Imaan which is simple, logical and open to share and spread. I believe every word said in context of Islam; which upholds humanity, righteousness, common sense and equality.

progticide
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#28

Unread post by progticide » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:13 am

Humanbeing,
Try as much hard as you can but you will not manage to get any answers pertaining to your queries out of any DB on this forum. You need to attend the official sabaq and pass through the laid down format to get your answers.

Whichever way you twist and turn and reword your queries and however long essays you may write, you would not succeed in getting any further explanations. Go to your Jamaat Aamil and request him to join the sabaq sessions if you want answers.

Else if you think you are so smart and knowledged than read the Holy Quran and find the answers yourself and go salvage the 6 billion non-bohras, why are you asking questions here.

profastian
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#29

Unread post by profastian » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:33 am

progticide wrote:Humanbeing,
Try as much hard as you can but you will not manage to get any answers pertaining to your queries out of any DB on this forum. You need to attend the official sabaq and pass through the laid down format to get your answers.

Whichever way you twist and turn and reword your queries and however long essays you may write, you would not succeed in getting any further explanations. Go to your Jamaat Aamil and request him to join the sabaq sessions if you want answers.

Else if you think you are so smart and knowledged than read the Holy Quran and find the answers yourself and go salvage the 6 billion non-bohras, why are you asking questions here.
Exactly, there are answers to all of your queries, but they would not and should not be discussed on a public forum. If you want to know our(bohra) answers to your queries, follow the prescribed path.

truebohra
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#30

Unread post by truebohra » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:14 am

Surat 'Āli `Imrān (Family of Imran) - سورة آل عمرا
Sahih International
Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds -
Muhsin Khan
Allah chose Adam, Nuh (Noah), the family of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the family of 'Imran above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Pickthall
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.
Yusuf Ali
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
Shakir
Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.
Dr. Ghali
Surely Allah has elected Adam and Nuh (Adam and Noah, respectively) and the house of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the house of Imran over the worlds.

Sunni Hadith :-
Wathilah ibn al-Asqa narrated the Prophet Muhammad said;
"Indeed Allah chose Isma'il from the progeny of Ibrahim, chose the Banu Kinanah over other tribes from the children of Isma'il; He chose the Banu Quraish over other tribes of Kinanah; He chose Banu Hashim over the other families of the Quraish; and He chose me from Banu Hashim."
—Related by Muslim and Tirmidhi.

Family Tree of Prophet Mohammed (SAW)
http://www.atlantajamaat.org/md_saw_family_tree.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad

So Allah has Chosen Imams Progeny of Ibrahhim- >Adnan -> Abd al-Muttalib > Abu Talib -> Ali -> Imams
So Allah has Chosen Imams Progeny of Ibrahhim- >Adnan -> Abd al-Muttalib > Abd' Allah- Mohammed -Fatema ->Imams
(Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds)