Awareness of Imamate Concept

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#31

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:34 am

Hi True Bohra

Thanks ! link you provided is really insightful. It is splendid to learn.
Also please present your comments with various interpretations you have posted.

Thanks

truebohra
Posts: 413
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#32

Unread post by truebohra » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 am

humanbeing wrote:Hi True Bohra

Thanks ! link you provided is really insightful. It is splendid to learn.
Also please present your comments with various interpretations you have posted.

Thanks
Humanbieng,
I dont have any comments. I have just posted the information. Quran has clearly mentioned Progeny of Ibrahim has been chosen over all the people, creature of the world. Its up to you & others to believe it or refute it.
Thanks

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#33

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:13 am

True Bohra
What is your point ? what connection does it have with queries I expressed and how do you conclude that I have refuted what you have presented ?

truebohra
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#34

Unread post by truebohra » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:25 am

humanbeing wrote:True Bohra
What is your point ? what connection does it have with queries I expressed and how do you conclude that I have refuted what you have presented ?
I am sorry my point is clear in my both post. My point is Imamat is mentioned in Quran with respect to progeny of Ibrahim . It does not have any connection with your Query -if i understand correctly -it regarding spreading awareness about imam. I have not concluded any thing regarding your acceptance or refute, it was just a statement and not a conclusion. If you have accepted that its well and good.

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#35

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:57 am

Hi True Bohra

I do believe in concept of Imamate ! its not an impossible or vague concept not to believe ! I do not doubt teaching of Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali and succeeding Imams and Duats, I agree I may be ignorant to complete knowledge and intricate details of the literature. And with passing time I m learning more.

What you mentioned is also my main point, Allah raised messengers above humans and ordained them to spread the word of God, and how splendidly they executed the task, their names are standing tall in the history. They revolutionised human existence, bought sense and peace to disturbed and biased world of pagans, divided over deities and superstitions. See what power spreading word of god has over human history. This is my point ! I was happy to read your post, which strengthen my opinion, that how Allah chose men of character and how splendidly they delivered allah’s message, its superbly exciting and emotionally appealing when we learn about stories from times of Adam to Ibrahim to Muhammad, they were so passionate to spread the word, one and for all. It was unfortunate people who turned away from the message and strayed out of arrogance and not ignorance.

And my apologies too, if I accused you of concluding negative remark on me.

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#36

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:40 am

humanbeing wrote: Although I do not have profound knowledge of Fatimid / Dawoodi philosophies discussed on this thread. But as a commoner I have certain queries.

Concept of Imamat applies to All in this world. Then …

Prime facie, whose responsibility it is to educate / inform / invite / warn people who are ignorant of such concept, condition or lack of awareness ?

From Bohra belief / history/ philosophy it is very clear that, Dais have been carrying on the task of educating / informing / inviting people to Daawat or deen of Islam under the guidance of Imam-in-presence / seclusion.

What were the sources of spreading this education and create awareness of Imam in past?

Further on, what are the current efforts to educate uninformed masses* of concept of Imamat ?

*uninformed masses are rest of 6 billion non bohras on the earth.
Hello Fayyaz

Would like to know your opinion on the above post .

fayyaaz
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#37

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:15 am

humanbeing,

Nobody has God-given responsibility to teach concept of Imamat.

A human being is conditioned to accept beliefs of the social group that he is born into.

A social group organizes formal instructions in these beliefs. Primary responsibility rests with the Parents who transmit their conditioning to their off-springs in an informal way. And they partake of the opportunities afforded by their social groups for formal indoctrination in the group’s values. The reason they do it is they the members of the group value these instructions.

The group may or may not decide to spread their doctrines to the out-groups.

With that prologue over, Bohras have decided not to spread their doctrines. That is their right. They have an organization like Madrasas, Markaz, Masjid that reinforces their teachings. Their organization has the Dai at its apex.

Specifically, their concept of Imamat originated in Bohra pre-history and it is rooted in their belief about the Prophet appointing Ali as his successor. Later, the pre-Fatimid and Fatimid scholars developed this concept based on their interpretation of the scripture.

That is briefly about who is responsible among Bohras for teaching the concept of Imamat. First the parents and then their formal organization.

Of course, Pure Muslims do not like Bohras doing this one bit and are out to destroy their beliefs and their organization. In modern parlance, they are the terrorists. They believe that they alone know what the scripture teaches and Bohras are not right. On this forum they are represented by anajmi and his a*$*-lickers.

Of course, they confine their attacks to the Bohras, who are weak both in education and in the will to oppose them. They believe that they have God’s permission to harass Bohras. That is why we have a preponderance of them on this forum. Would they do the same to Christians and Hindus? Of course not, they are cowards. Better be safe among like-minded lickers, that is their operating principle.

Munira_RV
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#38

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:10 pm

humanbeing wrote:Although I do not have profound knowledge of Fatimid / Dawoodi philosophies discussed on this thread. But as a commoner I have certain queries.

1. Concept of Imamat applies to All in this world. Then …

2. Prime facie, whose responsibility it is to educate / inform / invite / warn people who are ignorant of such concept, condition or lack of awareness ?

3. From Bohra belief / history/ philosophy it is very clear that, Dais have been carrying on the task of educating / informing / inviting people to Daawat or deen of Islam under the guidance of Imam-in-presence / seclusion.

4. What were the sources of spreading this education and create awareness of Imam in past?

5. Further on, what are the current efforts to educate uninformed masses* of concept of Imamat ?

*uninformed masses are rest of 6 billion non bohras on the earth.
1. What is meant by "Concept of Imamat applies to all in this world"?

2. The source of wisdom on earth are: Prophet, Imams, rightfully appointed Dai's and their authentic literature - at least one source will always be present on earth. Free will is given to all humans they may associate with these sources or otherwise is their choice. It is not obligatory on these sources to convince all and get them converted into the actual Islam (Bohras). E.g. Prophet Mohamed PBUH was the highest authority of his time appointed by Allah on earth - forget all, he was unable even to convince majority of humans on earth in his era to get converted into Islam!!!

3. A rightful Dai does open public call only during the time when Imam is publicly accessible, in his concealment Dai only maintains the house (i.e. educate only to them who are in the house).

4. Ilham from Allah. The word of Imam is akin to word of Quran. The book Quran is mute, and Imam is the speaking Quran. That is why Quran says, "Zalikal qitaab laraybafee.." meaning "THAT book (Imam, the speaking Quran) is flawless and correct. Arabic word "Zalika" means "that" and "haaza" means "this", Quran has used former term and not the latter!

5. When you can't find water for ablution then do "taiyamum", when Imams are to accessible and there are no rightful Dai's left then "taiyamum" is always accessible and available = read literature approved from the Imam's or their authorised representative.

seeker110
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#39

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:25 pm

I thought a persons actions will take him/her to Janat.

I thought living the life, as close to the life lived by Ahle Bait, will get me there.

Rest of the stuff is obstacles/jibbish in the easy to follow directions.

SBM
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#40

Unread post by SBM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:29 pm

Munira RV aka Badrijanab
So who is the rightful Dai at the current time?Who You do you follow as Dai?
According to your theory there has to be a Dai present during the Satr of Imam, and if you can not tell us who is the rightful Dai then either Imam is not in Satr or your entire theory of Imamat goes down the drain. So let us know who is the true Dai and who do you follow as Dai?

Munira_RV
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#41

Unread post by Munira_RV » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:44 pm

SBM wrote:According to your theory there has to be a Dai present during the Satr of Imam
You are grown up person to score brownie points you retort to speaking lies! This doesn't suit you Mister.

Your statement above is lie, I've not made such statement.

fayyaaz
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#42

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:47 pm

SBM wrote:Munira RV aka Badrijanab
So who is the rightful Dai at the current time?Who You do you follow as Dai?
According to your theory there has to be a Dai present during the Satr of Imam, and if you can not tell us who is the rightful Dai then either Imam is not in Satr or your entire theory of Imamat goes down the drain. So let us know who is the true Dai and who do you follow as Dai?
Hey sbm,

What business is it of yours who the rightful Dai is or whether Imam is alive, dead or hiding? Why don't you just stick to following anajmi and chuck to whole Imam/Dai shit into a nearest dustbin? If you are worried about your dad or your child following this 'mythical' Ima,m just take them to anajmi. They will then enter heaven, he will assure you. Then you can relax and forget about Bohras and leave them in peace and be peaceful yourself.

SBM
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#43

Unread post by SBM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:10 pm

^
As usual since they can not answer they stoop to name calling
Why is Munira RV aka Badrijanab is not answering who is he following as DAI? simple question. and Fayyaz no one told you to butt in
What business is it of yours who the rightful Dai is or whether Imam is alive, dead or hiding
because if you can not answer a simple question of who is the rightful Dai, then you are talking chickens--t

fayyaaz
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#44

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:31 pm

SBM wrote:^
and Fayyaz no one told you to butt in
Unlike you, I do not need anajmi to tell me when to butt in. You butt in the business which has nothing to do with you. What does it matter to you, or to anyone else, if someone worships Jesus or Shiva or the Dai?

Oh, I get it. You are following in your lord anajmi's footsteps. Decide that you are a Pure Muslim and take the shit out of all who, according to you, are not. Is that it? Yes you will get enormous sawab doing just that, I know, I know.

SBM
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#45

Unread post by SBM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:01 pm

fayyaaz wrote:
SBM wrote:^
and Fayyaz no one told you to butt in
Unlike you, I do not need anajmi to tell me when to butt in. You butt in the business which has nothing to do with you. What does it matter to you, or to anyone else, if someone worships Jesus or Shiva or the Dai?

Oh, I get it. You are following in your lord anajmi's footsteps. Decide that you are a Pure Muslim and take the shit out of all who, according to you, are not. Is that it? Yes you will get enormous sawab doing just that, I know, I know.
Seems like you forgot to take your psychotropic drugs since you are rambling again. If psychotropic drugs are not working please do get PHOOK NU PAANI from Badrijanab's pristine DAI.
Oh I forgot you are an Atheist but loves to butt in about everyone's religious belief

fayyaaz
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#46

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:23 pm

SBM wrote: Oh I forgot you are an Atheist but loves to butt in about everyone's religious belief
I do not butt in in anyone's religious beliefs. I point out that Pure Muslims should leave others' beliefs alone and worry only about their own. I let Bohras live in peace in their choice of the Dai or anyone else. I seek only to understand and not to undermine. Whatever a person chooses is OK with me.

I do not care what your beliefs are and neither should you care about anyone else's beliefs.

Mind your own business and I will mind mine.

Else, I will comment on your participation here.

SBM
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#47

Unread post by SBM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Mind your own business and I will mind mine.
So why did you butt in when I asked question to Munira RV aka Badrijanab about which Dai he follows, since when that become your business.
Practice what you preach

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#48

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:30 pm

SBM wrote:
Mind your own business and I will mind mine.
So why did you butt in when I asked question to Munira RV aka Badrijanab about which Dai he follows, since when that become your business.
Practice what you preach
Because it is not your business to worry about which Dai anyone else follows. Did I not make that clear, you moron?

He is welcome to state his beliefs if he wants.. But you want to interrogate him and I know the superior air from which you are posing that question. anajmi has taught you well.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#49

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:46 pm

Actually, he or she (munirajanab) has asked everyone to give up their religion and join the bohra pristine community. So it becomes imperative for the pure muslims like SBM and myself to show him/her the error of her/his ways and initiate the process of his/her purification. This process involves interrogation.

SBM
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#50

Unread post by SBM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:02 pm

Fayyaz
Seem like you are infatuated with Anajmi because except for this post I have never mentioned Anjami since he and I do not even agree on many issues but seems like all the Abdes who can not move without saying Moula Moula, you can not even write a post without mentioning Anajmi. Seems your psychotropic drugs are not working.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:15 pm

All pure muslims have two angels sitting on their left and right shoulders, but fayyaaz has anajmi sitting on his head. :mrgreen:

salaar
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#52

Unread post by salaar » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:40 pm

Imamate concept, something on which we have our belief and reliance. when i was young i often used to ask my papa where is imam uz zaman and then would start guessing maybe he is in europe or macca or may be living closeby, that curiosity was never answered. this concept of imamat is like a super hero which is there in many religion and everybody has pinned their hopes that the imam or whatever name for other religion you want to give would come for the rescue of the masses who are deprived of their rights by people among us. I have decided to comment on this after some thought as for the believer this is something very sensitive, i would relate imam to a ray of hope that is been given to the suffering humanity, a friend of mine while discussing imamate said ......
"bhai aa souraj je rouz oogay che ye imam uz zaman par dalalat karay che, tamay em socho ke aa sagla insaano ne jismani ghiza pohnchawa wastay khuda taala kitni efforts karay che anay kitno anaaj anay sabzio oogaway che tou pachi apni jaan na wastay khuda ye kai nai kido hasay, ehna wastay aik ehwa sahib ne duniya ni peeth par utara che ke je ghaybat ma hotay hoe apna dai thaki apna jano ne mazboot karay che takay apne apna watan e qadeem ni taraf pohnchee jaiye"
yes this is a logic which makes sense and i was convinced, after Burhanuddin maula crack developed in the strong wall of eeman, after witnessing the way SMS and KQ got entangled in fights of claim and counter claim the cracks have appeared in the concept of imamat as well when both of them are claiming to have contact with imamuz zaman i guess both of them are lying, for me the best niyat for silatul imam and nazrul makam is to give that amount to those who are dying everyday for food clean water and medical facilities and iam sure if imamuz zaman is there he would acknowledge my thought.
So many times in waiz an incident about a dai of an imam is mentioned, they said that during daur ul kashf dai of an imam asked him to reveal his whereabouts to the king as during those days also imam was in temporary hiding, that king gave ikraam to the dai and showed his willingness to bring imaan on the imam, on his persistent demand to dai repeatedly asked the imam to meet the king but the imam kept on refusing finally the imam said to the dai that if he thinks what he believes is true he should tell the king that it is only he who is the imam and see how the king reacts, the dai agreed and happily went to the king and said whom are you looking for, it is actually me who is the imam, on knowing this the king immediately ordered his soldiers to chop off dai head, the dai said sorrowfully mara moula sachoo kehta hata.
maybe at an unspecified and favourable time in the future the dai could declare that he is the actual imam, similarly you will see that other groups like shias christians and jews who are expecting someone to come and conquer the world for them would label and consider extra talented one in their group to be their imam. this reminds me of a person who claimed to be imam mehdi, me and few of my college friends went to see him, when we reached his apartment and enquired the chokidar said kis se milna hae woh jo apnay ko imam kehta hae, and showed us the way, some lady opened the door and we met a fat ugly man only wearing turban in his late 60s, he offered us water and then started his speech like a tape recorder, all rubbish, he showed us some of his photos with famous people then revealed the indications of imamat and how it fits him, very disappointed we returned at least it was not that we expected.
iam not clear on this imamate stand but i advice leave it for sometime in future as right now we have so many other issues, its wise to be a good human then to fight on theories about which we are all confused and saying NAAM.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:43 pm

So many times in waiz an incident about a dai of an imam is mentioned, they said that during daur ul kashf dai of an imam asked him to reveal his whereabouts to the king as during those days also imam was in temporary hiding, that king gave ikraam to the dai and showed his willingness to bring imaan on the imam, on his persistent demand to dai repeatedly asked the imam to meet the king but the imam kept on refusing finally the imam said to the dai that if he thinks what he believes is true he should tell the king that it is only he who is the imam and see how the king reacts, the dai agreed and happily went to the king and said whom are you looking for, it is actually me who is the imam, on knowing this the king immediately ordered his soldiers to chop off dai head, the dai said sorrowfully mara moula sachoo kehta hata.
So much for the ghaib na jannar Imam!!

fayyaaz
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#54

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:03 pm

Salaar,

You have a very sensible idea. Why not just leave the Imam to his devices. He will appear when he thinks fit.

Do you know that Ithna-asharis have lived with that idea for 1100 plus years? They do not have anyone that uniquely represents the Imam. They have Ulama who follow one or several ultimate authorities and the rest do the same. The choice is up to you. You can do the same. Choose a Dai among competing ones if you feel the Fatimid view is to your liking. Or do away with the Dais and join the Ithna-asharis if you want to disband Fatimid beliefs altogether.

Of course, you can join Sunnis or Pure Muslims. The latter would be a retrograde step, but, clearly, that is your choice.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:34 pm

Remember, the devil and his minions require you to mix impurities with your Islam. That is how idol worship started in Mecca and idols took over the kaaba. Even the panjatan were pure muslims. Let us all strive to be pure muslims.

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#56

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:54 pm

anajmi wrote:Remember, the devil and his minions require you to mix impurities with your Islam. That is how idol worship started in Mecca and idols took over the kaaba. Even the panjatan were pure muslims. Let us all strive to be pure muslims.
Words of a Pure Muslim God. :roll:

fayyaaz
Posts: 528
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#57

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:05 pm

anajmi wrote: Even the panjatan were pure muslims.
Biradar mentioned a Yazid-lover on this forum. I think he was referring to you. Why would he do that?

Like you said, the devil uses every trick to deceive. Now suddenly the objects of alleged Bohra idol-worship become Pure Muslims. Hypocrite!

Biradar aptly called you a serpent.

anajmi
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#58

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:09 pm

Biradar is a fool just like SMS. He will swear and curse when he cannot handle the truth.

Have you heard this one - if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen? Well, Biradar has taken it to heart. Whenever the kitchen gets hot, Biradar runs. He will come back when things cool down. You are the same. The kitchen got hot the last time and you ran. You came in disguise, but you are feeling the heat aren't you? :wink:

fayyaaz
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#59

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:22 pm

anajmi wrote:Biradar is a fool just like SMS. He will swear and curse when he cannot handle the truth.
And of course you are Truth's fountainhead. :lol:

humanbeing
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Re: Awareness of Imamate Concept

#60

Unread post by humanbeing » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:43 am

fayyaaz wrote:Nobody has God-given responsibility to teach concept of Imamat.
Why do you say so ? In that case, what were prophets from god doing on earth. My query is about spreading the concept of Imamat, as it is made to believe that, one who does not give allegiance to the Imam of the times are doomed to hell fire ! may I suggest to read the responses in the above thread when it was started, it would help in the direction of the discussion.
fayyaaz wrote:A human being is conditioned to accept beliefs of the social group that he is born into.
Agreed, what about others who are not born into fatemid beliefs ?

fayyaaz wrote:Of course, Pure Muslims do not like Bohras doing this one bit and are out to destroy their beliefs and their organization. In modern parlance, they are the terrorists. They believe that they alone know what the scripture teaches and Bohras are not right. On this forum they are represented by anajmi and his a*$*-lickers. ………..Of course, they confine their attacks to the Bohras, who are weak both in education and in the will to oppose them. They believe that they have God’s permission to harass Bohras. That is why we have a preponderance of them on this forum. Would they do the same to Christians and Hindus? Of course not, they are cowards. Better be safe among like-minded lickers, that is their operating principle.
May I request to get over your obsession with anajmi and disgust with wahabis and focus on your opinions on concept of imamate under Fatimid belief. Which is understood by a commoner like me. I have following understanding learned from sabaks and bayans and some of them from this forum abdes !

------------------------------------------------------------------
Fatimid belief states the requirement of an Imam (leader), a divine leader appointed by Allah coming through the succession from the progeny of Prophet Muhammed through Sayyeda Fatima Zahra and the list of Imams thereafter which we are aware of. At one point the Imams had to go into seclusion due to political threat which for bohras come to 21st Imam, since then the Imamate is under seclusion and the DAI become the leader in re-presentation of the Hidden Imam. There is a regulation stating that, any person who does not recognize or pledge allegiance to Imam of his time is doomed to hell. At the same time, the DAI in the times of Imam’s seclusion is not allowed to spread the faith or this particular understanding.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Further to this fatimid + bohra belief, allegiance to Imam of the time is communicated through allegiance to the DAI of the times. To maintain this allegiance to the DAI, a bohra must abide by the DAI in totality. Do not hold any opinion against his conduct whatsoever ! Also a bohra must pay every penny he is asked for and upon non-payment in spite of his allegiance and wwalayat will be denied a rukku chitti which basically means he is doomed to hell.


My queries are :


What happens to those non-bohras who have no idea of such condition existing regarding their akheraat ?


What happens to those bohras who have pledged allegiance to the Imam through the DAI, but are not able to pay up and denied a rukku chitthi and burials ?


What happens to those atheists who objects the fatimid bohra DAI’s conducts and yet supports the Fatimid belief under freedom of expression ?


Please assume anajmi and wahabi out of this discussion ! for a moment keep your disgust aside and present your opinions keeping in mind everyone else.