Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

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humanbeing
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#91

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed May 02, 2012 4:15 am

level_headed wrote:You are right. One of the parameters of walayat is najwa. Maulana Ali was the first person who obeyed Allah's command to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He sold off something precious and used the money to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He would always present najwa to the Prophet (SAW).
Well said, giving gifts is always pleasant gesture to express love and affection to our dear ones. However Gifts (Najwa) is a voluntary gesture there shall be no fixed amount or coercion or undue influence on paying up najwa amounts. Before you jump with a lame accusation that, those who don’t love sayedna saheb don’t want to offer najwa etc etc. The concern is when money becomes a benchmark to express walayaa by means of najwa !

Very loudly Kothari defenders jump to quote examples of Prophet (saw) and Maula Ali to suit their practices, but there are ample example to be inspired for austerity, accountability, justice and kindness too.

Millions are given away in guise of najwas, which are usually black money or unaccounted wealth, this practice defies their own preaching of respecting law of the land ! Does Kothar leaders ensure the money received is white and accounted ? Do they stop abdes from dealing in black money ?

If collecting millions in Najwas is a fair and approved Islamic practice then kothar can declare the najwas received, there is no harm right ? No illegality involved ! when an abde expresses his love by doling out millions, then the leaders shall reciprocate by acknowledging the gifts received to serve as an example for others. Why pro-kothari websites does not enlist najwas involved in ziyafats and other titles ?

Muslim First
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#92

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed May 02, 2012 5:24 am

level_headed wrote:You are right. One of the parameters of walayat is najwa. Maulana Ali was the first person who obeyed Allah's command to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He sold off something precious and used the money to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He would always present najwa to the Prophet (SAW).
Can you quote Hadith of this?
Or this is from Bayan or Sabak or Bohra Riwayat?
Can you list all Parameters of wilayat from Qur'an or Sunnah?
Is bending over and kissing feet is part of it?

humble_servant_us
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#93

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed May 02, 2012 6:32 am

profastian wrote:
anajmi wrote:The prophet (saw) is to be followed only if his teaching is in line with the Quran. Any teaching of the prophet (saw) that appears to contradict the Quran can be safely rejected.
So the wahabi's (illogical) stance is clear. What about sunnis(barelvis), shias(panjatanis, ithna ashari), progressives(46ers, 50ers) ?

We do not have the slightest doubt about the infallibilty of the prophet(pbuh) . However in due course of time there has been traditions and hadith in name of the prophet(pbuh) wrongly fabricated , so Quran is used as the benchmark to distinguish the right from the wrong. If the hadith falls in line with Quran it will be accepted and if it is against the quran it will be rejected. There is unconditional following of prophet(pbuh) provided it is established that the tradition and hadith was truly from him.

Dai or any other religious scholar of today has to undergo a second level of scrutiny where his actions would be judged based on Quran and the "true" sunnah of the prophet(pbuh). DAIs actions have to be inline with Quran and the prophet(pbuh)'s life. For Bohras this extends a furthermore to be inline with the lives of Imams of ahlulbait(as).

The problem is you come up with a notion of DAI being perfect . Whatever he does is right and we should follow him unconditionally understanding that he is more wise than us. However when we see for small day to day activities DAI violating Islamic injunctions laid by Quran and prophet(pbuh) , it is difficult to accept the rationale of following him unconditionally .

Moreover what does the Fatimi literature say about the infallibility of the DAI. To the best of my knowledge the Fatimi literature doesn;t substantiate this.

Fateh
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#94

Unread post by Fateh » Wed May 02, 2012 7:42 am

level_headed wrote:Fateh -- you said "As you told about walayat to bhai what are the parameters to measure the true walayat?,fat najawa,? no of feet kissing ?,please guide me"
You are right. One of the parameters of walayat is najwa. Maulana Ali was the first person who obeyed Allah's command to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He sold off something precious and used the money to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He would always present najwa to the Prophet (SAW).
Thanks is there any example that the prophet went to homes of only those guys who paid him certain amount of money ?Is spirituality is financial exchange activity only?As per your ans.money is only true parameter to express true walayat?Please ask all my questions to your soul & then answer me.May ALLAH guide us.

Muslim First
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#95

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed May 02, 2012 8:54 am

Fateh wrote:
Thanks is there any example that the prophet went to homes of only those guys who paid him certain amount of money ?Is spirituality is financial exchange activity only?As per your ans.money is only true parameter to express true walayat?Please ask all my questions to your soul & then answer me.May ALLAH guide us.
Please quote references. No BS from Waez.

humanbeing
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#96

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed May 02, 2012 9:11 am

When sayedna saheb donates / gifts / allots funds for Khair-na-Kaam, there is a formal announcement in waaz and majlises creating awareness and opinion in commoner’s minds of how much funds are given away the “Maula-na-ehsaan-and-karam-concept” whereas when hundreds of devoted abdes give away lacs and millions in Najwa / Nazrana / Hadiya through Ziyafat, Kadambosi, Kadam, Salaam, Talaqqi, Nikaah, Misaak, Nisbat, Iftedah no mention of monies exchanged because of likely chances that, it may cause trouble with Revenue / Income tax depts or awareness of humongous inflow of wealth amongst commoners can create doubts / reluctance to pay other taxes and levies.

truebohra
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#97

Unread post by truebohra » Wed May 02, 2012 9:31 am

dear orthos / proggies,
I think the issue of money has been wrongly stretched & maligned with respect to Dawat. Surely money is not the barometer for the walaya but on the other hand Money & Materialistic wealth is hard to part by & every one must agree with it. Niyah is also important , if you have wealth & you are offering najwa as mark of respect & love then what is wrong? There are many ways for the walaya. Following the farman of haqna saheb, spending for the cause of dawat & dawat ni khidmat. Off course spending for the cause of dawat includes helping fellow mumineen brothers/sisters. I know many abdes spend not just on Najwas & Ziyafat but also include in philanthropy acts. I dont think it is wrong in offering ziyafat & najwa pe se. If you dont want to offer najwa & ziyafat no one is putting knife on your throat.

humanbeing
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#98

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed May 02, 2012 9:54 am

Then why was kadambosi pass sold by Udaipur Amil !

Galiyakot Amil was also making hay while sun was shining in galiyakot. I have heard personal accounts of devoted abdes gloating of paying extra bucks to get kadambosi pass from amils and office holders sheikhs ahead of others.

Kadambosi pass was marked at price of INR 5200 onwards, terms used were Najwa and tehniyat etc etc.

Off the record, rates of Ziyafats, kadambosi, kadam, Talaqqi, Nikaah, Misaak, iftedah are conveyed, so how can one say no knife on the neck.

If wealth is not a barometer of walayaa, piety or khidmat, then howcome people are becoming sheikhs and mullah by dozen. When asked or enquired, reason given is; they have served daawat by donating wealth. Those who are not learned in deen or daawat are given NKD and MKD and various other laqabs.

To get any work done from the amil, environment at dewri is such that, any bohra greeting amil without salaam is looked down upon as ill mannered.

Each and every interaction with amils or shehzada and above are involved with expressing respect with money salaam covers, it has become a subconsciously accepted expression of greeting and respect.

Spending for the cause and daawat, other then trust of commoners how can one ensure its getting used in right direction. The trust and faith has been repeatedly betrayed by trustholders.

Yes there is nothing wrong in offering najwa, let it be voluntary, Bohras will still give away good amount, such is the love and trust. Sad part is in spite of so much love and affection, Kothari inc resorts to benchmark rates and cajole people to dole out more and more.

truebohra
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#99

Unread post by truebohra » Wed May 02, 2012 10:17 am

It was wrong on part of the udaipur Aamil or Galiyakot aamil if there was any for asking for extra bucks. if you dont want to do salam with cover to aamil or shehzada you dont do it.
if you are spending for the cause of dawat then you have to have faith in it. if you want to call it blind faith let it be. I have blind faith that Quran is the word of Allah. Again i said it all depends upon your niyah if you think you are purchasing titles by paying money then it that persons niyah. If i pay lakhs of rupees my niyah is khidmat of dawat & in return if i get mafsuiyat or hadiyat its my moula's wish.

bohra_manus
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#100

Unread post by bohra_manus » Wed May 02, 2012 11:45 am

Dear Abdes (who claim that there is no compulsion in salaam etc),
I don't know what world you are living!!!
I have seen bargaining on salaam amounts with some of the Sayedna's entourage while he was visiting our town.
I have been asked by the assistants & jamaat members on how much salaam amount I was offering for Shehazada's Kadambosi to my house even though I didn't want the Kadambosi in first place.
I can recount several such incidents from my own personal experience, multiply this by thousands to account for some of us who are forced to invite and then pay up for the salaams or Najwas.
Don't say that you don't have to do it, you know very well that they feed the crap of not showing any love to the visiting Shehzada/Aamil is like not showing any love for the maula and then you are marked man for very long time.

Adam
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#101

Unread post by Adam » Wed May 02, 2012 12:16 pm

progticide wrote:
anajmi wrote:I hate to say this, but it was a trick. I added a couple of lines after the abde idiot liked it. The abde idiots are easy to fool.
Anajmi.
Although I understand your satanic desire to take sadistic pleasure through abusing and ridiculing others, and though it would not make any difference to you to know that no one on this forum is least interested in entering into any discussion or argument with you, still let me suggest that you may do well to restrict your stupidity and interference in every other thread. Your action of derailing topics and maligning individuals and mocking revered personalities (for both progs and DBs) has crossed limits and it is time that your moronic behaviour is subdued.

Your posts are ignored invariably by Progs and DBs alike. You have become a rabid dog who keeps barking on every thread, making no sense ofcourse, but increasingly becoming a source of repugnance and distortion.

Admin - I suggest you take opinion from other members of this forum as well to see if Anajmi should be allowed to continue with his notorious and irritating presence. Free speech and unhindered participation is ofcourse what people on this forum may appreciate, but it cannot be at the expense of civility, modesty and relevance.
Beautifully versed out :) Kudos.

canadian
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#102

Unread post by canadian » Wed May 02, 2012 12:29 pm

"Admin - I suggest you take opinion from other members of this forum as well to see if Anajmi should be allowed to continue with his notorious and irritating presence. Free speech and unhindered participation is ofcourse what people on this forum may appreciate, but it cannot be at the expense of civility, modesty and relevance.
Beautifully versed out Kudos."

Typical of the abdes. First they took over our religion and are telling us to get out if we do not like their way. Now these abdes have come on the progressive site and are dictating to the Admin as to who should participate in the forum! I must admit Adam and Progticide are very well trained henchmen.

truebohra
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#103

Unread post by truebohra » Wed May 02, 2012 12:53 pm

bohra_manus wrote:Dear Abdes (who claim that there is no compulsion in salaam etc),
I don't know what world you are living!!!
I have seen bargaining on salaam amounts with some of the Sayedna's entourage while he was visiting our town.
I have been asked by the assistants & jamaat members on how much salaam amount I was offering for Shehazada's Kadambosi to my house even though I didn't want the Kadambosi in first place.
I can recount several such incidents from my own personal experience, multiply this by thousands to account for some of us who are forced to invite and then pay up for the salaams or Najwas.
Don't say that you don't have to do it, you know very well that they feed the crap of not showing any love to the visiting Shehzada/Aamil is like not showing any love for the maula and then you are marked man for very long time.
I am living in the same world as you are if you consider your self abde ie DB. Yes , there is no denial that some of the aamils & bhaisaabs do hassle for salam & you cannot generalise it. In your case you can refuse any qadam of shehzada saheb & i would like to know what u did? but in short do you think it is worthwhile to abuse the dawat & dai & do mudslinging just as may so called progressive are doing on this forum. Mindwell nobody can "feed the crap" of not showing love to moula. You dont take it if you know in your heart ithat your love is true. I don't search for reasons to hate but count for reason to love our Allah his Imam & vicegerent of the Imam.

anajmi
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#104

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 02, 2012 1:07 pm

Although I understand your satanic desire to take sadistic pleasure through abusing and ridiculing others
But I do not hold a candle to the kothari goons when it comes to abusing and ridiculing others. You should visit one of these goons during the collection times and see how they abuse and ridicule others.
Your posts are ignored invariably by Progs and DBs alike.
Not true. If my posts had been ignored, you wouldn't know what I was posting and then you wouldn't know that I am abusing and ridiculing the abde idiots.

We know the last act of the beaten and the bruised, complain to the higher authority. In your case, that should be the Dai. You should be complaining about anajmi to your Dai but instead, you are doing to a progressive Admin. The Dai will be ashamed of you. Now, take an envelope, fill it with some money, and send it to the Dai and see if he hears your whining cry for help.

Adam
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#105

Unread post by Adam » Wed May 02, 2012 1:11 pm

Thread is being deliberately diverted I think?

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

Where were we?

anajmi
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#106

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 02, 2012 1:27 pm

We are at the same place where we were at the beginning of this thread. That is what happens when we deal with people like you. It is like Groundhog Day all over again!!

level_headed
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#107

Unread post by level_headed » Wed May 02, 2012 3:17 pm

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا نَاجَيْتُمُ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدِّمُوا بَيْنَ يَدَيْ نَجْوَاكُمْ صَدَقَةً ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَأَطْهَرُ فَإِن لَّمْ تَجِدُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha najaytumu alrrasoola faqaddimoo bayna yaday najwakum sadaqatan thalika khayrun lakum waatharu fain lam tajidoo fainna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
58:12 O ye who believe! When ye consult the Messenger in private, spend something in charity before your private consultation. That will be best for you, and most conducive to purity (of conduct). But if ye find not (the wherewithal), Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

After revelation of this ayat, Maulana Ali was the first person to uphold this. He sold something of value to get money to do najwa to the Prophet(SAW) and he maintained this habit throughout his life.

porus
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#108

Unread post by porus » Wed May 02, 2012 3:20 pm

level_headed,

Is your head totally leveled?

Humsafar
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#109

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed May 02, 2012 4:11 pm

It is rare to see slaves justifying their own slavery.
It is rare to see the robbed justifying their being robbed.
It is rare to see the slavemaster and the robber so glorified.
But for abdes it has become so common it all comes naturally. :)

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#110

Unread post by progticide » Thu May 03, 2012 1:17 am

Doctor wrote: Progticide bhai,

Molana va aaka va syyedina Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r) ki is nasihat ki haqiqat jab jaan loge to Kothar se bezaar ho jaoge (assuming you r intellectually honest). I will be sending a copy of it to Admin to publish it in "Library" section and will PM u when done, do read it without preconcevied notions. Thanks.
Doctor saheb,
Assure you I would give it a fair reading and hope that you would not shy away from answering the queries, if any, that I may ask thereafter.

Until then, let me ask you for you honest comment on the information provided by me above about your clerics. Kindly point out which part of the details that has come to me from various sources and posted above is false or over-exaggerated.

Adam
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#111

Unread post by Adam » Thu May 03, 2012 1:48 pm

Thanks Progticide for bringing the thread back to its topic:
Thread is being deliberately diverted I think?

Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?
Let's learn about these great people!

Humsafar
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#112

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Adam wrote:Thanks Progticide for bringing the thread back to its topic:
Thread is being deliberately diverted I think?
Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?
Let's learn about these great people!
They don't teach us to worship humans and keep us away from kufr and shirk. Compared against Abde Burhani Bohras they are more than qualified.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#113

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu May 03, 2012 3:23 pm

Humsafar wrote:It is rare to see slaves justifying their own slavery.
It is rare to see the robbed justifying their being robbed.
It is rare to see the slavemaster and the robber so glorified.
But for abdes it has become so common it all comes naturally.
To sum it up in a nutshell I would like to repeat it once again.......... WHEN RAPE IS INEVITABLE LIE DOWN AND ENJOY IT !!

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#114

Unread post by progticide » Sat May 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Looks like after my last post, Doctor saheb has decided to go into Satr himself.

If indeed that is the case, then who would conduct the Litmus Test to verify the True Imam for the progressives. :shock:

However, that is the subject on another thread. Sticking strictly to this topic, wonder who among the progressives have the authority to confirm/refute the information provided by me above wrt these progressive clerics.(I know progs are really allergic to this term "authority". Progs must be saying to themselves " kambakht baar baar kahaan se aa jaata he ye lafz "authority").

It seems like you progs have more interest and information about the affairs and clerics of DBs than about your own clerics.

Sach bhi he, aakhir jis phool mein shahd hoga madhumakhi bhi uske aaspaas hi mandrayegi. :lol:

SBM
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#115

Unread post by SBM » Sat May 05, 2012 5:28 pm

Sach bhi he, aakhir jis phool mein shahd hoga madhumakhi bhi uske aaspaas hi mandrayegi
That is why Malik Ul Chuster keeps going around for Ziyaafats all around the world So in your own words all these Zaadas accepting Ziyafats and Najwas are nothing but MADHMAKHI

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#116

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat May 05, 2012 7:25 pm

progticide wrote:Sach bhi he, aakhir jis phool mein shahd hoga madhumakhi bhi uske aaspaas hi mandrayegi
Sach bhi he, aakhir jis abde ke paas NOTE hogi, dai bhi uske aas paas hi mandrayenge !

Adam
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#117

Unread post by Adam » Sun May 06, 2012 10:21 am

Thread is being deliberately diverted I think?

Who is the most qualified progressive cleric? There has to be someone you lost souls go to!
Let's learn about these great people!

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#118

Unread post by progticide » Sun May 06, 2012 1:42 pm

Adam Bhai,
Information also coming in that none of the above gentlemen that Doctor has mentioned are Hafiz. They all refer literature belonging to Late Ahmedali and primarily quote everything as per his teachings.

Another interesting information coming in that before being removed from Jamea, Ahmedali was himself in the service of 52nd Dai for a few years and under 51st Dai's service for almost 3-4 decades. Until then, he had no problems with the chain of Dais. Only after his removal, when he did not get any favourable response in Udaipur and failed to be recognised as their leader he went to Malegaon where he racked up the issue of this Nass after 46th Dai which was never a issue in the first place. The fact that he himself served 51st and 52nd Dai proves that his actions were totally political in nature based on his desire for elevation in the ranks of dawat functionaries.
As I am being informed by various sources Ahmedali did not have any great following in Udaipur but since the progressives (who had a different agenda altogether for their grievances with kothar) needed clerics for their religious matters and affairs hence they had to accept these individuals as their clerics out of necessity. This is where Ahmedali saw his utility and started propogating his beliefs and false agenda to takeover the movement and fed his teachings into the next generation who in the absence of any genuine and honest guidance and religious teachings fell prey to his doctrines of 46th Dai Nass and other irrelevant and false beliefs.

Hanif
Posts: 188
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Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#119

Unread post by Hanif » Sun May 06, 2012 4:38 pm

level_headed wrote:
You are right. One of the parameters of walayat is najwa. Maulana Ali was the first person who obeyed Allah's command to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He sold off something precious and used the money to present najwa to the Prophet (SAW). He would always present najwa to the Prophet (SAW).

Dai cannot be compared to the Prophet SAW or Mowlana Ali A.S, Beside Mowla Ali gave Najwa to the Prophet, that is per Qur'an. Sura 58 Ayat 12

O ye who believe When ye consult the Apostle in private spend something in charity before your private consultation, that will be best for you and most conducive to purify (of conduct) But if ye find not (the wherewithal), God is oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Najwa means secret consultation or conversation

Dai should impart knowledge to people and not force them to give them najwas. He should not use the word najwa for forced gifts. Gifts should not be forced out of people. There is a big difference between a najwa and forced gifts.

A good Dai or a true Dai would not accept gifts. Please show one Fatimid Dai who accepted gifts and why

Hanif
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: Who is the most qualified progressive cleric?

#120

Unread post by Hanif » Sun May 06, 2012 4:45 pm

humanbeing wrote:When sayedna saheb donates / gifts / allots funds for Khair-na-Kaam, there is a formal announcement in waaz and majlises creating awareness and opinion in commoner’s minds of how much funds are given away the “Maula-na-ehsaan-and-karam-concept” whereas when hundreds of devoted abdes give away lacs and millions in Najwa / Nazrana / Hadiya through Ziyafat, Kadambosi, Kadam, Salaam, Talaqqi, Nikaah, Misaak, Nisbat, Iftedah no mention of monies exchanged because of likely chances that, it may cause trouble with Revenue / Income tax depts or awareness of humongous inflow of wealth amongst commoners can create doubts / reluctance to pay other taxes and levies.
That is thievery! Does not the Syedna preach to be loyal to the country of your adoption. How about him setting an example????