Adam, please respond to this post

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Aarif
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Adam, please respond to this post

#1

Unread post by Aarif » Thu May 03, 2012 11:17 am

Adam,

Please respond to this post. Since you believe in starting a separate thread for every topic I am starting this new thread for you.
You have been asking a lot of questions to the reformists’ in-order to validate and verify their faith as per Dawoodi bohra religious beliefs. Now from what I understand Dawoodi Bohra is one of the Muslim sects that do recite Kalma, pay zakat, fast in Ramadaan, go to hajj and pray Namaz. And based on these facts they consider themselves as Muslims. When you call yourself a Muslim you have to abide by the basic laws of Islam that are clearly mentioned in the holy Quran. Bohras consider Syedna as their intercessor who will hold their hand and lead them to Jannat. Bohras also perform sajda to Syedna and worship him. They pray compulsory two rakat namaz for his health and long life. Bohras are so crazy for Syedna that if you give them a choice between praying namaz and syedna’s kadam boshi they will choose the later. Some of my close relatives are hard core followers of syedna and since they are doing extremely well they have given ziyafats to Syedna. They strongly believe that since Syedna has blessed them and have had meals in their homes he has almost pre-approved their entry to heaven. Most bohras keep syedna’s photos in their homes, shops, offices etc. My uncle kisses his photo after every namaz indirectly indicating that his namaz will not be accepted unless he also pays his respects to his Dai. There are various other actions and deeds performed by bohras that indicate that the Dai has extreme significance in the life of a bohra similar to that of Allah in the life of a Muslim.

Since bohras believe in Islam and consider themselves as Muslims do you think that their faith in Dai is justified in the light of following ayahs of holy Quran?

[7:194] Do they associate with Him as partners those who create nothing, and are themselves created? And they can give them no help, nor can they help themselves.
[7:193] And if you call them to guidance, they will not follow you. It is the same to you whether you call them or you remain silent.
[7:195] Surely, those whom you call on beside Allah are mere servants like you. Then call on them and let them answer you, if you are truthful.
[7:196] Have they feet wherewith they walk, or have they hands wherewith they hold, or have they eyes wherewith they see, or have they ears wherewith they hear? Say, ‘Call upon the partners you associate with God, then contrive ye all against me, and give me no time.
[7:197] ‘Truly, my protector is Allah who revealed the Book. And He protects the righteous.
[7:198] ‘And they whom you call on beside Him have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.’
[7:199] And if you invite them to guidance, they hear not. And thou seest them looking towards thee, but they see not.
[3:79] Never would a human being whom god blessed with the scripture and prophet hood say to the people, "Idolize me beside god." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.
[18:102] Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode.
[10:19] And they worship, instead of Allah, that which neither harms them nor profits them; and they say, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say, ‘Would you inform Allah of something He knows not in the heavens or in the earth?’ Holy is He, and high exalted above all that which they associate with Him.
[14:22] And the devil will say, after the judgment had been issued, "god has promised you the truthful promise, and I promised you, but I broke my promise. I had no power over you; I simply invited you, and you accepted my invitation. Therefore, do not blame me, and blame only yourselves. My complaining cannot help you, nor can your complaining help me. I have disbelieved in your idolizing me. The transgressors have incurred a painful retribution."

This last ayah is for worshipping the dead. Bohras are so fond of doing ziayarat of their dead Dais that they visit their graves in herds and keep doing the ziayarats again and again during their lifetime. Syedna encourages bohras to go and visit as many Rozas as possible and do ziyarat of each and every Dai.

[16:20-21] And those on whom they call beside Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected.

Adam
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#2

Unread post by Adam » Thu May 03, 2012 1:36 pm

Very simply.

The Dai has been appointed by the Imam.
We will "follow" the Dai the same way we follow the Imam, unconditionally. Just like people followed the Prophets, as their leader.
All the ayats you posted have to do with Shirk, believing in multiple Gods.
The Imam is a VASILAH to Allah. And the Dai a Vasilah to the Imam.
Very simple.

Your comments have a touch of Wahabi belief of not following a Vasilah.

However, you don't need to ask this question to me only.
You can ask:
A Shia - for he believes in Imam Ali in the same way
A Proggy - for he "supposedly" believes until the 46th Dai the same way.


SBM
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#3

Unread post by SBM » Thu May 03, 2012 1:40 pm

adam
Just like people followed the Prophets, as their leader.
Bawa Adam I hope you are not comparing Dai to Prophet or oh I forgot if Dai can be Haqiqi Kaaba then why not.....
Now coming back to social issues How do you propose to help the needy and down trodden people in our community?
Prophets cared about their community and shared the grief of their followers can you say the same about Kothari Goons

Aarif
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#4

Unread post by Aarif » Thu May 03, 2012 3:19 pm

Adam wrote: The Dai has been appointed by the Imam.
We will "follow" the Dai the same way we follow the Imam, unconditionally. Just like people followed the Prophets, as their leader.
The Muslims follow holy Quran revealed to the prophet by Allah. Bohras follow the Dai who considers himself a Muslim and calls himself a slave of prophet (i.e. gulame-mustafa). However, Dai’s conduct violates the basic principles of Islam as mentioned in Quran given by the prophet to Muslims. Now are you trying to tell me that when there is a dispute between what holy Quran, the book of Allah, clearly says and what your Dai does (who claims to be a Muslim) you will believe the Dai against Quran?
Adam wrote: However, you don't need to ask this question to me only.
You can ask:
A Shia - for he believes in Imam Ali in the same way
Two wrongs do not make one right. Those Shias who worship Imam Ali like bohras worshipping their Dai are deviants. They do not satisfy the basic criteria of Islam and hence are not Muslims.
Adam wrote: A Proggy - for he "supposedly" believes until the 46th Dai the same way.
This is a very idiotic statement and I will explain it to you why. The progressives never worshipped any Dai. For them the Dai is a religious guide and not Allah on earth. In fact they are really unhappy with the way the current syedna has modified the religious practices based on his whims and fancies e.g. compulsory two rakat namaz. No Dai initiated such a ritual before.

So now coming back to my original question. How do you justify the conduct of current Dai and his followers in light of Holy Quran?

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#5

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu May 03, 2012 6:02 pm

[/quote]
Adam wrote:Your comments have a touch of Wahabi belief of not following a Vasilah
Anything which falls short of glorifying the dai is shunned off as wahabi belief !! See what Aarif had posted and figure out whether they smell of wahabism or kufr :-

Bohras consider Syedna as their intercessor who will hold their hand and lead them to Jannat.
Bohras also perform sajda to Syedna and worship him.
They pray compulsory two rakat namaz for his health and long life.
Bohras are so crazy for Syedna that if you give them a choice between praying namaz and syedna’s kadam boshi they will choose the later

humanbeing
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#6

Unread post by humanbeing » Fri May 04, 2012 4:47 am

This is what Progressive’s official mission states. More or less, every reasonably sane and self respecting orthodox bohra identify with this mission.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our mission
All is not well with our community
We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the current Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.
We are Dawoodi Bohras, and are referred to as reformists or progressives because of our struggle to bring social reforms in the community. We accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai. What we challenge is the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.
We challenge the illegitimate and unIslamic conduct of the Kothar which supposedly rules in the name of the Dai. Our struggle is rooted in the Islamic ideals of justice and accountability, and it is our conviction that there's more to being a Dawoodi Bohra than most of us have been led to believe. Our aim is not merely to lay bare the corruption of the priesthood but also to remind ourselves of what our true heritage is and how it is being destroyed.
However, it's not just our history, our religion and our way of life that's under attack. Common people and common resources everywhere are daily being laid waste by big corporations, self-centered ruling classes and obscurantist despots.
Our world is beset with problems, problems that are as intractable as they are complex and overwhelming. But then, where there's cruelty and unreason there's also compassion and intellect. And, not to forget that the human spirit, untamed by centuries of oppression, is always our steadfast ally. It's not for nothing that people continue to fight for their rights in the face of tremendous odds and at the cost of unimaginable personal sacrifice.
We are of the belief that though our struggle in the Bohra context is unique in many ways, it is yet intertwined with other peoples' struggle for peace, justice and dignity. Only by relating to larger struggles around us and by renewing our commitment to our shared ideals we can hope to bring justice and equity in our communnity and in the world at large.

Adam
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#7

Unread post by Adam » Fri May 04, 2012 1:57 pm

However, Dai’s conduct violates the basic principles of Islam as mentioned in Quran given by the prophet to Muslims

Nope, it doesn't.

This is a very idiotic statement and I will explain it to you why. The progressives never worshipped any Dai. For them the Dai is a religious guide and not Allah on earth.

Shows your lack of understanding of Fatimid belief.
They never "worshiped" the Dai.
But they unconditionally followed every Imam and Dai as an infallible leader.
They even gave Sajda to them. Quran, Kitab al Himmah. (refer Ilm na Moti Jaro of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin)
So you see, the proggies followed a set of beliefs and then suddenly decided to change everything and reject it.

Humsafar
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#8

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri May 04, 2012 2:04 pm

Adam wrote:
They even gave Sajda to them. Quran, Kitab al Himmah. (refer Ilm na Moti Jaro of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin)
For Dawoodi Bohras Dai is not infallible. Dai/Imam not deserving of sajda. Sajda is for Allah alone.
But for Abde Burhani Bohras worship of Dai is their central fundamental tenet.

Aarif
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#9

Unread post by Aarif » Fri May 04, 2012 5:38 pm

Adam wrote:
However, Dai’s conduct violates the basic principles of Islam as mentioned in Quran given by the prophet to Muslims

Nope, it doesn't.


Just by saying NO you cannot justify the anti-islamic practices of the Dai. If you want to have a fair discussion please refute my original post in this thread with an interpretation of the ayahs justifying Dai worship.
Adam wrote:
Shows your lack of understanding of Fatimid belief.
They never "worshiped" the Dai.
But they unconditionally followed every Imam and Dai as an infallible leader.
They even gave Sajda to them. Quran, Kitab al Himmah. (refer Ilm na Moti Jaro of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin)
So you see, the proggies followed a set of beliefs and then suddenly decided to change everything and reject it.
If the Dai violates the basic principles of Islam does he still remain infallible?

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#10

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri May 04, 2012 7:26 pm

Adam wrote:But they unconditionally followed every Imam and Dai as an infallible leader.
Even after Dai Abe Abdellah was proved to be fallible ????
Adam wrote:They never "worshiped" the Dai.
If abdes do not worship the dai then :-
What is 2 rakat namaz for dai ?
What is sajda to dai ?
What is the perception of the dai guaranting a confirmed place in jannat by way of ruku chithi ?
Why do abdes have to take raza for performing haj which is made obligatory by Allah (swt) ?

bohri
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#11

Unread post by bohri » Fri May 04, 2012 10:40 pm

Adam wrote:
However, Dai’s conduct violates the basic principles of Islam as mentioned in Quran given by the prophet to Muslims

Nope, it doesn't.

This is a very idiotic statement and I will explain it to you why. The progressives never worshipped any Dai. For them the Dai is a religious guide and not Allah on earth.

Shows your lack of understanding of Fatimid belief.
They never "worshiped" the Dai.
But they unconditionally followed every Imam and Dai as an infallible leader.
They even gave Sajda to them. Quran, Kitab al Himmah. (refer Ilm na Moti Jaro of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin)
So you see, the proggies followed a set of beliefs and then suddenly decided to change everything and reject it.
What does "unconditionally followed" mean? how does one unconditionally follow the current dai?
  • Like the followers of Jim Jones ? or
    Follow in his footsteps? -
    • hunt for pleasure,
      live in a palace?
      self glorify themselves?
      give long important sounding titles to his children -eg (Aliqadar Syedi Adam BS Profastain Saheb )?

Adam
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#12

Unread post by Adam » Sat May 05, 2012 12:24 am

For Dawoodi Bohras Dai is not infallible. Dai/Imam not deserving of sajda.

Yes he is.
This is getting tiring as it keeps getting repeated.
Read up the Chapter of Adam AS and Yusuf AS in the Quran
Read Kitab al Himmah
Read Fatimid literature from the Zuhoor to the Satr times (written for Imams and Dais) that Sajda is given.
Famous example (Kika Bhai Jaldi Parho) - "Sajda dai Karjo Salaam" (Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin)

If the Dai violates the basic principles of Islam does he still remain infallible?

One who is infallible will never violated the principles of Islam

Even after Dai Abe Abdellah was proved to be fallible?

Dai Abe Adbullah wasn't the al Dai al Muthlaq. Thus he wasn't infallible. But a great Dai for that matter.

If abdes do not worship the dai then :-
What is 2 rakat namaz for dai ?
What is sajda to dai ?
What is the perception of the dai guaranting a confirmed place in jannat by way of ruku chithi ?
Why do abdes have to take raza for performing haj which is made obligatory by Allah (swt) ?
ghulam muhammed


1. We pray 2 Rakaat Namaaz TAWASSUL (to take Vasila) of the Anbiya, Prophet, Imams, Dais (so its not just for the current Dai). Secondly its not "for" the Saheb. It's Tawassul "through" them "FOR" Allah ركعتين لله. It's a namaaz for "Salavaat and Dua"

We even pray for the well being of our children and dua for our parents. Read the Niyyats of each Nafilat Namaaz, and you'll realize your mistake


2. Refer above. (Not only for Dai, but for Prophets and Imams.)

3. The Ruk'o chitty is a rasm. Jannat is guaranteed by Walayat of the Imams.

4. We take raza for all religous matters not just haj. If you read up Fatimid History, many people took raza to go for haj (Syedna Ali Sulayhi asked for Raza from Imam Mustansir AS for Haj)

Remove the hatred from your head. Don't let your arrogance and hatred take you to the dark side (if you're not already there)

progticide
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#13

Unread post by progticide » Sat May 05, 2012 11:33 am

Adding to Adam Bhai's comments above,
Read Kitab Alim al ghulam - Author Syedna Jafar bin Mansur Al Yaman (Bab al Abwaab of Imam Muiz AS) - Illustrates the event when the student prostrates to his Teacher and the Teacher does not stop him from prostrating or object to his prostration per se.
We take raza for all religous matters not just haj. If you read up Fatimid History, many people took raza to go for haj (Syedna Ali Sulayhi asked for Raza from Imam Mustansir AS for Haj).
Even for Jihad which is one of the Daaim of Islam, Raza is mandatory. Jihad cannot be undertaken without the Raza of the Saheb-e-Raza. For more reference, refer to the Battle of Khandaq when Maula Ali was denied Raza twice by the Prophet (SAW) before allowing him Raza to challenge Amr bin Abdevad on the third request. Refer the Battle of Karbala when each Martyr before entering the battlefield sought Raza from Imam Husain AS, including the martyrs from Ahlu Bayt like Oan, Muhammad, kasim, Abdullah etc.

Remove the hatred from your head. Don't let your arrogance and hatred take you to the dark side (if you're not already there)

anajmi
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 05, 2012 2:25 pm

For more reference, refer to the Battle of Khandaq when Maula Ali was denied Raza twice by the Prophet (SAW) before allowing him Raza to challenge Amr bin Abdevad on the third request.
That has nothing to do with participating in jihad you moron. They were already in jihad at that time. The prophet (saw) was the commander of the forces. The soldiers wait and follow orders of the commander. These are the basic rules of engagement during times of war.

By the way, did Hazrat Ali present the prophet (saw) with an envelope of money the third time after which he got raza?

If it was the Dai at the helm, he would've been looking for a cash filled envelope before giving raza.

anajmi
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 05, 2012 2:26 pm

Read Kitab Alim al ghulam - Author Syedna Jafar bin Mansur Al Yaman (Bab al Abwaab of Imam Muiz AS) - Illustrates the event when the student prostrates to his Teacher and the Teacher does not stop him from prostrating or object to his prostration per se.
Now read this post by anajmi. Both the teacher and the student are mushriks!!

anajmi
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 05, 2012 11:36 pm

This is a good ayah for the abde idiots who require raza from Dai to go for jihad.

22:39 أُذِنَ لِلَّذِينَ يُقَاتَلُونَ بِأَنَّهُمْ ظُلِمُوا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى نَصْرِهِمْ لَقَدِيرٌ

PERMISSION [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them.

One more ayah (sign) from the Quran that your Dai is taking you abde idiots for a ride. How many more will it take?

humanbeing
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#17

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun May 06, 2012 3:31 am

Adam / Kothar defenders / abde scholar
Please say something, about the issues in the community. Questions I expressed affects a bohra in their life. Why are you ignoring this questions ?
Is there any credible list of events for which raza shall be seeked and its importance of Raza ?

How does Financial Fraud / Cheat not be a reason for baraat, especially when the fraud is breach of Dai’s Trust (Imam’s Trust) and embezzling of Daawat’s money.

With specific reference to Sheikhs and Amils who are appointed by sayedna saheb by virtue of religious authority and in position to take care of religious / administrative affairs indulge in cheating (financially and morally) can be passed off as with no religious beliefs ?

What are the disciplinary actions, can you state all or few as per your knowledge ?

So baraat an explusion from the bohra muslim community, if that person recites Kalema of Shahadat, is he/she a Muslim ?

Can he/she continue to pray namaaz in the bohra masjid ? Individually as well as under Imamat ?

To whom is this written Misaals sent to ? Local Amils or general Public ? Is this written Misaal / Memo displayed at conspicuous location at community halls or masjid’s bulletin boards ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I have your attention, can any kothari defender also quote on below queries

What exactly is the objection / apprehension with providing Accounts of Funds ?


By what justification / logic / reason…. presenting accounts is to undermine authority of sayedna saheb ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have an additional query.

Do Bohra Mumin require RAZA to embark on Hajj Pligrimage ?


Do Bohra Mumin going on Hajj have to pay Laagat too ? Please note, Laagat is an additional levy above and beyond transport, lodging & boarding and other applicable charges.

aqs
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#18

Unread post by aqs » Sun May 06, 2012 4:10 am

HB,

I think you are posting it in wrong direction. No one over here is an official representative of Kothar, so any answer is a guess work at best. You can talk to your local Aamil or Mosul he will be in a better position to answer.

humanbeing
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#19

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun May 06, 2012 4:20 am

Hi Aqs

I understand that; To get a representative response I shall be asking this questions to Amil / Muallim or in sabaks. Which I have asked. Environment at orthodoxed interactions with such question is quiet volatile. My questions were ignored or I was given a load of melodrama guilt questioning my allegiance / walayat and even Imaan.

I understand this forum is not a representations of authority in the community. I m only seeking opinions from the devout agents of Kothari management, like many other topics of religious nature which are under discussion. My questions are issues in the community to be discussed like many other questions thrown around on this forum.

We see how Kothari defenders aggressively throw questions at others and call them cowards and confused and scared. When it comes to them they are wickedly quiet.

aqs
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#20

Unread post by aqs » Sun May 06, 2012 4:34 am

humanbeing wrote:Hi Aqs

I understand that; To get a representative response I shall be asking this questions to Amil / Muallim or in sabaks. Which I have asked. Environment at orthodoxed interactions with such question is quiet volatile. My questions were ignored or I was given a load of melodrama guilt questioning my allegiance / walayat and even Imaan.

I understand this forum is not a representations of authority in the community. I m only seeking opinions from the devout agents of Kothari management, like many other topics of religious nature which are under discussion. My questions are issues in the community to be discussed like many other questions thrown around on this forum.

We see how Kothari defenders aggressively throw questions at others and call them cowards and confused and scared. When it comes to them they are wickedly quiet.
You might get some answers from people when you stop calling them Kothari agents. I dont think any one is on the payroll of Kothar, Kothar dosnt give a rats ass to Progressives thats why we dont see much change.
People you accuse of being Kothari agents believe in something like you do and defend it, no one defends Kohtar, people generally defend accusations against Syedna(tus). some times in there inner conscience they know its wrong so they ignore the question.

humanbeing
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#21

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun May 06, 2012 4:59 am

HI Aqs

Members who I address as kothar agents is out of my personal observation of their stand on issues of corruption in the community. Not once such members have condemned those jamaat office holders of embezzlement and frauds and given twisted escapist responses to justify non accountability of funds and responsibility in the community. Morever, the word Kothari agent is not derogatory ! or why is it taken so ?

Members on this forum not on payroll of kothar is a guess. However there are likely chances too, that such members are sheikhs, mullahs, jamat members or beneficiaries of kothar corrupt activities, this too is a likely guess as that of yours. IF anyone is not a Kothari agent, they can refuse to be so. There is no verification as such, lot of name calling is thrown around on this forum. Atleast I don’t wish to indulge in abuses.
aqs wrote:some times in there inner conscience they know its wrong so they ignore the question.
I agree with you. Yes there are few members who empathize with issues of corruption and subservience in the community. However expressions of opinions are there for everyone to see. No one is an authority to resolve issues in the community on this forum, least one can do is, acknowledge the wrongdoings and take an effort to reform one’s conscience before embarking on bigger reform issues externally. We all come to this forum to express, a right which is denied in our community. So my demands are to seek expression. Solution will come when there is realization.

progticide
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Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#22

Unread post by progticide » Sun May 06, 2012 7:13 am

Humanbeing,
After reading your responses and questions and applying the principles of Adaptive Psychology and CBA I have reached a certain conclusion about you. Your problem is not actually the accountability within the community. It is neither the najwa nor salaam nor ziyafat. Your problem is that you suffer from Inferiority syndrome.

Since you cannot afford a ziyafat for a Qasr-e-ali or Dai himself, or even if you can afford you dont have the courage to part with a sum of money, or decide for yourself the best manner to utilise that money in other areas of charity, you find it unacceptable for even others to do what you cannot do or unwilling to do yourself.

You need to understand that People who have money and together have the generosity and desire to utilise it for religious or spiritual purposes are actually sacrificing it in exchange for something that holds more value to them. It is not that these people dont love the money they have earned, nor is it that they are lunatics who know how to make money but not know its importance. But it is their choice and desire that enables them to sacrifice something which is also dear to them for the sake of something that holds greater value to them. It is a matter of POV. Their POV allows them to make this sacrifice of wealth, your POV does not allow you.

But the problem is that you make your POV as a generic argument for all and want everyone to accept your POV. When you are unable to convince others to accept your POV, you start targetting the other extreme namely: Dai and Dawat, making them look like the real villians who have taken away the money from you.

The question is not money, the question is sacrifice. Those who have money are willing to make a sacrifice of their money and wealth to express their devotion to their Guru, their Peshwa, their spiriual Head. This is their way of expressing their love, devotion, sacrifice, whatever you call it. Those who dont have money but physical abilities sacrifice their time and energy toward the service of the community, this way they express their devotion to their Master, their Guide. Others who dont have any of the above, but can contribute through their knowledge, serve the community through religious and educational practices, some devote themselves to extensive prayers and recition of Quran and other religious scriptures in Masjids and Markaz, some offer their services in scouts and guards, some offer their services at Dargahs and seminaries, yet others offer their services in Mawaid and community gatherings etc. All these people in some form or other sacrifice a part of their life and living as a form of devotion to their religious Head to earn his blessings. Yet there are others like me who if they cant do anything of the above, atleast wish for the well-being of our Dai in our hearts.

Now you tell me, about the scarifices that you have made in your life, however small and insignificant toward the service of your community. Dont tell me about the Wajebat, sabeel, silatul Imam, silah fitr etc. These are obligatory which every DB has to do. What is that extra effort you have made in your life out of the ordinary to say that this deserved you the special felicitation from the Dai or any other Dawat dignitaries. (And even if you did that something special it is the prerogative of the Dai to pay attention to it or not, entirely at his own discretion, period). Tell me if you have atleast sacrificed your sleep to get up in the middle of the night every night and pray Salat-e-Shab just to earn the favour of Allah and forgiveness from Him for your sins.

So, first introspect on your own actions and contributions (not only monetary but in kind as well) and then circumspect on what others are doing in the community and the sacrifices people are making or willing to make if capable to earn the Dai's blessings, and then evaluate your argument. If you honestly do this, I am 100% sure you would change your opinion about yourself and others around you.

It would be better if you dont respond to this post but think about it and action on it. Your choice.

bohri
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:12 pm

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#23

Unread post by bohri » Sun May 06, 2012 7:19 am

Adam wrote:Very simply.

The Dai has been appointed by the Imam.
We will "follow" the Dai the same way we follow the Imam, unconditionally. Just like people followed the Prophets, as their leader.
There lies the root cause of all the evils in our community. The Kothar has brainwashed the abdes to equate the Dai with the Prophet (Pbuh).
Adam - why "follow" in quotes? What does that mean?

progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#24

Unread post by progticide » Sun May 06, 2012 7:29 am

bohri wrote:
Adam wrote:Very simply.

The Dai has been appointed by the Imam.
We will "follow" the Dai the same way we follow the Imam, unconditionally. Just like people followed the Prophets, as their leader.
There lies the root cause of all the evils in our community. The Kothar has brainwashed the abdes to equate the Dai with the Prophet (Pbuh).
Adam - why "follow" in quotes? What does that mean?
It means when you "follow" your leader, you should walk behind the leader, like DBs do; not ahead of the leader, like the proggys do, so that one fine day the proggys realise that they have lost the way and turn behind to find no one following them.

SBM
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#25

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 06, 2012 8:04 am

Progticide to HB
Your problem is that you suffer from Inferiority syndrome.

Since you cannot afford a ziyafat for a Qasr-e-ali or Dai himself, or even if you can afford you dont have the courage to part with a sum of money,
Progticide
I know HB is very capable of answering your mis quided inquiry. You are very right HB may not want to part with his money for trivial things like Ziyafat of Qasr-e-Aali which you consider a must while HB has given his money to help poor in Ahmedabad and other places for the Mumineen who can not afford a decent life
SO FOR YOU ZIYAFAT IS MORE IMPORTANT WHILE FOR HB HELPING THE POOR IS MORE IMPORTANT THAT REALLY SHOWS WHAT YOUR PRIORITIES ARE AND I KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE ONE SUFFERING FROM INFERIORITY COMPLEX SINCE ZIYAFATS WILL ELEVATE YOUR PLACE IN ABDE COMMUNITY WHILE HB AND OTHERS WANT TO RAISE THE STATUS OF UNFORTUNATE DOWN ON THEIR LUCK MUMINEEN

SBM
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#26

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 06, 2012 8:09 am

progticide wrote:
bohri wrote: There lies the root cause of all the evils in our community. The Kothar has brainwashed the abdes to equate the Dai with the Prophet (Pbuh).
Adam - why "follow" in quotes? What does that mean?
It means when you "follow" your leader, you should walk behind the leader, like DBs do; not ahead of the leader, like the proggys do, so that one fine day the proggys realise that they have lost the way and turn behind to find no one following them.
Exactly like people did with YAZID and SHIMR too as they consider them as their leader and made Imam Hussain scarified his and his family's life due to misguided PARJA and one fine day till today we know the truth....

bohri
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:12 pm

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#27

Unread post by bohri » Sun May 06, 2012 8:42 am

progticide wrote:
bohri wrote: There lies the root cause of all the evils in our community. The Kothar has brainwashed the abdes to equate the Dai with the Prophet (Pbuh).
Adam - why "follow" in quotes? What does that mean?
It means when you "follow" your leader, you should walk behind the leader, like DBs do; not ahead of the leader, like the proggys do, so that one fine day the proggys realise that they have lost the way and turn behind to find no one following them.
please be clear on what that means?
  • Follow in his footsteps and take up animal hunting for pleasure?
    Self glorify oneself and ones children?
    Clap our hands loudly and do "wah-wah" when we see him hob-nobbing with Modi - who is under a huge cloud of suspicion of endorsing the butchering of innocent muslims in Gujrat?
    Break all relationships with your family and friends because of fear of social boycott?
    Bend over (literally) and shell out fat salaams every time a Dai;s son or grandson happens to visit, regardless of his age or qualification to receive such sub-servience?

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#28

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun May 06, 2012 8:58 am

Fantastic ! Thanks for responding. You can ignore my replies as you ordered me not to respond.
progticide wrote:After reading your responses and questions and applying the principles of Adaptive Psychology and CBA I have reached a certain conclusion about you. Your problem is not actually the accountability within the community. It is neither the najwa nor salaam nor ziyafat. Your problem is that you suffer from Inferiority syndrome.
With similar research of your intellect, one can also conclude, the Kothari agents (shehzadas, amils, sheikhs, mullahs) who propagate and shout from the rooftops about sacrificing everything on daawat and daai, themselves indulge in extravagance lifestyles, gloating over collected funds given away by generous muheeb bohra mumins. Hypocrites advocate austerity citing example of Imam Ali and themselves live a life of opulence (on other’s wealth)

It is these Kothari agents, who live in insecurity and inferiority syndrome who don’t loose a chance to thump down their positional authority to ensure meek submission and subservience from the commoners. They remain alert about any spark of intellectual rebellion which may shake their control and grip over the masses, further affecting their commercial ambitions and making their plum extravagant life hard.
progticide wrote:Since you cannot afford a ziyafat for a Qasr-e-ali or Dai himself, or even if you can afford you dont have the courage to part with a sum of money, or decide for yourself the best manner to utilise that money in other areas of charity, you find it unacceptable for even others to do what you cannot do or unwilling to do yourself.
Very true ! I cannot afford a ziyafat for a Qasr-e-ali or Dai himself. Rates are too high and overheads are quiet expensive. In fact majority of average commoners cant afford a plum ziyafat. Since the time I have realized the tactics of the kothar, I have released myself from the clutches of financial planners of Kothari inc and now in a better position to spend earned wealth with knowledge of use of funds and pledge money in trustful hands with efforts to be a productive member of the community and world at large.
progticide wrote:You need to understand that People who have money and together have the generosity and desire to utilise it for religious or spiritual purposes are actually sacrificing it in exchange for something that holds more value to them. It is not that these people dont love the money they have earned, nor is it that they are lunatics who know how to make money but not know its importance. But it is their choice and desire that enables them to sacrifice something which is also dear to them for the sake of something that holds greater value to them. It is a matter of POV. Their POV allows them to make this sacrifice of wealth, your POV does not allow you.
There is lot of “something” which is being give away by Kothari Inc in return of buckets of wealth. That “something” is like an invisible special thread which sews the invisible special dress for the emperor parading his streets, now figure who is the thug ?

My POV sees the schemes and cheats. Where crores are received and lakhs given away. When kothar gives, its an official announcement, when an abde gives no one knows. Waah Re Teri Maya !
progticide wrote:But the problem is that you make your POV as a generic argument for all and want everyone to accept your POV. When you are unable to convince others to accept your POV, you start targetting the other extreme namely: Dai and Dawat, making them look like the real villians who have taken away the money from you.
I m targetting those Kothari agents representing Kothari Inc who shout from the rooftops to sacrifice everything (maaal) on daawat and daai. We see envelopes are circuated wth predetermined amounts on every occasion whenever there is tour planned (muharram, Ramadan or others), ziyafats are arranged with target amounts, kadambosi passes, kadam passes, talaqqi, nikaah, misaaak etc are priced and distributed in public.

Salaam without money is bad manners !! Do you know !!
progticide wrote:The question is not money, the question is sacrifice. Those who have money are willing to make a sacrifice of their money and wealth to express their devotion to their Guru, their Peshwa, their spiriual Head. This is their way of expressing their love, devotion, sacrifice, whatever you call it. Those who dont have money but physical abilities sacrifice their time and energy toward the service of the community, this way they express their devotion to their Master, their Guide. Others who dont have any of the above, but can contribute through their knowledge, serve the community through religious and educational practices, some devote themselves to extensive prayers and recition of Quran and other religious scriptures in Masjids and Markaz, some offer their services in scouts and guards, some offer their services at Dargahs and seminaries, yet others offer their services in Mawaid and community gatherings etc. All these people in some form or other sacrifice a part of their life and living as a form of devotion to their religious Head to earn his blessings. Yet there are others like me who if they cant do anything of the above, atleast wish for the well-being of our Dai in our hearts.
I agree with you ! bohra mumins are giving away whatever they can, in any capacity. Literally by Jaan and Maal in love, affection, trust and faith, for betterment of society and comfortable life to our Dai. What are they given in return ? the “something”, the subservient back bent, kneeling, eyes lowered scared look in presence of the raza na sahebs.

Khidmatguzaars are doing khidmat from all possible means from those who are taking care of chappals to ones who are giving away crores. Yet, salaams are taken away by plum sheikhs and amils sitting in their offices serenading on their revolving chairs exposing their knees and feets for kisses.

No one is denying this khidmats of bohra mumins, every orthodoxed bohra is doing khidmat by means which you have very well expressed. By money and efforts. Shame on those jamat office holders who are embezzling and cheating daawat. And dancing in disgust when accountability of funds are seeked from them.
progticide wrote:Now you tell me, about the scarifices that you have made in your life, however small and insignificant toward the service of your community. Dont tell me about the Wajebat, sabeel, silatul Imam, silah fitr etc. These are obligatory which every DB has to do. What is that extra effort you have made in your life out of the ordinary to say that this deserved you the special felicitation from the Dai or any other Dawat dignitaries. (And even if you did that something special it is the prerogative of the Dai to pay attention to it or not, entirely at his own discretion, period). Tell me if you have atleast sacrificed your sleep to get up in the middle of the night every night and pray Salat-e-Shab just to earn the favour of Allah and forgiveness from Him for your sins.
I don’t wish to beat my own drum, but the very right of asking accountability comes when one contributes to the community, be it jaan and maal. I don’t have to justify to thugs who have turned blind eye to honest contributions from the commoners and are amassing wealth with impunity and self declared trumpeting ownership of everyone and everything.

Ask this questions to Kothari agents (Shehzadas, amils, sheikhs) how much have they sacrificed for the community; demanding unnecessary renewed furniture, cars, bunglows and pompous royal treatments, chauffer driven cars and subservient hospitality. Making elders bow to their youngest of kids, demanding and negotiating ikraam funds.
progticide wrote:So, first introspect on your own actions and contributions (not only monetary but in kind as well) and then circumspect on what others are doing in the community and the sacrifices people are making or willing to make if capable to earn the Dai's blessings, and then evaluate your argument. If you honestly do this, I am 100% sure you would change your opinion about yourself and others around you.
One shall rather work towards betterment of the community to earn Allah’s blessing as its Allah to reward. Sayedna Saheb will definitely be happy to see community prosper, which will also earn Dai’s blessings. So how do you want me to change my opinion or what standard shall I evaluate my arguments on.

Shall I ….

Ignore embezzlement of funds by Amils, sheikhs without any punitive measures from the top, and still keep paying up.
Bend and kneel in front of amils and sheikhs by virtue of their appointment.
Believe in outwardly forced appearance of Daadhi and Topi to present myself as pious and obedient.
Remain in submission and pushed around by segregation of people by virtue of titles.
Measure walayaat by money.
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So can you provide your comments on the questions I have been presenting. Or you can continue to beat around the bush. Its your choice. Both are welcome.

Adam
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#29

Unread post by Adam » Sun May 06, 2012 10:16 am

Adam - why "follow" in quotes? What does that mean?


You used the word "worship".
I used the word "follow". That's why in quotes.

Nothing to get excited about :)

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Sun May 06, 2012 10:49 am

Since you cannot afford a ziyafat for a Qasr-e-ali or Dai himself,
Ah!! The abde idiot hit the nail on the head. No moolah, No DB Maula!!!!

One of the signs of the prophet (saw) that was given to Salma Farsi was that his followers would be primarily from the poor. The poor were the closest to the prophet (saw). This Dai won't even let you kiss his feet without an envelope. Not sure why people would want to pay for such humiliation. Well, if they had that much sense, they wouldn't be abde idiots now would they?