Adam, please respond to this post

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Hanif
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#31

Unread post by Hanif » Sun May 06, 2012 5:42 pm

Adam wrote:Very simply.

The Dai has been appointed by the Imam.
We will "follow" the Dai the same way we follow the Imam, unconditionally. Just like people followed the Prophets, as their leader.
All the ayats you posted have to do with Shirk, believing in multiple Gods.
The Imam is a VASILAH to Allah. And the Dai a Vasilah to the Imam.
Very simple.

Your comments have a touch of Wahabi belief of not following a Vasilah.

However, you don't need to ask this question to me only.
You can ask:
A Shia - for he believes in Imam Ali in the same way
A Proggy - for he "supposedly" believes until the 46th Dai the same way.


Dai Zoeb was appointed by Huratul Malika. She claims to have met the baby Tayeb, who could not even speak. Besides, there is no proof of her seeing the Imam. She was an abde but not a pious person.

No Dai in the Fatimid time was worshipped like the Bohora Dai of today. In fact, no Imam was equally worshipped. On the contrary the Fatimid Imams claimed to be servants of Allah SWT.

Dai is not a Vaillah to Imam. Imam is in Satr. He is the Vasillah. There cannot be two Vasillahs.

Hanif
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#32

Unread post by Hanif » Sun May 06, 2012 6:05 pm

Shows your lack of understanding of Fatimid belief.

They never "worshiped" the Dai.

But they unconditionally followed every Imam and Dai as an infallible leader.

They even gave Sajda to them. Quran, Kitab al Himmah. (refer Ilm na Moti Jaro of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin)

So you see, the proggies followed a set of beliefs and then suddenly decided to change everything and reject it.
Fatimid belief is: Imam is infallible. Agreed. But If the Dai was infallible, take for example Abu Abdallah Shihh, then why did the Imam have him killed? Dai's are only missionaries, and they can never be infallibles. Please stop giving twist to the Fatimid history to suit yourself. Don't bring your brainwashing sabak material to this forum without proof. If you have proof, then please quote so we can all see. In the Qur'an sajda was ordered to Adam by Allah SWT but He has not ordered sajdas to anybody since, including the Prophet SAW. Please quote to us what is said in Ilm na Moti jaro for we have no access to them. Imams from the progeny of the Ahle Bayt are the only infallibles according to the Shia belief. You claim that your dai is from the progeny of Imam Jaffar Sadiq, and I proved you wrong, You did not contest it. Why? Again no Dai is infallible. Prove me wrong.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#33

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun May 06, 2012 7:22 pm

Hanif wrote:You claim that your dai is from the progeny of Imam Jaffar Sadiq, and I proved you wrong, You did not contest it. Why? Again no Dai is infallible. Prove me wrong.
Bro Hanif,

Abdes like Adam dont rely on proofs, they only rely on whatever crap is fed to them by their masters, a typical slave mentality. There is no reasoning, logic or rational thinking as they lack the basic knowledge of comparative study of religion as they are prohibited from mingling with muslims of other sects lest they spill the beans. Dont you here kotharis preventing abdes from attending even shia majlis during mohurrum although bohras too are shias so sunnis are too far. There is no restriction when it comes to hindus and the ground reality is that they prefer to be friendly with hindus rather then people from the Prophet's Ummah.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#34

Unread post by Aarif » Mon May 07, 2012 11:32 am

Adam wrote:One who is infallible will never violated the principles of Islam
If you believe that the current Dai is not violating any principles of Islam then please refute my first post in this thread in the light of holy Quran. The present Dai promotes human worship. He allows his followers to perform sajda to him. He came up with the ritual of compulsory two rakat namaz for the Dai. Even the prophet never came up with such a ritual. The present Dai is so confident on himself that he does not even say Inshallah. I attended one 9th day waez in Muharram where Syedna said that "Kaale mein yahaan aawi ne aa takhat per besi ne Imam Husain ni sahadat parish" and did not even bother to say Inshallah. The current Dai promises Jannat to his followers. Only Allah can grant you Jannat and no one else. How can Syedna promise jannat to his followers? There are many other actions that the Dai and his followers perform that are highly unislamic such as unnecessary matam at every occasion whether it be Eid or Ashura. Instead of avoiding my posts and giving this silly one line answers be a man and accept what is wrong with your Dai.

SBM
Posts: 6241
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#35

Unread post by SBM » Mon May 07, 2012 12:01 pm

The present Dai is so confident on himself that he does not even say Inshallah. I attended one 9th day waez in Muharram where Syedna said that "Kaale mein yahaan aawi ne aa takhat per besi ne Imam Husain ni sahadat parish" and did not even bother to say Inshallah.
Br Aarif
In defense of Syedna if you noticed the way he does waiz, due to his ill health I am not sure what is saying, he is reading what is written for him and rather blaming Syedna I think blame goes to his handlers. Unfortunately Syedna has become a puppet in the hands of his greedy family who could care less for his old age and health. Adam/Progticide will refute these charges as according to him he is infalliable
Such a sorry state of affairs :cry:

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#36

Unread post by Aarif » Mon May 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Dont tell me about the Wajebat, sabeel, silatul Imam, silah fitr etc. These are obligatory which every DB has to do.
According to holy Quran only zakat is obligatory. The present Dai and his father have introduced N number of ridiculous and fancy taxes on poor bohras.
Now you tell me, about the scarifices that you have made in your life, however small and insignificant toward the service of your community.
Since you have brought up the topic of sacrifice, I was just wondering what sacrifice the Dai has made for the community? The present Dai travels in Rolls Royce and private jets when some poor bohras cannot even afford to travel by local trains. The Dai eats the choicest of foods while some bohras cannot even afford two square meals. The Dai lives in a luxurious palace when some bohras cannot even afford a roof on their heads. Inspite of being a billionare the Dai chooses to fleece his poor followers of their hard earned money. Now on the other hand consider the conduct of Maulana Ali since bohras consider themselves as Shias. Maualana Ali use to feed best food to the poor and only eat piece of bread dipped in salt water. He use to stitch his own clothes. He spent his life serving the prophet and Islam. Also, look at the sacrifice he and his family gave for Islam. The present Dai rides in Rolls Royce from his palace to masjid, sits on a high takhat, talks about the simplicity of Prophet, Maulana Ali and his family, collects tons of salaam money, eats best of the food and goes back to his palace. The Dai is certainly a great example of human service and sacrifice.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#37

Unread post by Aarif » Mon May 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Bro SBM,

For a Muslim Inshallah should always be on the tip of the tongue. Everything happens in this world with the will of Allah. A good muslim should never make futuristic predictions without using the word Inshallah. Even though the people who are writing for Syedna make these mistakes, Syedna as a representive of Allah on earth and as a true Dai appointed by the Imam should at least remeber Allah if not anything else. A Dai who will remember Allah only if it is written in his script is indeed a sorry excuse for this spiritual position.

Adam
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#38

Unread post by Adam » Mon May 07, 2012 1:18 pm

@Hanif (Another so-called confused Proggy on the Forum)
Dai Zoeb was appointed by Huratul Malika. She claims to have met the baby Tayeb, who could not even speak. Besides, there is no proof of her seeing the Imam

This is incorrect. She did not meet the 21st Imam.
Dai Zoeb was appointed by Moulatena Hurratul Maleka by the Imam Amir.

No Dai in the Fatimid time was worshipped like the Bohora Dai of today. In fact, no Imam was equally worshipped. On the contrary the Fatimid Imams claimed to be servants of Allah SWT.

You're half correct.
Yes, no Imam or Dai was "worshiped", and neither is the Dai being "worshiped". They were and are being followed with the highest respect unconditionally.
If you knew anything about Fatimi belief, you would have known that the Imam (eg Imam Mustansir) was referred to by Syedna Moiyed as the haqiqi ka'ba.

Dai is not a Vaillah to Imam. Imam is in Satr. He is the Vasillah.

Dai is the Vasilah to the Imam, the Imam is the Vasilah to Allah.
It's a connection.

Fatimid belief is: Imam is infallible. Agreed. But If the Dai was infallible, take for example Abu Abdallah Shihh, then why did the Imam have him killed? Dai's are only missionaries, and they can never be infallibles. Please stop giving twist to the Fatimid history to suit yourself. Don't bring your brainwashing sabak material to this forum without proof. If you have proof, then please quote so we can all see


The Dai Muthlaq in place of the Imam in Satr is infallible. Reference Syedna Hatim and Syedi Lukmanjee.

Sajda

Quran = Sajdo to Adam AS and Yusuf AS
Fatimid texts - Kitab al Himmah, Majalis Musayarat
Recent - Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin says "Sajda dai karjo salaam"

Imams from the progeny of the Ahle Bayt are the only infallibles according to the Shia belief. You claim that your dai is from the progeny of Imam Jaffar Sadiq, and I proved you wrong, You did not contest it. Why? Again no Dai is infallible. Prove me wrong.


Imam is infallible.
The Dai Muthlaq appointed by the Imam in Satr is infallible (it doesn't matter where he's from the progeny of the Imams).

NOW. I've given my opinions to your question. HANIF, you answer my SIMPLE questions:

What's your opinion on the 21 Imams & Duaat? (You don't seem to respect Moultena Hurratul Maleka in your post, so i'm just wondering).
Simple question.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Mon May 07, 2012 1:25 pm

They were and are being followed with the highest respect unconditionally.
Following someone for the abde idiots means - standing with folded hands and bent backs. Doing sajda which is prohibited by Allah in the Quran. Singing Ghanoo Jeevo Ghanoo Jeevo. This is not following. This is worshipping.
Dai is the Vasilah to the Imam, the Imam is the Vasilah to Allah.
Too many middle men for the abde idiots. The prophet (saw) has given us a direct path to Allah. These middle men are nothing more than middle men making merry on abde stupidity.
The Dai Muthlaq in place of the Imam in Satr is infallible.
Accept when he says things for which he later has to apologize publicly.
Imam is infallible.
And yet, he is hiding!!

Adam
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#40

Unread post by Adam » Mon May 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Adam wrote:@Hanif (Another so-called confused Proggy on the Forum)
Dai Zoeb was appointed by Huratul Malika. She claims to have met the baby Tayeb, who could not even speak. Besides, there is no proof of her seeing the Imam

This is incorrect. She did not meet the 21st Imam.
Dai Zoeb was appointed by Moulatena Hurratul Maleka by the Imam Amir.

No Dai in the Fatimid time was worshipped like the Bohora Dai of today. In fact, no Imam was equally worshipped. On the contrary the Fatimid Imams claimed to be servants of Allah SWT.

You're half correct.
Yes, no Imam or Dai was "worshiped", and neither is the Dai being "worshiped". They were and are being followed with the highest respect unconditionally.
If you knew anything about Fatimi belief, you would have known that the Imam (eg Imam Mustansir) was referred to by Syedna Moiyed as the haqiqi ka'ba.

Dai is not a Vaillah to Imam. Imam is in Satr. He is the Vasillah.

Dai is the Vasilah to the Imam, the Imam is the Vasilah to Allah.
It's a connection.

Fatimid belief is: Imam is infallible. Agreed. But If the Dai was infallible, take for example Abu Abdallah Shihh, then why did the Imam have him killed? Dai's are only missionaries, and they can never be infallibles. Please stop giving twist to the Fatimid history to suit yourself. Don't bring your brainwashing sabak material to this forum without proof. If you have proof, then please quote so we can all see


The Dai Muthlaq in place of the Imam in Satr is infallible. Reference Syedna Hatim and Syedi Lukmanjee.

Sajda

Quran = Sajdo to Adam AS and Yusuf AS
Fatimid texts - Kitab al Himmah, Majalis Musayarat
Recent - Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin says "Sajda dai karjo salaam"

Imams from the progeny of the Ahle Bayt are the only infallibles according to the Shia belief. You claim that your dai is from the progeny of Imam Jaffar Sadiq, and I proved you wrong, You did not contest it. Why? Again no Dai is infallible. Prove me wrong.


Imam is infallible.
The Dai Muthlaq appointed by the Imam in Satr is infallible (it doesn't matter where he's from the progeny of the Imams).

NOW. I've given my opinions to your question. HANIF, you answer my SIMPLE questions:

What's your opinion on the 21 Imams & Duaat? (You don't seem to respect Moultena Hurratul Maleka in your post, so i'm just wondering).
Simple question.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Mon May 07, 2012 1:54 pm

anajmi wrote:
They were and are being followed with the highest respect unconditionally.
Following someone for the abde idiots means - standing with folded hands and bent backs. Doing sajda which is prohibited by Allah in the Quran. Singing Ghanoo Jeevo Ghanoo Jeevo. This is not following. This is worshipping.
Dai is the Vasilah to the Imam, the Imam is the Vasilah to Allah.
Too many middle men for the abde idiots. The prophet (saw) has given us a direct path to Allah. These middle men are nothing more than middle men making merry on abde stupidity.
The Dai Muthlaq in place of the Imam in Satr is infallible.
Accept when he says things for which he later has to apologize publicly.
Imam is infallible.
And yet, he is hiding!!

Adam
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#42

Unread post by Adam » Mon May 07, 2012 11:12 pm

Hanif.
Waiting for your answer.
Ready when you are. (Sooner the better ;)Anajmi wants to clog up the screen with only his name)

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#43

Unread post by anajmi » Tue May 08, 2012 12:20 am

And you are helping by talking about him and putting his name even in your posts. :wink:

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#44

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue May 08, 2012 1:55 am

mustafanalwalla wrote:This was a wonderful post.

anyways, there is a lot of truth in what Progticide has said. If one cannot sacrifice ones money, time or energy, then the least one can do is wish well for the Dai.
Indeed it’s a wonderful post, if kothar would like to accept the well wishes and khidmat from bohra instead of money. And there are millions of bohras who are praying and wishing well for the Dai day and night. People are sacrificing time, money, energy for Dai and Daawat.

In my personal opinion, I have no complaints about paying up, I pay voluntary and compulsory, I understand funds are needed. Niether I m against a comfortable life lived by sayedna saheb, everyone deserves to live a good life whoever they are. But there has to be a limit. I m pointing at opulent lifestyles lived by Kothari levels. All this holier then thou talks of love and affection has been a cover up and hogwash since many years. Shehzadas Amils and sheikhs will shout from the rooftops how people should be qurbaan from jaan and maal while they come collecting gleefully gloating in pride of their melodrama speech has worked wonders with emotionally gullible bohra mumins giving away in good faith.

I have lived in denial for too long, that corruption is not true. But such extravagance is a glaring example to see. The little good..remain little good in the community while we see this big extravagant display of show and pomp further disconnecting bohras from reality.

There are genuine people, emotionally way led to give away / sacrifice their wealth in wajebaat, salaams, najwas, ziyafats and titles in good faith and affection. If good exists, so is bad, I m not forgetting good, but I cant ignore bad. We have to acknowledge the bad to safeguard the good. If we keep ignoring we will fall in slumber of make-believe and loose touch with reality. This is happening as I write. Think about it.
progticide wrote:Those who dont have money but physical abilities sacrifice their time and energy toward the service of the community, this way they express their devotion to their Master, their Guide.
Very true, and that is what many bohra mumin do, they offer khidmat from jaan and maal. Be it serving jamaan, manage traffic, manage crowd, muallims in schools and sheikhs in jaamat etc. The sad irony is when amils / Kothari leaders exploit love of this commoners. Why, please tell me why. Kadambosi passes, kadam, nikaah, misaaak, talaqqi, ikram, greetings are monetory. Why is the respect / love / affection measured in money yaar !... why does people who offer salaam without money are taken by surprise ?
progticide wrote:Others who dont have any of the above, but can contribute through their knowledge, serve the community through religious and educational practices, some devote themselves to extensive prayers and recition of Quran and other religious scriptures in Masjids and Markaz, some offer their services in scouts and guards, some offer their services at Dargahs and seminaries, yet others offer their services in Mawaid and community gatherings etc. All these people in some form or other sacrifice a part of their life and living as a form of devotion to their religious Head to earn his blessings. Yet there are others like me who if they cant do anything of the above, atleast wish for the well-being of our Dai in our hearts.

A khidmatguzar was taken by the side and told by the assistant of Amil (who was also his son-in-law) not to do salaam if he dint have money. As salam without money is disrespectful. That particular majlis was to facilitate Khidmatguzaar after ramadan for their services ! do you see the cruel Irony.

My family has been instructed on several ocassions (My and siblings Misaaks, sister’s wedding, Uncle funeral, Nephew’s Chatti, Akika and jaman) how much money shall be placed in the salaam covers, and amounts are expensive that we have to negotiate. And its quiet humiliating in an intimidating environment of dewri.

I had gone to Dewri for some raza, unaware that I must do money salaam, the sheikhs at office enquired and ensured of money salaam before letting me into the amil’s office.

My mother was going on Panjatan Ziyarat tour, after paying up all charges (tickets, accommodation, hoob), before embarking on the trip, they were asked to pay laagat. My mom is a devout abde, she too was surprised at the demand.

My father was excluded from Tanzeem committee from local markaz, because he objected with compulsory levies of Ramadan hoob, there were more then enough funds to see through Ramadan arrangements.

So my points are, commoners toe the line out of faith,affection, love and well wish of the Dai. But what is jamaat / kothar / leaders doing back to them. Only sweet mushy talks and lip service to display their affection. I m not generalizing my above experiences and paint the whole picture wrong. Experiences such as above are representative of situation / mindset / ground realities which is shadowed in show and pomp bandwagon in our community.

We are given this divertive speeches to avoid accountability. I m asking again, how / why does asking for accountability is wrong in the community ?

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Adam, please respond to this post

#45

Unread post by Aarif » Wed May 09, 2012 12:46 pm

Adam has failed to provide answer to my question raised in original post of this thread. This essentially means that he agrees to the fact that bohras have deviated from Islam under the current Dai. On one hand Bohras are not even Muslims and on the other hand Adam refers to holy Quran to justify his theory of Imamat. What a shame..