Sajdah - us Shukr

[Guest]

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>When we prostrate before Allah we say his praises. What does one say when he/she prostrates before somebody other than Allah. And what is the niyat that one has to take before making this prostration before somebody other than Allah

[Guest]

Dear Anajmi,<br>When you prostrate before Allah...you would be niyyat of worshipping Him.<p>When doing sajad as'sukar ...they is no niyyat except to thank Allah for what/whom is in front of you. You not prostrating in worship...note the key word WORSHIP..of anyone.

[Guest]

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>I need you to check once again with people who prostrate before those other than Allah. Do they only thank Allah in their prostrations or is it something else. If one has to only thank Allah for the person, wouldn't it be better to prostrate in front of Allah and thank him for the person in question? That way you would be able to thank Allah for all the people without having to prostrate before anybody. Let me know your thoughts.

[Guest]

Dear Br. Anajmi,<br>Why does it matter? The entire world is there to thank Allah for...does it matter where you do it. Why would someone go to a ziyarat to say salam and sukar to the person and thank Allah at home..instead of doing it at the time?? This my understanding of the issue.<p>Again your wording is misleading..."..people who prostrate before those other than Allah." Your inadvertantly tying worshiping Allah with the act of prostration exclusively. You can worship Allah standing, sitting, prostrating, etc. In fact, in Ramadhan, every breath you taking while fasting is an ibadat or worshipment of Allah. When we worship Allah, we do it both physically and mentally at the same time...you can't separate the two. If you do the other is now void as well.<br>

[Guest]

Would"it be better if you define the word worship first? You can then compare your action, such as sujud, performed before Allah and someone other than Allah. <p>For example:<p>1. Worship = Praise<p>You can praise Allah and you can praise a person.<p>2. Worship = Asking for a favour<p>You can ask Allah and you can ask a person.<p>3. worship = sujud<p>You can do sujud to a person but not to Allah unless you can identify where Allah is specifically. If Allah is everywhere, then you can do sujud to rverything and everybody.<p>4. worship = asking for entry to paradise<p>You can ask Allah or you can ask a person. The person may not be able to grant you your wish. But hell, what is wrong in asking. Just in case....

[Guest]

So there is at least one difference between sujud to Allah and sujud to Dai.<p>You can do sujud to Allah anywhere and everywhere. You can do sujud to the Dai only in fron of him.<p>However, since it would be difficult to continually change the direction in which you do sujud to Allah, I suggest you chose one direction. And do sujud to anything and anyone in that direction. If you are in saf, you are obviously prostrating to the back of someone in front of you. Tha is traditional and ok, we can pretend we are doing sujud to Allah and not to the back of the person in front.... <p>worship = love<p>You can love Allah and you can love the Dai. Although, I am constantly amazed at how one can love something as abstract as Allah.

[Guest]

Dear Porus,<br>Good point.<p>I use the word "worship" in the method that Allah uses the word in the Quran. This is as ibadat of Him, as the Creator, Sustainer, Merciful, etc. Worship as the One God of the Prophets.<p>I don't use the word as man has in history applied the use of the word. I don't worship the ground somebody walks on..etc.<p>It is because of the fact we cannot comprehend Allah in any sense that we love Allah in an abstract form as you've noted. But to love somebody (emotionally) is a sensical experience..to love Allah is not.<p>To do sujud to Allah in ibadat (worship) can be done anywhere..Allah told us to face the Kaba in all times doing this. But to do sujud for someone as an act of praise would not make sense to do just anywhere.

[Guest]

worship = reciting verses from Quraan etc. in various bodily postures such as standing, ruku, sujood etc. Done normally facing the Kaaba in Makkah. Muslims consider this worshipping Allah.<p>In this sense, you worship Allah. Since you do not do this while doing a sujood to the Dai, you are obviously not worshipping the Dai in the same sense that you are worshiiping Allah.

[Guest]

The following is an excerpt from Sunnis' literature:<p><br>The word Sajdah in the Shari’h is meant that while doing Sajdah eight parts of the human body must touch the ground, namely both feet (toes), both the knees, both the arms (hands), nose and the forehead, with the express intention (Niyah) of doing Sajdah. Without the clear intention of Sajdah if a person lies on the ground by bending his legs and feet (as is susally done when some one feels extreme cold or he is inflicted with some ailment), this will not mean Sajdah. Therefore, to kiss the feet of the elders or pious persons is not Sajdah since it does not satisfy the conditions of Sajdah.<p>Sajdah is of two kinds:<p>(a) Sajdah Tahiyah (by way of greeting) is when a person meets some dignitary, then to express his reverence the one meeting the dignitary touches the ground with his forehead, while the Sajdah is to regard some one as a deity or god. <p>(b) Sajdah Ibaadah (worship) is Haraam in every Shari’ah. <p>Sajdah Tahiyat was permissible from the time of Hazrat Adam (alaihis salaam) to the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam). The Angels offered Sajdah before Hazrat Adam (alaihis salaam). Hazrat Yaqub (alaihis salaam) and the brothers of Hazrat Yusuf (alaihis salaam) offered Sajdah to Hazrat Yusuf (alaihis salaam). Later on, this Sajdah Tahiyah was declared as Haraam in the Shari’ah of Islam as well. Any one doing Sajdah-e-Tahiyah is guilty of a sin and committing act of Haraam. But he is not a Mushrik or a Kaafir. He can offer repentance (Taubah) in the presence of Allah.<p>As far as the question of bending before someone is concerned, this bending is of two kinds. If it is by way of respect to anyone, provided it is not to the extent of bending as in Ruku. If it is so then it is Haraam and Islamic Jurists have forbidden this kind of bending. The other kind of bending is while doing some other work such as picking the shoes with a spirit of respect. This latter posture is permissible (Halaal) as it has no tinge of worship.<p>When the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) visited the house of his daughter, Hazrat Fathima Zahra (radi Allahu anha), she would stand up for him in respect, take his hand and kiss it and make him sit in her place. When Hazrat Fathima Zahra (radi Allahu anhu) visited the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), then he would stand up for her, hold her hand and kiss it and allow her to sit in his place. (Abu Dawood; Mishkaat Shareef)<p>Hazrat Abdullah ibn Umar (radi Allahu anhu) says that the Sahaba-e-Ikiram kissed the blessed hands of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam). (Abu Dawood)<p>Hadrat Ashbah (radi Allahu anhu) went to the court of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), held the hand of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and kissed it. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said, "In you there are two habits which is dear to Almighty Allah and the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam)." (Adabul Mufrad) From this incident it is clear that the kissing of the hands is a desired action, which was even preferred by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).<p>Once, two Jews came to the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and asked him a question. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) answered them. Thereafter, they kissed the hands and the feet of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and told him that they bear testimony that he is a Nabi. (Tirmizi Shareef; Mishkaat Shareef)<p>A man came to the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and told him that he had taken a vow that should Allah Ta'ala grant Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) victory over Makkah, he would go the Holy Kaaba and kiss the chaukat. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) instructed him: "Go and kiss the feet of your mother. Your vow will be complete." (Umdatul Qaari)<p>Imam Ghazzali (radi Allahu anhu) states that Hazrat Abu Ubaidah bin Jarrah (radi Allahu anhu) kissed the hand of Hazrat Umar Farouk (radi Allahu anhu). (Kimya-e Sa'adat; Awaariful Mu'aarif)<p>Whenever the Sahaba-e-Ikraam would return from a journey they would embrace one another and kiss the hands of one another. (Bustaanul Arifeen)<p>It is said in "Alamgiri", Bab Mulaqatul Muluk, that if someone kisses the hand of a learned Scholar or the just King because of his erudition (learning) and the quality of justice with his people then there is no harm in it.<p>

[Guest]

So some Sunni dignitaries have declared sajdah tahiya haraam.<p>Fine. Who told them to do this? Prophet was persumably gone when they decided this.<p>Looks like they have no authority from anyone regarding this except their own. So we can safely ignore them.

[Guest]

Dear Brothers,<p>You guys sure know how to spin an issue. I asked you is it ok to prostrate in front of Allah and thank him for the person in question? Please do not ask me whether everything else is ok or not. Let's say everything else is not ok for one reason or another. The topic of discussion is sajdah and not ziyarat.<p>So is it right or not to prostrate before Allah and thank him for the person in question?

[Guest]

Worship - I think it means that one is to believe that no one other than the one being worshipped can help you to get what you want or to help you solve your problems.<p>When we are in a difficult situation we ask Allah to help us ( ofcourse we can ask many others to help solve our problems) but a true believer is one who believes that Allah used these people to help him/her solve his/her problems. I guess worship to some extent is what you do but to a very great extent it is something that you believe in.

[Guest]

You can thank Allah for anything and everything. That includes people, specially those close to you.

[Guest]

Dear Anajmi,<br>I am not exacting sure where anyone tried to "put a spin" on something.<p>"So is it right or not to prostrate before Allah and thank him for the person in question?"<p>The sajad as'sukar or sajad at'tahiyat (same thing) is something you do a person (whether in front of them or at a grave) in a manner of saying salams. Your thanking Allah for this person..not prostrating before Allah.<p>The questions I posed were rhetoric questions. It doesn't matter where you are in the world...you are able to thank Allah. But it is more appropriate to thank Him at the time of the meeting; this is why I brought up the example of going on ziyarat. What is the point of going on a ziyarat...just to come home and then give sajad as'sukar...it would have been more appropriate when you were at the grave.<p>"I guess worship to some extent is what you do but to a very great extent it is something that you believe in."<p>This is another point I raised..to perform "worship to Allah" it must be done both physically and mentally; not just one or the other.<p>This is why sajad as'sukar cannot be considered a form of worship...your mentally not worshipping Allah when doing it.

[Guest]

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>I am a simple and an umcomplicated man. What I cannot comprehend is this - to thank Allah for somebody you have to bow down in front of that person, but you have to be thanking Allah and not that person. Is this a religious dictat? Also (and I am asking this again - and a simple yes or no would do) is it Islamically ok for me to thank Allah for the person in question by bowing down in front of Allah and not the person in question?

[Guest]

is it Islamically ok for me to thank Allah for the person in question by bowing down in front of Allah<p>Yes.<br>

[Guest]

Dear Anajmi and for that matter Muslim,<p>"is it Islamically ok for me to thank Allah for the person in question by bowing down in front of Allah and not the person in question?"<p>How exactly does one bow down in front of Allah???<p>If you mean in sujud in worship then yes..but this is not sajad as'sukar and cannot be done to or for any person.<p>If you mean in sujud not in worship then this can be done for anyone.<p>The key is "in worship of". To thank Allah is not inself worshiping Allah.

[Guest]

is it Islamically ok for me to thank Allah for the person in question by bowing down in front of Allah -Yes.-<p>The next question one should ask is, where is Allah? Surely he is not sitting there with our Dai, or in front/ beside/behind or on top of Sayedna. Then, why is it required to do the Sajda as-Shukur facing Sayedna? And Shukur can only be to Allah and not to any human being.<p>Sajda is an action in which eight parts of the human body must touch the ground. It can be done in Namaaz or it can be done at other time while not performing the Namaz (this is called Sajda as Shukur). There is some verse in Holy Quran while we read we do Sajda. Performing this Sajda is not a part of Namaaz. <p>Allah Swt, Our Prophet and Imam forbade Sajda to anything except which we do to Allah swt at anytime and not to any tree, sun, human being, structure or anything no matter how respectful we think this 'creatures' are they don't deserve your sajda. <p>The reason why we cannot do Sajda to others is clearly explain by Prophet Muhammad Saw. When he entered Medina, an old Bedouin came to him and start prostrate towards our Prophet and was stopped by him. He told the Bedouin that Sajda should not be done to any human being willingly. He mentioned again that it is Haram to humiliate self because it is against human dignity. The act of Sajda is the lowest form of self-humiliation. <p>The nature of Sajda (touching your head down to ground) is the reason why we cannot do it to anyone or anything except Allah swt. Moulana Ali told his follower that when you are sleeping you should always use a pillow or something under your head as to make your head a bit upper and not in the same level as your other body part. We have something that no other creature of Allah has that is Aqal. This Aqal is the reason why Angel (Malaikah) was order to prostrate to Adam Nabi (as). <p>Personally I don’t mind doing Sajda to my Father and mother because I believe they truly deserve it, but I cannot even do that because Allah doesn’t allow me to do that. Allah owns my soul, and that’s why we can only worship him (Allah) and that is also the reason why we cannot take away soul (suicide). Prophet (sa) has showed us great example in his life of how to treat people respectfully. Everyone is aware of how respectful he was to his daughter (lady Fatima), his brother Ali Ibn Abi Talib, and how he treated his Children Al-Hassan And Al-Husayn. The greatest Prophet like him didn’t consider Sajda to be done on him but a lesser mortal like Sayedna telling us Sajda tane wajib chey. If he meant to Allah swt, good, if not, then very bad!<p>There was never any mentioned of anyone from Muslim Ummah doing Sajda to the greatest personalities of Islam. In fact when a man and his son came to visit Moula Ali, he (Imam Ali) washed his guest hands as a sign of respect. Until today I can never understand what kind of arrogant a person must be to expect another one to prostrate in front him.

[Guest]

What I mean by bowing down in front of Allah is bowing down facing the Kaaba and saying subhana rabbeal aala wataala 3 times. <p>If the purpose of me for bowing down in front of Allah is something different, like say I want a ferrari, so after saying the above I will ask Allah to give me a ferrari or if I want a million dollars, after doing the above I will ask for a million dollars, and if I want to thank Allah for whatever he has given me then I will do the above and thank Allah.<p>Now I will not ask you any more questions cause I have my answers. Well, before I started this topic I believed that I may be wrong about sajdah - us - shukr, but after reading your responses, I am convinced that this is nothing but a concoction of the bohra imagination. Only a way to slowly brainwash the bohras into worshipping the dai, if they aren't already.

[Guest]

<br>Br. anajmi<p>Very well said. Finally you have come to conclusion that it is useless to argue with people like qiyam.<p>Please ask him, how many Bohra's actually do 'Niyah' like 'I am kissing Syedana's feet to thank Allah for making him our leader'?<p>Finaly I like to partially qoute 41:Ayah 17 (Yusuf Ali) As to the Thamud We gave them guidance but they preferred blindness (of heart) to Guidance;-----<p>There are many Aya's like this in Glorious Quran. and you can insert Bohra for Thamud and understand the implication. And This is the preciously reason Bohras are not allowed to understand Quran.<p>Brother qiyam. I mean no offense to you. <p>Wasalaam<p><br>

[Guest]

"I am convinced that this is nothing but a concoction of the bohra imagination."<p>I am totally in agreement with you there. That applies to everything anyone believes. It is specially true about religion.<p>It is very true about Allah. If you really believe he exists, then prove it. <p>Woe to thee, O, thou brainwashed masses.

[Guest]

Dear Anajmi and MuslimFirst,<br>I don't get it...you will believe in a belief you yourselves have concocted. "I will thank Allah for the things I get and want and everyone else is false". This is your idea and opinion..and it is not supported by either Quran or Sunnah. My God, Anajmi posted hadiths of the Prophet allowing sajad as'sukar and still ignores it because some scholar said it is haram now. Who the hell are they? The Prophet never denounced it nor any Imam.<p>MuslimFirst...the more you cut and paste ayats from the Quran to suit your stance...shows me more and more how little you know about the Quranic message.<p>And Dear Jinx, please the original thread where I presented the entire hadith...the Prophet forbade it because the beduion, just newly converted, would think the Prophet is a form of Allah...so he didn't allow it..not because the act is forbidden. He allowed it on many other occassions.<p>IT IS AMAZING HOW WELL YOU PEOPLE FORGET!!!

[Guest]

What if a person doesn't prostrate infront of Sayedna, does it mean that he/she has commited a sin ?

[Guest]

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>I asked a simple question and you refuse to answer, beating around the bush. What I asked was is it ok to do it this way. A no from you would've ended the conversation.

[Guest]

Dear Anajmi,<br>I answered your question several times, if you didn't understand my answer that is a different issue, but don't deny that I tried answering it.<p>Your question was vague and ill worded...so I stipulated my answer as follows (not beating around a bush):<p>"When we prostrate before Allah we say his praises. What does one say when he/she prostrates before somebody other than Allah."<p>--Firstly, we don't prostrate before Allah...in salat we pray towards the Kaba and that is it. Allah is no where and everywhere at the same time...He in anyway cannot be defined..so your statement is ill worded.<p>Secondly, your equating worshiping with prostration...they are not the same. You can worship in prostration just as you can worship in ruku or standing. But you can also prostrate, standing, bend, etc and not be in worship. This is where sajad as'sukar comes in.<p><br>"And what is the niyat that one has to take before making this prostration before somebody other than Allah"<p>---this is the issue...there is no niyyat for a prostration, standing, or sitting for anyone EXCEPT ALLAH...and when a niyyat of worship is taken then it should be only for Allah. Just as one stands up for a teacher in class..no niyyat is taken, the action is out of respect; this is the same with prostration out of respect..no niyyat is taken. Niyyat is arabic for intention...is intention towards something. If in prostration you intention (niyyat) is to worship...then it can only be for Allah. But if your prostration or standing is done out of respect for a person...then your internal intention is only that..out of respect.<p>I hope this clarifies.<br>

[Guest]

Dear Bro Qiyam,<p>You are right. I did not understand your answers. That could be because of my limited capabilities or it could be otherwise.<p>""Your question was vague and ill worded...so I stipulated my answer as follows (not beating around a bush):""<p>This is my question - "If one has to only thank Allah for the person, wouldn't it be better to prostrate in front of Allah and thank him for the person in question?"<p>This is your answer - """How exactly does one bow down in front of Allah???<p>If you mean in sujud in worship then yes..but this is not sajad as'sukar and cannot be done to or for any person.<p>If you mean in sujud not in worship then this can be done for anyone.<p>The key is "in worship of". To thank Allah is not inself worshiping Allah."""<p><br>I would request people to go through this question and answer and determine which is vague and ill worded and I will accept the majority decision. You have to be completely open minded though.<p><br>You say """"When we prostrate before Allah we say his praises. What does one say when he/she prostrates before somebody other than Allah."<p>--Firstly, we don't prostrate before Allah...in salat we pray towards the Kaba and that is it. Allah is no where and everywhere at the same time...He in anyway cannot be defined..so your statement is ill worded.""""<p>Well, after reading this I will need to go back to the basics. I guess everything that I was taught (by a bohra) was BS if I were to believe in Bro Qiyam.<p>You say """Secondly, your equating worshiping with prostration...they are not the same. You can worship in prostration just as you can worship in ruku or standing. But you can also prostrate, standing, bend, etc and not be in worship. This is where sajad as'sukar comes in.""" <p>Now you say prostration is not worshipping. A couple of posts earlier you said thanking Allah was not worshipping him. Please list everything else that we do but is actually not worshipping Allah so that I can stop wasting my time on doing these things and can start spending my time worshipping Allah.<p>You say """this is the issue...there is no niyyat for a prostration, standing, or sitting for anyone EXCEPT ALLAH""" <p>I thought we agreed on the fact that action has absolutely no meaning without a niyyat. So what is the point in this prostration if there is no niyyat associated with or is it time for us to change the rules for Sayedna.<p>Then you talk about internal intention - so is this not niyyat or is it internal niyyat so now do we have two different types of niyyat?<p>Also if it is ok with you we can go through all the examples of this so called sajdah-us-shukr that you provided if it is ok with you and I promise that you will not hear about it from me again.

[Guest]

Dear Bro Porus,<p>I cannot prove that Allah exists. Hey, if the proof given by the prophet wasn't enough, who am I. You have every right to believe that he does not exist.<p>And if believing in Allah is been brainwashed well then so be it. At least these brainwashed have some hope of a good afterlife and that makes it easier for them to face the difficulties of this life. So I guess it has its advantages.

[Guest]

Dear Porus,<p>Proof of Allah the Creator is all around you. Everything in existance is proof of Allah, especially since no one..and I mean NO ONE can prove where it came from. Oh alot of theories..no proof.<p>You attribute this to mere chance..however this in fact is also your own belief (faith). Your faith tells you how the world is now..but it has no proof of how it was created. No actual proof..just a whole lot of theories...and as you said, if a theory is said enough...someone will say it is fact.<p>

[Guest]

<br>Dear Br.anajmi <p>When we offer 'Salah', we are trained to see Allah SWT tru mind's eye, if you cannot echieve that then you are suppose to think that Allah SWT is looking at you. I believe there is a Hadith to this effect. In any case when you are doing sujud (in salah), You are suppose to keep Allah SWT in front of you thru 'eye of your mind and heart'. <p>Wasalaam<p>

[Guest]

"Well, after reading this I will need to go back to the basics. I guess everything that I was taught (by a bohra) was BS if I were to believe in Bro Qiyam."<p>---please specifically cite what I have written differs from what you were taught.<p>"Now you say prostration is not worshipping. A couple of posts earlier you said thanking Allah was not worshipping him. Please list everything else that we do but is actually not worshipping Allah so that I can stop wasting my time on doing these things and can start spending my time worshipping Allah."<p>---Prostration without intention to worship is not an act of worship. As I wrote before, an amal (act) must be done with the intention of worship for it to count as an amal of worship. Also, an intention of worship without its associated amal doesn't count. This is call ibadayn or double observance. It is to inact the zahir and the batin together...without separation. The zahir is the amal and the batin is the intention. Thus you cannot perform fast without the intention that the fact is for Allah. You cannot perform namaz without the intention that the namaz is for Allah. Thus when you perform an amal, such as sajad as'sukar, without the intention of worshipping...it is not counted as worshipping in any form.<p>Example...I give money to a poor person. This cannot be considered sadaqa, a religious action, unless I make the intention that I give this money fi'sabi'Allah.<p>"I thought we agreed on the fact that action has absolutely no meaning without a niyyat. So what is the point in this prostration if there is no niyyat associated with or is it time for us to change the rules for Sayedna."<p>--Correct, an action without intention of worship, is just an action. The prostration is out of respect and we thank Allah for bring that person to us.<p>Please brother if there something unclear let me know. I may think something is clear..but not relayed it clearly.<p>