Progressive Dawoodi Bohra Beliefs

[fatimahussain]

Assalamu alaikum. I am interested in learning more about Bohra Islam. I realized awhile ago that this is one sect of Islam that I have very little knowledge about. I have only heard from traditional Dawoodi Bohras about their beliefs, but not progressive Dawoodi Bohras. I would like to know what are the differences in beliefs and practices of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras vs. traditional Dawoodi Bohras and also Twelver Shi'a. Thank you and I am looking forward to your responses. Allah hafiz.

[profastian]

Assalamu alaikum. I am interested in learning more about Bohra Islam. I realized awhile ago that this is one sect of Islam that I have very little knowledge about. I have only heard from traditional Dawoodi Bohras about their beliefs, but not progressive Dawoodi Bohras. I would like to know what are the differences in beliefs and practices of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras vs. traditional Dawoodi Bohras and also Twelver Shi'a. Thank you and I am looking forward to your responses. Allah hafiz.

The progressive sect is an offshoot of the Dawoodi Bohra sect of Islam. Their beliefs are radically different from those of the Dawoodi Bohras, bordering on Wahabism.

[Muslim First]

profastian_Idiot
The progressive sect is an offshoot of the Dawoodi Bohra sect of Islam. Their beliefs are radically different from those of the Dawoodi Bohras, bordering on Wahabism.

HaHa

[fatimahussain]

Assalamu alaikum. I am interested in learning more about Bohra Islam. I realized awhile ago that this is one sect of Islam that I have very little knowledge about. I have only heard from traditional Dawoodi Bohras about their beliefs, but not progressive Dawoodi Bohras. I would like to know what are the differences in beliefs and practices of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras vs. traditional Dawoodi Bohras and also Twelver Shi'a. Thank you and I am looking forward to your responses. Allah hafiz.

The progressive sect is an offshoot of the Dawoodi Bohra sect of Islam. Their beliefs are radically different from those of the Dawoodi Bohras, bordering on Wahabism.

Could I get a serious answer...........?

[SBM]

Dear Sr Fatima
Welcome to this board. Can I kindly ask you to go thru the Home page of this forum and you may find many useful information about Progressive
If you still need any further help please contact Hussain_KSA or Humsafar, thru PM and I am sure they can guide you in the right direction and will be able to answer many of your questions. Since this is an open forum and no restrictions are placed on people to express, many on the other side try to ridicule the whole concept. Even for a noble cause of helping poor under the thread of "Poverty in Ahmedabad" some are trying to hide their head in the sand
Just for the sake of curiosity, Are you a converted DB and what part of USA do you reside? I am in USA
Once again welcome to this forum.

[porus]

I would like to know what are the differences in beliefs and practices of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras vs. traditional Dawoodi Bohras and also Twelver Shi'a.

Progressive Dawoodi Bohras are traditional Dawoodi Bohras. On this board, the debate tends to be between Dawoodi Bohras (traditional) and a section of them which displays fanatical devotion to the leader of the sect, the Dai, by worshipping him. They are known on this board as 'abdes'. They are not traditional Dawoodi Bohras but a deviant group which, even though it is a minority, is very vocal. They are encouraged in the Dai-worship by the family members of the Dai and their supporters.

As far as the Twelvers are concerned, they are a totally different sect. Twelvers do not worship their Imam yet but they share with Dawoodi Bohras a belief in a fictional existence of a Messiah, called the Hidden or Existent (Hazar) Imam.

[profastian]

I would like to know what are the differences in beliefs and practices of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras vs. traditional Dawoodi Bohras and also Twelver Shi'a.

Progressive Dawoodi Bohras are traditional Dawoodi Bohras. On this board, the debate tends to be between Dawoodi Bohras (traditional) and a section of them which displays fanatical devotion to the leader of the sect, the Dai, by worshipping him. They are known on this board as 'abdes'. They are not traditional Dawoodi Bohras but a deviant group which, even though it is a minority, is very vocal. They are encouraged in the Dai-worship by the family members of the Dai and their supporters.

As far as the Twelvers are concerned, they are a totally different sect. Twelvers do not worship their Imam yet but they share with Dawoodi Bohras a belief in a fictional existence of a Messiah, called the Hidden or Existent (Hazar) Imam.

Yo should also be wary of the resident idiot on the site and the progressive sect, porus. As his brains are addled, he considers, deviants as tranditonal and vice versa, He also considers 100 a majority compared to about a million which he considers a minority.

[Humsafar]

Fatima, there is no such thing as "progressive dawoodi bohra beliefs". We use the word "progressive" because of the reforms we demand in the administration and financial management of the community. Where religion is concerned our beliefs are Dawoodi Bohra beliefs. As porus mentioned above, we are the real dawoodi bohras who follow the real beliefs and traditions of our religion. Those who claim to be mumineen are actually dai worshippers and should be called Burhani abdes. As SBM has pointed out, please read the literature available on this website to gain a proper understanding of our history and knowledge. This kind of free access to knowledge you will never find from abdes.

[fatimahussain]

Dear Sr Fatima
Welcome to this board. Can I kindly ask you to go thru the Home page of this forum and you may find many useful information about Progressive
If you still need any further help please contact Hussain_KSA or Humsafar, thru PM and I am sure they can guide you in the right direction and will be able to answer many of your questions. Since this is an open forum and no restrictions are placed on people to express, many on the other side try to ridicule the whole concept. Even for a noble cause of helping poor under the thread of "Poverty in Ahmedabad" some are trying to hide their head in the sand
Just for the sake of curiosity, Are you a converted DB and what part of USA do you reside? I am in USA
Once again welcome to this forum.

I was a Christian, but then converted to Sunni Islam, and then became a follower of Ahlul Bait (AS).

[fatimahussain]

I would like to know what are the differences in beliefs and practices of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras vs. traditional Dawoodi Bohras and also Twelver Shi'a.

Progressive Dawoodi Bohras are traditional Dawoodi Bohras. On this board, the debate tends to be between Dawoodi Bohras (traditional) and a section of them which displays fanatical devotion to the leader of the sect, the Dai, by worshipping him. They are known on this board as 'abdes'. They are not traditional Dawoodi Bohras but a deviant group which, even though it is a minority, is very vocal. They are encouraged in the Dai-worship by the family members of the Dai and their supporters.

As far as the Twelvers are concerned, they are a totally different sect. Twelvers do not worship their Imam yet but they share with Dawoodi Bohras a belief in a fictional existence of a Messiah, called the Hidden or Existent (Hazar) Imam.

I thought the ones that follow the dai are the majority...?

[anajmi]

fatima,

Why do you think that those who follow Sunni Islam are not the followers of Ahlul Bayt and what do you do differently after you became a follower of Ahlul Bayt as against what you did before?

[fatimahussain]

fatima,

Why do you think that those who follow Sunni Islam are not the followers of Ahlul Bayt and what do you do differently after you became a follower of Ahlul Bayt as against what you did before?

I don't think ill of people from other sects. I just don't like the people who say things like: "Shi'a or kaffar" or "Imam Hussain (AS) was wrong when he rebelled"...It really isn't too different. I go to majlis and celebrate Shi'a holidays. I am most importantly, just a Muslim.

[porus]

I thought the ones that follow the dai are the majority...?

The correct word to use is 'accept'. The majority of the Dawoodi Bohras, including Progressives, accept the current Dai as the rightful occupant of the seat of the Dai al-Mutlaq. Whether they all follow him is a matter for individuals. A minority, the abdes, are not only followers but also worshippers of the Dai and openly engage in shirk. The majority accept but only follow the current Dai with reservations.

[MurtazaVds]

Crap

do not provide the wrong defination of DB faith
and FB do not make ur decision on DB'S faith only after listening single sided post

[fatimahussain]

I thought the ones that follow the dai are the majority...?

The correct word to use is 'accept'. The majority of the Dawoodi Bohras, including Progressives, accept the current Dai as the rightful occupant of the seat of the Dai al-Mutlaq. Whether they all follow him is a matter for individuals. A minority, the abdes, are not only followers but also worshippers of the Dai and openly engage in shirk. The majority accept but only follow the current Dai with reservations.

Ahh. Okay. I think I understand a bit better. And in what ways do the abbes worship the Dai?

[humanbeing]

FH

Spend some time with abde sayedna bohra friends and thier family, watch thier actions and emotions. You will realise difference between affection and worship.

[humble_servant_us]

Porus

Twelvers do not worship their Imam yet

I am happy atleast you acknowledged that shias do not worship their Imams(as). We do not worship anyone other than Allah(Swt).

but they share with Dawoodi Bohras a belief in a fictional existence of a Messiah, called the Hidden or Existent (Hazar) Imam.

This could be fictional as per your perspective. Coming of a messiah Al-Mahdi(as) is accepted by all muslims sects shias and sunnis. You will find a list of hadis from both sects to support this. The only difference is sunnis believe he is yet to be born or arrive, while shias believe he is alive.

Maybe you do not have much information about the concept of Imam Mahdi(as) in shia islam. If you are intrested I can share literature and lectures to explain the belief of shias in Imam Mahdi(as).

[porus]

Allow me to correct you. Its respect and adore, not worship.

There is not much difference between respect and acceptance. Respect is due to every human being by virtue of his God-given life as long as they observe their responsibilities and obligations due to the societies in which they live. Violation of 'respect' for others may, in serious cases, have legal consequences. In that case 'respect' refers to the fear of consequences attendant upon of such violation. A significant number of Bohras respect the Dai in the sense that if they violate the norms of their community, they may become liable, in their view, to some unpleasant consequences.

Adoration is transient and overpowering emotional attachment to the object of adoration. Examples are parent's adoration for their newborn babies and teenage girls swooning at the sight of Shah Rukh Khan. This borders on shirk.

Worship normally implies a ritual signifying total submission. An example is prostration to Allah by Muslims as instructed to them by the Quran. If a ritual commanded by Allah to be performed for Him alone is offered to anyone else, it constitutes shirk. In the Christian tradition, the three kings visiting Jesus on being born in a stable in Bethlehem is often described as "Adoration of Christ". What they really means is "Worship of Christ".

The conclusion is that Bohras respect the Dai, a lot of them adore the Dai and abdes worship the Dai.

[porus]

Porus

Maybe you do not have much information about the concept of Imam Mahdi(as) in shia islam. If you are intrested I can share literature and lectures to explain the belief of shias in Imam Mahdi(as).

That would be interesting but would not advance the subject of this thread. If you wish to clarify then take it to 'Islam Today' forum.

While a lot of ahadith relate to Mahdi, I would dismiss them as fables unless you can quote Allah from the Quran regarding him (the Mahdi) and explain the quotation.

I would make two comments

1. Imam of al-Tayyib's birth and designation as Imam has been historically attested as a fact. Whether he survived the coup against Imam Aamir is questionable. Bohra belief is grounded in that fact. Bohras do not make much hay about the Imam mainly because their focus is on the Dai, who for all practical purposes is the Imam.

2. There is no evidence that the 11th Imam of the Shia ever had a son. Thus, in keeping with the doctrine of Imamat, they invented his existence and also invented hadith about 12 Imams. Shia are even more on the shaky grounds than Bohras because they, the Shia, attribute divinity to their fictional Imam and believe him to to be ever-living.

[Muslim First]

Br Porus

Can you explain
Imam Ja'far Sadiq
Born
17 Rabi-al-Awwal 83 AH/10 Apr 702 (Monday) Medinah
Died
25 Shawwal 148 AH/13 Dec 765 (Fri) Medinah
Taabai, Son of Imam Baqir. He was Imam of Fiqh Ja'fri (Jurisprudence)

Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far (Arabic: إسماعيل بن جعفر‎;
Born
c. 721 CE/103 AH –
Died
755 CE/138 AH)

So Imam Ismail Ibn Jafar died 10 years before Imam Jafar.
Why was he Imam since he did not outlive his father?
JAK

[porus]

Br Porus

So Imam Ismail Ibn Jafar died 10 years before Imam Jafar.
Why was he Imam since he did not outlive his father?
JAK

I have explained this a number of times previously on this board.

Bohras believe that Imam is appointed by divine command. Imam Ismail was appointed Imam by his father and did not cease being one when he died without formally taking office. In this case, Bohras believe that Imam Ismail in turn had appointed his son, Imam Muhammad, to succeed him.

This belief supports two aspects of the Bohra doctrine of Imamat. One is that Imam is infallible and the second is that Imam is appointed by divine decree. Thus, once Imam is announced, he retains that status even if he dies before his father, the incumbent Imam.

Contrary to popular belief, infallibility does not mean that the infallible has knowledge of 'ghayb'. The duration of a person's time on earth is known only to Allah and this knowledge is "ghayb".

[Muslim First]

So there were 2 Imams at the same time.
Imam Jafar and Imam Ismail and even posibly 3rd one Imam Muhammad?
Father, son and Grand son.

And in same vain there are now 2 Dais for Dawoodi Bohras.
Dai Maula Burnuddin and Dai Maulai Muffadal !
Is it so?
JAK

[humble_servant_us]

1. Imam of al-Tayyib's birth and designation as Imam has been historically attested as a fact.

Do we have any hadis from prophet(pbuh) to support this. To start with do you have any hadis in Bohra books about this, not worried about shia/sunni source at this point of time.

2. There is no evidence that the 11th Imam of the Shia ever had a son.

What type of evidence are you looking for.

Thus, in keeping with the doctrine of Imamat, they invented his existence and also invented hadith about 12 Imams. .

Hadis about 12 khalifas/imams is not only in shia books but it also in sunni books. I can cite reference if you want or you can google it yourself.

Shia are even more on the shaky grounds than Bohras because they, the Shia, attribute divinity to their fictional Imam and believe him to to be ever-living.

I don't know what do you mean by divinity. For shias the 12 Imams are successors of the prophet(pbuh) who have been chosen by Allah(Swt) as the leaders for the mankind after the prophet(pbuh). We can present our theory of belief in Imamat and the occulatation of Imam Mahdi(as) maybe some literature can help you.


The question put forward by MF about Imam Jaffer sadiq(as) and Hz Ismail(as) is very intresting and I am sorry but the answer which you have presented raises some questions

Imam is announced, he retains that status even if he dies before his fathe

What is the concept of Imamat in Boharas. Is it just a status or position held or there is a higher goal to be achieved for mankind.

Contrary to popular belief, infallibility does not mean that the infallible has knowledge of 'ghayb'. The duration of a person's time on earth is known only to Allah and this knowledge is "ghayb".

Since Imam is appointed by divine command and not by imam, here the question of knowledge of ghayb of Imam doesn;t arise but it raises a question on knowledge of ghayb of Allah(Swt). What was special about Hz. Ismail, that he was chosen by allah(swt) as Imam but was not able to perform his role as Imam since he died during the life of existing Imam. To understand this maybe you need to answer my first question back- What is the concept of Imamat in Bohra. Is it just a status or position held or there is a higher goal to be achieved for mankind.

[porus]

So there were 2 Imams at the same time.
Imam Jafar and Imam Ismail and even posibly 3rd one Imam Muhammad?
Father, son and Grand son.

And in same vain there are now 2 Dais for Dawoodi Bohras.
Dai Maula Burnuddin and Dai Maulai Muffadal !
Is it so?
JAK

Yes, there were three Imams present on earth during the time of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq according to Bohras. The incumbent and the two on whom nass had been pronounced. That is because Imams are appointed by divine decree which is immutable.

Similarly, both Imam Aamir and his son, Imam al-Tayyib were simultaneously Imams although only one occupied the 'throne'.

As with Imams so with Dais. If, God forbid, Mufaddalbhai Saheb were to die before Sayedna Burhanuddin, he will still be considered the 53rd Dai and his son, who has already been divinely appointed, will be the 54th Dai. This is not officially stated of course but everything about Imams and Imamat now applies unchanged to Dais and Daawat, with innovations, I might add.

[porus]

Do we have any hadis from prophet(pbuh) to support this. To start with do you have any hadis in Bohra books about this, not worried about shia/sunni source at this point of time.

Imam al-Tayyib's existence is a fact based on historical research and not on hearsay. Like I said, I do not give much credence to hadith regarding Mahdi unless you can quote Quran to support them.

Yes, there is a hadith about 12 Imams predating the so called 'greater occultation' of the 12th Imam of the Shia. Shia have used it to prop up the doctrine of their 12 Imams. However there is no evidence that their previous 11 Imams were even aware of the hadith. Also, it is again not supported by the Quran unless you can quote the Quran in its defence.

[porus]

There is no evidence that the 11th Imam of the Shia ever had a son.

What type of evidence are you looking for.

Evidence similar to documented evidence of the announcement by Imam Aamir of the birth of Imam al-Tayyib and his designation as Imam. There is also documentary evidence of celebration in Cairo of the birth and also in Yemen when the letter from Imam Aamir reached Hurrat al-Malika announcing the birth of Imam al-Tayyib.

Do you have any evidence that the Shia Imams from Musa al-Kazim ever mentioned that their line Imams will end at number 12?

[By the way, according to hadith, Rasulullah has said that there will be no Prophet after him. This view is supported by the Quran by designating Rasulullah as "Khaatam al-Nabiyyin".]

Please take this debate to Islam Today forum. When you come up with the evidence I may have a comment.

[profastian]

So there were 2 Imams at the same time.
Imam Jafar and Imam Ismail and even posibly 3rd one Imam Muhammad?
Father, son and Grand son.

And in same vain there are now 2 Dais for Dawoodi Bohras.
Dai Maula Burnuddin and Dai Maulai Muffadal !
Is it so?
JAK

Yes, there were three Imams present on earth during the time of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq according to Bohras. The incumbent and the two on whom nass had been pronounced. That is because Imams are appointed by divine decree which is immutable.

Similarly, both Imam Aamir and his son, Imam al-Tayyib were simultaneously Imams although only one occupied the 'throne'.

As with Imams so with Dais. If, God forbid, Mufaddalbhai Saheb were to die before Sayedna Burhanuddin, he will still be considered the 53rd Dai and his son, who has already been divinely appointed, will be the 54th Dai.(Ofcourse not, just shows the half baked knowledge of this idiot) This is not officially stated of course but everything about Imams and Imamat now applies unchanged to Dais and Daawat, with innovations, I might add.

[Doctor]

As with Imams so with Dais. If, God forbid, Mufaddalbhai Saheb were to die before Sayedna Burhanuddin, he will still be considered the 53rd Dai and his son, who has already been divinely appointed, will be the 54th Dai.(Ofcourse not, just shows the half baked knowledge of this idiot) This is not officially stated of course but everything about Imams and Imamat now applies unchanged to Dais and Daawat, with innovations, I might add.

Profastian, your contention above is either your personal invention or incorrect dogma spoon-feeded by Kothar.

Proof: Molae va Syyedi Abdul Quadir Hakimuddin, Burhanpur was appointed next Dai Mutlaq (nuss made) but he unfortunately died in the life of the then existing Dai so, Syyedi Hakimuddin (r) name is not taken in the list of Dai Mutlaq. Likewise, if Muffaddal died in Burhanuddin sahab life his name will not be in the list of Dai's.

Imam are born Imam, Dai is among lower hierarchy office bearer and cannot be compared to Imam. Dai is NOT Imam and Dai do not replace the authority and power of Imam so, what ever is applied to Imam and Imamat is not necessary applied to Dai. As Burhanuddin sahab himself says that he is SLAVE of Imam, a slave cannot have status and authority like Imam.

[profastian]

As with Imams so with Dais. If, God forbid, Mufaddalbhai Saheb were to die before Sayedna Burhanuddin, he will still be considered the 53rd Dai and his son, who has already been divinely appointed, will be the 54th Dai.(Ofcourse not, just shows the half baked knowledge of this idiot) This is not officially stated of course but everything about Imams and Imamat now applies unchanged to Dais and Daawat, with innovations, I might add.

Profastian, your contention above is either your personal invention or incorrect dogma spoon-feeded by Kothar.

Proof: Molae va Syyedi Abdul Quadir Hakimuddin, Burhanpur was appointed next Dai Mutlaq (nuss made) but he unfortunately died in the life of the then existing Dai so, Syyedi Hakimuddin (r) name is not taken in the list of Dai Mutlaq. Likewise, if Muffaddal died in Burhanuddin sahab life his name will not be in the list of Dai's.
You either need to read posts before commenting or you need to take english lessons. I am saying exactly the same thing as you.

Imam are born Imam, Dai is among lower hierarchy office bearer and cannot be compared to Imam. Dai is NOT Imam and Dai do not replace the authority and power of Imam so, what ever is applied to Imam and Imamat is not necessary applied to Dai. As Burhanuddin sahab himself says that he is SLAVE of Imam, a slave cannot have status and authority like Imam.

[Muslim First]

fatima,

Why do you think that those who follow Sunni Islam are not the followers of Ahlul Bayt and what do you do differently after you became a follower of Ahlul Bayt as against what you did before?

I don't think ill of people from other sects. I just don't like the people who say things like: "Shi'a or kaffar"
Is that official policy of sunnis? Have you read Al Azar fatwa?
or "Imam Hussain (AS) was wrong when he rebelled"..
Once again it is a opinion and there were many Sahabas including Ibn Abbas who advised Imam Hussain not to go to Karbala
.It really isn't too different.
Is is it really? Take this discussion to Islam section.
I go to majlis and celebrate Shi'a holidays.
Celebrate or Commomerate?
I am most importantly, just a Muslim.
A Muslim is one who follows Qur'an and Sunnah without any Innovations (Bida)
(that is my opinion)

Sister Fatema, please read this
Some of this might apply to Shia sect you follow
http://gowister.com/islam-answer-1680.html
Wasalaam