who is raza na saheb now

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porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: who is raza na saheb now

#31

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:14 pm

We have seen time and again on this forum that seeking religious/historical justification for any Bohra practice does not get you anywhere. There are two reasons for this. One is that all history is interpreted and re-interpreted to serve the interests of the Royal Family, Secondly, even if a practice has no historical precedent, if the Royal Family innovates it, it is considered legitimately religious. You would look in vain for the concept of Raza, as practiced by Bohras, in the Quran. Raza is simply a demand for money to bless any or all private events, religious or otherwise, in which you want your friends and relatives to participate. You may well ask why anyone would want to let a corrupt priestly hierarchy to bless your private events.

The word raza is based on the roots Ra, Daad and Ya. (In this instance, Ya is without the dots and is called 'alif maksura'). I have looked up all the ayats in the Quran which has words with this root. They are mainly used in connection with detailing what human behavior would please Allah. Allah is not seeking anything from His worshipers, least of all money. He is simply showing you what pleases Him.

Abdes equate seeking Allah's pleasure with seeking Dai's pleasure. Not only have we heard that Imams are 'mazhar' of Allah, it is now evident that Dais are also considered 'mazhar' of Allah. This has no Quranic justification. It is a Haqaaiq literature hyperbole.

You have a problem. You have Dai-worshiping community, uninterested in religious history or theology. There is almost no intellectual inquiry into Bohra practices. You inquire into them at the risk of being excluded from participation and you will find almost no support for it.

I recently saw a documentary on Kumbh Mela. While there is a sound basis to Indian Philosophical tradition, what I saw was a mass of Hindu devotees more interested in kissing their Gurus' feet than seeking honest enlightenment. The movie reminded me of Bohras except that robot-like dress code and hirsuite male faces were absent.

accountability
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#32

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:41 pm

thankyou porus. i totally agree with you.

aqs
Posts: 848
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#33

Unread post by aqs » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:10 am

accountability wrote: it is a big hassle too, they would not give rada on phone, you have to go there, it cannot be online. becuase amil wants make money. though they use every bit of technology to track you and but not to facilitate.
Their is an online website where you can apply for general things. application goes online to your area aamil and once approved goes to Vazarat. No need for salaam.
http://www.hawaij.org/

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: who is raza na saheb now

#34

Unread post by porus » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:30 am

aqs wrote:
accountability wrote: it is a big hassle too, they would not give rada on phone, you have to go there, it cannot be online. becuase amil wants make money. though they use every bit of technology to track you and but not to facilitate.
Their is an online website where you can apply for general things. application goes online to your area aamil and once approved goes to Vazarat. No need for salaam.
http://www.hawaij.org/
In other words, you seek raza from bureaucrats. And why would Aamil approve it without salaam? And if the Aamil is the 'raza na saheb' why does he need to send it to Vazarat? The reason. You need to shell out money for every little thing.

A friend used this website and Aamil immediately demanded that he come and see him to discuss his application. He wanted salaam.

Last year another friend went for Hajj through Jamaat. He was shocked to find in Makkah and Madinah, he had to seek raza for several rituals for which people in charge demanded salaams, that is money. Next we will see Aamils demanding money so you can pray Imamat namaaz with him. :roll:

aqs
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#35

Unread post by aqs » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:06 am

Porus wrote:In other words, you seek raza from bureaucrats. And why would Aamil approve it without salaam? And if the Aamil is the 'raza na saheb' why does he need to send it to Vazarat? The reason. You need to shell out money for every little thing.

A friend used this website and Aamil immediately demanded that he come and see him to discuss his application. He wanted salaam.
I have applied and got a reply Dua che or raza che. My aamil didnt call me. I have seen it work for few of my friends and cousins in the same way.

It can depend on Aamil to aamil how they want to proceed. some want their cut and some want to speed up the process. Mine is famous for helping people going out of the way.
Porus wrote:Last year another friend went for Hajj through Jamaat. He was shocked to find in Makkah and Madinah, he had to seek raza for several rituals for which people in charge demanded salaams, that is money. Next we will see Aamils demanding money so you can pray Imamat namaaz with him. :roll:
Your friend could have used the tactic used by people coming from India pakistan. they bring envelopes prepared with 10 and 20 rs which generally are very low valued when compared to Riyal used in Saudi. Face of Mulla sahab sure must be seen when he opens the envelops and curses.

and for aamils demanding money for Imamat namaaz, its is already in practice where Najwa is negotiated for Ashara waez and laialtul qadr well in advance

think
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: who is raza na saheb now

#36

Unread post by think » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:32 am

raza leads to slavery and slavery means; do not think, just do it. There is no mention in the quran as to how a muslim should behave if he or she is in slavery. Allah does nt want muslims to be slaves. If at all it is better to fight for your freedom and die ,than be a slave. The abdes and the goons of dawat should desist from this money making raza business .

ghulam muhammed
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#37

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:55 pm

During the 51st dai's era, a wealthy bohra came to him with a shade card seeking raza for the colour to be painted in his house, after the dai chose the colour, the abde asked him "Mola oil paint karu ke distemper" ? Hearing this, even the dai burst into laughter.

ozmujaheed
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#38

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:02 am

Is raza permission or advise ?

For both there is need to understand the baCkground facts and while decision is to ensure autoritative compliance

Eg one cannot ask for raza to marry a fifth wife, or start a casino!

And raza cancan be petty for a peasant where he does know whether to go for medical attention or seek a village doctors herb therapy.

Are abdes asking raza to help decide or are they seeking permission because they have doubt in anything they hope to do!

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: who is raza na saheb now

#39

Unread post by porus » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:24 am

ozmujaheed wrote:Is raza permission or advise ?
It is neither. It started out as a desire for approval for intention but has metamorphosed into mandatory requirement for 'permission' for a price, the salaam. A priest may feel like offering advise against the intention or suggest an alternative which is expected to be obeyed.

It is a cult-like control and micro-management of the life 'devotees' to which they willingly surrender. Needless to say, such behavior finds no sanction in the Quran.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#40

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:10 pm

View the photograph No.1 and see how tired and exhausted the dai is, yet the zaadas refuse to let him rest but parade him upto London just for more and more moolah !!!!

http://www.zeninfosys.net/zi6/akhbar/hu ... ndon/17345

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: who is raza na saheb now

#41

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:51 pm

these pictures show the gross indifference to the plight of syedna saheb. Look at Moiz bhai saheb, he and other bhaisahebs of course are standing as if for picnicing, which is actually picnic for them, and in other photo syedna's grand sons are posing for portrait like pose. They do not care for their grand father, and or for their ultimate benefactor.
it is pathetic situation, very sad state of affair. I wish a bit of humanity is left in them, and they could see something beyond arrogant knighthood. But I doubt it. They are not taught this way. Arrogance is bred in them. I wish that Syedi Muffadal Bhai saheb take notice of this.
You are right about the first picture, it tells thousands words. Very sad. but they are happy on a chartered flight picnic............................. .

ghulam muhammed
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#42

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:45 pm

Just to refresh the memories of senior members and for the benefit of new members, herein below is a post which appeared on this forum on the subject issue :-

In the last 80 years Misaq and Raza are so much emphasized that they have become a part of our psychic. Hardly any one has any interest and time to look back into the history and find out the truth.


It would be sufficient to quote just one incident reported in the Chandabhoy Galla Case to understand this myth. Due to aggravated financial trouble in 1891 the 49th Dai, Syedna Burhanuddin had to borrow money on interest from two Hindu mahajans and one of his own Amil. Shaikh Abdul Tayeb. On non-payment of their dues they filed suits in the law court at Surat. The Amil actually tried to put Sayedna Burhanuddin into prison for non-payment of Rs.53680 with interest. The case (suit no.285 of 1892) was settled as the Sayedna agreed to pay Rs. 54000/- with interest in 12 installments from his personal income.


After this humiliating incident on request of then Sayedna, Sir Adamji Peerbhoy Rafiuddin drew up a Dastur-al-amal (a constitution) to restrict excessive power enjoyed by local Amils and local functionaries. The local collection then was retained entirely by local Amil and Jamaat. Through this Dasturul-amal it was made obligatory for each Amil to remit part of his collection to the center. This was the beginning of monopolization of all powers in the hands of Dai thus throttling the freedom of followers.


This is to be noted that when Amil Sheikh Abdul Tayeb filed a suit against 49th Sayedna and tried to put him behind bars, even in such crises no issue of Raza, Misaq or Baraat was raised. Even after his strong action against Dai not only that the Amil was not excommunicated but also his wazifa (monthly allowance from Dawat) was not stopped by the then Sayedna. Nor he was asked to take Misaq again.


It is abundantly clear from this incident that till 49th Dai there was no concept of Misaq or Raza or Baraat. Till then not only an ordinary Bohra but even those who were part of Sayedna's establishment, enjoyed the freedom of challenging the Dai without fearing any threat of excommunication or breaking the Misaq.


The document of Misaq produced as Ex. 17 in Chandabhoy Galla Case (2A BLR 1060) by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin in 1920 was dated 124B Hijri (1833 AD). Even in this document, which was around 100 years-old Misaq was only for Imam and Sayedna Taher Saifuddin had to confess before justice Martin that inclusion of ˜Dai" along with ˜Imam" in Misaq Nama was his own creation.


There is no text of Misaq in any book of Dawat. Sayedna Hatim's book Tohfatul Qulub very briefly mentions about Misaq with a warning that it does not behave a Dai to ascribe a single word of Misaq towards himself.

Our 51st Dai, late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb has accepted on oath in Bombay High Court in Chandabhoy Galla case that "Yes I do transaction of money on interest I mean I do take and give interest."


This is till his time most of the dais and Amils and even mumineen used to take and give interest and they had found nothing wrong in doing so. Even till 1978 many projects started by him like Leader Press, Bombay Paints, Asian Electronics, Asian Dehydrates etc. showing interest on money he had taken for them in their balance sheets.Bank interest became haram when Kothar tried to sieze control over Bombay Mercantile Bank and failed. Till then all the directors of this bank were Dawoodi Bohras, Mohammad Ali Allah Bax, Zain Rangoon wala, Mohsin Doctor, Zulfiqar Husain and many more.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: who is raza na saheb now

#43

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:21 pm

Excerpts from an old post :-

According to the condition of Misaq "And you shall accept the orders of the Dai in all things. And you shall not do a thing which the Dai shall forbid you". In order to implement this condition of Misaq "Raza", for all religious and social matters and customs, was introduced and made compulsory.

Nikah in Islam is a civil contract between would-be-bride and would-be-bride groom. Burial of dead is a civil activity and graveyards are civil properties. Establishing school, colleges, hospital, libraries, banks, musfarkhanas, kabrastans etc are all social welfare activities. Religion has nothing to do with them. But because of the condition of 'Raza' a Dawoodi Bohra is refused the use of community's properties such as school, colleges, hospitals, libraries, banks, musfarkhana, kabrastans etc. That is why when Syedna Saheb demolished the Sanatorium built by the reformists and built 'Saifee Hospital" on its land, the Supreme Court of India needed to define 'Dawoodi Bohras' who would use the hospital. The judgment delivered on 3rd February 2000 in the Case No. 826 by it has specified that:

"30 (Thirty) beds in the proposed Saifee Hospital shall be reserved for treatment of members of the Dawoodi Bohra Community free of charge. Such beds and treatment to be provided to economically needy Dawoodi Bohras, regardless of whether they have taken the Misaq or not and regardless of whether they are ex-communicated or not.

It is to be noted that the Syedna Saheb's Shahzadas, solicitors and advocates present in the Court, quietly accepted this definition of Dawoodi Bohras and condition imposed by the Hon. Supreme Court of India without raising any objection.