As the participants of this forum are aware, reformist(mostly) did not separate from the mainstream DBs over succession conflict. There hasn’t been any major succession dispute in the DBs with any conflicting claims over Dai-ship for a few hundred years now.
However, this uniqueness of the reformist movement was hardly anything of benefit to the people associated with this club when it came to religious/communal guardianship. It would pose serious challenges in the future that the reformist leaders had not envisaged then. Now, 4 decades after the reformist movement was launched, the generations born into the reformist families are on the verge of experiencing the bitter legacy left behind by their predecessors.
So, what exactly is the legacy that the present and future generations have to cope with? Let us list them down in bullet-point format;
1. Since the reformist movement was political in nature, in the absence of religious scholars trained in the highest levels of Fatimi doctrines and absence of adherence to a central figure (temporal or spiritual), the reformist failed to inherit a organized knowledge system in religious and cultural sciences.
2. In the name of religious scholars and clergy, all that the reformist community could muster was a handful of old, self-centered, self-proclaimed clerics who had their own personal agenda and vested interest in joining the reform movement. These characteristics of theirs failed to attract any major respect or allegiance in the reformist population toward them and they only served to be symbolic figure-heads for religious matters.
3. Since these clerics themselves were not popular enough they had little buying for their opinion and ideas. In the absence of an organized knowledge system, these old clerics could only manage to produce some half-baked successors who would go on to become the religious guides of a now misdirected movement with dwindling number of followers.
4. Without any fresh inflow of highly trained individuals, well-educated in the various aspects of Fatimi doctrines in areas of Sharia, Fiqh, Aqaid, Taweel and Haqaiq, the dependence of the reformist populace on the current clerics for their day-to-day matters is questionable per se.
5. These clerics have been pushing their own views and agenda, influenced by their own free thoughts, and no monitoring of the knowledge dispensed to ordinary reformist followers.
6. Without allegiance to or monitoring by any central hierarchy, these clerics are seeding the unsuspecting reformist population with their own home-bred ideas and religious thoughts, occasionally upholding the Daaimul-Islam and other Fatimi literature to show their following the DB beliefs, but slowly and steadily pushing their baseless doctrines on Nass issues into the minds of the new generation as espoused by their mentor who they trained under.
7. Once these reformist clerics of today, have also passed away, the learning, education and authenticity of the new ones assuming their roles, and their adherence to core DB beliefs and their effectiveness in holding together the religious beliefs and cultural identity of the reformist population should be a matter of concern for the reformists today itself.
Hence, the question that arises today and which the reformist elders should immediately start addressing is the consequences of the religious misguidance dispensed to them today by their so-called clerics and the consequences of the lack of authentic DB religious and cultural guidance to their present and coming generation.
Reformists should debate amongst themselves the following three questions:
Who Trains whom? - Is the cleric responsible for training the to-be-clerics sufficiently educated, honest and efficient in training the to-be-clerics? How can someone who does not know Arabic himself teach Arabic literature and hand out Quranic lessons to others? Also, are the to-be-clerics sufficiently screened to undertake the responsibility to dispense religious issues to be handled by them? Do these to-be-clerics possess required acumen and intellect for their role? How do you ascertain the quality and ability of the to-be-clerics? What is the curriculum required to be completed by them to perform the religious duties with correctness? Who would certify the successful training and qualification of these to-be-clerics? Are reformist teachers qualified enough to train the to-be-clerics in the first place?
Who preaches what? – Is there a system put in place by the reformist to know what is the religious inclination of these clerics? What are their personal beliefs and what they are preaching the population in the various reformist controlled mosques, schools and jamaats? Is there a central doctrine which these clerics have to follow or are they masters of themselves free to dispense any thought of their liking and interest? What is the literature that these clerics are drawing their information from other than Fatimi DB literature? How is the knowledge dispensation regulated and uniformed in the various jamaats? How do you control or stop the preaching of anti-Fatimi DB beliefs or propogation of anti-Dai views related to current or previous Dai?
Who monitors? - Is there a monitoring system to know that nothing outside or against the statutes of Fatimi beliefs is fed into the reformist population? What checks and balances are being put in place to ensure that the reformist Mosques and schools do not start breeding wahabi/Salafi/Sunni/Isna Ashari/Alavi/46er believers? What pre-control mechanisms and damage-control mechanisms are put in place in the event something of this sort takes place? Who has been assigned the authority to stop/censure/reprimand any such person from feeding anti-DB beliefs and thoughts into the minds of reformist? What happens if the person assigned the authority to oversee this responsibility gets influenced by anti-DB beliefs and fails to perform the duty? What monitoring mechanisms have the reformists arranged to ensure that misguidance and misdirection of the current and coming generation is avoided and a close religious and cultural blend with the mainstream DB community is maintained?
I am hoping for a decent and sober discussion from all the participants. To those who follow beliefs other than DB belief, or have nothing intelligent to contribute, or simply not concerned with the above subject, please excuse this thread.
Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
-
progticide
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Progticide, a very thoughtful and insightful post. It merits an equally reasoned response but I do not have that kind of time now, let's leave that for later. But for now it is suffice to say that in your enthusiasm to highlight the "misguidance" of reformists you glossed over the glaring and blatant liberties the Dawat has taken with Fatimid fiqh, aquida and haqaiq. Those liberties and violations have been exposed and discussed on this forum many times over. So maybe you may want give those a serious thought.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
These concerns are also faced by the kothar. The bhaisahebs in various jamaats follow their own selfish agenda. Who trains whom is a big question mark even for the kothar and the very proof of it is this web site. the one who preaches does not practice.
If the kothar had a well organized system of dawaat with a transparent policy in money matters none of this would have happened. To day there are more poor bohras than 20 years back but the kothar is richer. This anamoly is in itself proof of this religion is nothing more than a money grabbing business. Just like many a hindu priests whose part time business is to conduct nikah etc and there is a price list of whatever ritual you want to get done.
If the kothar had a well organized system of dawaat with a transparent policy in money matters none of this would have happened. To day there are more poor bohras than 20 years back but the kothar is richer. This anamoly is in itself proof of this religion is nothing more than a money grabbing business. Just like many a hindu priests whose part time business is to conduct nikah etc and there is a price list of whatever ritual you want to get done.
-
progticide
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Humsafar,
Out of genuine sincerity, I pointed out to you that "Your boat has a hole and its taking-in water".
But in your sheer hatred toward the DBs, all you could do is smilingly shout back "Your boat has a hole too".
In some previous posts of mine I have used the term "irrational behaviour" of the reformists. Your response above is a good example of this Irrational Behaviour. Instead of acknowledging the problem highlighted by me above, debating (maybe in private with your other reformist colleagues) on how to address this issue that is staring in your face and by taking cognizance of the matter even if brought to your notice by an enemy, you are only trying to score a point by enumerating the problem on the DB side. Does highlighting issues or actions of the DBs absolve the reformists of their own drawbacks and lacunae and forthcoming problems?
I had spent time and effort in studying the problem mentioned above and after a very thoughtful consideration compiled a subject matter taking care to bring to light factual issues and avoid fictional or wishful content.
Can anyone on the reformist side refute the points raised above?
Does anyone from the reformist side have definitive and convincing answers to the questions raised above?
Has any reformist leader ever given a deep thought to this subject raised in this topic and taken corrective measures?
Do the reformists discuss and debate this subject in detail and exhaustive manner at any of their gatherings?
Out of genuine sincerity, I pointed out to you that "Your boat has a hole and its taking-in water".
But in your sheer hatred toward the DBs, all you could do is smilingly shout back "Your boat has a hole too".
In some previous posts of mine I have used the term "irrational behaviour" of the reformists. Your response above is a good example of this Irrational Behaviour. Instead of acknowledging the problem highlighted by me above, debating (maybe in private with your other reformist colleagues) on how to address this issue that is staring in your face and by taking cognizance of the matter even if brought to your notice by an enemy, you are only trying to score a point by enumerating the problem on the DB side. Does highlighting issues or actions of the DBs absolve the reformists of their own drawbacks and lacunae and forthcoming problems?
I had spent time and effort in studying the problem mentioned above and after a very thoughtful consideration compiled a subject matter taking care to bring to light factual issues and avoid fictional or wishful content.
Can anyone on the reformist side refute the points raised above?
Does anyone from the reformist side have definitive and convincing answers to the questions raised above?
Has any reformist leader ever given a deep thought to this subject raised in this topic and taken corrective measures?
Do the reformists discuss and debate this subject in detail and exhaustive manner at any of their gatherings?
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Mola has travelled in Queen Elizabet 2.
The most luxurious yatch in the world.progressives have only scooters. We should now have one permanent luxury ship for mola alone.You will see one day mola will be gifted a luxury ship.Ameen.
The most luxurious yatch in the world.progressives have only scooters. We should now have one permanent luxury ship for mola alone.You will see one day mola will be gifted a luxury ship.Ameen.
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
If god gives me means will definately gift a jet .............ships r too slow ..........................................mnoorani wrote:Mola has travelled in Queen Elizabet 2.
The most luxurious yatch in the world.progressives have only scooters. We should now have one permanent luxury ship for mola alone.You will see one day mola will be gifted a luxury ship.Ameen.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Amzaing Noorani and Guy Sam
No one talks that if Allah gives them that much money they will make sure that they will make sure that not a single Mumin and Muslim
will be hungry and live in respectable environment with proper education to their children
WHAT A SCREWED UP PRIORITIES?
No one talks that if Allah gives them that much money they will make sure that they will make sure that not a single Mumin and Muslim
will be hungry and live in respectable environment with proper education to their children
WHAT A SCREWED UP PRIORITIES?
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
SBM.
Be happy with your priorities.We have only one priority and that is to give our jaan and maal to mola.People suffer for their sins only.If we have a gold lota of mola on one side and a hungry mumin on the other ,then we should put money in the gold lota.This is because our priority is to give our jaan and maal to mola.Others can go to hell.
As you know before ,the dawat was poor,But now we have the dai who is perhaps the richest man in India.His children have american or british passports and even in London,mumin gifted him RollsRoyce.Mumins in India feel it very proud that their dai has been gifted several luxury cars.There will be poor people as these people are lazy.Look at our shahzaadas,see their clothes.They wear the best.
Be happy with your priorities.We have only one priority and that is to give our jaan and maal to mola.People suffer for their sins only.If we have a gold lota of mola on one side and a hungry mumin on the other ,then we should put money in the gold lota.This is because our priority is to give our jaan and maal to mola.Others can go to hell.
As you know before ,the dawat was poor,But now we have the dai who is perhaps the richest man in India.His children have american or british passports and even in London,mumin gifted him RollsRoyce.Mumins in India feel it very proud that their dai has been gifted several luxury cars.There will be poor people as these people are lazy.Look at our shahzaadas,see their clothes.They wear the best.
-
progticide
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
MNoorani,mnoorani wrote:Mola has travelled in Queen Elizabet 2.
The most luxurious yatch in the world.progressives have only scooters. We should now have one permanent luxury ship for mola alone.You will see one day mola will be gifted a luxury ship.Ameen.
Totally agree with you on this point. Afterall everything that we possess today is because of the blessings of our Maula (TUS). Your intention is truly commendable.
Also kindly share your thoughts on the religious education system present in DBs and the fatimi ilm imparted to DBs through the Raza Mubarak of Maula (TUS).
What do you think about the state of religious education system of the reformists? Any thoughts or inside information that you can share here should be of interest to all participants, hopefully.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
You are my best friend and thank you for support.
Religion is knowledge and there is only one knowledge .We should learn only that one knowledge.The rest is bullshit. The only knowlegde is MOLA.The rest is useless.
Mola is bolta quraan.
Religion is knowledge and there is only one knowledge .We should learn only that one knowledge.The rest is bullshit. The only knowlegde is MOLA.The rest is useless.
Mola is bolta quraan.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Bohras always credit their Bhagwaan for their possessions, while Muslims give credit and thanks to AllahSWT.Totally agree with you on this point. Afterall everything that we possess today is because of the blessings of our Maula (TUS). Your intention is truly commendable.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
our mola gives us credit.We have qarde hasana scheme.
-
progticide
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
MF,Muslim First wrote:Bohras always credit their Bhagwaan for their possessions, while Muslims give credit and thanks to AllahSWT.Totally agree with you on this point. Afterall everything that we possess today is because of the blessings of our Maula (TUS). Your intention is truly commendable.
It would be now interesting to know from you how you "Give" something to Allah. Doesn't everything already belong to Allah alone; "Innal hamda wal naimata laka al mulk, la sharika laka". I don't need to translate that for you, do I ?
So, now MF has risen to a level where he can GIVE something to Allah?
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
See how Muslim First has brought down God to the level of Man.
Man can never give anything to God.This is why God has sent us MOLA, so that our wealth can be given to him and with that money he has built Saifee Hospital.
Man can never give anything to God.This is why God has sent us MOLA, so that our wealth can be given to him and with that money he has built Saifee Hospital.
-
guy_sam2005
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
I said if god gave me means..i didnt define how much would be means enough for me or wat r my priorities......cant help ur assumptions,n till mnoorani is concerned he is 1 of yours only ...........so wat he says will be considered prog pov only..................SBM wrote:Amzaing Noorani and Guy Sam
No one talks that if Allah gives them that much money they will make sure that they will make sure that not a single Mumin and Muslim
will be hungry and live in respectable environment with proper education to their children
WHAT A SCREWED UP PRIORITIES?
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
ALERT ALERT ALERTmnoorani wrote:Mola has travelled in Queen Elizabet 2.
The most luxurious yatch in the world.progressives have only scooters. We should now have one permanent luxury ship for mola alone.You will see one day mola will be gifted a luxury ship.Ameen.
TOPIC DIVERSION TOPIC DIVERSION
-
humanbeing
- Posts: 2195
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Does Allah has any contribution to your possessions ?? (You don’t need to answer this, as I m not asking)progticide wrote:Totally agree with you on this point. Afterall everything that we possess today is because of the blessings of our Maula (TUS). Your intention is truly commendable.
I don’t intend to hurt your ego or finger your bad temper. So please don’t start dancing in disgust and unleash your venomous thoughts all over.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Allahs biggest conyribution to us is our MOLA.
THis is how we define ourselves.We have unquestionable obedeince towards mola.He can colllect moneu at the pointing of a finger and can be decked in Gold if he wants to .This is the contribution of small comunity.Allah gave us Mola and through the barakat,the community can afford to pay for the luxurious life of his entire family.
THis is how we define ourselves.We have unquestionable obedeince towards mola.He can colllect moneu at the pointing of a finger and can be decked in Gold if he wants to .This is the contribution of small comunity.Allah gave us Mola and through the barakat,the community can afford to pay for the luxurious life of his entire family.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
When Allah gave us the prophet (saw), he gave us Islam. When Allah gave us Hussain, he gave us his life. When Allah gave us Mola, we have to give him salaam. Brilliant!!!
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Anajmi,
Why do you not understand My Mola is Sultan al Bohra.He does not rule over a country He is a Sultan without territory.A Sultan and his family has to live a luxurious and royal lifestyle.As he has no territory,he has no income from the lands he rules as tehre is no land.So the only way for him and his 1000 plus dependants is to impose taxes like a ruler.In the form of wajebaats,salaam etc.
Why do you not understand My Mola is Sultan al Bohra.He does not rule over a country He is a Sultan without territory.A Sultan and his family has to live a luxurious and royal lifestyle.As he has no territory,he has no income from the lands he rules as tehre is no land.So the only way for him and his 1000 plus dependants is to impose taxes like a ruler.In the form of wajebaats,salaam etc.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Your Mola is not the sultan of anything. He is the biggest fakir in the bohra community. Every bohra has to pay for the upkeep of this fakir and his family. He is incapable of doing anything on his own. He cannot even walk on his own. He isn't a sultan. He is a burden. There is a reason why Allah gave him only a few abde idiots as followers and not any territory for him to rule!! He and his followers are a lesson for the rest of us. We need to see the condition of the idol and the idol worshippers and how not to end up as either.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Progticide,
By trying to expose the shortcomings of reformists you've unwittingly revealed how Dawat Inc. operates. The very title "Who trains, Who Preaches What and Who monitors" sums up the characteristics of a cult. Every cult operates on secrecy and control. For the cult to thrive the system of knowledge must remain closely guarded, carefully disseminated by qualified teachers and strictly monitored so that the sheep must bleat from the same song sheet. Not a discordant note, never a wayward tune otherwise the carefully orchestrated symphony of lies and exploitation will come crashing down.
In contrast, we reformists are the antithesis of a cult. We make books and knowledge freely available. We are shaking the foundation on which your cult is built. On a second reading, it seems obvious to me that you are not actually concerned about our "misguidance" but more about how we reformists are opening up the fetters and airing Fatimid knowledge that the Burhani cult wants to keep under wraps. The source books we have access to are the same as that the Kothar has. Sheikh Ahemd Ali was the teacher of the 52nd Dai, so his knowledge and interpretation of Fatimid fiqh, aqaid and haqaiq cannot be faulted. Regarding the nass of the 47th Dai, it is a separate issues, and Sheikh Ahmed Ali's view on that must be taken with a pinch of salt as he raised it in his post-jamea phase. So please rest assured, our Fatimid knowledge and interpretation come from authentic books and sources and teacher - however they are free of the innovations and creative frills that have been introduced during the reign of 51st and 52nd Dais.
For us true Dawoodi Bohras (read reformists/progressive) there is no need to keep a close watch on our core beliefs or what people are doing with them. Our official stand remains true to Dawood Bohra faith. Individual reformists may think, believe and write whatever they want, it would be wrong on your part to base your thesis and conclusions on the basis of these few individuals.
As I mentioned in my previous post, it is your Burhani cult that is guilty of distortion, corruption and wholesale re-invention of Dawoodi Bohra faith. As an involved member of the cult you're no allowed to think that that is the case, and no amount of reasoning and evidence (amply discussed and presented on this Forum) will ever shake you from your cultist moorings. So I won't even try.
By trying to expose the shortcomings of reformists you've unwittingly revealed how Dawat Inc. operates. The very title "Who trains, Who Preaches What and Who monitors" sums up the characteristics of a cult. Every cult operates on secrecy and control. For the cult to thrive the system of knowledge must remain closely guarded, carefully disseminated by qualified teachers and strictly monitored so that the sheep must bleat from the same song sheet. Not a discordant note, never a wayward tune otherwise the carefully orchestrated symphony of lies and exploitation will come crashing down.
In contrast, we reformists are the antithesis of a cult. We make books and knowledge freely available. We are shaking the foundation on which your cult is built. On a second reading, it seems obvious to me that you are not actually concerned about our "misguidance" but more about how we reformists are opening up the fetters and airing Fatimid knowledge that the Burhani cult wants to keep under wraps. The source books we have access to are the same as that the Kothar has. Sheikh Ahemd Ali was the teacher of the 52nd Dai, so his knowledge and interpretation of Fatimid fiqh, aqaid and haqaiq cannot be faulted. Regarding the nass of the 47th Dai, it is a separate issues, and Sheikh Ahmed Ali's view on that must be taken with a pinch of salt as he raised it in his post-jamea phase. So please rest assured, our Fatimid knowledge and interpretation come from authentic books and sources and teacher - however they are free of the innovations and creative frills that have been introduced during the reign of 51st and 52nd Dais.
For us true Dawoodi Bohras (read reformists/progressive) there is no need to keep a close watch on our core beliefs or what people are doing with them. Our official stand remains true to Dawood Bohra faith. Individual reformists may think, believe and write whatever they want, it would be wrong on your part to base your thesis and conclusions on the basis of these few individuals.
As I mentioned in my previous post, it is your Burhani cult that is guilty of distortion, corruption and wholesale re-invention of Dawoodi Bohra faith. As an involved member of the cult you're no allowed to think that that is the case, and no amount of reasoning and evidence (amply discussed and presented on this Forum) will ever shake you from your cultist moorings. So I won't even try.
Can anyone on the abde side refute the religious and financial corruption of Dawat Inc,?Can anyone on the reformist side refute the points raised above?
Does anyone on the abde side has the definitive and convincing answers (justification) for the religious and financial corruption of Dawat Inc.?Does anyone from the reformist side have definitive and convincing answers to the questions raised above?
Has any abde leader (oops abdes are not leaders but just pleaders) - has any abde given a deep thought to how the vile and corrupt priesthood has systematically ruined our faith and is robbing our community blind?Has any reformist leader ever given a deep thought to this subject raised in this topic and taken corrective measures?
Do abdes discuss and debate about these matters in any of their gatherings? (Sorry, those things must sound strange to you.) Are they even allowed to even think, forget discuss?Do the reformists discuss and debate this subject in detail and exhaustive manner at any of their gatherings?
-
Hussain_KSA
- Posts: 874
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Pocticide,
The Reform movement is not political but a social one. We dont want any position or power sharing but transperency and accountibality. I agree with most of the points you have written. However, as we believe the knowledge of religion will not disappear from the earth till the day of Qayamat. Many people who possess the knowldge and books (who are not members of this forum) has decided to organize the ilm and it would be recorded at one place or a library will be created so that coming generations will not stray anymore.
Its ture that we lacks infrastructures in some places and proper guidance, but inshallah time will heal our wounds. Administration has adopted dual policy on the matter of reconcilation. In Udaipur it is quite libral where reformist are in good numbers. They have given liberty to attend fucntions of each other, talk or visit to each others. If some one want to come back he would just go and give meethaq, thats all. In other places where reformist are not in majority, strict barat is imposed. Even some one want to join back the mainstream he face humiliation and hard time.
The Reform movement is not political but a social one. We dont want any position or power sharing but transperency and accountibality. I agree with most of the points you have written. However, as we believe the knowledge of religion will not disappear from the earth till the day of Qayamat. Many people who possess the knowldge and books (who are not members of this forum) has decided to organize the ilm and it would be recorded at one place or a library will be created so that coming generations will not stray anymore.
Its ture that we lacks infrastructures in some places and proper guidance, but inshallah time will heal our wounds. Administration has adopted dual policy on the matter of reconcilation. In Udaipur it is quite libral where reformist are in good numbers. They have given liberty to attend fucntions of each other, talk or visit to each others. If some one want to come back he would just go and give meethaq, thats all. In other places where reformist are not in majority, strict barat is imposed. Even some one want to join back the mainstream he face humiliation and hard time.
-
progticide
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Hussain,
Finally a thoughtfully structured and objective reply from the reformists. Appreciate your response.
However, unfortunately, your response raises more questions than it answers. Let me explain:
1. You mentioned that some reformist intellectuals are organising the knowledge and literature and all that will be stationed in a forthcoming library for future generations. If this was a solution my friend, than there would be no need for any schools, colleges, universities in the world. There would have been no need for government to come up with Right to Education Act. There would be no need for institutes to train teachers and professors and lecturers. Every city, town and village in the world would only host libraries where people would go and self-study the books as per their intellect. This would have been so wonderful and enjoyable and enduring for everyone. However, we know this is not feasible. Old Indian adage "Guru bina gyan nahi". So please think again, whether what you and your refromist elders are proposing is a solution or an open invitation to bigger problems where you would have anyone and everyone accessing and studying anything without any teaching or monitoring.
2. When you say that knowledge would be condensed and stationed into a library, do you think that knowledge is static and only the knowledge which has been dispensed or published till date by Fatimi scholars and so far available in the books and literature is the only Fatimi knowledge available. I have not come across any fatimi literature/book that says that it contains the complete and entire exegesis of Surah Fateha, leave alone other 113 suras of the Holy Quran. So what makes you say that you can accumulate the knowledge necessary for the affairs and well-being of the reformist community till the Day of Qiyamat into a single library?
3. I personally know of families who have reverted to the DB mainstream after spending years with the reformist side. And none, I repeat, NONE who have come back in the DB fold have had their self-respect or honour tarnished. I ask you. Out of the thousands of reformist who have reverted to DB mainstream and given Misaaq over the years , how many can you count have left the DB fold again and joined back the reform movement because of dishonour or humiliation at the hands of DBs or administration?
Unfortunately, time is not going to heal your wounds but rather turn the wound into cancer if timely action is not taken and thoughtful consideration is not given. You and other reformists are trying to self-medicate a wound that has become severe and worsening by the day, but refuse to accept the remedy that would cure not only the body but also the soul.
Finally a thoughtfully structured and objective reply from the reformists. Appreciate your response.
However, unfortunately, your response raises more questions than it answers. Let me explain:
1. You mentioned that some reformist intellectuals are organising the knowledge and literature and all that will be stationed in a forthcoming library for future generations. If this was a solution my friend, than there would be no need for any schools, colleges, universities in the world. There would have been no need for government to come up with Right to Education Act. There would be no need for institutes to train teachers and professors and lecturers. Every city, town and village in the world would only host libraries where people would go and self-study the books as per their intellect. This would have been so wonderful and enjoyable and enduring for everyone. However, we know this is not feasible. Old Indian adage "Guru bina gyan nahi". So please think again, whether what you and your refromist elders are proposing is a solution or an open invitation to bigger problems where you would have anyone and everyone accessing and studying anything without any teaching or monitoring.
2. When you say that knowledge would be condensed and stationed into a library, do you think that knowledge is static and only the knowledge which has been dispensed or published till date by Fatimi scholars and so far available in the books and literature is the only Fatimi knowledge available. I have not come across any fatimi literature/book that says that it contains the complete and entire exegesis of Surah Fateha, leave alone other 113 suras of the Holy Quran. So what makes you say that you can accumulate the knowledge necessary for the affairs and well-being of the reformist community till the Day of Qiyamat into a single library?
3. I personally know of families who have reverted to the DB mainstream after spending years with the reformist side. And none, I repeat, NONE who have come back in the DB fold have had their self-respect or honour tarnished. I ask you. Out of the thousands of reformist who have reverted to DB mainstream and given Misaaq over the years , how many can you count have left the DB fold again and joined back the reform movement because of dishonour or humiliation at the hands of DBs or administration?
Unfortunately, time is not going to heal your wounds but rather turn the wound into cancer if timely action is not taken and thoughtful consideration is not given. You and other reformists are trying to self-medicate a wound that has become severe and worsening by the day, but refuse to accept the remedy that would cure not only the body but also the soul.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Hussain_KSA wrote:
In Udaipur it is quite libral where reformist are in good numbers. They have given liberty to attend fucntions of each other, talk or visit to each others. If some one want to come back he would just go and give meethaq, thats all. In other places where reformist are not in majority, strict barat is imposed. Even some one want to join back the mainstream he face humiliation and hard time.
No Mr.Hussain you are not right these days its getting worse day by day even we are allowed to go to Abdes place but Abdes are not allowed to come in our Jamaat Khana and other functions in our Mosques......even though they are not coming also.
And the rasam of going and coming is just so fake as a Film............. All are behaving like reel life but the real face is as bitter as Bitter Melon.
Its need to be sort out on higher level......
And do you think some one will go to library to see there history and Islam these days children don't get time to sit with there own parents and talk with them for 1 hour.
State some practical thoughts which is workable in any situation............ As we really need it.
As What will happen to us and where we are going?
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
You do not understand .There has to be divides in Bohra religion and culture. This is very evident. In other masjids anyone who comes first has the right to front saff.But In Bohra ,only the people who can pay big money are allowed in the front saff.They have paid huge money to aqa Mola to get title of shaikh ,so aqa mola gives them more sawaab.The poor are poor because of their sins and mola has to punish them by keeping them in the last lines. The daughters of the Mola and his family can only marry within the family.The rest are rayat.Their noor will actually destroy us ,so Mola out of compassion has made this rule.
We are made only to bend infront of young shahzaadas.Even a teenaged shaazaada has the right to sit on the throne an dmake old shailks bend with folded hands.The shaazaadas are special people,They are more important than Mazun or mukasir.So division has to be there.
We are made only to bend infront of young shahzaadas.Even a teenaged shaazaada has the right to sit on the throne an dmake old shailks bend with folded hands.The shaazaadas are special people,They are more important than Mazun or mukasir.So division has to be there.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
Just like Warrior 72, mnoorani may be a mole from Kothari side to divert the attention about "POVERTY IN AHMEDABAD" exposed by Bohraji. That scheme was working very well and many well wishers from both side of spectrum had been participating with their heart and soul and their only purpose was to help people in need regardless of their allegiance. This became a sour point for Kothar because on this forum it was shown how Kothari Goons are enjoying Ziyaafaats while poor die hard ortho mumins had difficult time right under another Dai's dargah. They planted Dawoodi52, Rabeha Solar to discredit but miserable failed as we exposed that Rabeha is a lier.
Re: Who Trains Whom? Who Preaches What? Who Monitors?
SBM wrote:Just like Warrior 72, mnoorani may be a mole from Kothari side to divert the attention about "POVERTY IN AHMEDABAD" exposed by Bohraji. That scheme was working very well and many well wishers from both side of spectrum had been participating with their heart and soul and their only purpose was to help people in need regardless of their allegiance. This became a sour point for Kothar because on this forum it was shown how Kothari Goons are enjoying Ziyaafaats while poor die hard ortho mumins had difficult time right under another Dai's dargah. They planted Dawoodi52, Rabeha Solar to discredit but miserable failed as we exposed that Rabeha is a lier.
Still there are so many post left where you can copy paste this thread.....go ahead all the very best to your new cause
FAO: Progticide
Progticide,
(1) Academically / Educationally Qualified - "Doctor":
> Bohra Shabab leader Mulla Ji Burhanuddin sahab did NOT went to school/colleges to EARN the title of "Doctor" but was only GIFTED by virtue of him being NAAZIM of OUR Bohra community.
> Bohra Youth leader Proff. Mehdi Hasan EARNED the title of "Doctor" by pursuing education.
>> Hence, Bohra Youth leader is more educated and indeed true scholar than Bohra Shabab leader.
(2) Teachers background comparisons:
• Teachers of Bohra Youth for seniors: Mulla Mohammed Ji Abdul Ali Bambora Wala (Head Master Sahab), Mulla Qurban Hussain Raj, Sheikh Yaqoob Ali Raj, Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj, Sheikh Hasan Ali Sarangpur Wala, Mulla Ismail Ji Hibtullah Ji Attarwala, Sheikh Fida Hussain Jawad Wala, Sheikh Ali Ahmed Saranagpur Wala, Sheikh Sajjad Hussain Mashreq Wala, Janab Aqib bhai Palana Wala, etc
• Teachers of Bohra Youth for Junior’s: Mulla Saleh Mohammed Baroda Wala, Mulla Taher Ali Sirki Wala, Mulla sahab Chachuliya wala, Mulla sahab Press Wala (Sarangpur Wala), Mulla Fazal Hussain DM (Fazal bhai), Mulla sahab Kankroli Wala, Janab Muddasar Ali Zari, Janab Ali Asgar Khilona Wala, Mulla Anees Hita Wala, Mulla Taher Hussain Lokhandwala, etc
Background of all Bohra Youth Teachers – dedicated their life to learn and teach Fatimi Dawat Deeniyat. No police records, no court cases, never convicted, lived modest and humble life.
Background of Kothar (TEACHERS OF SHABAB TEACHERS) –
(i) Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 – (i) Tehelka and (ii) Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
(ii) Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
(iii) Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
(iv) Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
(v) The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
(vi) A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
(vii) The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
(viii) Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
(ix) Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
(x) The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay
(3) Subject matter:
In Bohra Youth, for Senior Hulka, the weekly sabak were/are regularly conducted inside the mosque/sabeel office – several times Ismaili Tafseer of Quran was completed based on the books like (i) Sharhul Akhbar, (ii) Asasul Taweel, (iii) Taweel’ud Daimul Islam, (iv) Tohafatul masail kitaab, (v) Ooyunul Akhbaar, (vi) Ikhwan us safa (all 52+1 risala’s) and scores & scores of other authentic Fatimi books.
In Bohra Shabab, Shabab mumineen are not even allowed to read meaning/translation of Quran. Kothar spoon feed reason is the translations are not authentic so do not read it, let’s agree with this hypothesis of Kothar, WHY TILL DATE KOTHAR WITH ALL THEIR MATERIAL MIGHT HAVE YET NOT PUBLISHED THE AUTHENTIC TRANSLATION OF QURAN FOR COMMON MUMINEEN – so, ignorance prevails, coming generations will be more dumb, theological reasoning power of Shabab mumineen will steadily deteriorate and “dukaan” of kothar will keep on minting money by conning common Shabab mumineen – so not even the basic i.e. Quran is accessible to common Shabab.
Bhai Hussain_KSA once wrote, in the Jamia Saifiya, in the final examination at the senior most level the question in the exam asked: recite the madah of Syedina Tahir Saifuddin, Jamia student who correctly sung it was passed in the exam!!! Jamia Saifiya original name was “Dars-a-Saify” built by our rightful Dai Syedina Molana Abde Ali Saifuddin (43rd Dai) but our community assets are illegitimately occupied by present Kothar and they are abusing the system, instead of nurturing and growing AALIMS from “Dars-a-Saifi”, present Kothar is producing the staff members to run their business of religion.
For juniors - Shabab Urdu Quaida (book) teaches "Alif" se "Allah" and the photo next to it is kept blank. Youth wala's urdu Quaida (Mulla Taher Ali Lokhand Wala) has "Alif" for "Angoor" (grapes). Alif is the first letter, a kid cannot see photo of Allah so it is difficult to associate letter of Alif but if kid is shown photo of Angoor he can recognise the photo and so as the letter. Hence, for juniours also Youth literature and methods have merit over Shabab literature.
Few weeks back, a group of 20 juniours (kids) went from Udaipur to Malegaon - Islamic quiz competition were conducted, exhibition were done by those students, those 20 were even taught subject like how to give bath to dead-bodies besides other aspects of deeniyat.
(4) Deeniyat (Fatimi dawat) Books publication:
Bohra Shabab - Kothar has published NO important books like Daimul Islam, Tafseer of Quran, etc.
Bohra Youth – has published HUNDREDS of books of Fatimi Dawat, to PREACH knowledge among the younger generation they even translated Daimul Islam in Hindi, the first part was out year and half back, the 2nd part of Daimul Islam in Hindi will shortly be out. To promote – offering namaz with understanding “Ahyul-lail” is being translated in Hindi. Coaching parents on how to raise their kids – per Fatimi Dawat – that book “Allah walo ka bachpan” is published in Hindi. “Amar Kahani of Molae Qutbuddin Shaheed” is published in Hindi, etc. several books are published on Fatimi Imam, Hadees of Prophet, Life of all Dais, books of Dai Syedina Hatim (r), etc… hundreds of these books are published by scholars of Bohra Youth. Jamat General secretary Bhai Abid Ali Adeeb is presently translating the “Nasihat of Mazoon Syedi Lukman Jeev sahab, Udaipur” from Sanskrit to Hindi for general public so common men character will improve – can Kothar even think of pursuing such noble jobs???
(5) Accessibility of Fatimi books:
Bohra Shabab: NO public libraries where Fatimi Dawat books are accessible. No website where Bohra Shabab mumineen can download the Dawat books. Kothar is bankrupting the learning attitude of our Shababi mumineen and making them ROBOT with zero knowledge and brainwashed to abide by any religiously correct/incorrect command of Kothar.
Bohra Youth: Public library with finest Fatimi Dawat books in Burhaniya Library, Hathipole, Udaipur and Library of Malegaon, Maharashtra. On this very website books are available from: Syedna Abu Yaqub al Sijistani, Syedina Kazi Noman; Nahjul Balagha, Wazkur fil Kitaab Ismail, etc – anyone can download these great authentic Fatimi literatures at NO cost.
(6)
Progticide: "There hasn’t been any major succession dispute in the DBs with any conflicting claims over Dai-ship for a few hundred years now."
Doctor: Roshan Khayal Jamat (RKJ), Malegaon, Maharashtra has challenged Taher Saifuddin (TS) sahab when he unlike his four predecessor claimed that he is the Dai Mutlaq indeed. In 1923, RKJ publically rejected TS inventive claims on Dai-ship. Mulla Ji Burhan, when he was Mazoon he visited Malegaon, and immediately made a firm self-resolution to never-ever dare to visit Malegaon again and passed same wasiyat to his kutumb. After that visit as Mazoon, Mulla Ji Burhan never ever dared to visit Malegaon again.
(7) The Kothar has failed to create an organized knowledge system in religious and cultural sciences. And “Dars-a-Saifi / Jamia Saifiya” that they theft from our rightful 43rd Dai – they have turned it into staff training center.
(8) In the name of religious scholars and clergy, all that the Shabab community could muster is plenty of self-centered, self-proclaimed Kothar bhai-sahabs and shahzada sahab’s who have their own personal agenda and vested interest in attending majlises, daras, nikaah, and other community functions. These characteristics of theirs failed to attract any major respect or allegiance in the Islamic and non-Islamic population toward them (refer point# 2 again) and they only served to be symbolic figure-heads for religious matters otherwise they are true material leaders like Asaram Bapu, Sri Satya Sai Baba, etc.
(9) Since these Kothar conman’s themselves are not popular enough they had little buying for their opinion and ideas. They pay/spend money looted from Bohra mumineen and invite dignitaries who are kaafirs like Narendra Modi, Thakre, etc. In the absence of an organized knowledge system, these conmen could only manage to produce ROBOT like staff members from “Jamia Saifia” which in turn brain wash common Shababi mumineen.
(10) Without any fresh inflow of highly trained individuals like Shaheed Sheikh Sajjad Hussain Sarangpur Wala, who are well-educated in the various aspects of Fatimi doctrines in areas of Sharia, Fiqh, Aqaid, Taweel and Haqaiq, the dependence of the Shabab populace on the current Kothar for their day-to-day matters (after paying lot of money/salam) is questionable per se.
(11) Kothar has been pushing their own views and agenda, influenced by their own free thoughts, and no monitoring of the knowledge dispensed to ordinary Shabab followers.
(12) Without allegiance to or monitoring by Imam-uz-zaman, Kothar is seeding the unsuspecting Shabab population with their own home-bred ideas and religious thoughts, occasionally upholding the Fatimi literature to show their following the DB beliefs, but slowly and steadily pushing their baseless doctrines that Burhanuddin sahib is Imam and he is God into the minds of the new and old Shabab generation.
(13) Kothar is like “Dead body”, as time passes it will rot and cause bad-smell. As the generation is passing, younger Shabab generation is more religiously bankrupt than their predecessors. As generation passes the learning, education and authenticity of the younger Kothari assuming roles of their KHANDANI-DHARAM-KA-DHANDHA, and their adherence to core DB beliefs and their effectiveness in holding together the religious beliefs and cultural identity of the Shabab population should be a matter of concern for the Shababi (secret thinker / aalims in Taqiyaat) today itself.
(14) Hence, the question that arises today and which the Bohra Shabab (with thinking power) should immediately start addressing is the consequences of the religious misguidance dispensed to them today by their Kothar and the consequences of the lack of authentic DB religious and cultural guidance to their present and coming generation.
Shabab mumineen should debate amongst themselves the following three questions:
Who Trains whom? - Is the Kothar or their staff does anything without receiving ADVANCE FEES (Salam)? Master Kothar trains their Staff (Mulla / Sheikh / Aamils) to not to do any work of mumineen for sake of religion but only for the sake of money.
Kothar training at Jamia saifiya to new staff who are to-be-clerics will they be sufficiently educated, honest and efficient in training the to-be-clerics? How can Kothar who DOES NOT FOLLOW and does not know the Fatimi Dawat will teach and hand out Fatimi Dawat / Quranic lessons to others?
The only criterion that Kothar, the master teacher look in to-be-clerics is their easiness to get brain-washed and in turn take this chain ahead and brain wash common Shababi mumineen. Kothar screening test does not include if the to-be-clerk is able to responsibly dispense religious issues to be handled by them, do these to-be-clerics possess required acumen and intellect for their role? Kothar only criterion is apprentice should display ability to be slave of Kothar. In final examination also the test is prove the degree of your slavery to Kothar.
Who preaches what? – Daroo drinkers are made Sheikhs because they pay money to Kothar!!! During rightful Dai-mutlaq sons of Dai’s who were not educated were not allowed to sit next in tarteeb to Dai, merit use to speak. The zahil sons were referred as “Bhai Sahab”, all Kothar families are “Bhai sahab”.
Is there a system put in place by the Kothar so common mumineen can know what is the religious inclination of these clerics – are they diligently following the rules of Fatimi Dawat or only doing “notanki” to be one? What are their personal beliefs and what they are preaching the population in the various Shababi controlled mosques, schools and jamaats?
Is there a central doctrine which these clerics have to follow or are they masters of themselves free to dispense any thought of their liking and interest? What is the literature that these clerics are drawing their information from other than Fatimi DB literature? How is the knowledge dispensation regulated and uniformed in the various jamaats? How do you control or stop the preaching of anti-Fatimi DB beliefs?
Who monitors? – Kothar preach people to hang photos of 51/52 – not even one reference from any Fatimi book can Kothar bring to justify this act of theirs. 43rd Dai declared seena zani as Haram but Kothar will promote seena zani and bring azab to their followers, Kothar will do lot of Biddat and fool Shabab Mumineen that that is Fatimi Dawat!!!
Is there a monitoring system to know that nothing outside or against the statutes of Fatimi beliefs is fed into the Shababi population? What checks and balances are being put in place to ensure that the Shabab Mosques and schools do not start breeding KUFR and SHIRK? What pre-control mechanisms and damage-control mechanisms are put in place in the event something of this sort takes place? Who has been assigned the authority to stop/censure/reprimand any such person from feeding anti-DB beliefs and thoughts into the minds of Shababi mumineen? What happens if the person assigned the authority to oversee this responsibility gets influenced by anti-DB beliefs and fails to perform the duty? What monitoring mechanisms have the Shabab/Kothar arranged to ensure that misguidance and misdirection of the current and coming generation is avoided and a close religious and cultural blend with the TRUE DB faith is maintained?
(1) Academically / Educationally Qualified - "Doctor":
> Bohra Shabab leader Mulla Ji Burhanuddin sahab did NOT went to school/colleges to EARN the title of "Doctor" but was only GIFTED by virtue of him being NAAZIM of OUR Bohra community.
> Bohra Youth leader Proff. Mehdi Hasan EARNED the title of "Doctor" by pursuing education.
>> Hence, Bohra Youth leader is more educated and indeed true scholar than Bohra Shabab leader.
(2) Teachers background comparisons:
• Teachers of Bohra Youth for seniors: Mulla Mohammed Ji Abdul Ali Bambora Wala (Head Master Sahab), Mulla Qurban Hussain Raj, Sheikh Yaqoob Ali Raj, Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj, Sheikh Hasan Ali Sarangpur Wala, Mulla Ismail Ji Hibtullah Ji Attarwala, Sheikh Fida Hussain Jawad Wala, Sheikh Ali Ahmed Saranagpur Wala, Sheikh Sajjad Hussain Mashreq Wala, Janab Aqib bhai Palana Wala, etc
• Teachers of Bohra Youth for Junior’s: Mulla Saleh Mohammed Baroda Wala, Mulla Taher Ali Sirki Wala, Mulla sahab Chachuliya wala, Mulla sahab Press Wala (Sarangpur Wala), Mulla Fazal Hussain DM (Fazal bhai), Mulla sahab Kankroli Wala, Janab Muddasar Ali Zari, Janab Ali Asgar Khilona Wala, Mulla Anees Hita Wala, Mulla Taher Hussain Lokhandwala, etc
Background of all Bohra Youth Teachers – dedicated their life to learn and teach Fatimi Dawat Deeniyat. No police records, no court cases, never convicted, lived modest and humble life.
Background of Kothar (TEACHERS OF SHABAB TEACHERS) –
(i) Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 – (i) Tehelka and (ii) Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
(ii) Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
(iii) Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
(iv) Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
(v) The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
(vi) A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
(vii) The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
(viii) Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
(ix) Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
(x) The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay
(3) Subject matter:
In Bohra Youth, for Senior Hulka, the weekly sabak were/are regularly conducted inside the mosque/sabeel office – several times Ismaili Tafseer of Quran was completed based on the books like (i) Sharhul Akhbar, (ii) Asasul Taweel, (iii) Taweel’ud Daimul Islam, (iv) Tohafatul masail kitaab, (v) Ooyunul Akhbaar, (vi) Ikhwan us safa (all 52+1 risala’s) and scores & scores of other authentic Fatimi books.
In Bohra Shabab, Shabab mumineen are not even allowed to read meaning/translation of Quran. Kothar spoon feed reason is the translations are not authentic so do not read it, let’s agree with this hypothesis of Kothar, WHY TILL DATE KOTHAR WITH ALL THEIR MATERIAL MIGHT HAVE YET NOT PUBLISHED THE AUTHENTIC TRANSLATION OF QURAN FOR COMMON MUMINEEN – so, ignorance prevails, coming generations will be more dumb, theological reasoning power of Shabab mumineen will steadily deteriorate and “dukaan” of kothar will keep on minting money by conning common Shabab mumineen – so not even the basic i.e. Quran is accessible to common Shabab.
Bhai Hussain_KSA once wrote, in the Jamia Saifiya, in the final examination at the senior most level the question in the exam asked: recite the madah of Syedina Tahir Saifuddin, Jamia student who correctly sung it was passed in the exam!!! Jamia Saifiya original name was “Dars-a-Saify” built by our rightful Dai Syedina Molana Abde Ali Saifuddin (43rd Dai) but our community assets are illegitimately occupied by present Kothar and they are abusing the system, instead of nurturing and growing AALIMS from “Dars-a-Saifi”, present Kothar is producing the staff members to run their business of religion.
For juniors - Shabab Urdu Quaida (book) teaches "Alif" se "Allah" and the photo next to it is kept blank. Youth wala's urdu Quaida (Mulla Taher Ali Lokhand Wala) has "Alif" for "Angoor" (grapes). Alif is the first letter, a kid cannot see photo of Allah so it is difficult to associate letter of Alif but if kid is shown photo of Angoor he can recognise the photo and so as the letter. Hence, for juniours also Youth literature and methods have merit over Shabab literature.
Few weeks back, a group of 20 juniours (kids) went from Udaipur to Malegaon - Islamic quiz competition were conducted, exhibition were done by those students, those 20 were even taught subject like how to give bath to dead-bodies besides other aspects of deeniyat.
(4) Deeniyat (Fatimi dawat) Books publication:
Bohra Shabab - Kothar has published NO important books like Daimul Islam, Tafseer of Quran, etc.
Bohra Youth – has published HUNDREDS of books of Fatimi Dawat, to PREACH knowledge among the younger generation they even translated Daimul Islam in Hindi, the first part was out year and half back, the 2nd part of Daimul Islam in Hindi will shortly be out. To promote – offering namaz with understanding “Ahyul-lail” is being translated in Hindi. Coaching parents on how to raise their kids – per Fatimi Dawat – that book “Allah walo ka bachpan” is published in Hindi. “Amar Kahani of Molae Qutbuddin Shaheed” is published in Hindi, etc. several books are published on Fatimi Imam, Hadees of Prophet, Life of all Dais, books of Dai Syedina Hatim (r), etc… hundreds of these books are published by scholars of Bohra Youth. Jamat General secretary Bhai Abid Ali Adeeb is presently translating the “Nasihat of Mazoon Syedi Lukman Jeev sahab, Udaipur” from Sanskrit to Hindi for general public so common men character will improve – can Kothar even think of pursuing such noble jobs???
(5) Accessibility of Fatimi books:
Bohra Shabab: NO public libraries where Fatimi Dawat books are accessible. No website where Bohra Shabab mumineen can download the Dawat books. Kothar is bankrupting the learning attitude of our Shababi mumineen and making them ROBOT with zero knowledge and brainwashed to abide by any religiously correct/incorrect command of Kothar.
Bohra Youth: Public library with finest Fatimi Dawat books in Burhaniya Library, Hathipole, Udaipur and Library of Malegaon, Maharashtra. On this very website books are available from: Syedna Abu Yaqub al Sijistani, Syedina Kazi Noman; Nahjul Balagha, Wazkur fil Kitaab Ismail, etc – anyone can download these great authentic Fatimi literatures at NO cost.
(6)
Progticide: "There hasn’t been any major succession dispute in the DBs with any conflicting claims over Dai-ship for a few hundred years now."
Doctor: Roshan Khayal Jamat (RKJ), Malegaon, Maharashtra has challenged Taher Saifuddin (TS) sahab when he unlike his four predecessor claimed that he is the Dai Mutlaq indeed. In 1923, RKJ publically rejected TS inventive claims on Dai-ship. Mulla Ji Burhan, when he was Mazoon he visited Malegaon, and immediately made a firm self-resolution to never-ever dare to visit Malegaon again and passed same wasiyat to his kutumb. After that visit as Mazoon, Mulla Ji Burhan never ever dared to visit Malegaon again.
(7) The Kothar has failed to create an organized knowledge system in religious and cultural sciences. And “Dars-a-Saifi / Jamia Saifiya” that they theft from our rightful 43rd Dai – they have turned it into staff training center.
(8) In the name of religious scholars and clergy, all that the Shabab community could muster is plenty of self-centered, self-proclaimed Kothar bhai-sahabs and shahzada sahab’s who have their own personal agenda and vested interest in attending majlises, daras, nikaah, and other community functions. These characteristics of theirs failed to attract any major respect or allegiance in the Islamic and non-Islamic population toward them (refer point# 2 again) and they only served to be symbolic figure-heads for religious matters otherwise they are true material leaders like Asaram Bapu, Sri Satya Sai Baba, etc.
(9) Since these Kothar conman’s themselves are not popular enough they had little buying for their opinion and ideas. They pay/spend money looted from Bohra mumineen and invite dignitaries who are kaafirs like Narendra Modi, Thakre, etc. In the absence of an organized knowledge system, these conmen could only manage to produce ROBOT like staff members from “Jamia Saifia” which in turn brain wash common Shababi mumineen.
(10) Without any fresh inflow of highly trained individuals like Shaheed Sheikh Sajjad Hussain Sarangpur Wala, who are well-educated in the various aspects of Fatimi doctrines in areas of Sharia, Fiqh, Aqaid, Taweel and Haqaiq, the dependence of the Shabab populace on the current Kothar for their day-to-day matters (after paying lot of money/salam) is questionable per se.
(11) Kothar has been pushing their own views and agenda, influenced by their own free thoughts, and no monitoring of the knowledge dispensed to ordinary Shabab followers.
(12) Without allegiance to or monitoring by Imam-uz-zaman, Kothar is seeding the unsuspecting Shabab population with their own home-bred ideas and religious thoughts, occasionally upholding the Fatimi literature to show their following the DB beliefs, but slowly and steadily pushing their baseless doctrines that Burhanuddin sahib is Imam and he is God into the minds of the new and old Shabab generation.
(13) Kothar is like “Dead body”, as time passes it will rot and cause bad-smell. As the generation is passing, younger Shabab generation is more religiously bankrupt than their predecessors. As generation passes the learning, education and authenticity of the younger Kothari assuming roles of their KHANDANI-DHARAM-KA-DHANDHA, and their adherence to core DB beliefs and their effectiveness in holding together the religious beliefs and cultural identity of the Shabab population should be a matter of concern for the Shababi (secret thinker / aalims in Taqiyaat) today itself.
(14) Hence, the question that arises today and which the Bohra Shabab (with thinking power) should immediately start addressing is the consequences of the religious misguidance dispensed to them today by their Kothar and the consequences of the lack of authentic DB religious and cultural guidance to their present and coming generation.
Shabab mumineen should debate amongst themselves the following three questions:
Who Trains whom? - Is the Kothar or their staff does anything without receiving ADVANCE FEES (Salam)? Master Kothar trains their Staff (Mulla / Sheikh / Aamils) to not to do any work of mumineen for sake of religion but only for the sake of money.
Kothar training at Jamia saifiya to new staff who are to-be-clerics will they be sufficiently educated, honest and efficient in training the to-be-clerics? How can Kothar who DOES NOT FOLLOW and does not know the Fatimi Dawat will teach and hand out Fatimi Dawat / Quranic lessons to others?
The only criterion that Kothar, the master teacher look in to-be-clerics is their easiness to get brain-washed and in turn take this chain ahead and brain wash common Shababi mumineen. Kothar screening test does not include if the to-be-clerk is able to responsibly dispense religious issues to be handled by them, do these to-be-clerics possess required acumen and intellect for their role? Kothar only criterion is apprentice should display ability to be slave of Kothar. In final examination also the test is prove the degree of your slavery to Kothar.
Who preaches what? – Daroo drinkers are made Sheikhs because they pay money to Kothar!!! During rightful Dai-mutlaq sons of Dai’s who were not educated were not allowed to sit next in tarteeb to Dai, merit use to speak. The zahil sons were referred as “Bhai Sahab”, all Kothar families are “Bhai sahab”.
Is there a system put in place by the Kothar so common mumineen can know what is the religious inclination of these clerics – are they diligently following the rules of Fatimi Dawat or only doing “notanki” to be one? What are their personal beliefs and what they are preaching the population in the various Shababi controlled mosques, schools and jamaats?
Is there a central doctrine which these clerics have to follow or are they masters of themselves free to dispense any thought of their liking and interest? What is the literature that these clerics are drawing their information from other than Fatimi DB literature? How is the knowledge dispensation regulated and uniformed in the various jamaats? How do you control or stop the preaching of anti-Fatimi DB beliefs?
Who monitors? – Kothar preach people to hang photos of 51/52 – not even one reference from any Fatimi book can Kothar bring to justify this act of theirs. 43rd Dai declared seena zani as Haram but Kothar will promote seena zani and bring azab to their followers, Kothar will do lot of Biddat and fool Shabab Mumineen that that is Fatimi Dawat!!!
Is there a monitoring system to know that nothing outside or against the statutes of Fatimi beliefs is fed into the Shababi population? What checks and balances are being put in place to ensure that the Shabab Mosques and schools do not start breeding KUFR and SHIRK? What pre-control mechanisms and damage-control mechanisms are put in place in the event something of this sort takes place? Who has been assigned the authority to stop/censure/reprimand any such person from feeding anti-DB beliefs and thoughts into the minds of Shababi mumineen? What happens if the person assigned the authority to oversee this responsibility gets influenced by anti-DB beliefs and fails to perform the duty? What monitoring mechanisms have the Shabab/Kothar arranged to ensure that misguidance and misdirection of the current and coming generation is avoided and a close religious and cultural blend with the TRUE DB faith is maintained?
Re: FAO: Progticide
Bhai Doctor who teaches you this false truth that Syedna Taher saifuddin is not Our Dai and how you can use such Foul Language to our Dai, Mullaji BurhanDoctor wrote: Progticide: "There hasn’t been any major succession dispute in the DBs with any conflicting claims over Dai-ship for a few hundred years now."
Doctor: Roshan Khayal Jamat (RKJ), Malegaon, Maharashtra has challenged Taher Saifuddin (TS) sahab when he unlike his four predecessor claimed that he is the Dai Mutlaq indeed. In 1923, RKJ publically rejected TS inventive claims on Dai-ship. Mulla Ji Burhan, when he was Mazoon he visited Malegaon, and immediately made a firm self-resolution to never-ever dare to visit Malegaon again and passed same wasiyat to his kutumb. After that visit as Mazoon, Mulla Ji Burhan never ever dared to visit Malegaon again.
I know here on this forum what all members are saying about me and have doubt on me that who am i Abde or Reformist. I am Reformist but not Enemy of Dai, One Should not use such Foul and Harsh language against our own Community.Grow up this is not A three hour Film. this is real life.
This Authentic Progressive Bohra yuth site State itself that we belongs to this community and We Believe in Current Dai
See the below mentioned link
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/about_us/our-mission/