several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

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aqs
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several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#1

Unread post by aqs » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:33 am

Eid is meant to mark the end of the month-long fast of Ramzan, but if the Ruyat-e-Hilal Committee (Chand Committee) has its way, several Muslims will have to observe a day of fasting after celebrating Eid.

The cause of this confusion is the fact that the moon was sighted in Mumbai only July 21, because of which the Ramzan fast started on July 22 for many city Muslims. In other parts of the country, it started a day earlier.

Mufti Mehmood Akhtar, a member of the Chand Committee, said, “The moon is expected to be spotted this Sunday, so Eid will be celebrated on Monday. While in other parts of the country people will have completed 30 days of fasting by Sunday, many Muslims in Mumbai we will have fasted for just 29 days. Therefore, we have decided that after Eid, we will observe a day of fast.”

Late-night meeting

Akhtar met with leaders of various Muslim sects and mosques late last night to communicate this decision to them. The Chand Committee is meant to be common for all sects of Muslims, and their announcements are considered binding.

A Muslim leader, who requested anonymity, said, “We will all have to break the news in our mosques and explain why the decision of fasting after Eid has been taken. There are those among us as well who do not agree with it, so conveying it to the people is not going to be an easy task.”

Opposition

As news of this decision started to spread, many Muslims voiced their opposition to it. Majid Khan, a resident of Chembur, said, “Because of the confusion over spotting the moon, Ramzan began one day late in the city. I too started fasting only from Sunday. The way I see it, I ate on Saturday (July 21), the day I was supposed to begin fasting. But to expect us to fast after Eid is certainly not acceptable. It is causing needless confusion. I wish there was a uniform method of observing Ramzan.”

Mehboob Khan, a resident of Mohammed Ali Road, was equally vocal about his opposition. “While we are supposed to obey whatever our religious leaders tell us, it is really sad to see such confusion over fasting. It must end. Ramzan is a very spiritual time and I don’t think I will fast after Eid, even if my leaders ask me to,” he said.


http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/2/2 ... 80%99.html

lakshya
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#2

Unread post by lakshya » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:07 am

have no words to condemn this stupidity :mrgreen:

porus
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#3

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:17 am

New moon will be on August 17. Eid will be on the 18th. That is so according to Misri Calendar and that is correct.

Eid Mubarak to you all.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#4

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:38 pm

Its high time that the mainstream muslims show their ulemas their rightly deserved place as each is trying to be one up on the other. They need an "Ulema srping" similar to the "Arab spring".

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#5

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:37 pm

by porus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:17 pm
New moon will be on August 17. Eid will be on the 18th. That is so according to Misri Calendar and that is correct.
Eid Mubarak to you all.

New moon will be born on 15:54 (say 16:00 for simplicity) UST on August 17, 2012

In Sydney Australia new moon will be 16:00 + 10 = 26-24 = 2 AM on August 18 therefor Eid should be on August 19?

Please correct if I erred

porus
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#6

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:47 pm

Muslim First wrote:
by porus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:17 pm
New moon will be on August 17. Eid will be on the 18th. That is so according to Misri Calendar and that is correct.
Eid Mubarak to you all.

New moon will be born on 15:54 (say 16:00 for simplicity) UST on August 17, 2012

In Sydney Australia new moon will be 16:00 + 10 = 26-24 = 2 AM on August 18 therefor Eid should be on August 19?

Please correct if I erred
New Moon in Australia will be BEFORE sunrise on August 18. It is at sunrise that the Muslim Day begins. So, Eid is on the 18th.

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#7

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:55 pm

porus wrote:
New Moon in Australia will be BEFORE sunrise on August 18. It is at sunrise that the Muslim Day begins. So, Eid is on the 18th.
May be in Bohra Ismaili Islam.

In Islam it begins at sunset
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar#Months
O' mankind! Fasting and namaaz have been made compulsory upon you because you are afflicted by sinfulness – Imam Ahmed al-Mastuur (AS), Ikhwaan-ul-Safa

The Islamic calendar, however, is based on a different set of conventions.[28] Each month has either 29 or 30 days, but usually in no discernible order. Traditionally, the first day of each month is the day (beginning at sunset) of the first sighting of the hilal (crescent moon) shortly after sunset. If the hilal is not observed immediately after the 29th day of a month (either because clouds block its view or because the western sky is still too bright when the moon sets), then the day that begins at that sunset is the 30th. Such a sighting has to be made by one or more trustworthy men testifying before a committee of Muslim leaders. Determining the most likely day that the hilal could be observed was a motivation for Muslim interest in astronomy, which put Islam in the forefront of that science for many centuries.
This traditional practice is still followed in the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries. Each Islamic state proceeds with its own monthly observation of the new moon (or, failing that, awaits the completion of 30 days) before declaring the beginning of a new month on its territory. But, the lunar crescent becomes visible only some 15–18 hours after the conjunction, and only subject to the existence of a number of favourable conditions relative to weather, time, geographic location, as well as various astronomical parameters.[29] Given the fact that the moon sets progressively later than the sun as one goes west, western Muslim countries are likely to observe the new moon one day earlier than eastern Muslim countries. Due to the interplay of all these factors, the beginning of each month differs from one Muslim country to another, and the information provided by the calendar in any country does not extend beyond the current month.

porus
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#8

Unread post by porus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:05 pm

porus wrote: New Moon in Australia will be BEFORE sunrise on August 18. It is at sunrise that the Muslim Day begins. So, Eid is on the 18th.
My apologies, br. MF

Muslim 24 hour day begins at sunset.

However, Muslims generally have 12 (approx) hour night followed by 12 (approx) hour day. You will have seen, in the old days, that clocks in Muslim lands were shifted by 12 hours. They still do in some places.

When they observe the Shawwal hilal at night (before the next sunrise), they will observe Eid the following sunrise.

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#9

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:17 pm

When they observe the Shawwal hilal at night (before the next sunrise), they will observe Eid the following sunrise.
Conjunction happens at 2AM August 18th. So hilal will be seen on Augst 18 after sunset. Therefore Eid will be on August 19 for Mainstream Muslim.

It does not matter what Bohra do.
Moonsighting for Shawwal 1433
http://moonsighting.com/1433shw.html
The Astronomical New Moon is on August 17, 2012 (Friday) at 15:54 UT. On Friday, August 17, it can not be seen anywhere in the populated world by naked eye, binoculars, or even high powered telescope. On Saturday, August 18, 2012, it can be easily seen in Southern Africa, Central and South Americas. On August 19, it can be seen in rest of the whole world (See visibility curves).

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#10

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:25 pm

Porus
When they observe the Shawwal hilal at night (before the next sunrise), they will observe Eid the following sunrise.
When conjunction happens at 2 AM it takes additional 15-18 hours for Hilal to be seen.

Safiuddin
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#11

Unread post by Safiuddin » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:59 pm

This is so ludicrous it defies comment. To think that
sane people feel they HAVE to do something just because some
so-and-so said it. Unbelievable.

anajmi
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:40 am

Actually, all of us fall into this category of people. All of us, and not just the religious folks, have things they do because some so and so said it. For eg. people go out and buy an iPhone because some so and so said it on tv!! You will find hundreds of such examples in your everyday life.

porus
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#13

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:06 am

Muslim First wrote:
Porus
When they observe the Shawwal hilal at night (before the next sunrise), they will observe Eid the following sunrise.
When conjunction happens at 2 AM it takes additional 15-18 hours for Hilal to be seen.
You are correct. Hilal cannot be observed (by humans) at the New Moon event.

What I really meant was that when New Moon occurs before sunrise, Eid should be observed at sunrise.

If the New Moon occurs after sunrise, then Eid should be observed at the following sunrise. Hilal may take another day (or two) to be seen by the naked eye.

Eid Mubarak.

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#14

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:02 pm

porus wrote:
What I really meant was that when New Moon occurs before sunrise, Eid should be observed at sunrise.

If the New Moon occurs after sunrise, then Eid should be observed at the following sunrise. Hilal may take another day (or two) to be seen by the naked eye.
Is this in Ahadith or Qur'an?
Eid Mubarak.
Here is what Prophet said
In an authentic narration, the Prophet (saws) mentioned Ramadan, and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent of Ramadan and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent of Shawwal, but if the sky is overcast, then act on estimation and count Sha'baan as 30 days.”

In another authentic narration the Prophet (saws) said,  “The month can be 29 days, so do not fast till you see the moon, and if the sky is overcast, then complete Sha'baan as thirty days.”
So what happened to this?

BlackSaya
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#15

Unread post by BlackSaya » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:20 pm

Porus,

According to the Misri calender, Ramadan and Bohras started fasting on Thursday, July 19th.

According to http://moonsighting.com/1433rmd.html,
"The Astronomical New Moon is on July 19, 2012 (Thursday) at 4:24 UT"

Now, this means that in India it would be 9:54am on THURSDAY when the new moon is BORN!

So according to your sunrise logic, all bohras in southasia and eastward are incorrect in starting Ramadan on July 19th. This is why the Misri calender cannot be taken seriously.

Cheers!

porus
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#16

Unread post by porus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:03 pm

BlackSaya wrote:Porus,

According to the Misri calender, Ramadan and Bohras started fasting on Thursday, July 19th.

According to http://moonsighting.com/1433rmd.html,
"The Astronomical New Moon is on July 19, 2012 (Thursday) at 4:24 UT"

Now, this means that in India it would be 9:54am on THURSDAY when the new moon is BORN!

So according to your sunrise logic, all bohras in southasia and eastward are incorrect in starting Ramadan on July 19th. This is why the Misri calender cannot be taken seriously.

Cheers!
You cannot fault Misri Calendar through the math it employs for calculation.

I have previously made it very clear that New Moon occurs at different times on earth. Hence a standard was set forth by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq who deserves the credit for creating the Misri Calendar. It was based on Madina initially and then revived during Fatimid times. The Calendar was re-calculated for Cairo and hence it is called Misri (Egyptian) Calendar. The intention was for all Muslims to start the Eid on the same day on the basis of calculation of New Moon in Cairo.

This issue has been extensively discussed before on this forum. Go to this link:

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... sri#p71596

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#17

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Tabular Islamic calendar

Main article: Tabular Islamic calendar( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabular_Islamic_calendar )
There exists a variation of the Islamic calendar known as the tabular Islamic calendar in which months are worked out by arithmetic rules rather than by observation or astronomical calculation. It has a 30-year cycle with 11 leap years of 355 days and 19 years of 354 days. In the long term, it is accurate to one day in about 2,500 years. It also deviates up to about one or two days in the short term.This calendar is a type of Fatimid calendar and followed by the Dawoodi Bohra in true sense.
[edit]
The Calendar was re-calculated for Cairo and hence it is called Misri (Egyptian) Calendar. The intention was for all Muslims to start the Eid on the same day on the basis of calculation of New Moon in Cairo.
It appears all Muslims are DB s only.
It very well reflects in Doctors post and Br porus's emphases that Bohra Eid date is correct.

Yes I agree, there is lot of disunity on start and end of Ramadan.
Even if Muslim Umma will accept one of solutions being floted, DBs will not accept it. Cult marches under only one flag.

anajmi
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:44 pm

Bro Muslim First,

I think it is more important to worry about the Muslim Ummah adopting a standard method of detemining the beginning and end of the month, because clearly, the Ulema are inept at doing so consistently. Fasting is fard whereas observing the Moon is the sunnah of the prophet (saw). One shouldn't be missing fasts because of mistakes made while following the sunnah as was done in sighting the moon in Mumbai. And this isn't the first time that this has happened.

Whether bohras will follow that calendar or not is immaterial.

aflatoon
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#19

Unread post by aflatoon » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:11 am

bro anajmi,

the main concern regarding your opinion for adopting a standard method for determining the start and end of a month the question is that who will decide it. For that there has to be a consensus among ulemas of different school of thought which in my opinion would be big task.

ozmujaheed
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#20

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:10 am

porus wrote:
BlackSaya wrote:Porus,

According to the Misri calender, Ramadan and Bohras started fasting on Thursday, July 19th.

According to http://moonsighting.com/1433rmd.html,
"The Astronomical New Moon is on July 19, 2012 (Thursday) at 4:24 UT"

Now, this means that in India it would be 9:54am on THURSDAY when the new moon is BORN!

So according to your sunrise logic, all bohras in southasia and eastward are incorrect in starting Ramadan on July 19th. This is why the Misri calender cannot be taken seriously.

Cheers!
You cannot fault Misri Calendar through the math it employs for calculation.

I have previously made it very clear that New Moon occurs at different times on earth. Hence a standard was set forth by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq who deserves the credit for creating the Misri Calendar. It was based on Madina initially and then revived during Fatimid times. The Calendar was re-calculated for Cairo and hence it is called Misri (Egyptian) Calendar. The intention was for all Muslims to start the Eid on the same day on the basis of calculation of New Moon in Cairo.

This issue has been extensively discussed before on this forum. Go to this link:

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... sri#p71596
If Misri calendar was created by imam Jafar Sadiq as why do the thnaasheri or Iran not follow calendar to start and finish Ramadan ?

porus
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#21

Unread post by porus » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:58 am

ozmujaheed wrote:
porus wrote:
I have previously made it very clear that New Moon occurs at different times on earth. Hence a standard was set forth by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq who deserves the credit for creating the Misri Calendar. It was based on Madina initially and then revived during Fatimid times. The Calendar was re-calculated for Cairo and hence it is called Misri (Egyptian) Calendar. The intention was for all Muslims to start the Eid on the same day on the basis of calculation of New Moon in Cairo.
If Misri calendar was created by imam Jafar Sadiq as why do the thnaasheri or Iran not follow calendar to start and finish Ramadan ?
Good question. I wonder why?

I speculate that in the 'power struggle' between the followers of Imam Ismail and Imam Musa al-Kadhim, Ismailies revived the calendar first and Ithna-asharis decided to follow the majority practice of 'observing' the crescent; otherwise they (Ithna-asharis) would have been seen to be supporting the Ismailies, which they would have preferred not to do.

Hadith points to personal observation of the crescent to reckon the start of the month. Quran insists that all planetary orbits are fixed. So the reasonable thing to do is to decide whether we should follow an error-prone human's observation of the crescent or God's 'observation' of the New Moon in the reckoning of the start of the month. In my opinion, Quran trumps Hadith.

I speculate that that was the thought process of early Ismailies. A later justification for this very reasonable view was to state that when the Quran refers to the the observation/following of the 'moon', it actually refers to following the Imam. I think this view is 'apocryphal'.

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#22

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:06 pm

ozmujaheed wrote:
If Misri calendar was created by imam Jafar Sadiq as why do the thnaasheri or Iran not follow calendar to start and finish Ramadan ?
Here no mention of iman Jafar RA is mentioned as creater of Fatemi calendar but credit is given to Imam Ali RA

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabular_Is ... ry_schemes
The Tabular Islamic calendar (an example is the Fatimid or Misri calendar) is a rule-based variation of the Islamic calendar. It has the same numbering of years and months, but the months are determined by arithmetic rules rather than by observation or astronomical calculations. It was developed by early Muslim astronomers of the second hijra century (the 8th century of the Common Era) to provide a predictable time base for calculating the positions of the moon, sun, and planets. It is now used by historians to convert an Islamic date into a Western calendar when no other information (like the day of the week) is available.
It is used by some Muslims in everyday life, particularly in the Dawoodi Bohra Ismaili community and they believe that this calendar was developed by Ali. It is believed by the Dawoodi Bohras that when Ali drew up this calendar, the previous events of the earlier prophets also fell into line with this calendar. It is their firm belief, that all Fatimid Imams and their Da'ees have followed this tradition.
Each year has 12 months. The odd numbered months have 30 days and the even numbered months have 29 days, except in a leap year when the 12th and final month has 30 days.
Tabular calendar was probably devised by early Muslim astronomers and credit to Imams Ali or Jafar is just Riwayats with no Ahadith to support it.

Did Imam Jafar RA knew about International date line?

If brothers poruswalas owned hardware store on 2 islands straddling International date line then both of them will be celebrating Eid on two different days.

Wasalaam

ozmujaheed
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#23

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:46 am

Those who see absolute merit in calendar please explain how Islam would be a just religion?

I have no objection to calendar but you have no right to ridicule the usefulness of moon sighting, unless you are well off bohra .

Imagine It is 1912 ad in the middle of sahara desert, Mauritania a Muslim peasant village , no phones, no communication, a caravan passes once every other month, villagers want to know when Ramadan starts and finish.

How does your ignorant logic help the local imam know when to start ramazan , I have stated they are peasants so they have no sophisticated calendar algorithm, no Misri calendar is mailed , no raza an Saheb ?

How practical is the justification ,

Also this concept of central authority is applicable to a minority community within reach.

If Islam was a global religion how would you accept that for 1400 years a central authority would decide start and finish ramazan across time zones, cultures and spans. Islam created simple ways to practise it's rituals like you see the position of the sun and decide to pray, see the moon start the month ,

The convenience of modernity is good but is not the only way and does not mean the primitive methods are invalid.

Muslim First
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Re: several Muslims will observe a day of fasting after Eid

#24

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:46 am

ozmujaheed wrote:Those who see absolute merit in calendar please explain how Islam would be a just religion?

I have no objection to calendar but you have no right to ridicule the usefulness of moon sighting, unless you are well off bohra .
Agreed
Imagine It is 1912 ad in the middle of sahara desert, Mauritania a Muslim peasant village , no phones, no communication, a caravan passes once every other month, villagers want to know when Ramadan starts and finish.
People followed Ahadith I posted above ( by Muslim First on Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:02 pm )
How does your ignorant logic help the local imam know when to start ramazan , I have stated they are peasants so they have no sophisticated calendar algorithm, no Misri calendar is mailed , no raza an Saheb ?
They followed Quran and Sunnah. Following Sunnah in moon sighting served purpose for 1400 years

How practical is the justification ,

Also this concept of central authority is applicable to a minority community within reach.

If Islam was a global religion how would you accept that for 1400 years a central authority would decide start and finish ramazan across time zones, cultures and spans. Islam created simple ways to practise it's rituals like you see the position of the sun and decide to pray, see the moon start the month ,
It is wrong ti ridicule a section of community who are trying to follow Sunnah of moon sighting.
The convenience of modernity is good but is not the only way and does not mean the primitive methods are invalid. Massachusetts has about 40 Masajids out of that about 5 followed physical moon sighting. They started Ramadan one day late. Completed on same day with others. Of course Bohras followed computed calendar for Egypt. I do not know how many Bohras live in Egypt!