Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspective

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Muslim First
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#31

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:05 pm

My comment has nothing to with do with Shia Hate. It has to do with Quran Aya and Shia reading half Ayaz and half hadithig .

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:10 pm

Hidden God sends messages through an angel (difficult to believe in such in this day and age!)
Probably the reason why it didn't happen in this day and age.
Hidden God sends inspiration through a Hidden Imam (equally unbelievable in this day and age!)
Probably the reason why it doesn't happen in this day and age.
The Taliban justify the attack on this brave girl with reference to Quran and hadith.
Which ayah of the Quran and which hadith have the Taliban quoted to justify this attack? This was the most cowardly and dastardly act not justified by any ayah of the Quran. Do not hide your beat down behind generalisations.

The problem with educated people like porus is that they have come to accept the utter nonsense that they believe in, as such. But they do not counter by trying to prove that it is sense. They simply want to show that everything else is nonsense too. Anyway, that is half the battle won for folks like me. :wink:

Bori85
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#33

Unread post by Bori85 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:44 pm

badrijanab wrote:
anajmi wrote:The fact that the guy communicating with the hidden Imam is a corrupt politician that is looting the people automatically negates the necessity of an infallible Imam. An infallible Imam obviously faltered in selecting a faulty Dai - ergo, he is not infallible which in turn means that the requirement of an infallible Imam is nothing more than a fairy tale.
[*] Some humans are bad, Allah have created them - An infallible Allah obviously faltered in creating faulty humans?!!! ergo, he is not infallible which in turn means that the requirement of an infallible Allah is nothing more than a fairy tale.

[*] Abu Zahal was present in Dawat-a-zul-asheera, heard Rasool Allah s.a.w.w. pitch for Islam, Rasool invited him to convert into Islam. But he declined and died as Kaafir. An infallible Rasool (as per Imam Ghazali) obviously faltered in convincing a family member?!!! ergo, he is not infallible which in turn means that the requirement of an infallible Prophet is nothing more than a fairy tale.

[*] All the family members / Ummaya's that Hazrat Usman appointed as Governors were corrupt and looted common men / Baytul Maal! So by Anajmi's above post token Usman is responsible for all corruption.

Whether that guy is corrupt or honest, whether Imam has appointed him or not, whether he is Dai or not, whether Imam speaks with him or not - IN EITHER CASE, REFER ORIGINAL POST, NECESSITY OF INFALLIABLE IMAM CANNOT BE REFUTED
Even if we agree that Infalliable Imam in every era is a necessity, then going by the meaning of infalliable i.e. incapable of error or utmost sure, it seems the "Infalliable Imam" of our age is not that Infalliable or else the Imam would not talk (in secrecy or in open) to a corrupt Dai. Or it can be the case that Dawoodi Bohras are informed by the Dai that he talks with the Imam in secrecy, and that is all a lie, because an Imam who is incapable of error will not talk to a Dai who has looted his community's money(Baitul Maal) and filled his and his family members Swiss bank accounts. Now the question is what is the Infalliable Imam doing in this era, just watching quietly hidden somewhere in this world, what is all going on in our community. If that is the case then he (Imam) is not doing his job (given to him by Allah) at all.

Peace
Posts: 122
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#34

Unread post by Peace » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:54 am

Dear badrijanab,

There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.
[Translation: Sahih International] ‌[33:21]

My question is again. Is this ayat was revealed for or applicable for that period of time when Prophet Muhammad PBUH was alive?

badrijanab wrote:Thus, due to the fact that the address is to the generality of believers, the existence of someone (i.e. Imam) to whom obedience is obligatory upon the community is necessary so that they may fulfil this duty.
Dont you know that so many divisions have been taken place on the issue of succession (Imamat). That is why you see so many sub sects. Is this generality of believers is intended?
And specially a concept which is very fundamental for you, yet Quran is silent on that.

In my opinion if people take guidance from Quran then there will be less schism. Schism take place when people leave Quran and wander here and there.


badrijanab wrote:
Also please refer to the several other aayat's quoted in the original post. Thanks.
I already answer on my previous post that
Peace wrote:My sincere advice to you kindly read Quran with understandings from beginning to end few times then you will be able to grasp overall msg of Quran, ofcourse if Allah wills.

Rather than following and comprehending ayats (sometimes out of context) which suits your existing beliefs.
After all above points are my understanding. Allah SWT knows better.
May Allah show us and keep us on Siraat-e-Mustqeem and increase our level of Imaan. Ameen.

badrijanab
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#35

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 am

Bori85 wrote:
badrijanab wrote: [*] Some humans are bad, Allah have created them - An infallible Allah obviously faltered in creating faulty humans?!!! ergo, he is not infallible which in turn means that the requirement of an infallible Allah is nothing more than a fairy tale.

[*] Abu Zahal was present in Dawat-a-zul-asheera, heard Rasool Allah s.a.w.w. pitch for Islam, Rasool invited him to convert into Islam. But he declined and died as Kaafir. An infallible Rasool (as per Imam Ghazali) obviously faltered in convincing a family member?!!! ergo, he is not infallible which in turn means that the requirement of an infallible Prophet is nothing more than a fairy tale.

[*] All the family members / Ummaya's that Hazrat Usman appointed as Governors were corrupt and looted common men / Baytul Maal! So by Anajmi's above post token Usman is responsible for all corruption.

Whether that guy is corrupt or honest, whether Imam has appointed him or not, whether he is Dai or not, whether Imam speaks with him or not - IN EITHER CASE, REFER ORIGINAL POST, NECESSITY OF INFALLIABLE IMAM CANNOT BE REFUTED
Even if we agree that Infalliable Imam in every era is a necessity, then going by the meaning of infalliable i.e. incapable of error or utmost sure, it seems the "Infalliable Imam" of our age is not that Infalliable or else the Imam would not talk (in secrecy or in open) to a corrupt Dai. Or it can be the case that Dawoodi Bohras are informed by the Dai that he talks with the Imam in secrecy, and that is all a lie, because an Imam who is incapable of error will not talk to a Dai who has looted his community's money(Baitul Maal) and filled his and his family members Swiss bank accounts. Now the question is what is the Infalliable Imam doing in this era, just watching quietly hidden somewhere in this world, what is all going on in our community. If that is the case then he (Imam) is not doing his job (given to him by Allah) at all.
Bori85,

Do you have any proof that Imam-uz-zaman talks or maintains any relations with Syedina Burhanuddin (tus)?

Please be advised, there is difference between Ithna Asheri & Dawoodi Bohras - former consider their Imam to be hiding i.e. no one knows about him, latter consider their Imam to be in state of CONCEALMENT where he is accessible to his missionaries and selected people - only he is in concealing from his enemies and ordinary member of community.

mnoorani
Posts: 425
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#36

Unread post by mnoorani » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:27 am

[quote="Muslim First"]My comment has nothing to with do with Shia Hate. It has to do with Quran Aya and Shia reading half Ayaz and half hadithig .[/quote
Why are you bothered with what the Shia's read ?
IS not your deep rooted racism against Shia's responsible for this?

badrijanab
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#37

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:59 am

porus wrote: What use is an Imam who is hidden?
Huzoor Porus Janab,
'Hidden' is the concept of Ithna Asheri. Dawoodi Bohras Imam-uz-zaman is in state of concealment, concealing only from his enemies and ordinary members but accessible to all his missionaries and selected people.

porus wrote: The usual answer is that Imam operates by inspiring (through ilhaam) certain individuals who then proceed to have followers. For Bohras, this individual is the Dai. For the Shia, he is a Marja al-taqleed or Mujtahid. This is a matter of belief and such people are identified with what the Quran terms 'ulul amr'.
Ithna Asheri philosphy is that their 12th Imam suddenly vanished and after that no one knows anything about him. So, if they do not know anything about their 12th Imam then their Marja/Ayatullah's cannot get any Ilham from their 12th Imam. Like Hazrat Abu Bakar, Hz. Umar and Hz. Usman are self appointed UNAUTHORIZED religious leaders so are Marja's/Ayatullah's - self appointed UNAUTHORIZED religious leaders.

For Dawoodi Bohras it is NOT necessary only Dai Mutlaq. There are other functionaries and missionaries of Dawat. The situation that we face is not new. During the era of Imam Abdullah Al Mastur a.s., Imam Ahmed Al Mastur a.s. and Imam Hussain Al Mastur a.s. the then mumineen have faced similar situation that we are presently in. But the then also the Imam and his missionaries were working in concealment and presently also they are working likewise. The ulul amr is not any individual but the selected one from Almighty Allah i.e. Imam only and not Marja/Ayatullah's, refer to the original post for this particular point.
porus wrote: If God can guide mankind through a hidden Imam why can't he guide them through a hidden Prophet? Muslims believe that Muhammad got messages delivered from God through an angel. Hidden God sends messages through an angel (difficult to believe in such in this day and age!) Similarly, Hidden God sends inspiration through a Hidden Imam (equally unbelievable in this day and age!)

What is more, the Hidden God sends temptations to lead humans astray through another Hidden entity, the much cursed Shaytan. Whooo!!

Thus, there is no need to debate 'correctness' or 'rightness' of divergent beliefs of Wahhabis and Bohras on this forum. This only invites ridicule from Wahhabis. They are full of arrogance and hubris which allows the luxury, just like abdes, to be ceretain of their version of beliefs. They too believe in Hidden God and Hidden Shaytan. Neither can establish incontrovertible 'proof' for their positions. That it is all in the Quran delivered by a fallible Prophet is no argument. That Quran came from God is a dogma which is accepted by all Muslims on faith. It cannot be proven.

The thing to do is to comment/discuss on Bohra beliefs and ignore Wahhabis altogether. Beliefs are a matter of 'faith'. It is best to respect 'faith' of others but this cannot be expected of Wahhabis.

Luckily, there are not many Wahhabis on this forum. However, we have seen the effect of their constant attacks on beliefs of other Muslims, whom they consider apostates. The little girl, Malala Yousafzai, who is fighting for her life in Pakistan is the latest example of Wahhabi extremism against Muslims. The Taliban justify the attack on this brave girl with reference to Quran and hadith. It is their belief and faith about what the Quran instructs them to do. Care to debate with them?
Huzur Porus Janab, your last quote: very well said, great, thank you.

progticide
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#38

Unread post by progticide » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:44 am

badrijanab wrote:
porus wrote: The usual answer is that Imam operates by inspiring (through ilhaam) certain individuals who then proceed to have followers. For Bohras, this individual is the Dai.
For Dawoodi Bohras it is NOT necessary only Dai Mutlaq. There are other functionaries and missionaries of Dawat.
Correction: For Dawoodi Bohras it is ONLY DAI AL MUTLAQ.

Non-Dawoodi Bohras including reformists should refrain from passing judgemental views and comments on critical and important Dawoodi Bohra doctrines and matters for which they have little or no knowledge and understanding, leave alone faith and belief.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:34 am

dawoodi dawoodi bhai bhai
badri progti na bhai na bhai. :wink:

badrijanab
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#40

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:13 pm

progticide wrote:
badrijanab wrote: For Dawoodi Bohras it is NOT necessary only Dai Mutlaq. There are other functionaries and missionaries of Dawat.
Correction: For Dawoodi Bohras it is ONLY DAI AL MUTLAQ.

Non-Dawoodi Bohras including reformists should refrain from passing judgemental views and comments on critical and important Dawoodi Bohra doctrines and matters for which they have little or no knowledge and understanding, leave alone faith and belief.
Your correction is Incorrect!

LOYALTY, FAITHFULNESS AND RESPECT OF DAWOODI BOHRAS MUMINEEN IS IN ORDER PER the hierarcy below:
I. Nabi
II. Wasi
1. Imam
2. Babul Abwab
3. Huzzat
4. Dai Zazeera
5. Dai Balagh
6. Dai Mutlaq
7. Mazoon
8. Mukasir
9. Sheikh
10. Mulla

Besides above there are secret missionaries of Imam.

Qualifications are laid down for a Dai Mutlaq in the Risalah Al-Mujazah al Kafiyah fi Adab al-Du'at which has been compiled by Syedna Ahmad bin Muhammad Nishapuri.

Syedna Hatim had included it in his celebrated work Tuhfat al-Qulub. So there cannot by any doubt about its authenticity. Also, Syedna Hatim was a Da'i of the period of satr (i.e. when imam is in seclusion ) and the fact that he thought it necessary to include this Risalah on the qualification of a Da'i itself shows that the Da'i must possess all these qualifications even during the period of satr.
Last edited by badrijanab on Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:23 pm

What happenedto mansoos zaadas nkd mkd and others?

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#42

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:25 pm

badrijanab wrote:
porus wrote: What use is an Imam who is hidden?
Huzoor Porus Janab,
'Hidden' is the concept of Ithna Asheri. Dawoodi Bohras Imam-uz-zaman is in state of 'concealment',
bj,

i couldn't bear seeing you getting into all these verbal contortions and semantics and so thought of ending this torture that you are subjecting us and yourself to. i thought you might need some help understanding the english language. after all what are we put on this planet for? to be true humanitarians and help each other, esp. on this forum, right?

here is what the thesaurus has to say on "hidden" and "concealed"

hidden: [hid-n]
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: unseen, secret
Synonyms: QT, abstruse, buried, clandestine, cloaked, close, clouded, concealed, covered, covert, cryptic, dark, disguised, eclipsed, esoteric, hermetic, hermetical, imperceivable, in the dark, indiscernible, invisible, latent, masked, mysterious, mystic, mystical, obscure, occult, out of view, private, recondite, screened, secluded, sequestered, shadowy, shrouded, surreptitious, ulterior, undercover, underground, undetected, undisclosed, unexposed, unknown,

Peace
Posts: 122
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#43

Unread post by Peace » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:26 pm

badrijanab wrote: Your correction is Incorrect!

LOYALTY, FAITHFULNESS AND RESPECT OF DAWOODI BOHRAS MUMINEEN IS IN ORDER PER the hierarcy below:
I. Nabi
II. Wasi
1. Imam
2. Babul Abwab
3. Huzzat
4. Dai Zazeera
5. Dai Balagh
6. Dai Mutlaq
7. Mazoon
8. Mukasir
9. Sheikh
10. Mulla

Besides above there are secret missionaries of Imam.
As I think everyone knows that Sheikh title is given to rich people who have enough money to buy the title, regardless of quality of Imaan (Piety). So you can judge by yourself. Its time for open the eyes and analyze things neutrally and on merit.

badrijanab
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#44

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:28 pm

anajmi wrote:What happenedto mansoos zaadas nkd mkd and others?
These are not the part of official hierachy of Imam.

badrijanab
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#45

Unread post by badrijanab » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Peace wrote:
badrijanab wrote: Your correction is Incorrect!

LOYALTY, FAITHFULNESS AND RESPECT OF DAWOODI BOHRAS MUMINEEN IS IN ORDER PER the hierarcy below:
I. Nabi
II. Wasi
1. Imam
2. Babul Abwab
3. Huzzat
4. Dai Zazeera
5. Dai Balagh
6. Dai Mutlaq
7. Mazoon
8. Mukasir
9. Sheikh
10. Mulla

Besides above there are secret missionaries of Imam.
As I think everyone knows that Sheikh title is given to rich people who have enough money to buy the title, regardless of quality of Imaan (Piety). So you can judge by yourself. Its time for open the eyes and analyze things neutrally and on merit.
Peace, subtract present Kothar from this thread. You will conclude, if you honestly thought: The only logical and correct faith is Bohra Shia.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#46

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:36 pm

progticide wrote: Correction: For Dawoodi Bohras it is ONLY DAI AL MUTLAQ.
correct!

for dawoodi abde bohras even allah or rasul are irrelevant. imams are important only because they can be held up to justify the lavish and extravagant lifestyles of the last 2 dai's and therir families. all past history is so much filth down the drain. after all what the dai does today and is today is the absolute truth and sacrosanct. For Dawoodi Bohras it is ONLY DAI AL MUTLAQ.

su eni niraali shaan chhe...

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#47

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:43 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
badrijanab wrote: Huzoor Porus Janab,
'Hidden' is the concept of Ithna Asheri. Dawoodi Bohras Imam-uz-zaman is in state of 'concealment',
bj,

i couldn't bear seeing you getting into all these verbal contortions and semantics and so thought of ending this torture that you are subjecting us and yourself to. i thought you might need some help understanding the english language. after all what are we put on this planet for? to be true humanitarians and help each other, esp. on this forum, right?

here is what the thesaurus has to say on "hidden" and "concealed"

hidden: [hid-n]
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: unseen, secret
Synonyms: QT, abstruse, buried, clandestine, cloaked, close, clouded, concealed, covered, covert, cryptic, dark, disguised, eclipsed, esoteric, hermetic, hermetical, imperceivable, in the dark, indiscernible, invisible, latent, masked, mysterious, mystic, mystical, obscure, occult, out of view, private, recondite, screened, secluded, sequestered, shadowy, shrouded, surreptitious, ulterior, undercover, underground, undetected, undisclosed, unexposed, unknown,

Peace
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:46 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#48

Unread post by Peace » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:48 pm

badrijanab wrote:
Peace wrote: As I think everyone knows that Sheikh title is given to rich people who have enough money to buy the title, regardless of quality of Imaan (Piety). So you can judge by yourself. Its time for open the eyes and analyze things neutrally and on merit.
Peace, subtract present Kothar from this thread. You will conclude, if you honestly thought: The only logical and correct faith is Bohra Shia.
Dear Ok if I subtract present kothar then still sorry to say you are unable to give substantial arguments to prove fundamental concepts of bohras.
I appreciate your efforts for sharing information on bohras core beliefs. I myself was a Dawoodi Bohra.

Please dont give answers by quoting half ayaats and leaving aside the context and overall meaning.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#49

Unread post by porus » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:02 pm

badrijanab wrote: LOYALTY, FAITHFULNESS AND RESPECT OF DAWOODI BOHRAS MUMINEEN IS IN ORDER PER the hierarcy below:
I. Nabi
II. Wasi
1. Imam
2. Babul Abwab
3. Huzzat
4. Dai Zazeera
5. Dai Balagh
6. Dai Mutlaq
7. Mazoon
8. Mukasir
9. Sheikh
10. Mulla

Besides above there are secret missionaries of Imam.

Qualifications are laid down for a Dai Mutlaq in the Risalah Al-Mujazah al Kafiyah fi Adab al-Du'at which has been compiled by Syedna Ahmad bin Muhammad Nishapuri.

Syedna Hatim had included it in his celebrated work Tuhfat al-Qulub. So there cannot by any doubt about its authenticity. Also, Syedna Hatim was a Da'i of the period of satr (i.e. when imam is in seclusion ) and the fact that he thought it necessary to include this Risalah on the qualification of a Da'i itself shows that the Da'i must possess all these qualifications even during the period of satr.
Badrijanab saheb,

My understanding is that the hierarchy during kashf was:

1. Imam
2. Bab ul-Abwab
3. Hujjat (25 in number)
4. Dai al-Balagh
5. Dai al-Jazeera

The Bohra dogma maintained that only the Bab and 25 Hujjats are in hiding/concealment with the Imam.

During satr, offices of Dai al-Balagh and Dai al-Jazeera were eliminated and the new hierarchy was established as follows:

1. Dai al-Mutlaq
2. Mazoon
3. Mukasir
4. Shaikh
5. Mulla

The new hierarchy is elaborated in Sayedna Hatim's 'tuhfat al-quloob'. Apparently, there is an English translation of 'tuhfat al-quloob' called 'Gulzaar-e-Dawoodi for the Bohras of India'. The translation was by a reformist Miyabhai Mulla Abdulhussein. It has apparently been 'concealed'.

seeker110
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#50

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:16 pm

Oh what a tagled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive..............................Scott

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#51

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:07 pm

badrijanab wrote: For Dawoodi Bohras it is NOT necessary only Dai Mutlaq. There are other functionaries and missionaries of Dawat.
Who are the OTHER functionaries and missionaries of dawat who have a rapport with the hidden Imam ??

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#52

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:51 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
badrijanab wrote: For Dawoodi Bohras it is NOT necessary only Dai Mutlaq. There are other functionaries and missionaries of Dawat.
Who are the OTHER functionaries and missionaries of dawat who have a rapport with the hidden Imam ??
the dai's family, i.e. the zaadas, zaadis and even their non-baaligh kids. when the recently departed zaada hoze' could communicate with his bro the mansoos from the grave and later from jannat surrounded by the panjatan, then what can hinder these divine beings from having regular rapport with the 'concealed', not 'hidden' imam, who is alive and hiding in plain sight?

Bori85
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#53

Unread post by Bori85 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:55 pm

Bori85,

Do you have any proof that Imam-uz-zaman talks or maintains any relations with Syedina Burhanuddin (tus)?

Please be advised, there is difference between Ithna Asheri & Dawoodi Bohras - former consider their Imam to be hiding i.e. no one knows about him, latter consider their Imam to be in state of CONCEALMENT where he is accessible to his missionaries and selected people - only he is in concealing from his enemies and ordinary member of community.[/quote]

Mr.Badrijanab,

I don't know why are you asking me for a proof , I had clearly said in my post that just for the sake of argument , if we "agree"[/u] that there is an Infalliable Imam in this era, then obviously that Imam doesn't communicate with the present Dai (self proclaimed Dai al Mutlaq), so again I am repeating my word, that the Infalliable Imam ( if he ever exists) is doing nothing to stop all this nonsense going on in DB community.

Bori85
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#54

Unread post by Bori85 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:02 pm

[quote="porus"][quote="badrijanab"]

Besides above there are secret missionaries of Imam.

1. Imam
2. Bab ul-Abwab
3. Hujjat (25 in number)
4. Dai al-Balagh
5. Dai al-Jazeera

The Bohra dogma maintained that only the Bab and 25 Hujjats are in hiding/concealment with the Imam.

During satr, offices of Dai al-Balagh and Dai al-Jazeera were eliminated and the new hierarchy was established as follows:

1. Dai al-Mutlaq
2. Mazoon
3. Mukasir
4. Shaikh
5. Mulla

The new hierarchy is elaborated in Sayedna Hatim's 'tuhfat al-quloob'. Apparently, there is an English translation of 'tuhfat al-quloob' called 'Gulzaar-e-Dawoodi for the Bohras of India'. The translation was by a reformist Miyabhai Mulla Abdulhussein. It has apparently been 'concealed'.[/quote


Mr Porus,
Sorry I have deleted half of your post here because I just have a question on the last statement of your post, "It has apparently been 'concealed'", can you let us know the English Translation is "concealed" by whom? and the reason behind it being concealed.

humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#55

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:59 am

badrijanab wrote:'Hidden' is the concept of Ithna Asheri. Dawoodi Bohras Imam-uz-zaman is in state of concealment, concealing only from his enemies and ordinary members but accessible to all his missionaries and
Who are the enemies in today’s time ?

Why concealment from ordinary believers ?

Who are the missioneries, and how would a common believer know if the missionary is from the true Imam ?

What is the difference between Hidden and Concealed ?

badrijanab
Posts: 809
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#56

Unread post by badrijanab » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:07 am

Bori85 wrote: Mr.Badrijanab,

I had clearly said in my post that just for the sake of argument , if we "agree"[/u] that there is an Infalliable Imam in this era, then obviously that Imam doesn't communicate with the present Dai (self proclaimed Dai al Mutlaq), so again I am repeating my word, that the Infalliable Imam ( if he ever exists) is doing nothing to stop all this nonsense going on in DB community.


Bayt-ul-maal (public property) was openly looted by almost all governors; who were family members of Hz. Usman - Has Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. axed those governors head with Zulfiquar or made public rallies against them or Usman? No. But when situation changed to Mola Ali a.s. favour i.e. he came to Caliphate he took back all the bribes/looted property from Usman relatives/governors and deposited/distributed to Baytul-maal/public.

Imam Bakir a.s., Imam Sadik a.s., Imam Ismail a.s., Imam Mohammed bin Ismail a.s., Imam Abdullah Al Mastur a.s., Imam Ahmed Al Mastur and Imam Hussain Al Mastur - all patiently tolerated the evils of Abbasi Caliphs and remained in state of concealing. When situation changed, they imposed the law of Shariyat-a-Mohammadi on Egypt, Syria, Italy, Spain, Saudi Arabia, Lebnon, Israil, Palstine, etc.

Likewise, presently Imam-uz-zaman is following the way of his forefathers i.e. when situation is adverse keep 'Taqiya', remain in concealment and secretly run Dawat like done by: Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s., Imam Bakir a.s., Imam Sadik a.s., etc

humanbeing
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#57

Unread post by humanbeing » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:39 am

badrijanab wrote:Likewise, presently Imam-uz-zaman is following the way of his forefathers i.e. when situation is adverse keep 'Taqiya', remain in concealment and secretly run Dawat like done by: Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s., Imam Bakir a.s., Imam Sadik a.s., etc etc
How does this adverse situation ever change ? There is going to be corruption all the time, it has been happening since time unknown. So does it mean Imams are going to remain concealed or hidden, moreover how do you claim that all Imams concealed themselves. In my knowledge its only the Mastur Imams that went into seclusion for a very obvious reason which is threat to their lives for 200 odd years. Now its almost more than 800 years. How do you think situation is going to change ?

Fateh
Posts: 303
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#58

Unread post by Fateh » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:04 am

Yes i am totaly agreed with humanbeing each & every era from Adam(a.s.) to today shaitan is present .With out presence of shaitan how can you identify sadhu?Aur fatemid era mein bhi kaha her Imam ke jamane mein ek si situation rahi hai,sunni ,turk,isai aur yahudi se jung to jari hi raha tha.Aur us waqt mein to war karana asan tha abhi to ye asam bhi nahi hai,to Imam ko concealed rahene ki jarurat kya hai?Abhi hi sachi jarurat hai unaki,agar hum db hi haq rah per hai to kyun jahur nahi hote hai? paisa bhi hamare dai ne bahot ikkatha kar liya hai,hamari hi masjide hai ,Agar hamari qoum me wo jahur ho jaye to kisi ko kya taklif ho sakti hai,aur agar hai bhi to unaki bala se jaise abhi ek bhi dusara firka hamare dai ko nahi manata to db ko kya farak padata hai vaise agar Imam ko na manenge to hume kya faraka padega?Agar huq na Imam jahur ho jaye to hume to ye corrupt system se chhutakara mil jayega.

progticide
Posts: 469
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#59

Unread post by progticide » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:44 am

Repeat: For Dawoodi Bohras it is ONLY DAI AL MUTLAQ.

Since all the preceding ranks upto the Bab al Abwab are also in seclusion along with the Imam, hence they are equally inaccessible as the Imamuz zaman to the ordinary Dawoodi Bohras including Dawat functionaries under the Dai Al Mutlaq. The absolute authority for the Dawat function is delegated to the Dai Al Mutlaq during the period of Satr, and the Dai Al Mutlaq holds complete spiritual and temporal authority in the matters of the Dawat and its subjects. Hence, there is no question of any other functionary who can supercede the authority of the Dai Al Mutlaq during the period of Satr of the Imam. And it is also abundantly clear for the Dawoodi Bohras, that the Dai Al Mutlaq will be the sole authority for verification of the True Imam when Imamuz zaman decides to end Satr. For more reading on this point, please read the topic: The True Imam - How would you verify? debated extensively on this forum.

Non-Dawoodi Bohras including reformists should refrain from passing judgemental views and comments on critical and important Dawoodi Bohra doctrines and matters for which they have little or no knowledge and understanding, leave alone faith and belief.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#60

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:51 am

Imam in concealment is a fairy tale like monsters in the closet. Remember the famous story from sholay?

door gaanw me jab bachcha raat ko rota hai to maa kehti hai beta soja. Soja nahin to gabbar singh aa jayega. That is the status of the Imam today. To scare bohras into emptying their pockets and doing what the Dai commands. In other words ... to go to sleep.
Bayt-ul-maal (public property) was openly looted by almost all governors; who were family members of Hz. Usman - Has Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. axed those governors head with Zulfiquar or made public rallies against them or Usman? No. But when situation changed to Mola Ali a.s. favour i.e. he came to Caliphate he took back all the bribes/looted property from Usman relatives/governors and deposited/distributed to Baytul-maal/public.
So who was the Imam during the time of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman? Apparently, Imam Ali, had to wait for his turn to resolve the issues, so he couldn't be the Imam during those times correct? What badrijanab unknowingly, presents is not this "Imamat" but a normal governmental process. The next ruler making changes to the things done by the previous ruler. It happens even in todays day and age. During the time of Bush, Barack was the Imam and during the time of Barack, either Barack will remain the Imam or Mitt Romney will be the Imam. Atleast, these Imams are visible taking issues head on instead of a useless hiding Imam.