Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspective

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progticide
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#61

Unread post by progticide » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:03 am

anajmi wrote: So who was the Imam during the time of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman? Apparently, Imam Ali, had to wait for his turn to resolve the issues, so he couldn't be the Imam during those times correct?
Kamzarf Mushriq O Munafiq,
Have already humiliated you on the topic "Authority" under section "Islam Today". Here's an extract from that topic:
anajmi wrote:Hazrat Ali was reporting to them, and then succeeded them as number 4.

So what anajmi is suggesting is that:

1. Prophet(SAWW) passed the authority to Maula Ali. Thereby Maula Ali, as per the authority invested in him by the Prophet(SAWW) became the authority over the muslim ummah.

2. Besides this, Maula Ali decided to report into the first 3 Khalifas.

3. Since the authority was held by Maula Ali, his action of reporting to the 3 Khalifas, made the 3 khalifas genuine khalifas of the Muslims, by virtue of the authority invested by the Prophet(SAWW) in Maula Ali.

4. It is like saying, using analogy again to explain to the members clearly: "A", which is a government organisation, has provided electricity supply connection to "B" which is another government department through an official agreement. Therefore, B is a legal and qualified consumer of the electricity connection from A. Some private companies namely X, Y and Z have inserted their private connections into the power lines going to B's electric meter box. From the private connections now established by X, Y & Z, many other discreet and unknown companies have also diverted supply by using their own private circuit connected to that of X, Y & Z. When questioned with what authority or whose authorisation did X, Y & Z diverted power supply from A on its way to B, the argument given by X, Y & Z was that although they did not have any agreement with A on the use of the power supply given to B, since X, Y & Z were involved in regular business dealings with B and B was also their non-salaried consultant and therefore by virtue of social and business dealings with B, everything belonging to B including the electric power supply provided by A, was open to utilisation/exploitation by X, Y & Z. This logic therefore makes X, Y & Z as "Deemed" consumers of A, albiet without any formal agreement or authorisation from A. As well as all the bills for the electric supply consumption shall also be paid by B, since the connection is taken in the name of B, and no records exist in the name of X, Y & Z in the consumer database of A. And thus, by this logic, the agents of X, Y & Z spread the propogande that the consumers for electric company A shall be in the order:


X - 1st consumer. No bill generation required. Bill to be paid by B.
Y -2nd consumer. No bill generation required. Bill to be paid by B
Z - 3rd consumer. No bill generation required. Bill to be paid by B
B - 4th consumer. All bills and liabilities to be paid by B.


B's contention on remaining silent and not removing the illegal connections of X, Y & Z - "If I remove the illegal connections of these 3, then hundreds of thousands of other connections, although illegal too, drawing supply from these 3 would be rendered without electricity into complete darkness in this long dark night;, so for the sake of these hundreds of thousands of people and their children let the three illegal connections remain. My company shall pay the bills and liabilities during this long dark night, and seek our justice when the light dawns and the Officer on Special Duty arrives and each would be summoned to the court to account for their illegal connections and power consumption."
Last edited by progticide on Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#62

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:05 am

Since there was no electricity at that time this analogy does not apply. However, if there was electricity, then this analogy would go like this

X,Y and Z have full authority from B. Besides, X,Y and Z did a lot of development work which was ruined by the employees and "lovers" of B.

progticide
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#63

Unread post by progticide » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:07 am

anajmi wrote: X,Y and Z have full authority from B.
The power of attorney/authorisation by A in favour of B dated 18th of Dhu al-Hijjah of 10 AH in the Islamic calendar (March 10, 632 AD) at a place called Ghadir Khumm and formally registered in the records of Allah in the book named Al Quran Majid, chapter 5, verse 3 (Holy Quran 5:3). Besides, copies of the complete text of the agreement available in the record books of all parties even today.

Kindly provide the details of the date, place and copy of the agreement between B & X/Y/Z and the reference of the deed Registration.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#64

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:18 am

Read the history books. You can also read the Quran ayah 5:3, 5:5, 24:17, 5:55, 4:6. But do not read the full ayahs as full ayahs normally do not make sense to idiots. Take 2 words from here and 4 words from there and you will have the proof that X, Y and Z have the authority from A,B and C.

progticide
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#65

Unread post by progticide » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:19 am

anajmi wrote:Read the history books.
Kamzarf Mushriq o Munafiq,
Jab tere baap, aur tere baap ke baap aur uske baap ke baap.....going back 1400 years....koi agreement ka record nahi pesh kar paaye, toh tu kahan se layega.....Baap na maari mendki, aur beta tirandaaz.

Phir bhi ek aur chance deta hu tujhe...

Kindly provide the details of the date, place and copy of the agreement between B & X/Y/Z and the reference of the deed Registration.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#66

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:47 am

Read the history books. You can also read the Quran ayah 5:3, 5:5, 24:17, 5:55, 4:6. But do not read the full ayahs as full ayahs normally do not make sense to idiots. Take 2 words from here and 4 words from there and you will have the proof that X, Y and Z have the authority from A,B and C.

It doesn't matter how much you idiots whine, the fact remains. The prophet (saw) was succeeded by Hazrat Abu Bakr, who was succeeded by Hazrat Umar who was succeeded by Hazrat Uthman who was then succeeded by Hazrat Ali. Ali worshippers are going through hoops and bounds to erase this piece of history which they will never be able to do. You can bring in Enron and all its electricians but this fact is not going to change. What this means in turn is that the appointment of Ali as the successor of the prophet (saw) by Allah and the prophet (saw), is nothing but a fairy tale. Nothing can happen against the will of Allah. So if Allah willed Ali to follow the prophet (saw), then he would have. But he didn't!!

seeker110
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#67

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:44 pm

Some theories are not wise on the Bohra Sites. This flock doesn't fly the wahabi route.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#68

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:46 pm

This flock is flucked if the only other route it can see is the wahhabi route. As the saying goes, out of the kadambosi into the wahhabi. :wink:

seeker110
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#69

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:01 pm

To each his own. I still feel good when ever I hear 'Shah ast Hussain, Badshah ast.........

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#70

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:32 pm

That is the reason why they sing it in the first place. Keep listening to Shah ast Hussain and keep your mouths shut.

pheonix
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#71

Unread post by pheonix » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:03 am

anajmi wrote:That is the reason why they sing it in the first place. Keep listening to Shah ast Hussain and keep your mouths shut.
Hush Rabid Taliban Hush

porus
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#72

Unread post by porus » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:04 pm

Peace wrote: Please dont give answers by quoting half ayaats and leaving aside the context and overall meaning.
It is good that you insist that ayats should be quoted with reference to context.

However, be mindful of the fact that the Quran we have today was edited after the death of the Prophet. There are instances in the Quran where an 'ayat' comprises unrelated revelations. In that case, it is admissible to quote the part of the 'ayat' that was revealed on its own.

Peace
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#73

Unread post by Peace » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:12 pm

porus wrote:
Peace wrote: Please dont give answers by quoting half ayaats and leaving aside the context and overall meaning.
It is good that you insist that ayats should be quoted with reference to context.

However, be mindful of the fact that the Quran we have today was edited after the death of the Prophet. There are instances in the Quran where an 'ayat' comprises unrelated revelations. In that case, it is admissible to quote the part of the 'ayat' that was revealed on its own.
Dear Porus,

It is not logical for me to think that Quran is edited. A book which is Criterion for truth and falsehood, and if book is not dependable than how will you get the hidaya?

Through Imam? Which is more controversial issue. I reckon you very well know the history.

If your answer is Imam. Then please let us know your Imam and if he is in seclusion than who is his representative? And and on wht grounds u have choosen him?

As per you, where is the original version of Quran?

How do you translate verse 9 of 15th Surah?

porus
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#74

Unread post by porus » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:59 pm

Peace wrote: It is not logical for me to think that Quran is edited. A book which is Criterion for truth and falsehood, and if book is not dependable than how will you get the hidaya?

.....
How do you translate verse 9 of 15th Surah?
It is very clear that Quran was edited. Different fragments were compiled into one book during Uthman's Khilafa.

The sequence is not in order of revelation. I am not even clear who is responsible for splitting the Quran into Suras. There is a belief among Sunnis that the complete Quran as compiled by Prophet was in possession of Hafsa, ummul mumineen. If so, why was not that published unchanged?

There has been continuous editing of Quran throughout history. Numbering of suras and ayats of the Quran came much later than its compilation. I'rab and wuqoof signs were introduced even later. That is why we have disagreements among scholars of the Quran.

As far as interpretation is concerned, I take responsibility for interpretation for myself. I learn from scholars and decide whose interpretation is most acceptable to me . Once I settle on an interpretation, it then becomes my interpretation. It may be the same as that of others or it may be my own. However, that does require years of study.

I take 15:9 to mean that God declares that He has the Quran under his protection. While you may think it means that it refers to the Quran you have in your hands, I personally feel that God is saying that His guidance will always be available. (Some scholars believe that the Quran is protected as Loh-e-Mahfuz somewhere in the 'skies'. I find that claim to be incredulous). The book (the Quran) as we know it today is not useful as guidance to the majority of Muslims because it is in a language both foreign and ancient. However, those who need the guidance will be able to get it somehow. That is God's promise.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#75

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:24 pm

The placement of every ayah within the surahs and the placement of the surahs within the Quran was as ordered by Allah through Jibraeel (as). Sunnis believe that the the Jibraeel (as) has walked through the order of the Quran with the prophet (saw) at least twice during his lifetime. And I believe that to be absolutely correct as stated in 15:9. The one way to guide is through a book and if even that is at fault then how is one supposed to receive guidance?
The book (the Quran) as we know it today is not useful as guidance to the majority of Muslims because it is in a language both foreign and ancient.
Actually, a majority of the muslims have received guidance solely from the book. Those who choose not to receive guidance from the book are dependent upon fake infallible Dais and Imams for their guidance and are taken for a ride as it is clear from the state of the Dawoodi Bohras today. Consider the irony of this assertion that it is in a language foreign and ancient by someone who actually pretends to understand the language of the Quran and claims his own interpretation to be the right one. Allah says in the Quran that it is revealed in Arabic to make it easy to understand. Allah also says that guidance is received only with the will of Allah. Otherwise, those with the knowledge of the language wouldn't have been left in the state of "Dhal"!!
Some scholars believe that the Quran is protected as Loh-e-Mahfuz somewhere in the 'skies'
No scholar says that it is somewhere in the 'skies'. Scholars say that Lo-e-Mahfuz is safe with Allah himself. People make ridiculous claims and then claim them to be ridiculous.
That is why we have disagreements among scholars of the Quran.
This disagreement doesn't affect the interpretation of any ayah of the Quran. The differences in interpretations have nothing to do with the I'rab and wuqoof signs. If it does, then please provide the proof. This has been discussed a dozen times before without any evidence being provided. It is time you stop making these false allegations.

Peace
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#76

Unread post by Peace » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:35 pm

Peace wrote: If your answer is Imam. Then please let us know your Imam and if he is in seclusion than who is his representative? And and on wht grounds u have choosen him?

As per you, where is the original version of Quran?
@Porus
Thank you for your answer.

Please give remaining two questions' answer. If there is no problem in sharing your personal views.

I heard 2 views on Quran's compilation. 1st one is, as wht u have told and 2nd one is that Quran is compiled during the life time of Prophet Muhammad specially the order of ayats and surahs. If I am not wrong.

However, Allah SWT knows better.
You can say I am a biginner in Islam

But It is again not logical for me that if Quran is not in proper form then Muslim ummah will be in more chaos than right now it is. Then everyone will be able take meanings in a much much more extremist way (just on focusing chunks of ayats related to his beliefs/likings). It will be more chaotic. And some will be able to limit ayat on as few words as possible, again to get support for their beliefs. Then schisms in Muslim ummah will be virtually endless and corrupt people will take its advantage.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#77

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:36 pm

However, those who need the guidance will be able to get it somehow. That is God's promise.
99.99% of muslims or maybe even more, can read the Quran either in Arabic or through transliterations. Some make the effort to read translations and interpretations. However, if Allah's promise is to guide those who deserve guidance, somehow, then it doesn't matter if the book is in an ancient or foreign language. Just the effort will lead one to Allah's guidance. So hold onto the Quran as the word of Allah and you will recieve guidance even if you never ever study the Arabic language. Even porus agrees with that!!

porus
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#78

Unread post by porus » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:43 pm

Peace wrote: If your answer is Imam. Then please let us know your Imam and if he is in seclusion than who is his representative? And and on wht grounds u have choosen him?
I already gave you the answer. I follow my own interpretation. However, I do consider opinions of all whose writing is in public domain, time permitting.
Peace wrote: As per you, where is the original version of Quran?
The Quran we have is agreed by Muslims to be the 'original' version of the Quran. What they mean is that they believe it to be the set of complete revelations. Despite that, we have disagreements on the interpretation.

Whether the Quran we have is exactly as revealed to the Prophet is for me a question mark? Hafsa's Quran, if it existed at all, is no longer available. The Quran we have is the one that was compiled was from collection of records and memories of extant huffaz.

Umar had suggested to Abu Bakr that Quran should be compiled because many of the huffaz were killed at the battle of Yamamah. We do not know what Quran did these huffaz commit to memory. If the huffaz were available during Uthman's time, why was it necessary to assemble fragments?

'Compilation of the Quran' is now a very complex topic of interest only to scholars in the Western world. Muslim world by and large has shoved the entire issue under the carpet.

Quran is, for all practical purposes, not a book of guidance for ordinary Muslims. When did you last open the book for guidance? It is of use to Jurists who need to consider finer points of Shariat. Most Muslims rely on guidance from their religious elders and leaders. Whether they are giving true guidance according to the Quran is a question you may wish to ponder.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#79

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:00 pm

When did you last open the book for guidance?
Actually, anyone (muslim) who is seeking guidance from God directly, opens the Quran. When a muslim is in trouble, he opens the Quran, when he is happy and wants to thank God, he opens the Quran, when he is lost (not the kind of lost that happens through iOS Maps), he opens the Quran. When his family is sick he opens the Quran, when he is looking for a job, he opens the Quran. One needs to understand that he doesn't open the Quran to figure out where job openings are. If you had understood that, you wouldn't be making these idiotic statements.

You may not have opened the Quran for guidance and that is probably the reason why you are lost. People who pray 5 times a day, read the quran for guidance. This guidance is a way to jannah and protection from the issues that we face on a daily basis, and not to the mall, which is probably what you are thinking!!

And the best thing is, you don't even need to know the ancient and foreign language to seek guidance from the Quran!!

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#80

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:31 pm

We do not know what Quran did these huffaz commit to memory.
Actually, we do. That is the beauty of the Quran. Not all huffaz memorized the Quran directly from the prophet (saw). They memorized it from each other without the benefit of a book. This has gone on since the time of the prophet (saw) till today. The book didn't confirm what the huffaz had memorized. The huffaz confirmed what was collected in the book. The way letters are pronounced, the way the Quran is recited, all that is not in the book. It has been passed down from person to person directly. Hazrat Uthman didn't just take fragments as has been misunderstood. He collected the book from everywhere and validated every single ayah/surah of the Quran from various people before putting it in a book. He did his due diligence. Even if he had never created the book, we would've had huffaz with the full Quran in their hearts. The book itself was just a back up. If the ayahs had been jumbled up, the huffaz would've corrected them.

Consider the 5 infallibles. Was Hazrat Ali actively working in creating/compiling a Quran after one was compiled by Hazrat Uthman? No. Were Imam Hassan or Imam Hussain involved in revising the Quran? No. Even if we are to consider them as infallibles, we can safely conclude that since there is no record of them working on the Quran, infact they were too busy fighting the establishment instead of creating the "good" copy of the Quran, we can safely conclude that the Quran available at that the time was the same as what the prophet (saw) had taught them, and hence is the same Quran that is available to us today. Besides, we do not need a stamp from any human about the correctness of the Quran. Allah has promised its preservation.

There is a hadith about a sahabi visiting the prophet (saw) and finding him in prayer. The sahabi decided to join the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) recited surah baqara and then started surah Ale Imraan in the same rakat. The sahabi found it difficult to continue and left. This shows that the surah baqara and surah Ale Imraan already existed during the time of the prophet (saw).
There are instances in the Quran where an 'ayat' comprises unrelated revelations.
If you look closely at these unrelated revelations, all of them have one and only one theme. The glorification of humans. You won't find any other example of unrelated revelations from our friends. For eg. a portion of 33:33 is in the wrong place, a portion of 5:3 is in the wrong place. But this is wrong because it causes issues with these people's interpretation of the Quran and the History of Islam. Since this view doesn't come with an unbiased opinion, it can be rejected.
Last edited by anajmi on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#81

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:17 pm

There is another catch to this assumption about ayahs having being accumulated haphazardly. The contention that the prophet (saw) is infallible because he delivered the Quran as is from Allah goes down the drain as the Quran we have is jumbled up. The other contention that the prophet (saw) could read and write and yet chose not to compile the Quran himself also doesn't make sense. If portions of the ayahs can be jumbled up by humans then what would prevent the words also from being jumbled up? or addition or subtraction of words? Hence if we assume that the Quran is not in the pristine condition as intended by Allah and his prophet (saw), then the prophet (saw) is not infallible. If we choose to blame other humans for this condition of the Quran, then what was the purpose behind the prophet's infallibility?

Hence it is safe to assume that a jumbled up Quran implies a fallible prophet (saw). Hence the interpretation of 33:33 is faulty.

anajmi
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#82

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:57 am

Quran is, for all practical purposes, not a book of guidance for ordinary Muslims.
Consider the first few ayahs of the Surah Baqara

ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

2:2 This (That) book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the muttaqeen.

As Allah has made very clear right at the beginning of the book, it is a guidance for the muttaqeen. Those with taqwa. Those who do not have taqwa, do not receive any guidance from it. This has been proven right here on this board in this very thread by porus. He claims to have and collected all translations of the Quran and read them all, time permitting, but claims to have received no guidance from the book. Now, we all know that he has no taqwa, he is not a believer, he ridicules the faith of those that believe. Who are the ones who have taqwa? Allah clarifies in the next few ayahs

2:3 Who believe in [the existence of] that which is beyond the reach of human perception, and are constant in prayer, and spend on others out of what We provide for them as sustenance;
2:4 And who believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon thee, [O Prophet,] as well as in that which was bestowed before thy time: for it is they who in their innermost are certain of the life to come!

Hence, those who receive guidance from the book are those who meet the above criteria. And the most beautiful thing is that ancient and foreign Arabic is not listed in the criteria.

Muslim First
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#83

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:01 am

Without going into long refutation of Br porus's post, please consider following:

Die hard Shias have always believed there was some hanky panky with Quran by usurpers of rights of Ahl e Bait. This belief is still prevailing among Shia of all divisions. Br porus has mild case of Doubt. If you go to Ismaili.com and read a thread 'Is Quran complete" you will find that a farmaan of 48the Imam which roughly says "there were 40 chapters of Qur'an and he is in possession of those 10, and it will take him few years to write it down and give it to his Murids". Alas, Allah took him before he penned even a single word.

Shias are still in “Taqiya”.

Let me raise few points
After Gadhir, Why Hz Ali was not accorded status like His holiness Mansoos now enjoys. He leads prayers, make decisions for Maulana Dai etc.
Why after Prophet's Wafat everybody forgot that Prophet had declared Hz Ali as his successor at Gadhir?
Hz Ali led Umma for six years. Why did he not correct corrupted Qur'an?

These are enough for now.

Muslim First
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#84

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:04 pm

When was the Quran compiled and made into a book?
Google
One of answer from ask Yahoo

The Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel, and the Prophet subsequently memorized the whole scripture.

Thousands of the Companions of the Prophet learned the Qur'an directly from the Prophet (pbuh). They memorized it and were known in Islamic history as huffaadh (the memorizers and preservers of the Qur'an). Moreover, a number of Companions wrote it down during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and it was compiled in its entirety immediately after his death.

The entire Qur’an was written down during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, and trusting the fact that many scholars knew it by heart, it was not collected in one volume. It was personally arranged by him, and the Muslims memorized it in the same order.

During the rule of the first Caliph Abu Bakr, there was a rebellion among some distant Arab tribes that resulted in a series of fierce battles. In one particular battle, a number Companions who had memorized the Qur’an were killed. The Companion Omar worried that the knowledge of the Qur’an was in danger, thus he convinced Abu Bakr that the Qur’an should be compiled into book form as a means of preserving it once and for all.

Zayd bin Thabit was entrusted with this important task. Zayd followed strict methods in his compilation and had dozens of other huffaadh recheck his work to ensure its accuracy. Abu Bakr, who had also committed the entire Qur’an to memory, approved of the final product. After Abu Bakr passed away, the copy was passed to the Caliph ‘Omar, and then Uthman.

However as the Muslim world expanded into lands where the people spoke Arabic as a second language, the new Muslims had a difficult time learning the correct pronunciation of the text. The Caliph Uthman consulted other Companions, and they agreed that official copies of the Qur’an should be inscribed using only the pronunciation of the Quraysh tribe, the Arabic dialect that the Prophet spoke.

Zayd bin Thabit was again given this assignment, and three other huffaadh were assigned to help him in the task. Together, the four scribes borrowed the original, complete copy of the Qur’an, duplicated it manually many times over, and then distributed them to all of the major Muslim cities within the empire. Two of these copies still exist today: one is in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent.

for more
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sate

Muslim First
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#85

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:08 pm

So brother porus and co. Are questioning integrity of these 4 huffas!!!!!

Muslim First
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Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#86

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:54 am

progticide wrote:
anajmi wrote: X,Y and Z have full authority from B.
The power of attorney/authorisation by A in favour of B dated 18th of Dhu al-Hijjah of 10 AH in the Islamic calendar (March 10, 632 AD) at a place called Ghadir Khumm and formally registered in the records of Allah in the book named Al Quran Majid, chapter 5, verse 3 (Holy Quran 5:3). Besides, copies of the complete text of the agreement available in the record books of all parties even today.

Kindly provide the details of the date, place and copy of the agreement between B & X/Y/Z and the reference of the deed Registration.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer
http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/ibnkathir/


Allah said,

(This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.) This, indeed, is the biggest favor from Allah to this Ummah, for He has completed their religion for them, and they, thus, do not need any other religion or any other Prophet except Muhammad . This is why Allah made Muhammad the Final Prophet and sent him to all humans and Jinn. Therefore, the permissible is what he allows, the impermissible is what he prohibits, the Law is what he legislates and everything that he conveys is true and authentic and does not contain lies or contradictions. Allah said;

(And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice,) meaning, it is true in what it conveys and just in what it commands and forbids. When Allah completed the religion for Muslims, His favor became complete for them as well. Allah said,

(This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.) meaning, accept Islam for yourselves, for it is the religion that Allah likes and which He chose for you, and it is that with which He sent the best of the honorable Messengers and the most glorious of His Books. Ibn Jarir recorded that Harun bin `Antarah said that his father said, "When the Ayah,

(This day, I have perfected your religion for you...) was revealed, during the great day of Hajj (the Day of `Arafah, the ninth day of Dhul-Hijjah) `Umar cried. The Prophet said, `What makes you cry' He said, `What made me cry is that our religion is being perfected for us. Now it is perfect, nothing is perfect, but it is bound to deteriorate.' The Prophet said,

(You have said the truth.)'' What supports the meaning of this Hadith is the authentic Hadith,

(Islam was strange in its beginning and will return strange once more. Therefore, Tuba for the strangers.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Tariq bin Shihab said, "A Jewish man said to `Umar bin Al-Khattab, `O Leader of the Believers! There is a verse in your Book, which is read by all of you (Muslims), and had it been revealed to us, we would have taken that day (on which it was revealed) as a day of celebration.' `Umar bin Al-Khattab asked, `Which is that verse' The Jew replied, s

(This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you...) `Umar replied, `By Allah! I know when and where this verse was revealed to Allah's Messenger . It was the evening on the Day of `Arafah on a Friday.''' Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith through Al-Hasan bin As-Sabbah from Ja`far bin `Awn. Muslim, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. In the narration collected by Al-Bukhari in the book of Tafsir, through Tariq, he said, "The Jews said to `Umar, `By Allah! There is a verse that is read by all of you (Muslims), and had it been revealed to us, we would have taken that day (on which it was revealed) as a day of celebration.' `Umar said, `By Allah! I know when and where this verse was revealed and where the Messenger of Allah was at that time. It was the day of `Arafah, and I was at `Arafah, by Allah.'' Sufyan (one of the narrators) doubted if Friday was mentioned in this narration. Sufyan's confusion was either because he was unsure if his teacher included this statement in the Hadith or not. Otherwise, if it was because he doubted that the particular day during the Farewell Hajj was a Friday, it would be a mistake that could not and should not have come from someone like Sufyan Ath-Thawri. The fact that it was a Friday, is agreed on by the scholars of Sirah and Fiqh. There are numerous Hadiths that support this fact that are definitely authentic and of the Mutawatir type. This Hadith was also reported from `Umar through various chains of narration.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#87

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:44 am

Muhammad Asad's comment on 5:3

[CLOSE WINDOW]


Note 10 (Quran Ref: 5:3 )
According to all available Traditions based on the testimony of the Prophet's contemporaries, the above passage - which sets, as it were, a seal on the message of the Qur'an - was revealed at `Arafat in the afternoon of Friday, the 9th of Dhu 'l-Hijjah, 10 H., eighty-one or eighty-two days before the death of the Prophet. No legal injunction whatsoever was revealed after this verse: and this explains the reference to God's having perfected the Faith and bestowed the full measure of His blessings upon the believers. Man’s self-surrender (islam) to God is postulated as the basis, or the basic law, of all true religion (din): This self-surrender expresses: itself not only in belief in Him but also in obedience to His commands: and this is the reason why the announcement of the completion of the Qur'anic message is placed within the context of a verse containing the last legal ordinances ever revealed to the Prophet Muhammad.(Quran Ref: 5:3 )

http://www.islamicity.com/quranSearch

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#88

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:55 am

Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... khumm.html

seeker110
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Necessity of Infalliable Imam - Dawoodi Bohras Perspecti

#89

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:32 am

We need to talk about book that keeps us together. There are plenty of good things in the Quran. Somehow we end up talking about things that divide us. Allah have mercy on us.