@All Mumineen: Pleas Prove Syedina Burhanuddin is masoom?

[badrijanab]

Dear All Bohra Shabab respected brothers and sister,

Kindly prove Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) is masoom? Or "Dai Mutlaq" is masoom?

Please offer references of books before Syedina Tahir Saifuddin sahib to prove above?

Thanks.

[anajmi]

Syedna is massom according to 5:55 and 5:3 and according to 36:11 and 33:33.

[Adam]

Dear All Bohra Shabab respected brothers and sister,
Kindly prove Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) is masoom? Or "Dai Mutlaq" is masoom?
Please offer references of books before Syedina Tahir Saifuddin sahib to prove above?
Thanks.

Syedna Hatim Bin Syedna Ibrahim s book (Tuhfat al Quloob & Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen)
Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeeb al Allah (Risalah)

[badrijanab]

Dear All Bohra Shabab respected brothers and sister,
Kindly prove Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) is masoom? Or "Dai Mutlaq" is masoom?
Please offer references of books before Syedina Tahir Saifuddin sahib to prove above?
Thanks.

Syedna Hatim Bin Syedna Ibrahim s book (Tuhfat al Quloob & Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen)
Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeeb al Allah (Risalah)

Kindly quote the chapter/risala name, page and text?

[porus]

Dear All Bohra Shabab respected brothers and sister,
Kindly prove Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) is masoom? Or "Dai Mutlaq" is masoom?
Please offer references of books before Syedina Tahir Saifuddin sahib to prove above?
Thanks.

Syedna Hatim Bin Syedna Ibrahim s book (Tuhfat al Quloob & Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen)
Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeeb al Allah (Risalah)

Welcome back, Adam.

A Dai proclaiming himself to be a 'masoom' is not permissible. He must refer to Imam for confirmation.

Imam proclaiming himself to be a 'masoom' is not permissible. He must refer to the Quran or the Prophet, preferably both.

Coming to the Quran, is there a reference in it proclaiming 'ismat' or infallibility of Imams? I could not find any. However, there is a reference to Panjatan being 'free of rijs'. I believe that that reference can be interpreted to mean that Panjatan, and only Panjatan, were masoom. No Imam after Imam Husain or any Dai al-Mutlaq can claim to be masoom in that sense. I am waiting to be proven false in my assertion.

[badrijanab]

Syedna Hatim Bin Syedna Ibrahim s book (Tuhfat al Quloob & Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen)
Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeeb al Allah (Risalah)

Adam bhai, we have these books too, please quote the baab number or chapter number or page number?

For your information: Book "Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen" is translated in Urdu from Arabic by Udipuri Sheikh, Al Mukkaddas Al Fazil Ahmed Ali Raj sahab.

[Al Zulfiqar]

A Dai proclaiming himself to be a 'masoom' is not permissible. He must refer to Imam for confirmation.

'not permissible' by whom? when dai himself is his own authority, why would he require permission from some 2 bit johnny-come-lately telling him he cannot be masoom?

syedna taher saifuddin had categorically stated in court that he is ilah ul ardh. that goes way beyond 'masoomiyat'. asking the dai to prove he is 'masoom' is like asking allah to prove he is infallible!!

[Adam]

@PORUS
1. The Prophet, Imam and Dai al Muthlaq are Ma'soom according to the Quran and Fatimi texts.
2. An argument can be proven both ways, either from above or below. If you go from below, there must be substantial proof. For example, "Allah" hasn't PHYSICALLY told us he exists (if you say he does, through the Quran, then you're going from below again), thus, the existence of Allah must be deduced from other ways.

Fatimi texts like the Masabeeh deal with this.
On "most" occassions the argument goes from down to up.
Rasool proves Allah (and his Ismah)
Quran Proves Rasool &/or Allah (and his Ismah)
Dai proves Ismah of Imam
etc etc

3. If you use the "rijs" interpretation to prove "Ismah" (which is correct), then by the same deduction & reasons, the Imams "ismah" applies (every true Imam/leader needs to be fault free), once that is accepted, through the concept of the Kisa al Tathheer, that the Imams are a part of it (according to Fatimi beliefs). the Dai Muthlaq representative of the Imam in the same context.
Countering your beliefs, ANAJMI has gone against your proving Ismah for the 5 Panjatan, from a Hadees, rather he goes to say it's for the wives and not the "5". He doesn't accept your Hadees.

Once you've established the need for Ismah, for whoever, that same logic applies to the representative of that person. Rasool - Imam - Dai.

It's all about interpretation, and how you prove it.

@Badri Janab
(If you, or your scholars were so brilliant, they surely should be able to pin point which chapters and which books. Me, being a simple soul can name a few.)
Some of the books I know are:
- Quran Ayat Tatheer for Ismah of Panjatan and Imams.
- Kitab al Masabih proves the Ismah of the Imams (first volume)
- Syedna Hatims books don't directly deal with this chapter, therefore it will be easier to read Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeebullahs RISALAH RADD on The HUJUMIYYAH FIRQAH. This entire Risalah deals with the concept of Ismah for Allah, Quran, Imam, Dai Muthlaq. It quotes many texts ranging from the Prophet to Imams to Dais (including Syedna Hatim), so that would be easier for simple / purposely un educated (by Ahmed Ali Raj) brain.

I've given you the key and shown you the door.
Now, fend for yourself

[seeker110]

It is easy to prove Burhanuddin saheb is masoom. When ever I would sit still and be quite,and not get in mischief my mom would say Kewo masoom chei. Now look at Burhanuddin saheb.

[MM Bukhari]

@PORUS
1. The Prophet, Imam and Dai al Muthlaq are Ma'soom according to the Quran and Fatimi texts.
2. An argument can be proven both ways, either from above or below. If you go from below, there must be substantial proof. For example, "Allah" hasn't PHYSICALLY told us he exists (if you say he does, through the Quran, then you're going from below again), thus, the existence of Allah must be deduced from other ways.

Fatimi texts like the Masabeeh deal with this.
On "most" occassions the argument goes from down to up.
Rasool proves Allah (and his Ismah)
Quran Proves Rasool &/or Allah (and his Ismah)
Dai proves Ismah of Imam
etc etc

3. If you use the "rijs" interpretation to prove "Ismah" (which is correct), then by the same deduction & reasons, the Imams "ismah" applies (every true Imam/leader needs to be fault free), once that is accepted, through the concept of the Kisa al Tathheer, that the Imams are a part of it (according to Fatimi beliefs). the Dai Muthlaq representative of the Imam in the same context.
Countering your beliefs, ANAJMI has gone against your proving Ismah for the 5 Panjatan, from a Hadees, rather he goes to say it's for the wives and not the "5". He doesn't accept your Hadees.

Once you've established the need for Ismah, for whoever, that same logic applies to the representative of that person. Rasool - Imam - Dai.

It's all about interpretation, and how you prove it.

@Badri Janab
(If you, or your scholars were so brilliant, they surely should be able to pin point which chapters and which books. Me, being a simple soul can name a few.)
Some of the books I know are:
- Quran Ayat Tatheer for Ismah of Panjatan and Imams.
- Kitab al Masabih proves the Ismah of the Imams (first volume)
- Syedna Hatims books don't directly deal with this chapter, therefore it will be easier to read Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeebullahs RISALAH RADD on The HUJUMIYYAH FIRQAH. This entire Risalah deals with the concept of Ismah for Allah, Quran, Imam, Dai Muthlaq. It quotes many texts ranging from the Prophet to Imams to Dais (including Syedna Hatim), so that would be easier for simple / purposely un educated (by Ahmed Ali Raj) brain.

I've given you the key and shown you the door.
Now, fend for yourself

wb Adam, even after repeated Pms u havent replied me a simple question on zakaat, and here u are bulln shiiting shiit which is of no use.

dai is masoom or criminal it wont help any individual in his grave, so just drop this idea....

[think]

b.j. define masoom.

[Adam]

The above was a direct answer to BadriJanab (who's probably running around trying to understand these texts). This is the topic of the thread.

I can't remember your Zakat question, please do feel free to ask again, but on another thread and don't divert this.

[Humsafar]

Adam,
Why would an infallible Dai first cause a riot by his careless public remarks and then make a public apology for the same?
Why would an infallible Dai make friends with and honour the Butchers of Muslims/Bohras (Modi/Thackery)?
Why would an infallible Dai accept/demand obscene amount of money for ziyafats?
Why would an infallible Dai kill innocent animals for sport?
Why would an infallible Dai allow his family to loot Bohras and steal from the public purse?
Why don't you abdes compare infallibility as a concept with what that infallibility means in real life, in action? Oops, sorry you never thought of that, it was not part of your sabak. You've learned from your masters that no matter what the Dai does he shall remain divinely infallible - drawing that quality directly and mysteriously (and by way of magical deduction) from the Imam via the Rasool via Allah.
Wah bhai wah.

[Al Zulfiqar]

exactly my thoughts humsafar.

does anyone give a rats a#@e on the technicalities of dai's masoomiyat, when his actions speak otherwise?

its become the iblisi strategy of adam and that side kick of his pesticide, to engage and draw progressive minded bohras into useless and irrelevant debates while glossing over the criminal misdeeds and unislamic practices of the dai and his ayyash family living off haram ni kamai.

o great scholar adam, why dont you spend as much time and energy analysing the tyranny, loot and misuse of our deen by the past 2 dai's and supporting the majority of bohras clamouring for reform, instead of bullshitting day and night on how we are going to recognise the imam and whether dawood ibrahim is maasoom or not?

i am surprised and dismayed that otherwise sensible people are getting drawn into the spider web being woven by these two poisonous charlatans. stop giving importance to these stupid topics and responding on them, thats exactly what these brigands want.

its like the clever rascal who kept prolonging his eventual death by daily bringing up a new story to keep the gullible king and his wives engrossed and diverted from his ghastly fate at their hands. sounds familiar?

[Bori85]

@PORUS
1. The Prophet, Imam and Dai al Muthlaq are Ma'soom according to the Quran and Fatimi texts.
2. An argument can be proven both ways, either from above or below. If you go from below, there must be substantial proof. For example, "Allah" hasn't PHYSICALLY told us he exists (if you say he does, through the Quran, then you're going from below again), thus, the existence of Allah must be deduced from other ways.

Fatimi texts like the Masabeeh deal with this.
On "most" occassions the argument goes from down to up.
Rasool proves Allah (and his Ismah)
Quran Proves Rasool &/or Allah (and his Ismah)
Dai proves Ismah of Imam
etc etc

3. If you use the "rijs" interpretation to prove "Ismah" (which is correct), then by the same deduction & reasons, the Imams "ismah" applies (every true Imam/leader needs to be fault free), once that is accepted, through the concept of the Kisa al Tathheer, that the Imams are a part of it (according to Fatimi beliefs). the Dai Muthlaq representative of the Imam in the same context.
Countering your beliefs, ANAJMI has gone against your proving Ismah for the 5 Panjatan, from a Hadees, rather he goes to say it's for the wives and not the "5". He doesn't accept your Hadees.

Once you've established the need for Ismah, for whoever, that same logic applies to the representative of that person. Rasool - Imam - Dai.

It's all about interpretation, and how you prove it.

@Badri Janab
(If you, or your scholars were so brilliant, they surely should be able to pin point which chapters and which books. Me, being a simple soul can name a few.)
Some of the books I know are:
- Quran Ayat Tatheer for Ismah of Panjatan and Imams.
- Kitab al Masabih proves the Ismah of the Imams (first volume)
- Syedna Hatims books don't directly deal with this chapter, therefore it will be easier to read Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habeebullahs RISALAH RADD on The HUJUMIYYAH FIRQAH. This entire Risalah deals with the concept of Ismah for Allah, Quran, Imam, Dai Muthlaq. It quotes many texts ranging from the Prophet to Imams to Dais (including Syedna Hatim), so that would be easier for simple / purposely un educated (by Ahmed Ali Raj) brain.

I've given you the key and shown you the door.
Now, fend for yourself

To Mr Adam
Ok so you have given us the key and asked to fend ourself to find out whether Burhanuddin is masoom or not, fine we will go in detail research of all the books you have named and will try to find his masumiyat. Now can you prove Syedna to be "masoom" by his deeds?

[seeker110]

Only Allah knows if Burhanuddin is masoom. All I know is Allah created idiots and idiots cannot be masoom.

[Adam]

To Mr Adam
Ok so you have given us the key and asked to fend ourself to find out whether Burhanuddin is masoom or not, fine we will go in detail research of all the books you have named and will try to find his masumiyat. Now can you prove Syedna to be "masoom" by his deeds?

Correction: I gave you the "key" to understand that the people you "supposedly" follow ie YOUR Prophet, YOUR Imams, YOUR Du'aats are Ma'soom.
I was just trying to help you figure out YOUR own Proggy belief, since you seem so confused.

We Dawoodi Bohras are very clear.
Rasulullah - Ma'soom
Imam (representative of the Rasool) = Ma'soom
Dai al Muthlaq (representative of the Imam in Satr) = Ma'soom.

[Humsafar]

Dai ul Mutlaq in theory = Masoom.
Dai ul Mutlaq in practice = Not so soon.

[Kaka Akela]

Adam B s :
Don't you have better to do than prowl this site to harass the participants on this board.
I am an old man, when I was your age the Dai used to be called " Kal Masoom" which meant " Masoom Jaisa" . I am noticing as I age that the Dai is slowly raised inch by inch towards divinity, pretty soon he will declare himself to be the Imam that we all are waiting for. all these titles of Shahzadas, zaadis are bunch of B S. all this started as one year in Moharram vaez Syedna Burhanuddin mentioned that his shahzada so0 and so is gone for vaez to Karachi, and since then this title of shahzada the bohras have latched onto. He may be his shahzada, I also have couple of my own shahzada at home, to every father his son is a shahzada, but it shouldn't become part of their name. There is too much nepotism in our religion, what happened to " Akramokum indallahay atqakum". Look here in Houston shahzada Malik B S' 14 year old son who is still in middle school doing sadarat of the majalis and people like Nooruddin Yamani (graduate with distinction from Jamea), and Shk Tayyeb Ali Salim, Shk. Kauser Ali all Jamea graduates bowing down to kiss his feet. The only reason he is given raza to do sadarat is to keep the money in the family. Dawat is turned into a money making machine.
And dummies like you come here to pose rehtorical questions about recognizing Imam and believing the Dai as Masoom. I think you should get a life and get busy living it, not just sit in Saify Mahal and keep harassing the people with repeat question like a brokem record.

[humanbeing]

Having hunted and shot an animal of no use or threat is one reason / event / action / deed is enough to prove that Current Dai and its mansoos is not Masoom (Infallible).

[Fateh]

In this present world i think only all babies up to age of 3 to 5 year may be we call masoom ,about others OH MY GOD

[Al Zulfiqar]

Dear All Bohra respected brothers and sister, Kindly prove Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) is masoom? Or "Dai Mutlaq" is masoom?

I have said this before on another thread: All those who are in diapers are considered maasoom.

There is your proof.

[seeker110]

"All those in diapers are Masoom"

A sambhli ne Abde ni pishab chooti gai.

[Adam]

@Kaka,

I am an old man, when I was your age the Dai used to be called "Kal Masoom"

Read the books (with raza) that i've quoted. You'll understand the concept of "Kal Masoom".
All Du'ats Muthlaqeen are Ma'soom. (Syedna Hatim & Syedi Luqmanjee who you "supposedly" follow explicitly explain this).
Do you at least accept the Prophet and Imams are Ma'soom. Or are you against them also?

Shehzada

Refer to Syedna Abdeali Saifuddins "Kika Bhai Jalidi Parho", referring to his son:
"Rehjo Seedha ne sama * kahey SHEHZADA nama" - So the word Shehzada has been used for the Dais son. Read Syedi Sadiq Ali Sahebs naseehat.
(You "supposedly" do follow Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin don't you?)

[Muslim First]

Do you at least accept the Prophet and Imams are Ma'soom. Or are you against them also?

I believe Prophet is infallible only in religious matter when he was guided by gibrail. There is no reference to Imams in Quran so them being Masoom is out of question.

[Adam]

That question was posted to Kaka (a "supposed" proggy).
Wasn't talking to a Wahabi/Prophet-hater.

[Al Zulfiqar]

That question was posted to Kaka (a "supposed" proggy).
Wasn't talking to a Wahabi/Prophet-hater.

adam,

you seem to keep forgetting that this forum is not your typical sabak where you are the zaada or amil and all others on this forum are your abdes, where you can direct questions only to one of your terrified acolytes and no one else can answer. this forum is a like a free-for-all boxing ring, if you jump in, be prepared to have blows rain on you from all sides, with some well-aimed kicks and punches at your gluteals and leaden-head.

i am not surprised that this simple fact does not sink into your rock-filled skull. after all you are conditioned to bark and yell at poor slavish bohras who again are habituated to jump up and obey, and say 'jee saab' and 'jee huzoor'.

take your arrogance and dictatorial behaviour and stuff it on maalumaat and zeninfo etc, where you will be be totally at home among your fellow zaadas and abdes.

[Muslim First]

That question was posted to Kaka (a "supposed" proggy).
Wasn't talking to a Wahabi/Prophet-hater.

We mainstream Muslims are not Prophet haters, that will be gravest accusation. I have posted instance of planting sapling and Prophets advice turned out to be wrong. prophet said he is not infallible in worldly matters.

BTW it is useless to argue with blind Abde. You and your ilk do not believe in any Sunni Ahadith unless it is convent to your cult.

[wise_guy]

That question was posted to Kaka (a "supposed" proggy).

BTW it is useless to argue with blind Abde. You and your ilk do not believe in any Sunni Ahadith unless it is convent to your cult.

sunni ahadith.... As far as I know, sunni hadtihs are only about how to suppress women or to hate/kill Non Muslims.. No wonder, sunnis in countries like India and Pakistan are so backwards literacy and economy wise. Just because the Saudis and the surrounding nations have mineral oil and hence American support, they are well off otherwise they would be in the same conditions as Indian/Pakistani sunnis both in their economic as well as Intellectuality.

[Muslim First]

sunni ahadith.... As far as I know, sunni hadtihs are only about how to suppress women or to hate/kill Non Muslims.. No wonder, sunnis in countries like India and Pakistan are so backwards literacy and economy wise. Just because the Saudis and the surrounding nations have mineral oil and hence American support, they are well off otherwise they would be in the same conditions as Indian/Pakistani sunnis both in their economic as well as Intellectuality.

How true it is my brother.