Please enlighten me about the whole story

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Bohra spring
Posts: 1233
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#31

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:02 am

asad wrote:
Bohra spring wrote:I know someone who is a regular on this site, if you agree I will PM him, who is an expert to guide you in setting up a plan and executing it?
Can you ask the same guy to help all of us, as whatever we have been doing till now is not working.
In due course , but the person needs a secure restricted discussion board, no point of discussing the exact steps in public this is not a debate but real revolt. PDB are not interested , my FGM banning test proved it, so he she is already working at grass root level. I think Yemeni are better suited , I do not want sound racist but bohris are complacent and timid.



Yemeni
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:00 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#32

Unread post by Yemeni » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:39 am

accountability wrote:Yemeni do you guys have a leader, you said the doctorine is the same, so in satr there should be an appointee (DAI), DO you in yemen take syedna saheb as your dai, if you could apprise us how ismailis over in yemen are practicising tayebi faith. because in india, tayebis split after syedna dawood bin qutub shah, therefore we are called dawoodi bohras. dawoodis are the biggest sect, others who call themselves bohras, are very less in no.
. i would like to know yemeni point of view on misaq. or is there any such thing.

We do not believe in his religious leadership as dai anymore .. Many of us still believe in Imam but we do not agree that someone knows where is he or who is he because simply it s not logical to stay in Satr for all these years .. This is basically unreasonable specially in this days where there is no reason to hide .I have no idea about Misaq nowadays , but as fara as I know we dont have such thing ..


Bohra spring wrote:Yameni brother,

Do you have a Diai ? Or who do your people regard as their religious leader ?

How did you decide on the leader ?

Have you any link of connection with Diai Sheikh Makrami of Najran Saudi Arabia ?

Can you revolt and kick the Indian Bohra clergys out of Yemen ? Have you tried ,

When i said help i meant I know someone who is a regular on this site, if you agree I will PM him, who is an expert to guide you in setting up a plan and executing it?

We do not have Dai right now .. We depend in our Scholars ..So there is no specific leader for us right now .. We know a lot of people who are under the leadership of the Najran Dai but there is no strong connection between us ...

We have kicked their Amil from Yemen before . So it is very easy for us to make trouble for them because as I said before they are minority here and every Muslim in Yemen do not like them . We have called the National Security and we told them that those cult wants to make religious problems here in Yemen .. Then the government asked their Amil to go out of Yemen ..



pheonix
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#33

Unread post by pheonix » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:55 am

Yemeni wrote:This is basically unreasonable specially in this days where there is no reason to hide
Hello, i doubt you are a yemeni, Have you even heard of the crazy wahabi talibans. There is certainly reason to hide.



pheonix
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#34

Unread post by pheonix » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:56 am

Yemeni wrote:This is basically unreasonable specially in this days where there is no reason to hide
Hello, i doubt you are a yemeni, Have you even heard of the crazy wahabi talibans. There is certainly reason to hide.
If they can try to kill a little girl in Pakistan, then what would they do against someone who threatens their very doctrine.



SBM
Posts: 6142
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#35

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:01 am

pheonix wrote:
Yemeni wrote:This is basically unreasonable specially in this days where there is no reason to hide
Hello, i doubt you are a yemeni, Have you even heard of the crazy wahabi talibans. There is certainly reason to hide.
so you are telling that the TRUE IMAM who is the follower of Sher-e-Khuda Imam Ali is afraid of Wahabi Talibans and this Imam is supposed to save us from hell fire :oops:



pheonix
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#36

Unread post by pheonix » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:03 am

SBM wrote:
pheonix wrote: Hello, i doubt you are a yemeni, Have you even heard of the crazy wahabi talibans. There is certainly reason to hide.
so you are telling that the TRUE IMAM who is the follower of Sher-e-Khuda Imam Ali is afraid of Talibans and this Imam is supposed to save us from hell fire :oops:
Well Ali didn't fight the 3, the usurpurs of Rasoolillah's khilafat and the killers of his wife, was he afraid of them?
He was rational. I guess irrational beings like you won't understand.



SBM
Posts: 6142
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#37

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:06 am

Well Ali didn't fight the 3, the usurpurs of Rasoolillah's khilafat and the killers of his wife, was he afraid of them?
No that proves that Imam Ali accepted their Khilafats and did not have EGO to rule like the Kothari Goons have



Bohra spring
Posts: 1233
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#38

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:44 am

Phoenix f- off you do not have raza to participate on this thread , I have said before you are a guest and live within its boundary. Shoo off.

Yemeni ignore this abde fool, now back to your interesting insight. This is is becoming wonderful , When he looses an argument and cannot be useful he throws in Wahhabi and Taliban insults to progressives and rebels as if authorities are stupid to blindly listen to his accusations without doing their homework .

Remember Qaddafi and real Asad , when he was loosing he called all revolutionists terrorists!



Bohra spring
Posts: 1233
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#39

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:23 am

Yamani brother please help with details

How many of your people are there ?

Do you have photos and video that you can upload how your people live ?

Are your community prosperous ?

Is it true that dawoodi bohras are helping you with charity and upliftment

You say they are oppressing you how is it are they corrupt , arrogant or discriminating ?



Yemeni
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:00 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#40

Unread post by Yemeni » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:44 am

Bohra spring wrote:Yamani brother please help with details

How many of your people are there ?

Do you have photos and video that you can upload how your people live ?

Are your community prosperous ?

Is it true that dawoodi bohras are helping you with charity and upliftment

You say they are oppressing you how is it are they corrupt , arrogant or discriminating ?
I do not have exact numbers but we are living in normal life .. We do not have any relation with them because we have refused to give submission to them since maybe 30 years. Now we are simply living without a spiritual leadership except our scholars ..

Regarding Charity ,they are making some charity things in poor villages exploiting the poor people there then they humiliate them if they did not accept their stupid rules .



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#41

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:06 pm

brother yemeni,

I have a lot of friends among yemeni bohras. most of them have left our cult altogether and reverted to join the larger muslim community. i know for a fact that they do not recognise this indianised dai and his arrogant family who lord it over the abde bohras. they feel alienated with the language, customs, culture and forced uniformity of the non-yemeni abde bohras,

i also know that they are very proud of their ancestry linking them to the yemeni dais, incl. syedna hatim, but they feel ashamed and embarrassed to associate themselves with what the bohras are today, esp. under the last 2 dais. their abde bohra practices and behaviour are too 'foreign', weird, strange and unislamic to them. they feel ignored, isolated and ridiculed, in fact many of them have confessed in anger, that they have been looked upon and treated with contempt by the majority of abde bohras, because of their arab dress, mannerisms, culture, cuisine etc.

its as if the last few dai's have hijacked the proud ancestry of ismaili mustaalian shias and perverted or bastardised it to their skewed version. some of that criticism may be unjustified as the mission moved perforce to india, but nevertheless the fact remains that yemeni bohras are treated as backward, uncivilised, rude and defiant, because they refuse to obey the diktats of the autocratic baniya zaadas and amils. their knowledge of arabic and the fact that they are connected with the larger yemeni society is a constant source of fear and worry for the bambaiyyaa kothari administration.

bro yemeni, as you have rightly mentioned, the words 'bohra', 'raza', 'abde syedna' etc are offensive and irritating to yemeni bohras, in fact, they look down upon the rest of the bohras who bow and scrape in front of dai and his henchmen and grovel for crumbs, who speak no arabic and who distort arabic, twist and even attempt to patronise and deceive those who are knowledgeable of our history and scriptures!

some of the dai's attempts to pump in money and make the arab yemenis assimilate into the 'mainstream' may be worthy, but often they are nothing but a blatant strategy to buy their silence and quell their rebellion.

brother yemeni, i have known of many yemeni bohras, some very powerful and influential in past yemeni govts, even as ministers, who gave the kothar and its agents in hodeidah, sanaa and aden a very hard time. i remember the amil of aden in the 60's was arrested and jailed for his high handedness due to a yemeni arab bohra's efforts. there are many more interesting stories on this subject that i have to share.



Bohra spring
Posts: 1233
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#42

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:59 pm

Brother Yemeni

My gift to your people feel free to make copies and distribute it is permitted by the publishers . It will help you in your mission to be free from the Manssoos tyrani.

http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations/ ... Arabic.pdf

Admin the english translation Should be linked on this site as a publication and freely available to all revolutionists who are trying to bring reform in the community.

One more request are there photos or YouTube videos you can share that can help us know about your traditions and culture we can learn so much from it. You have reached to us and we are grateful to you to give us insight into the original indigenous traditions of our faith.

My current view of Fatimide is so much clouded by the pollution I have witnessed in the last 40 years of my personal experience and hope by interacting with you there is hope that ismailism is not the cause of our deviation. I am suspicious that all history in India got polluted and unless we start again and trace and identify impurity we can not make real change by making cosmetic changes.

AZ brother please share or point me to your knowledge of the Yemen saga.



asad
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#43

Unread post by asad » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:31 am

I am seeing a trend that people are jumping to a conclusion that Yemenis have revolted and no longer under Syedna's rule. To begin with they were never under dawat as we know it today. The day dawat migrated to India Yemeni bohras lost touch due to distant lands, they hold on to small threads of faith and somehow followed their Bohra or rather Ismaili deen. Due to no Bohra clergy to supervise, they mingled with other Muslims and marriages among larger Islamic community diluted their Bohra identity.

The Bohra deen what we see today or rather whatever is passed on as Bohrism is a recent invention with major part coming in last 50 years and rest of it in last 200 years, So to start with Yemenis dont know what wadhavanu or similar Hindu rituals are but they are learning fast, i have seen them doing it with gusto in sana. Syedna has been trying to have Yemeni girls get married to Bohra men from different parts of the world. Even Mufaddal saheb has encouraged it a lot, Though its called as assimilation of Yemenis with their Bohra brethren but it looks as if its done just to bring them in line with Bohrism as we know today.

So their never was any revolt but rather gradual submission is going on.



Yemeni
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:00 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#44

Unread post by Yemeni » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:33 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:brother yemeni,


bro yemeni, as you have rightly mentioned, the words 'bohra', 'raza', 'abde syedna' etc are offensive and irritating to yemeni bohras, in fact, they look down upon the rest of the bohras who bow and scrape in front of dai and his henchmen and grovel for crumbs, who speak no arabic and who distort arabic, twist and even attempt to patronise and deceive those who are knowledgeable of our history and scriptures!

some of the dai's attempts to pump in money and make the arab Yemenis assimilate into the 'mainstream' may be worthy, but often they are nothing but a blatant strategy to buy their silence and quell their rebellion.

brother yemeni, i have known of many yemeni bohras, some very powerful and influential in past yemeni govts, even as ministers, who gave the kothar and its agents in hodeidah, sanaa and aden a very hard time. i remember the amil of aden in the 60's was arrested and jailed for his high handedness due to a yemeni arab bohra's efforts. there are many more interesting stories on this subject that i have to share.

Borther Al Zulfiqar ,

You have a lot of knowledge about the situation here in Yemen as if you are here between us . I wonder how did you know all of that information . My grandfathers were fighting against them since a long time but I am struggling to find that information .. That's why I am following this forum since a long time . I decided to keep the fight against them by enlightening people that the problem is in the Indian version of this doctrine not the doctrine itself . In my opinion the doctrine itself need some changes but this is more difficult but not impossible . Brother Al Zulfiqar if you have any stories please share it with us ..


Their strategy is clear!! They want to distort the identity and culture heritage of Yemeni people here and they are doing it very well for some stupid and poor people. I know alot of people who follow them for money only .


Thank you Bohra Spring for the gift I will try my best ..



zinger
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#45

Unread post by zinger » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:23 am

Mr. Al Zulfiqar,

Just asking out of confusion. Why are you referring to the Yemeni's as Yemeni Bohras?

Or are you calling them as Yemeni Bohras only for the sake of avoiding confusion? I.E. Yemeni's who belong to the same sect as us.

Reason is that i had asked Mr. Yemeni as to what they call themselves. They will obviously not refer to them as Bohras since Bohra is an Indian term

So, when you refer to Yemeni Bohras, are you referring to MustaAli sect?

Thanks



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#46

Unread post by porus » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:40 pm

I believe that there are two distinct groups of the followers of Tayyibi Daawat in Yemen.

The newer group comprises migrants from India and those men who have married Yemeni wives. This group retains Indian culture and many pass on the language and mores of the Bohras of India. This is a minority.

The indigenous group comprises of Arabs who speak Arabic and have Arab culture and mores. Historically, this group has never reconciled itself to the fact of Daawat having shifted from Yemen to India. Up to about a hundred years ago, this group used to send students to Jaamia in Surat to learn about exoteric and esoteric knowledge. I gather that this group does not do this any more. Occasionally, they send delegation to show solidarity with Indians. This last happened when a Yemeni delegation went to Mumbai to participate in celebrations of 100th Milad of Sayedna.

Because the migrants and the indigenous have different cultures there is not much meeting of ways between them. Both groups are isolated and do not have the infusion of scholarship to progress religion.

There are ongoing attempts to send Amils from India. But they are divisive because they tend to find migrants more amenable.

Similar situation prevailed in East Africa fifty years ago. However, Bohras of East Africa shared Indian culture and were easily absorbed into slavery of Daawat and there are now many students from East Africa that take advantage of Jamia studies. This has not yet happened in Yemen because Yemenis, having proud Arab lineage will prove resistant to slavery.

Future for religious scholarship among Bohras is not very bright. The last of the true scholars are now aged Mazoon and Mukasir. Mazoon is ill and cannot instruct. Mukasir is the only one left with in-depth knowledge of Haqaiq and able to advance the subject. He used to give prolific sabaqs and has now all but stopped.

The last of mighty Bohra intellectuals, in addition to Mazoon and Mukasir, were Sayedna Taher Saifuddin, the four Ustaads who were baraated out and to some extent, Yusuf Najmuddin. They are all gone. Sayedna Muhmmad Burhanuddin is an intellectual lightweight and has made no contribution to scholarship. He has, as far as I know, never given any sabaq. ( I gather that the marsiya Fulkul Husain is falsely attributed to him as an author)

Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin's era is one of materialistic ostentation and mental slavery. Even the Jamia graduates know only the parrot-fashion recitations of what they study. This is what is becoming apparent to indigenous Yemenis.

In an interview that Amil of Hutaib gave to al-Jazeera, Amil was challenged to explain Bohra sujood to Dai. Amil, apparently an Indian transplant, was rescued by a the Dai's indigenous Yemeni assistant who invoked laanat on those who perform sajfda to the Dai. This event underlines the tensions between migrants and indigenous Yemeni 'Bohras'.



Bori85
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#47

Unread post by Bori85 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:58 pm

Yemeni wrote:
Al Zulfiqar wrote:brother yemeni,

Their strategy is clear!! They want to distort the identity and culture heritage of Yemeni people here and they are doing it very well for some stupid and poor people. I know alot of people who follow them for money only .
Mr.Yemeni,
I was told by some DB's that the Yemeni bohras were growing "Kaat" in their fields (leaves which most Yemeni people chew) so the Sayedna gave them money and asked them to grow other things and that's how is trying to gain their sympathy . Is this true? Also when I was in Yemen, I saw the bohra ladies giving their ridas to the poor Yemeni ladies who were coming in the faiz in Hutaib. This is because, the Kothar wants the Yemeni ladies to dress like the DB ladies in India.



Biradar
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#48

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:08 pm

porus wrote:They are all gone. Sayedna Muhmmad Burhanuddin is an intellectual lightweight and has made no contribution to scholarship. He has, as far as I know, never given any sabaq. ( I gather that the marsiya Fulkul Husain is falsely attributed to him as an author)

Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin's era is one of materialistic ostentation and mental slavery. Even the Jamia graduates know only the parrot-fashion recitations of what they study. This is what is becoming apparent to indigenous Yemenis.
These are rather ridiculous statements, specially coming from porus. Do you really think that S. Mohammad Burhanudin is an "intellectual lightweight?" Not all da'is are prolific authors or teachers. Each has a unique personality and runs the dawaat in a different way. It is true that material greed has increased tremendously, but that does not mean that scholarship is decreasing among the bohras. I have sat in for many sermons by the Sayedna, and I can tell you that his lectures are highly intellectual. Most people fall asleep, but that is the nature of the subject: most people do not have the capacity or the interest to understand the details of complicated philosophical doctrines.

Also, it is not obvious to me that Yemenis are any better, or can be, in understanding of this material. To assume this is just another form of self hatred and Arab worship. In fact, Arabs have done very little to preserve, propagate or extend Ismaili scholarship. All the advances in the last centuries have been made by Westerners or people of Indian origin.

I want to also say that it is best to take the attribution of works like "Fulkul Husain" without too much questioning, unless one has definite proof. Why could the Sayedna have not written it? Why do you say, on the contrary, that S. Taher Saifuddin was a scholar? Could not someone else have written all the books attributed to him? What about the books attributed to the previous da'is? Why not cast doubt on their claims too?



Bohra spring
Posts: 1233
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#49

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:01 am


etter, or can be, in understanding of this material. To assume this is just another form of self hatred and Arab worship. In fact, Arabs have done very little to preserve, propagate or extend Ismaili scholarship. All the advances in the last centuries have been made by Westerners or people of Indian origin.


Biradar what advances have Indians done ?

Do you have examples of intellectual sermons that SMB has done ?

I do not deny he is learned but a expert and judgement , I doubt, his bayans are written, he has not participated in debates or resolved complex issues , being invited as an arbitrator or negotiator of difficult public issues.



Biradar
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#50

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:17 am

You should understand I am not trying to defend the Sayedna. But to just say any ridiculous thing just because one hates him is not correct either.
Bohra spring wrote:Birader what advances have Indians done ?
If you look at the output of recent scholarship on Ismailism you will notice a lot the source materials is from Indian bohras, some of them no longer in the mainstream dawaat. Many of these were persecuted for making the literature available. Also, a lot of historical material on the Fatimids is now being published by a small but prolific set of scholars of Indian or subcontinent origins.
Bohra spring wrote: his bayans are written, he has not participated in debates or resolved complex issues , being invited as an arbitrator or negotiator of difficult public issues.
Yes, his bayans are written. That in itself is not a bad thing. Many great orators and scholars read out written material. In fact, it is the norm and not the exception. The quality is what matters, and I submit that quality is very high.

One has to realize that the dawaat has undergone tremendous change in the last few decades. One thing which has happened is that emotional appeal which the current da'i has on the bohras is very great. They do not fear him, but genuinely love him. Things are made more complicated as he is very old which increases the sympathy which people feel towards him. Also, slowly over a period of a decade or so the content of most bayans have changed from being intellectual to emotional. I believe that this is probably because the Sayedna does have a genuine fatherly feeling towards his followers, and not that of a scholar imparting knowledge.

One can not dismiss the achievements of the Sayedna easily. During his time a major revival of Fatimid architecture has occurred. Many places which lay in ruins have been rebuilt. An enormous complex of muafarkhanas have been built and now far more people can visit these places in comfort than before. Even when I was growing up a visit to a place like Burhanpur or Galiakot would be a chore and hardship. Now it is easy: one need not even plan, just hop on a train or bus and you can stay there in comfort for a few days before coming home. It is no longer a hardship. I think people will remember the Sayedna as a great revivalist of buildings, masjids and kubbas, and not a scholar.



Adam
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#51

Unread post by Adam » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:58 am

Bohra spring wrote:Yameni brother,
Do you have a Diai ? Or who do your people regard as their religious leader ?
How did you decide on the leader ?

Interesting Bohra Spring.
I await his answer! (if he has one)



Humsafar
Posts: 2484
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#52

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:13 pm

Biradar,
You seem to take a very charitable view of Sayedna Saheb and his achievements. Whether he's a great scholar or not is moot, and one can also allow that Bohras love him but does he love them in return? Not really. Your claim that he has fatherly feelings for Bohras is not supported by his behaviour and the behaviour of his rapacious "royal family". Giving emotional, lovely bayans is fine and even necessary as they provide much need succour to the wounded, harassed and oppressed people. As a Dai and a leader much more is expected of him. Under his watch - either by intent or neglect - he has allowed his zadaas to turn the Dawat into a materialistic enterprise entirely devoid of moral and religious values. Money, material wealth and luxury are the guiding principles of this Dai and his Dawat. His "fatherly feeling for Bohras" and the "Bohras' love for him" have been manufactured by long and careful propaganda and indoctrination. What it has resulted in is in one-way traffic of love, money and devotion of Bohras to Sayenda and his family. And what do Bohras get in return? Worthless phooks, emotional bayans, fear of the Kothar, epmty pockets, and loss of dignity. This balance sheet is terribly lop-sided. The Bohras have been hard done by, and I see no redeeming feature here.
Not even in his attempts to revive Fatimid architecture. First of all, he has used community's money to do that, and secondly probably the motivation was personal glory. Even if we grant that his love for the Fatimid architecture may be genuine, it has gone hand-in-hand with the dismantling of the architecture of the faith he was supposed protect and preserve and propagate. Yes he has renovated all the musfirkhanas (with community money, again) and has thus encouraged ziyarat tourism - to generate income and fill up gullas which he claims. His focus seems to be on exterior, material things. He has embellished the outer symbols of faith and rituals - driving Bohras more towards physical worship rather than guiding them towards value based faith of simplicity, love and charity. His greatest achievement has been to lead the community to moral, intellectual and spiritual ruin. Adam, phoenix, pesticide and zinger on this board are some sterling specimen of that.



Biradar
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#53

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:39 pm

Humsafar wrote:Biradar,
You seem to take a very charitable view of Sayedna Saheb and his achievements. Whether he's a great scholar or not is moot, and one can also allow that Bohras love him but does he love them in return? Not really.
Perhaps you are correct, but I personally tend to view things in a less extreme light than most people on this board. My main point is that we should not let hatred rule our minds and words.

I do believe that the dawaat has moved towards an absolute control over individual bohra lives. It feels like a collectivization of identity, and recently, of resources. Individuality has been wiped out from the bohras and a mindless conformity has been cultivated. It reminds me a lot of the situation described in Czesław Miłosz's book "The Captive Mind".

I do think that the situation the bohras are in (of absolute control by the clergy) is not one of the Sayedna's explicit doing. Rather, it was his weak-handed approach to first his brothers and then his children that has led to this mess. Of course, he is ultimately to be blamed as he could have prevented this from happening.

Also, using community money to build or renovate historical and cultural artifacts is not in itself a bad thing. After all, the community does derive benefit from it. The real problem is the excuse this serves to enrich the immediate family of the da'i and, conversely, put the bohras in an even tighter grip of the clergy.

I am not in disagreement with you. My point is that in the zeal to try and fix things lets not get carried away and say any random thing which comes to mind. It just enflames passions and makes any sort of solution harder to reach.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#54

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:26 pm

an excellent post, humsafar!

i have an inkling why biradar tends to take the moderate view that he does. he is surrounded by orthodox fanatics who make up perhaps the bulk of his extended family, full of blind faith. it can be a very powerful influence on one's psyche'. on the flip side, i would admire that he is yet able to detach himself from their fanaticism and still retain some sense of rational thought.



Biradar
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#55

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:55 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:i have an inkling why biradar tends to take the moderate view that he does. he is surrounded by orthodox fanatics who make up perhaps the bulk of his extended family, full of blind faith.
Actually, it is just the reverse. I have no fanatical family members. In fact, those who are deep into it can not see the bigger picture and tend to be the most extreme in their views. Being moderate is a virtue. Hate is what leads to extremism.

Again, let me repeat what I told porus: do not make ridiculous statements about the intellectual capacity of the Sayedna, or try and needlessly challenge the authorship of what he claims to have written. These are not very important things in themselves and, on the contrary, show a hidden fear. I have seen people say any random nonsense that comes to their mind and try their best to beat the other in being nasty and spread the most unlikely lies about the Sayedna. You are just showing your hate in plain sight.



Bohra spring
Posts: 1233
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#56

Unread post by Bohra spring » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:20 pm

Biradar did you intentionally avoid answering

Please do not say it is not important that other non bohras do not recognize his greatness ...it is some twisted spin that he by default is Great and does not need validation by others
Bohra spring wrote:
he has not participated in debates or resolved complex issues , being invited as an arbitrator or negotiator of difficult public issues.



Biradar
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#57

Unread post by Biradar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:35 pm

Bohra spring wrote:
Bohra spring wrote:
he has not participated in debates or resolved complex issues , being invited as an arbitrator or negotiator of difficult public issues.
Pray tell me what and why this has anything to do with the reformist movement? The problems of the bohras are internal and not caused by external people not respecting the Sayedna or him not being involved in "difficult public issues".

We should keep in mind that the bohras are an inward looking community. For a long period of their history they were severely persecuted and were very poor. This naturally leads to introversion. The da'is in the past have had to focus all their energies on the community. The Sayedna not having "participated in debates or resolved complex issues" is irrelevant to the betterment of the community as a whole. We can not criticize him for this as far as larger reforms in the community are concerned.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#58

Unread post by porus » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:37 pm

Biradar,

Ismaili metaphysics was invented and developed by great scholars of the Fatimid era, notably Sijistani and Kirmani. Further development during satr was done by the 2nd Dai, Sayedna Ibrahim, who altered some of the earlier metaphysical doctrines and added his own ideas. Since then, there has been hardly any development of Ismaili metaphysics. All subsequent Duaat have only regurgitated the earlier metaphysics.

Sayedna Taher Saifuddin's distinction is that he had an extra-ordinary command over classical Arabic and produced a significant number of literary works elucidating Haqaaiq without extending it in any way. His scholarship is not in connection with comparative religious studies and he wrote primarily only for those who knew Arabic. He did not write for non-Bohras.

In citation during the award of Doctorate to Sayedna Taher Saifuddin, Aligarh University mentioned, primarily, his command over Arabic and not his contribution to philosophy which does not compare favorably with that of al-Sijistani.

Scholarship and its attendant intellectual capacity requires endorsement by peers. Both are apparent in the published works of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin, when it comes to his poetical, not philosophical, works. We also know that he used to conduct sabaks in Saifi Mahal for selected group of people among whom were his ustaad, Shaikh Sajjad Sarangpuri and his mentor, Shaikh Abdeali Imaduddin.

Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin cannot match his father in similar endevours. He has not conducted similar sabaks and he ousted his and his father's Ustaad Shaikh Sarangpuri. Moreover, he does not have the literary output that would be expected of an 'intellectual heavywight'.

If you have any contact with Sayedna's family, you will know that all of Sayedna's bayaans/waaizes are written for him. I too have heard his bayaans. There is little of Haqaaiq in it. There is a lot of oblique interpretation of Quranic ayats which he passes on as taawil. He makes no distinction between taawil and baatin. Let me give you one example of this taawl from him. In describing the four rivers of paradise mentioned in the Quran, he said that one of the rivers points to the chain of Duaat Mutlaqeen. This is oblique and personal interpretation (tawil with lower case t). An intellectual scholar would put this up to his peers for comment. However, he puts it to his followers who are not in position to discuss it with him. And who is to say, who wrote that?

With reference to marsiya 'fulkul Husain', it was not my personal comment. That is why I wrote, "I gather". The reason is that during my attempt at translation of Sayyid al-Shuhada, I had made inquiries about this marsiya and I came across 'reports' that the marsiya had major input from people other than Sayedna.

With reference to architectural renovations, I submit that this does not call for intellectual/scholarly distinction. It needs money, ambition and services of architects of distinction. We do not consider the Mughal Shah Jahan a great intellectual/scholar just because he built the Taj Mahal!

In conclusion, my comment was a studied comment and did not result from any hatred. I emphatically do not hate anyone not even those on this forum with whom I disagree vehemently.



Muslim First
Posts: 6892
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#59

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:37 am

by porus on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:37 am

Biradar,

Ismaili metaphysics was invented and developed by great scholars of the Fatimid era, notably Sijistani and Kirmani. Further development during satr was done by the 2nd Dai, Sayedna Ibrahim, who altered some of the earlier metaphysical doctrines and added his own ideas. Since then, there has been hardly any development of Ismaili metaphysics. All subsequent Duaat have only regurgitated the earlier metaphysics.
Anything invented by human being in religion of Islam is considered 'Bida' and as per one Hadith Prophet will have nothing to do with those inventors or followers.



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Please enlighten me about the whole story

#60

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:23 pm

bro. mf,

i think you are misunderstanding and confusing the term metaphysics in the context of religion, in this case islam.

first of all, let me define what is metaphysics in as concise a manner as possible, although it’s like trying to portray the universe in a grain of sand.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world, although the term is not easily defined. Traditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
1. What is there?
2. What is it like?

The metaphysician attempts to clarify the fundamental notions by which people understand the world, e.g., existence, objects and their properties, space and time, cause and effect, and possibility. Since the beginning of modern philosophy during the seventeenth century, problems that were not originally considered within the bounds of metaphysics have been added to its purview, while other problems considered metaphysical for centuries are now typically subjects of their own separate regions in philosophy, such as philosophy of religion, philosophy of mind, philosophy of perception, philosophy of language, and philosophy of science.

the keyword here is ‘philosophy’. over the centuries, there have been many islamic scholars who have attempted to explain the 'philosophy' of islam. imam jaffer us sadiq was one of its greatest proponents, besides the scholars mentioned by porus. it is widely believed by many, that had it not been for him and others like him who followed to further develop the metaphysical aspects of islam and the quran, islam might have lost ground and would have been in great danger from the greek philosophers who were past masters in logic and metaphysics.

to term the use of metaphysics as 'bida' and dismiss it as interference in religion is taking an extremely narrow-minded and ignorant view. islam is not just in itself a rigid set of rules and a litany of words in a book to be interpreted literally. it is more than a poem, it is more than a parable or epic, it is more than a constitution of laws and behaviour, it is more than a work on sociology, it has a great deal of philosophy locked inside it, which thinking minds have attempted to explore, not to change or pervert the religion, but to better understand it.

when even a poem needs to be interpreted and analysed philosophically to understand its deep, inner meanings in the context of its era and state of mind of its author, then what is the quran but an extremely complex series of all the above works of literature combined + concepts of spirituality, philosophy and esoteric knowledge which mankind of today, even with all their technical and scientific advancements still cannot fully comprehend?

Why would anyone fear the metaphysical analysis and study of islam, when the quran itself challenges you to read and understand it? is it because of the fear that it will stir long held dogmas or deeply entrenched militant positions?

It was precisely because of this original open minded approach to understanding, the spirit of enquiry and research and willingness to engage and adapt, that islam and the muslim world exploded with scientific discoveries, art, literature and music soon after its founding, and it is precisely because of its opposite - intolerance and closed minded rigidity, that it suffers today.