3rd Dai of Satr, Sayyedna Hatim r.a. on "Masoom"

[Doctor]

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Book name: Tanbeeh'ul Ghafeleen
Author: Syyedna Hatim, 3rd Dai of Satr, in Yemen

Location (in book): Beginning (page# 14) of book, where rivayat about Ali a.s. is mentioned: One seeker asked Ali a.s., "Thing bigger than land and sky?" Ali replied, "Bohtaan" (false accusition). Person falsely accusing someone is akin to killing the victim.... few lines after this, Syyedina Hatim r.a. writes:

"KHATA TO HAR SHAQS SE SADIR HOTI REHTI HE. NABI, WASI AUR IMAM'O KE SIVA KOI MASOOM NAHI HE.

[*] Syyedna Hatim became 3rd Dai after 21st Imam Tayyeb a.s. went concealing. So, he is Dai of 'Satr'.

[*] Should the Dai of 'Satr' be masoom, then Syyedna Hatim r.a. should have included his post (dai in satr) in above statement, but he categorically and unambigously declares that only Nabi, Wasi and Imam's are Masoom. Rest no one else.

[*] (A) Should Kothar says that Syyedna Hatim r.a. made mistake in writing above and Dai Mutlaq too is Masoom, then Kothar by default will acknowledge that Dai Mutlaq in 'satr' can do errors because Syyedna Hatim r.a. is Dai of Satr indeed. (B) If Kothar agrees that Dai Mutlaq in 'satr' can not make error then obey the declaration of Syyedna Hatim r.a. who declared, "Othere than Nabi, Wasi and Imam's; no one else is masoom". In either case/situation (A or B) it will prove that Dai Mutlaq in satr is not masoom.

SYYEDNA HATIM R.A. DECLARES; NO ONE INCLUDING DAI MUTLAQ; NONE ARE MASOOM BUT ONLY NABI, WASI AND IMAM'S. TRUTH WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.

Alhamdo Lillah he Rabbil Aalameen.

[progticide]

Mubarak a.k.a Doctor a.k.a. Badrijanab,

Do you know the difference in the management of Dawat between the 3rd Dai and the 20th Dai?

If you dont know, then go and find out the same from the books that you may have, still if you cant find the answer from them then go and ask your Maulvi saheb and still if you dont get the answer then you have only two options left:
1. Keep scratching your head for the rest of your life and continue investigating to find out what was the major difference between the Dawat function between 3rd Dai and 20th Dai, or else
2. Leave your arrogance and hatred behind, repent your sinful conduct and deeds and give your oath of allegiance to the DB Dai.

[Al Zulfiqar]

1. Keep scratching your head for the rest of your life

pesticide,

i have seen you scratching yrself constantly. not just your head, but all over, including some rather sensitive areas. either you have some serious allergy or its an obsessive compulsive disorder.

not to worry, doctor sahib, our senior forum member, has a remedy. he will do this for you out of the goodness of his heart, inspite of you abusing him all the time.

[Adam]

Doctor.
You post an vanish, so i'll expect you not to answer this, since your a coward.

You quote Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen, but conveniently misquote it:
"KHATA TO HAR SHAQS SE SADIR HOTI REHTI HE. NABI, WASI AUR IMAM'O KE SIVA KOI MASOOM NAHI HE."

The text INFACT reads, "Nabi, Wasi, Imams and "Abwaab" (doors) are Ma'soom. (You "forgot" the Abwaab bit)
The Dai Muthlaq is considered in the "Abwaab".
Syedna Ali (5th Dai), calls Syedna Hatim during his lifetime, in one of his treatise - "The Baab of the Imam".

Dai = Baab = Ma'soom.

There are other books by Syedna Hatim where he has discussed the Ismah of The Du'at.
Quoting from him, Syedi Luqmanjee bin Habeebullah confirms the Ismah of the Dai Muthlaq.

You just messed up big time
عرفت شيئا و غابت عنك اشياء
(Translation: You claim to learn One thing, but you're ignorant of much more)


P.S - Your friends on this Forum don't even believe the Nabi or the Imams were Ma'soom.
Why don't you go fight them?
A vanashing trick again?
Coward.

[porus]

You quote Tanbeeh al Ghafeleen, but conveniently misquote it:
"KHATA TO HAR SHAQS SE SADIR HOTI REHTI HE. NABI, WASI AUR IMAM'O KE SIVA KOI MASOOM NAHI HE."

The text INFACT reads, "Nabi, Wasi, Imams and "Abwaab" (doors) are Ma'soom. (You "forgot" the Abwaab bit)
The Dai Muthlaq is considered in the "Abwaab".
Syedna Ali (5th Dai), calls Syedna Hatim during his lifetime, in one of his treatise - "The Baab of the Imam".

Dai = Baab = Ma'soom.

Adam,

I understand that Baab is in 'hiding' along with the Imam. If Baab is in hiding, how can he be the Dai al-Mutlaq at the same time?

I think that no man, including Prophet, can claim 'isma' for himself unless he can point to the claim from God, that is, to a relevant ayat of the Quran. As far as I know, no Prophet, no Wasi, No Imam has claimed 'isma'. So the question is where does the 'isma' of Imams or Duaat come from? (I believe that Panjatan are accorded this status by God.)

Also, just because someone is referred to as Bab, how does that follow that he has 'isma'?

[Adam]

@PORUS
It depends on your interpretation of whom the "Abwaab" are.
We follow our Leaders and what they teach us.
The Dawoodi Bohra belief,in accordance to what our 5th Dai has said for the 3rd Dai is very clear. (as stated above).
Syedna Ali al Waleed calls Syedna Hatim (who's not in Satr with the Imam), the "Dai of the Imam & his Baab".

That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

P.S - Doctor must also accept his mischievous trick to mis-quote the text, and in turn insult Syedna Hatim RA, whom he "claims" to respect.

Dai Muthlaq = Ma'soom
In accordance to True Dawoodi Bohra beliefs.

Chapter closed?

[porus]

@PORUS
It depends on your interpretation of whom the "Abwaab" are.
We follow our Leaders and what they teach us.
The Dawoodi Bohra belief,in accordance to what our 5th Dai has said for the 3rd Dai is very clear. (as stated above).
Syedna Ali al Waleed calls Syedna Hatim (who's not in Satr with the Imam), the "Dai of the Imam & his Baab".

That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

I understand that you wish to take these words literally. However, those of us who choose to think, have questions.

Is it not possible that the 5th Dai's reference to the 3rd Dai as Baab is an emotional 'spur of the moment' honor that he attributed to Sayedna Hatim? He may not have meant the 'Baab' as understood in the theological hierarchy of Imamat both in kashf and satr?

[Adam]

I understand that you wish to take these words literally. However, those of us who choose to think, have questions.
Is it not possible that the 5th Dai's reference to the 3rd Dai as Baab is an emotional 'spur of the moment' honor that he attributed to Sayedna Hatim? He may not have meant the 'Baab' as understood in the theological hierarchy of Imamat both in kashf and satr?

They are the words of a Dai Muthlaq to be - for a current Dai Muthlaq.
No, it isn't an "emotional spur of the moment", every word is thought of and said correctly to each Rutba and its Maqam. He meant what he said exactly in accordance to Fatimi Tyebi beliefs. No less, no more.
Who is more versed in "the theological hierarchy of Imamat both in kashf and satr"? Syedna Ali or You (a person who doesn't accept the Imamat, let alone the Fatimi Tayibi belief)?

PORUS:
I understand you wish to twist what is already said to suit your own ideologies.
You don't believe the Fatimid Imams are infallible. (There's your problem right there, once that is accepted, then move on to the Dai, but don't jump from Infallibility of Panjatan to the Duat, you're skipping a step.)
Dawoodi Bohra beliefs stand as they are, while you go on figuring what you need to follow.

P.S Since you consider yourself an academic, you may want to point out Doctors mischievous tactics.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Dai Muthlaq = Ma'soom
In accordance to True Dawoodi Bohra beliefs.

Chapter closed?

adam,

buddy, you are always in a hurry to close chapters, as if you hold the last word on everything. hold your horses there. are you suffering from severe insecurity or afraid that some new refutation will arise and destroy your carefully laid arguments based on deception and trickery? afraid of being caught with your hizar down?

i have a question for you. if the so-called maasoom dai performs acts against the quran and violates the principles of islam, then would you still persist in calling him maasoom? wouldn't that destroy your argument based on the false premise that all dai's are automatically supposed to be maasoom?

reply if you have the guts and don't run away like a coward, as you like to call others.

[porus]

Syyedina Hatim r.a. writes:

"KHATA TO HAR SHAQS SE SADIR HOTI REHTI HE. NABI, WASI AUR IMAM'O KE SIVA KOI MASOOM NAHI HE.

The text INFACT reads, "Nabi, Wasi, Imams and "Abwaab" (doors) are Ma'soom. (You "forgot" the Abwaab bit)

P.S Since you consider yourself an academic, you may want to point out Doctors mischievous tactics.

Adam,

I do not have the original Arabic manuscript of tanbeeh al-ghafileen. That is why I asked you in a pm to send me the book or the paragraph in original Arabic. Until I have it, I am unable to comment on the translation.

[Adam]

@PORUS
Belief of the Dawoodi Bohras continues to stay the same.

@Al Zulfiqar
I know where you twisted mind is headed.
A leader in every age is necessary. He is the representitive of the Imam who is the representitive of the Prophet. All are Ma'soom. If he is the true representitive and infallible, his actions will never be against the Quran

This thread is about Syedna Hatims text and about the Ismah of Syedna Hatim
That has been clarified by me at least.

Please take your twisted opinions to another thread, and stop polluting every place you walk.

[Humsafar]

If he is the true representitive and infallible, his actions will never be against the Quran.

There is a big IF. But we know and it is all too evident that 52nd Dai actions contradict the Quran, hence he is neither the true representative nor infallible.

[Al Zulfiqar]

A leader in every age is necessary.

Please take your twisted opinions to another thread, and stop polluting every place you walk.

even if that leader is openly flouting the principles of the quran?? are you blind that you do not see the dai's unislamic actions? are you deaf and brain-dead that you cannot hear all the kufr-filled claims made for the dai?

please take your lies and twisted arguments to your abde backside licking threads like maalumaat and zeninfo.

and yes, stop acting like a spoiled brat and throw tantrums when we rain on what you consider your soliloquy. this forum is not your baap ki jaagir that you get to dictate who, when and where someone can participate or not. this is not a sabak and you are not an amil or zaada.

[badrijanab]

Word "Abwaab" you must have added by yourself into the book of Syyedna Hatim a.q.

Syyedna Hatim r.a. has not used the word "Abwaab", he only says about: (1) Anbiya, (2) Ausiya and (3) Aimma a.s. - for categorizing as Masoom.

[Adam]

BadriJanab

Word "Abwaab" you must have added by yourself into the book of Syyedna Hatim a.q.

Sorry, i've verified from several Manuscripts written in Yemen before the Dawat even moved to India.
It maybe your Ahmed Ali (Aka Ahmeq - Udaipur) who has deliberately removed it.

Plus, there are other books by Syedna Hatim, which is quoted by Syedi Luqmanjee.
Number of instances.

[Fateh]

@PORUS
Belief of the Dawoodi Bohras continues to stay the same.

@Al Zulfiqar
I know where you twisted mind is headed.
A leader in every age is necessary. He is the representitive of the Imam who is the representitive of the Prophet. All are Ma'soom. If he is the true representitive and infallible, his actions will never be against the Quran

This thread is about Syedna Hatims text and about the Ismah of Syedna Hatim
That has been clarified by me at least.

Please take your twisted opinions to another thread, and stop polluting every place you walk.

Bhai Adam let put these deficult arabic knowledge aside please eloberate how a man who call him a spiritual leader in Islam shot down lions for fun can be masoom?

[Adam]

It's not

Bhai Adam let put these deficult arabic knowledge

It's the basics of Dawoodi Bohra Fatimi beliefs.
Rightful - Prophet, Imam, Dai Muthlaq = Ma'soom
(Ref: Syedna Hatim & Syedi Luqmanjee)

[Fateh]

It's not

Bhai Adam let put these deficult arabic knowledge

It's the basics of Dawoodi Bohra Fatimi beliefs.
Rightful - Prophet, Imam, Dai Muthlaq = Ma'soom
(Ref: Syedna Hatim & Syedi Luqmanjee)

Bhai salam,
Is the basics of Dawoodi bohara fatemi belief different from rightful Islamic belief?

[MM Bukhari]

this is just so idiotic to prove prophet,imam,dai are masooom, coz if they are masoom, what is the point to follow them?

if a person cannot commit sin, then how come he be a role model for people to follow?

truth is other then ALLAH none is perfect and masoom, and prophet imam and dai has to be in normal human form so that we can take them as our example and try to follow there foot step.




but any ways few guys have lost there thinking capability so I am sure they wont understand this.

[MM Bukhari]

total perfection shud be the only attribute for ALLAH SUBHANU

[pheonix]

total perfection shud be the only attribute for ALLAH SUBHANU

Thats makes you a mushrik, attributing something to Allah

[MM Bukhari]

total perfection shud be the only attribute for ALLAH SUBHANU

Thats makes you a mushrik, attributing something to Allah

99 names of ALLAH are also his attributes, and QURAAN supports them..........so now figure out who is mushriq me (submitter of ALLAH) or you (dai worshiper) ?

[Adam]

*DIVERSION AHEAD*

The thread started off by Doctor where he believes the Prophets and Imams are Ma'soom. He accepts that.
I went on to clarify that the Du'ats are Ma'soom according to the same text by Syedna Hatim. (He left that part out).

That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.
If anyone wants to discuss Ismat altogether, please do it on another thread.

[MM Bukhari]

*DIVERSION AHEAD*

The thread started off by Doctor where he believes the Prophets and Imams are Ma'soom. He accepts that.
I went on to clarify that the Du'ats are Ma'soom according to the same text by Syedna Hatim. (He left that part out).

That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.
If anyone wants to discuss Ismat altogether, please do it on another thread.

and I already proved and gave the reason why prophet,imam and dai cant be masoom and also provided the reason....

even if syedna hatim has wrote some thing in his book which u keep hidden in some bunker of jamiya, it doesnt matters, QURAAN is openly avaliable, and number of times ALLAH has written in QURAAN how prophets have commited mistakes and then apologised.

so now what is above, word of GOD (which is confirmed) or word of syedna hatim(which is not confirmed) ?

[Fateh]

*DIVERSION AHEAD*

The thread started off by Doctor where he believes the Prophets and Imams are Ma'soom. He accepts that.
I went on to clarify that the Du'ats are Ma'soom according to the same text by Syedna Hatim. (He left that part out).

That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.
If anyone wants to discuss Ismat altogether, please do it on another thread.

Bhai salam,
Is the basics of Dawoodi bohara fatemi belief different from rightful Islamic belief?

[progticide]

*DIVERSION AHEAD*

The thread started off by Doctor where he believes the Prophets and Imams are Ma'soom. He accepts that.
I went on to clarify that the Du'ats are Ma'soom according to the same text by Syedna Hatim. (He left that part out).

That is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.
If anyone wants to discuss Ismat altogether, please do it on another thread.

Bhai salam,
Is the basics of Dawoodi bohara fatemi belief different from rightful Islamic belief?

The basics of Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra belief is the ONLY correct, genuine and rightful Islamic belief.

[Humsafar]

The basics of Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra belief is the ONLY correct, genuine and rightful Islamic belief.

So you're saying that idol-worshipping, extortion, coercion, humiliating and demeaning people, robbing them blind, turning them into slaves and transforming religion into a cult and a business amounts to "the ONLY correct, genuine and rightful Islamic belief".

[Al Zulfiqar]

The basics of Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra belief is the ONLY correct, genuine and rightful Islamic belief.

frog pesticide,

you forgot to add to your definition - Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra - 2 words which are most important, viz. Taheri Burhani. so the complete definition of your brand of beliefs should read: "Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Taheri Burhani Bohra". this distinction has to be made because your beliefs over the last 2 syednas have undergone a radical change and significantly differ from the pristine beliefs of earlier 50 dai's.

now that we have correctly defined your beliefs, we can deal with your contention of their being the correct, genuine and rightful beliefs. in your twisted mind and misplaced understanding of islam, your "Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Taheri Burhani Bohra" beliefs can only be justified by distorting, perverting, mutating and stretching the truths and principles of islam to 'manufacture' your beauty masks and hide your lying, cheating, ugly faces.

[pheonix]

The basics of Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra belief is the ONLY correct, genuine and rightful Islamic belief.

frog pesticide,

you forgot to add to your definition - Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra - 2 words which are most important, viz. Taheri Burhani. so the complete definition of your brand of beliefs should read: "Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Taheri Burhani Bohra". this distinction has to be made because your beliefs over the last 2 syednas have undergone a radical change and significantly differ from the pristine beliefs of earlier 50 dai's.

now that we have correctly defined your beliefs, we can deal with your contention of their being the correct, genuine and rightful beliefs. in your twisted mind and misplaced understanding of islam, your "Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Taheri Burhani Bohra" beliefs can only be justified by distorting, perverting, mutating and stretching the truths and principles of islam to 'manufacture' your beauty masks and hide your lying, cheating, ugly faces.

You are such a confused idiot. On some other threads you question the issue of Nass on Syedna Najmuddin(47th Dai) and 'like' posts slinging mud on this character and here you boast about the pristine beliefs of the 50 Dais. Get your stories right before posting. Idiot.

[bohraji]

frog pesticide,

you forgot to add to your definition - Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Bohra - 2 words which are most important, viz. Taheri Burhani. so the complete definition of your brand of beliefs should read: "Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Taheri Burhani Bohra". this distinction has to be made because your beliefs over the last 2 syednas have undergone a radical change and significantly differ from the pristine beliefs of earlier 50 dai's.

now that we have correctly defined your beliefs, we can deal with your contention of their being the correct, genuine and rightful beliefs. in your twisted mind and misplaced understanding of islam, your "Shia Fatemi Ismaili Tayyabi Dawoodi Taheri Burhani Bohra" beliefs can only be justified by distorting, perverting, mutating and stretching the truths and principles of islam to 'manufacture' your beauty masks and hide your lying, cheating, ugly faces.

You are such a confused idiot. On some other threads you question the issue of Nass on Syedna Najmuddin(47th Dai) and 'like' posts slinging mud on this character and here you boast about the pristine beliefs of the 50 Dais. Get your stories right before posting. Idiot.

What are the pristine beleifs of the Dais that you are talking about ?
Do you know what pristine means ?

Are you blind that you cannot see the attrocities of the past two dais and their children and their amils worldwide ?
Do you not have a relative who has not suffered humiliation at the hands of a local Amil. Is it Pristine enough for the Mansoos to clamour for ziayafats at a time when for the first time in Modern History the Bohras are being targeted by terrorists ?
Is this pristine ilm that allows for the mutiliation of female children. ? Is it pristine Islamic teachings that allows for the old,respected members of our society to bend down and offer salaams to a 14 yera old kid ? Is it the demanded by Allah to be charged a fortune to partake in a lavish ziafat by an otherwise simple beleiving bohra. Is it divine to charge out for passes of kadambosi in Kuwait when the majority live in cramped up conditions ?
Where is the pristine beleif gone when properties worth crores have been usurped from trusts that were for the welfare of the community.
I tink you got the meaning of pristine wrong.