Nuss aur Mansoos ki sahi haqiqat

[Doctor]

Docotr Saheb:

The definition of zazira is a body of land surrounded by water all around, Hind, Sindh and Yemen are not zaziras because the have water on only 3 sides and at best can called peninsulas.

What proof do you have that Imam said you can not go for Haj after you become Dai??? why would Imam stop a believer from performing something that is part of the shariat?"

Now the dai(s) travel all over the world to Europe, America, Australia etc etc propagating their dawat, is that legitimate according to the Imam's orders? or they are in defiance of it??

Refer any (authentic) history book, u will find my contention to be true i.e. you cannot produce one book that says that Dai went to haj after becoming Dai.

These two are going abroad not to solidify Shariyat but to make material gains.

FYI - a dai in satr is not supposed to publicly pitch to convert non-muslims/non-bohras to Bohras. This can be very well understand by comment of Ajab Bu d/o Syyedna Qutbuddin Shaheed (Ahmedabad), "Andar padharo aap, andar padharo aap, apan quom che gareeb." Refer to the library section of this website for complete details.

[porus]

Imam has made limits for Dai's in 'zazia', Hind/Sindh/Yemen - Dai Mutlaq cannot leave his zaaira, so a person after becoming Dai cannot go to Haj, as Saudi Arabia is in different Zazira.

Is it not true that Imam's jurisdiction was divided into several 'regions', each region being called a Jazeera" Is it also not true that the senior-most Dai in each Jazeera was called Dai al-Jazeera?

Is it not true that Dai al-Mutlaq has the whole world as his 'Jazeera' and that the limit of Dai al-Jazeera does not apply to him? I understand that in satr, the office of Dai al-Jazeera along with that of Dai al-balagh has been abolished.

Would you please comment on the above questions?

[porus]

Is it not true that Imam's jurisdiction was divided into several 'regions', each region being called a Jazeera" Is it also not true that the senior-most Dai in each Jazeera was called Dai al-Jazeera?

Let me clarify. Imam's jurisdiction in connection with the Dawat activities was divided into several regions.

Jazeera, in addition to its meaning as an 'island' also used to mean a 'region' Plural of 'jazeera' is 'jazaa'ir'. Al-Jazaa'ir, literally meaning 'the regions', is the also the Arabic name of the North African country Algeria.

[Bohra spring]

Guys the more jazeera stuff you try spinning the more questionable the whole logic becomes. It seems the authors of these "so called knowledge" were going astray from Islam and living in their philosophical magic land.

Claiming one could go for hajj before becoming a Diai and not after, a daughter of a Diai writing it becomes a fact and not fiction ....off course now the abdes will have been taught the current diais can go on hajj because they have been permitted by the imam.

In all tawil surely there must be some reason what hajj is for ?

That is further than what some Muslims who think it is a ritual to go round the kaba , while others also regard it as a large Muslim reunion as a sign of solidarity and exchange of ideas and issues.

Now if that is the case why would an imam or true Diai of Islam miss such an opportunity to meet his followers from every known jazeera and of every type of race, language and diversity. where else would he get such a large gathering to prove his authentic leadership ,

My take is the Diai did never consider that Islam could be so diverse...they were more comfortable as village chiefs and their world was easy if it was one region. To make that easy they created self explanation and justification.

Can you imagine the reception he would get if he tried declaring he s the top leader and rep of the Ahlul Bayt ....just visualize that in 2012 muffy in Arafat tried to take the loud speaker and make this declaration in middle of 2 million muslim pilgrims that he is the Diai must law in waiting, sultan of sultans, holder to the key of janaat, Haqiqi this and that, drop and do sajada, repated in Arabic, French , English , Turkish , Indonesian , Bosnian, Urdu , Farsi , swahili, and all languages spoken by a billion Muslims, ....there is chance many would be relieved and rush to collect ejamaat card forms and apply for ziafats including the saud family !

[Doctor]

Dear Porus bhai, I will revert with my comments after few days, Inshallah. Thanks.

[level_headed]

murkh Doctor and badrijanabatdar,
Dushmani na kaaran ketloo jhoot bolso.
This is from our history of 23rd Dai Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin (Yemen) who is buried in Zabid 10 miles from the Red Sea Coast.
"Je waqt aap ye Haj no iraado farmaayo ane Zabid tashreef laaya to Sharafuddin Zaidi ye aap ne zahar pohchavano iraado kidho ane safina ma je peeva vaaste paani raakhu hathu temaa zahar milaavi didhu. Aap ye paani chaakhu ane ahsaas thayee gayo ke aa paani ma zahar milaava ma aayu chhe. Aap foran Zabid vaapas vali gaya. Te baad aap thodi muddat rahya ane Zabid ma vafaat thaya. "
Please note that this happened while Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin was the Daai of the time.
There your theory of Duat not performing Haj goes up in smoke.
Just to remind our readers, what these Shaitans have made up stories and how they have gone up in smoke
-There was a story brought by another Shaitaan called al Zulfikar . He came and announced on this forum that I have a story which will shake everybody and bring the daawat down. He brought a ghost and daakan story which sounded like a Ramsay movie. I think everybody on the forum ridiculed this story and ullu bhai - sorry jullu bhai - sulked and lied low for a while.

[Adam]

This is a perfect example of diverting the topic to add more confusion.
This thread is about Nass, so keep it at it.

First Doctor says there was No Nass on Syedna Najmuddin, I gave factual evidence of Nass:

- Syedna Mohammed Badruddin did Nass on Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin twice in public.
Pune Waaz in Moharram 1254H & Surat Moharram Waaz in 1256H
- Records of the hand written letter by Syedna Mohammed Badruddin himself proclaiming Nass on Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin "Risalah Takbeer Sakina Fateh" Page 275 - 277
- There are several letters written to Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin from his Hudood including Syedi Abdeali Imaduddin and Miya Saheb Wali bhai using the words "المنصوص عليه مرار" - (He who had the proclamation of Nass done on him multiple times) "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 181-3 & "Risala Rawdate Firdaws Page 165
- 49th Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA was a witness to the Nass, and he has recorded it in his "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 169

Then he starts talking about Tayammum.
That again was proved to be wrong.

Then he says:

Imam Jaffer Sadik a.s. has made prophecy about such situation, and gave solution: to be associated with last one till the next comes. So, we are associated with Molana syyedna Dai Mutlaq aaka Mohammed Badruddin a.q.

Again, he has misunderstood it, or deliberately confusing it.
Imam Sadiqs prophecy is for the IMAM in SATR, where he said there will be a time where the Imam will not be known to the people (ie, he'll be in hiding).
1. This is applicable for the Imam during his Satr.
2. It also meas that there IS an Imam PRESENT (somewhere), and the people must believe that the Imam is there and hold onto the last Imam they knew. (The same way Dawoodi Bohras do with the 21st Imam)
2A. By this logic, if you apply it to the Dai, then there SHOULD be a DAI in satr also after the 46th, and you don't know who he is, but you are holding on to the 46th in arrival of the next Dai. So what you're tallking about is Satr in Satr! Plus, does that mean that you belive there is a 47, 48 etc Dai, but he's in hiding?

All these have been proven wrong from what I have stated above. The Nass has been declared on Syedna Najmuddin.

Now, all this discussion on the Jazeeras.
The concept of 3 Jazeeras is simple.
1. The Dai Muthlaq can travel anywhere he wishes, and his duristiction is everywhere.
2. But, There will always be a Dawat in Yemen, Hind and Sindh.

Now about HAJJ.
1. In light of the above, the Dai Muthlaq may travel anywhere, including Haj
2. Many Dais wanted to go for Hajj, but were not able to because of health or other administrative hinderances.
3. The 47th Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin was the first Dai to go on Haj. After he returned from Haj, many Hudood congratulated him on being the first DAI to go on Haj. The word Dai Muthlaq is also used in one verse.
4. The 13th Dai Syedna Ali was invited by the Sultan of his time to accompany him on Haj. He was ILL and not able to go, therefore he sent his Mazoon. (Syedna Ali wanted to go, but couldn't) - Ref: Muntaza' al Akhbar (If there was a Jazeera problem the author would have mentioned it in the reasons for not going.)
5. The 14th Dai Syedna Abul Muttalib was also invited for Haj by the Sultan. The author says that after the death of the 13th Dai, the 14th Dai was pressured with too many responsibilities of becomming the new Dai, taking care of the Dawat and its affairs and the increasing numbers of enemies of Da'wat. Ref: Muntaza' al Akhbar (If there was a Jazeera problem the author would have mentioned it in the reasons for not going.)
6. The 43rd Dai Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin also planned and hoped to go for Haj and Yemen Ziyarat, but couldn't go. (If there was a Jazeera problem the author would have mentioned it in the reasons for not going.)

@KAKA AKELA - You had your opinion about me.
Almost everything you said is un true.
And i'm acting by myself.

[pheonix]

These guys "doctor" and "porus" are illiterates. They have ingested many(stolen)Dawat books but their faulty digestive system makes them regurgitate it as shit.
There is no connection between Dai-ul-Mutlaq and Dai-ul_Jazeera. They are complete different Huds. The Dai-ul-Jazeera cannot go out of his jusrisdiction but the other Hudoods(above them), surely can.

[SBM]

^
Typical Abde response when can not reply or debate properly they turn to mocking like Kotahri Goons do in their Waez
Tumhara Koi Qasoor nahi jeshi laathi weshi Bhens ( I am sure you must have seen the walking stick)

[Admin]

Uploading these images on behalf of "Doctor":

[Doctor]

- Records of the hand written letter by Syedna Mohammed Badruddin himself proclaiming Nass on Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin "Risalah Takbeer Sakina Fateh" Page 275 - 277
- There are several letters written to Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin from his Hudood including Syedi Abdeali Imaduddin and Miya Saheb Wali bhai using the words "المنصوص عليه مرار" - (He who had the proclamation of Nass done on him multiple times) "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 181-3 & "Risala Rawdate Firdaws Page 165
- 49th Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA was a witness to the Nass, and he has recorded it in his "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 169

(1) Takbeer sakeena fath e mubeen risalat ur ramzaniya and (2) Tazkara e labeeb risalat ur ramzaniya - both books are written by "Gasibs" thus cannot be trusted and further in these two books no where it is categorically mentioned that "Nuss-a-Jali" was done on Najmuddin sahab. I have sent the relevant pages to Admin for publishing here for everyone perusal.

What I have written in these posts are some examples, there are toooo much more.

Thanks Admin for posting those pages.

Janab adam bhai, aapne above two books ka reference diya yeh assume karke ki aisa bol kar aap sabko dhokha de doge! Aap proof nahi dete ho; sirf manghadanth likhne se kaam nahi chalega! Aapke quoted above pages ko Admin ne publish kar liya he - aapke quoted pages aap khud hi check kar lijiye - isme kahi bhi categorically aisa nahi likha he ki Syyedna Badruddin a.q. ne "Nass-a-Jali" Najmuddin sahab per ki ho!!!!!

[Adam]

It's a waste of time talking to an illiterate.
The first two images (4 pages) are in context and they answer the question at hand very clearly.
Nass done on Syedna Najmuddin (47th Dai)

(IMAGE 1 & 2)
Page 276
(Line 3rd from Last)
From Mohammed Badruddin (46th Dai - in HIS writing) to his Brother and companion, the 3rd in Hudoon, the greatest hudood of deen, and the greatest of the scholars in ilm and yaqeen. (written in 1255H)

Page 277
(Letter from Syedna Mohammed Badruddin)
(Second from last)
After the 45th Dai passed away, I ran the affairs of dawat (Page 278) with help of my brother and companion, and my greatest helper, who is the Abd of my Qadir, and the star of my deen. I took him as the greatest of my pillars, and the greatest of my A'yaan (people), and have made him my Mukasir. I consider him just like me in his Mafaakhir (glory?).

Page 278
(Second Half)
Syedna Mohammed Badruddin did Nass on Syedna Najmuddin on 9th Moharram in Pune, and again 9th Moharram in Surat


(IMAGE 3) - (Which Risalah not sure)
Page 177
2nd Qasida, 2nd Bayt
You are the one with the Amr (order), tasleem and Arsh (Takt/Seat of Power) from Syedna Mohammed Badruddin.

Your Mohib (one who has your love) is the Mohib of Allah, and your enemy (confused Proggies/Reformists) is the Enemy of allah

(Last Line)
Who else except Syedna Badruddin (46) and Syedna Najmuddin (47) is there?

Page 178
Is an introduction about something to some on page 179 (missing) about the Nass of Syedna Badruddin on Syedna Najmuddin.


IMAGE 4
Page 165 (half way)
Letter from Syedi Jamaluddin to Syedna Najmuddin.
Page 166 Letter starts, but the main text which we are referring to is on 167 or 168, where he calls him the Mansoos (Nass done on him many times)

CONCLUDING NOTES:
Some text is missing as pointed out.
But, the above text is sufficient to clarify the Nass on Syedna Najmuddin:
- By Syedna Badruddins letters where he uses the words "brother & companion" (the same way the Prophet did Nass on Imam Ali - You do believe in Imam Ali don't you?), and the "greatest of all the hudood", and says Syedna Najmuddin is just like him
- By the words of the Hudoods (pointed out above)

So, Nass is clear.
HAJ point is clear
Jazira Point is clear

Doctor is an ignorant illiterate & doesn't know what he's talking about : Crystal Clear!

[progticide]

Adam Bhai,
Request you to kindly translate Page 278, complete second part (Image 2). Use the image and kindly provide a english translation of the above mentioned portion.

All forum members, please make note that the above images of the Risalah are offered by the reformist flagbearer Doctor a.k.a Mubarak a.k.a Badrijanab himself.

[porus]

(1) Takbeer sakeena fath e mubeen risalat ur ramzaniya and (2) Tazkara e labeeb risalat ur ramzaniya - both books are written by "Gasibs" thus cannot be trusted .......

Who really were the authors of 'Risalat Ramzaniyya' and why do you refer to them as 'Ghasib's (Usurpurs)?

[porus]

Page 278 (Image 2) posted above by Admin on Doctor's behalf states:

"wa yubayyinu nassa-hu alyahi an-nass al-jali al-waadih"

"And he declares nass on him, a clear nass-e-jali" (Note the present tense referring to a past activity. This is normal.)

This bears out Adam's assertion that the document mentions nass from 46th to 47th Dai. However, this is third person reporting. Adam mentions letters written by the 46th Dai. There is no evidence of this in the images posted.

It is my understanding that Nass was done in presence of witnesses, whose names I have mentioned previously. Both 51st and 52nd Dai have mentioned these names but I do not believe that they have mentioned any letter written by the 46th Dai.

The question is that if the nass was pronounced in public Majaalis both in Pune and in Surat, why is there a dispute at all?

[Doctor]

Adam bhai, Progticide bhai and Porus bhai - please wait till coming Monday. Inshallah.

[porus]

This bears out Adam's assertion that the document mentions nass from 46th to 47th Dai. However, this is third person reporting. Adam mentions letters written by the 46th Dai. There is no evidence of this in the images posted.

Just to be clear, I am referring to a letter, if there is one, from Sayedna Badruddin(46) announcing nass on Sayedna Najmuddin (47).

[pheonix]

Page 278 (Image 2) posted above by Admin on Doctor's behalf states:

"wa yubayyinu nassa-hu alyahi an-nass al-jali al-waadih"

"And he declares nass on him, a clear nass-e-jali" (Note the present tense referring to a past activity. This is normal.)

This bears out Adam's assertion that the document mentions nass from 46th to 47th Dai. However, this is third person reporting. Adam mentions letters written by the 46th Dai. There is no evidence of this in the images posted.

It is my understanding that Nass was done in presence of witnesses, whose names I have mentioned previously. Both 51st and 52nd Dai have mentioned these names but I do not believe that they have mentioned any letter written by the 46th Dai.

The question is that if the nass was pronounced in public Majaalis both in Pune and in Surat, why is there a dispute at all?

A stupid assertion. Nass done on Ghadeer in front of 70 thousand people. And look at the disputes.

[Adam]

278 Second Part Translation:
Mowlana Mohammed Badruddin has spoken about Mowlana Najmuddin in a public gathering where all were present in Pune some years back on the 9th of Moharram and again in Surat on the 9th of Moharram in the year he passed away. And he discussed the "Nass e Jalih Wazeh" (clear Nass) that is as clear as a shining full moon. And Syedna Mohammed Badruddin said:....... (end of Page 278)

@PORUS

Adam mentions letters written by the 46th Dai. There is no evidence of this in the images posted.

First Image starting from the second part of Page 275 is an introduction to the letter written by Syedna Mohammed Badruddin in his writing (page 275 second last line) to Syedna Najmuddin (where the text of the Letter starts on the second part of page 276), where says: (This letter is to) Syedna Najmuddin From Mohammed Badruddin (46th Dai - in HIS writing) to his Brother and companion, the 3rd in Hudoon, the greatest hudood of deen, and the greatest of the scholars in ilm and yaqeen. (written in 1255H)

And on Page 277 Second part, it is the Risalah Nai' by Syedna Mohammed Badruddin where he talks about the death of the 45th Dai before him, Syedna Taiyeb Zainuddin. In that he says:
After the 45th Dai passed away, I ran the affairs of dawat (Page 278) with help of my brother and companion, and my greatest helper, who is the Abd of my Qadir, and the star of my deen. I took him as the greatest of my pillars, and the greatest of my A'yaan (people), and have made him my Mukasir. I consider him just like me in his Mafaakhir (glory?).

@PORUS

The question is that if the nass was pronounced in public Majaalis both in Pune and in Surat, why is there a dispute at all?

- As already mentioned by Phoenix, the same was for Ghadeer, but those who wanted to reject it started making up stories, just like these fools started making up concepts of Nazim etc. (same way the Sunnis translated the word "Mowla" to mean cousin!)
- Secondly, most of the people were present and accept it, and there's a very small (proggy/reformist/confused group) that doesn't accept it.
- The Nass has been done multiple times, in secret and in public, in Pune and Surat, in the letters, Nass e Khafi and Jali.
You're question is correct, it seems very strange that these Proggies still don't accept it. Just comes to show their thick confused heads

[Humsafar]

Reformists, progressives DO NOT care about this Nuss business. This is only of academic and historical interest, and in my view, a pointless argument.
The problems of Bohras is not Nuss but "Nussbandi" - the moral and spiritual castration of Bohras.

[Al Zulfiqar]

The problems of Bohras is not Nuss but "Nussbandi" - the moral and spiritual castration of Bohras.

[porus]

Adam,

Thank you. I personally am satisfied that the 46th Dai properly appointed the 47th Dai. I agree with your rendering of the translation of the images but the passages do not explicitly state that 'nass' was made in the letter by Sayedna Badruddin.

I think that there were respected elders who witnessed the nass. The reason for dispute appears to be based on the absence of explicit mention of nass in writing. That is why the idea of 'nazim' was introduced perhaps by the Opposition to Sayedna Taher Saifuddin in court cases. As I stated before, there can be no agreement by Daawat for use of the word 'nazim'.

Yes, I agree that we are not in position to add anything useful to this discussion. Reformists do not question the issue of nass. I believe this stems from a section in Udaipur. Maybe Doctor Saheb has further input.

[Humsafar]

Yes, I agree that we are not in position to add anything useful to this discussion. Reformists do not question the issue of nass. I believe this stems from a section in Udaipur. Maybe Doctor Saheb has further input.

Yes, it stems from a very small but very vocal and increasingly aggressive section of Udaipur reformists. And this hardcore conservative section is influenced, I believe, by Dr. Mehdi Hasan from Malegaon. The Malegaon reformist jamat has never been part of the official reform movement because of differences on this particular issue.

[Adam]

@PORUS
The letter doesn't use the words Nass, but the context is very clear, Syedna Najmuddin is next in line.
The Nass happened in public.
There were witnesses incluing the 2 you mentioned and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (49th Dai) himself.
And the Hudood have also confirmed this (as mentioned before)

@HUMSAFAR
Tell this Mehdi guy to read the above posts. He'll figure out he's wrong.

Reformists, progressives DO NOT care about this Nuss business.

Well they should care.
The whole problem with the general Muslims is that they don't accept the Nass on Mowlana Ali AS, and you know where that lead them towards.

[anajmi]

And what has the valid Nuss led you towards? Misinterpretation of the Quran? Sajda to the Dai? Idol worship?

Can any abde idiot see the big picture over here? Now this is the condition of the bohras. Imagine if every muslim were to do sajda to this corrupt Dai!! Islam and Muslims are free from idol worship because they have rejected this Nuss business.

I say, let the bohras be an example of what the muslims should not do!!

[SBM]

Adam
The whole problem with the general Muslims is that they don't accept the Nass on Mowlana Ali AS, and you know where that lead them towards.

And what lead to splinter in Bohras like Alavi-Sulemani-Yemani and Dawoodi despite they all accepted Naas on Mowalana Ali AS

[Humsafar]

Reformists, progressives DO NOT care about this Nuss business.

Well they should care.
The whole problem with the general Muslims is that they don't accept the Nass on Mowlana Ali AS, and you know where that lead them towards.

Adam,
Are you a retard or what? I was referring specifically to this 46th/47th controversy you dolt. Why bring Maula Ali into all this? If reformist accept this Nuss business upto the current Dai then why would they have problems with the Nuss of Maula Ali? And this discussion is not about "general muslims".

[SBM]

Adam,
Are you a retard or what?

Please do not insult RETARD

[humanbeing]

Adam
The whole problem with the general Muslims is that they don't accept the Nass on Mowlana Ali AS, and you know where that lead them towards.

And what lead to splinter in Bohras like Alavi-Sulemani-Yemani and Dawoodi despite they all accepted Naas on Mowalana Ali AS

Isnt Entire Shia Chain divided at various level of Imams and then further Sub Sect among Dais. Controversy over Nuss, has caused rift over 100s of years.

[Rationalist]

Well they should care.
The whole problem with the general Muslims is that they don't accept the Nass on Mowlana Ali AS, and you know where that lead them towards.

Adam,
Are you a retard or what? I was referring specifically to this 46th/47th controversy you dolt. Why bring Maula Ali into all this? If reformist accept this Nuss business upto the current Dai then why would they have problems with the Nuss of Maula Ali? And this discussion is not about "general muslims".

They do this every time. They will prove nuss, they will prove the Dai is Haq na Dai, and now the Haq na Dai can do ANYTHING he wants. If you question him, you question nuss, and therefore you're like the ones who question nuss on Ali. Excellent logic, I must say.