Nuss aur Mansoos ki sahi haqiqat

[seeker110]

Money in the Masjid stinks high Heaven.

[Adam]

Adam bhai, Progticide bhai and Porus bhai - please wait till coming Monday. Inshallah.

I shall wait. Eagerly

[wise_guy]

there is a school of thought, predominantly prevalent among the 48'rs but also among many disillusioned dawoodi bohras, that the dawat has been usurped from the 47th onwards and that it explains the sudden transformation of the dawat from spiritualism and piety to one linked to materialism, extreme greed and worldly ambitions.

i had once hosted a prominent 48'r at my house many years ago. his knowledege of the quran, of arabic and our deen was most impressive, to say the least. any questions that i or the others attending asked him, he simply opened the quran, looked for the appropriate page, para and line and gave us our reply! this gentleman maintained that the dynasty which took over after the 46th, is the handiwork of iblis and the last 6 dai's are his chosen agents. he also made a prediction that the oppression, greed, tyranny and evil of this family will continue to increase (as we watch it unfold before our own eyes) to such an extent that a point will come when even the cowardly, impotent and gullible bohras will eventually be unable to bear it anymore and will rise up in revolt. that's when the rebellion of udaipur will seem puny in comparison. he also mentioned that they have found the hidden imam after great efforts, having studied many of our scriptures where secret hints are given. they are protecting this imam and his family and have verified his credentials after exhaustive sessions with him. in fact, he mentioned that the imam gave his own proofs and his brilliance, devotion to islam and his piousness are so godlike that they have no further doubts about him. he also claimed that this imam is in mortal danger from the dai and will reveal himself only when the bohras rise in revolt and overthrow the present dynasty and all its members and administration. this imam, he said, lives a very simple, but honest hardworking life from his own meagre income, refuses all handouts or trappings of position and status.

i was dumbfounded by these revelations, they sounded too far fetched and incredulous, but when this gentleman made a comparison with the fairy tales that the last 2 syednas esp. have woven, of being in direct communication with the imam, of throwing the purdah across the qibla after namaaz while the dai is directly talking with the imam, collecting salaams in his name, of getting ilhams from him etc, etc. then these claims didnt seem so crazy after all. he even invited me to visit him next in mumbai and if i was genuinely convinced and willing to study many books and scriptures to open my mind, then maybe he would take me to this true imam.

i leave the readers to judge and reach their own conclusions, esp. after seeing the actions of the past 3 dai's incl the mansoos.

Looks like some creative man's soul who could have been a movie story writer and who has not attained salvation has gotten inside Mr Zulfikar... or that Mr. Zulfikar was high on some substance while writing this post. Mr. Zulfikar, alcohol or other addictive stuff are haraam.

[wise_guy]

Doctor has a habit of posting and then vanishing.

I second your question MMBukhari. If you don't accept the current Syedna, then

mein baar baar poch chuka hu aur ek baar fir poochtaa hu, agar syedna taher saifuddin aur burhanuddin sahab dai mutlaq nahi hain to fir sahi DAi kon hai?

To answer the question:

- Syedna Mohammed Badruddin did Nass on Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin twice in public.
Pune Waaz in Moharram 1254H & Surat Moharram Waaz in 1256H
- Records of the hand written letter by Syedna Mohammed Badruddin himself proclaiming Nass on Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin "Risalah Takbeer Sakina Fateh" Page 275 - 277
- There are several letters written to Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin from his Hudood including Syedi Abdeali Imaduddin and Miya Saheb Wali bhai using the words "المنصوص عليه مرار" - (He who had the proclamation of Nass done on him multiple times) "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 181-3 & "Risala Rawdate Firdaws Page 165
- 49th Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA was a witness to the Nass, and he has recorded it in his "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 169

These are some examples, there are much more.

Now, DOCTOR.
You believe there were 46 Dais, and then the ball just stopped there? No leader after that? Did the Imam come and tell you'll everything stops right now? After all it is the Imam who appointed the Du'ats, so only he can close their office. Did he come and tell you or (Ahmeq) of Udaipur?
If you believe in the concept of "Nazim", you have also openly insulted the 52nd Dai from your above post, so you've not even accepted him as a Nazim, so you don't even have a Nazim right now.
So who handles your affairs now?

Leave it.
You'll don't care about Dais or Nazims. It's just hatred that makes you blind.
Sad story.

This website and forum has been hijacked by people who are frustrated in life and are just here for entertainment than real reforms and just insulting Syedna Saheb (TUS) and Daawat. It seems there are a lot of non Bohris who are jealous and just taking out their fire here on the forum.

[progticide]

Yes, I agree that we are not in position to add anything useful to this discussion. Reformists do not question the issue of nass. I believe this stems from a section in Udaipur. Maybe Doctor Saheb has further input.

Yes, it stems from a very small but very vocal and increasingly aggressive section of Udaipur reformists. And this hardcore conservative section is influenced, I believe, by Dr. Mehdi Hasan from Malegaon. The Malegaon reformist jamat has never been part of the official reform movement because of differences on this particular issue.

This character Mehdi Hasan was also a student of Ahmed ali. After Ahmed ali was kicked out of Jamia he tried to set up his shop in Udaipur using this Nuss recipe to incite further divide and friction among the reformists against the Dai and administration. But when Ahmed ali failed to gain any favourable audience in Udaipur and was not offered the community Headship (he had thought he would be welcomed with open arms and made Head of the reformists), he shut his shop in Udaipur and made his way to Malegaon. There he found favour with the rebels of Malegaon and garnered some students under his banner. This Mehdi Hasan was also one of them and went on to become one of the favourite students of Ahmedali, getting totally indoctrined by Ahmedali. Following the revolt in Udaipur, the reformists of Udaipur and Malegaon found common grounds, both been banished from the DB community, hence decided to share resources. That's where this Mehdi Hasan and few other students of Ahmedali, who are now acting as reformists Maulvis and teachers in usurped masjids and schools in Udaipur got the opportunity to poison the minds of the present and future reformists generations with the false non-issue of Nuss.

This munafiq Doctor a.k.a. Mubarak, also a student of Ahmedali, is a Marketing agent for Udaipur Region to propogate this false Nuss issue among the Udaipur reformist population thereby causing further schism among the Udaipur reformists and creating unbridgeable gap between the Udaipur reformists and mainstream DBs, dimming any hope for reconciliation. By doing this, he is hoping to shore up the numbers of his followers by getting the udaipur reformists population accept this false Nuss doctrine and prevent any hopes for them to join the mainstream DBs in future.

Doctor a.k.a Mubarak is making every effort to achieve this goal. He is using multiple channels to popularise this false issue which has never been on the reformists agenda of the udaipur reformists. He is using this forum as one of the medium. Apart from this, he is also using Facebook group of reformists, which is a closed group of reformists, and used heavily by the expatriate reformists population of Udaipur based in Middle east and US, where he is publishing this false content and trying to attract their attention and curiosity to this false and absurd subject.

I hope some honest reformists who atleast agree that whatever I have mentioned above is true and correct would act bipartisan for this post and show their acceptance of the above fact by liking this post.

[Humsafar]

Pesticide,
Your analysis of the situation, as far as I can tell, is accurate. It is true that these extremist elements - acolytes of Sheikh Ahmed Ali - are trying their best and using multiple fora to generate emotion and hysteria by bringing up this Nuss and other such unnecessary issues. But these are only a handful of people, and I'm happy to report that they are totally marginalised. The reformists of Udaipur are smart and moderate, they had the wisdom to sideline even Sheikh Ahmed Ali when he tried to throw his weight around, so what chance do his students stand? Nobody pays much attention to them, we in Udaipur are focused on reforms and refuse to distracted by religious and succession issues. At worst, these extremists are minor irritants, nothing more. The only downside is that they misrepresent the reform movement, create confusion and thus harm the cause.

[wise_guy]

Can't the moderator/admin of this website put in some mechanism wherein people posting such misleading and false propoganda can be banned. Because, such propoganda can mislead a lot of people and thwart the purpose of this forum.

[Muslim First]

Psticide
That's where this Mehdi Hasan and few other students of Ahmedali, who are now acting as reformists Maulvis and teachers in usurped masjids and schools in Udaipur got the opportunity to poison the minds of the present and future reformists generations with the false non-issue of Nuss.

How much more you can poison Bohra mind when it is totally poisoned by this crazy version of Islam?

[Doctor]

There are several letters written to Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin from his Hudood including Syedi Abdeali Imaduddin and Miya Saheb Wali bhai using the words "المنصوص عليه مرار" - (He who had the proclamation of Nass done on him multiple times) "Risalah Tazkerat Labeeb" Page 181-3 & "Risala Rawdate Firdaws Page 165

Syyedi Hibtullah Jamaluddin Al Mazoon Molana Badruddin a.s. na wafat baad muddat madidat baad Jaamnagar si Surat padhara. Salam waste bhi nahi aaya - aapni kitaab AL TAFWEEZ naami khat si to yez ilm thaye che. Surat na haalat si aap bilkul bekhabar hata ane Tahir Saifuddin sahab yeh ihna kaagazo RAMZANI RISALA ma likha che je kaagazo ma "المنصوص عليه مرار" (yani Najmuddin sahab per baar-baar nuss thai) jiva jumlao ane tareef che. Te sagla kagazo Imaduddeen sahab na wafat 1271 hijri pehle na che. Teh pache Jamaluddin sahab q.s. Surat padhara che. Aap Bombay ma hata ane khat likho to sun 1273 hijri no che je waqt Husamuddin sahab saathe den (karz) ni adai khatir Bombay gaya tha.

Matlab ki Tahir Saifuddin sahab yeh Jamaluddin sahab na je khatoot publish keeda che te ehva waqt ma likha hoova che ki je waqt ma aap Jamaluddin sahab Surat na nuss babat alamnaak hadsa si bekhabar hata.

Yeh khutoot ma (aa sagla khatoot Tahir Saifuddin sahab report keeda che) je tareef ane nuss babat je kai likhu hoye te radd (negated) kehvaye kim ke Jamaluddin sahab yeh ihvi halat ma Najmuddin sahab ni tareef ane etiraaf likhu ke sahi haalat si yeh bekhabar hata.

[Doctor]

(1) Takbeer sakeena fath e mubeen risalat ur ramzaniya and (2) Tazkara e labeeb risalat ur ramzaniya - both books are written by "Gasibs" thus cannot be trusted .......

Who really were the authors of 'Risalat Ramzaniyya' and why do you refer to them as 'Ghasib's (Usurpurs)?

Above first risala was written in year 1367 hijri. And second risala was written in year 1369 hijri - both by inked by Tahir Saifuddin sahab.

Syyedna Molana Mohammad Badruddin a.q. was martyred in year 1256 hijri i.e. these Risala's were written 110 years after martyrdom of Syyedna Badruddin a.q.

[Doctor]

Page 278 (Image 2) posted above by Admin on Doctor's behalf states:

"wa yubayyinu nassa-hu alyahi an-nass al-jali al-waadih"

"And he declares nass on him, a clear nass-e-jali" (Note the present tense referring to a past activity. This is normal.)

This bears out Adam's assertion that the document mentions nass from 46th to 47th Dai. However, this is third person reporting. Adam mentions letters written by the 46th Dai. There is no evidence of this in the images posted.

Porus bhai, refer bold red text above - that is the catch, you are correct in your observation.

The question is that if the nass was pronounced in public Majaalis both in Pune and in Surat, why is there a dispute at all?

There was no Nuss-a-Jli pronounced in Pune or in Surat otherwise it should COMPULSORILY be mentioned in Risala Naie (Batshatul Kubra) written by Najmuddin sahab.

[Doctor]

- Last post mistakenly duplicated -

[Doctor]

murkh Doctor and badrijanabatdar,
Dushmani na kaaran ketloo jhoot bolso.
This is from our history of 23rd Dai Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin (Yemen) who is buried in Zabid 10 miles from the Red Sea Coast.
"Je waqt aap ye Haj no iraado farmaayo ane Zabid tashreef laaya to Sharafuddin Zaidi ye aap ne zahar pohchavano iraado kidho ane safina ma je peeva vaaste paani raakhu hathu temaa zahar milaavi didhu. Aap ye paani chaakhu ane ahsaas thayee gayo ke aa paani ma zahar milaava ma aayu chhe. Aap foran Zabid vaapas vali gaya. Te baad aap thodi muddat rahya ane Zabid ma vafaat thaya. "
Please note that this happened while Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin was the Daai of the time.
There your theory of Duat not performing Haj goes up in smoke.

Maha aqalmand, sabse adhik budhdhiman, duniya ke sabse chatur manas, super-computer se jayda intelligent, budhdhi-jeevi, chatur jise chatur kahe, maha gyani, rishi, asli ke chacha-chowdhri, mahanubhav Aali Janab level_headed sahab,

Lets begin with one statement made by your accomplice Bhai Adam, "The 47th Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin was the first Dai to go on Haj. After he returned from Haj, many Hudood congratulated him on being the first DAI to go on Haj." So, to begin with beginning, no rightful Dai Mutlaq from 1st till 46th went to Haj; no one left their Zazira.

You wrote above contention from which book? Please quote the precise text and if possible also quote the paragraphs below and after your contended paragraph so the context should be established?

Remember "aap ye Haj no iraado farmaayo" is not equal to "performing haj". If you wish (iraado farmaayo) to marry with Uma Bharti, Sadhwi Ritambhra and one Kothar shahzadi then it is not equal to actually marrying them! All rightful Dai Mutlaq 1 till 46th have not went to Haj - that is the unalterable fact. If Yusuf Abdul Qadir Najmuddin sahab, the 1st Nazim is going to Haj is actually the proof his amal is not in the line with established practices of all rightful Dai. Hence, it is one example proving he is not dai with nuss-a-Jli like all previous 46 dai's.

[Doctor]

(IMAGE 1 & 2)
Page 276
(Line 3rd from Last)
From Mohammed Badruddin (46th Dai - in HIS writing) to his Brother and companion, the 3rd in Hudoon, the greatest hudood of deen, and the greatest of the scholars in ilm and yaqeen. (written in 1255H)

If we assume your above statement to be not untrue then also it does NOT prove Nuss-a-Jli was made on Najmuddin sahab by Syyedna Badruddin q.s.

Page 277
(Letter from Syedna Mohammed Badruddin)
(Second from last)
After the 45th Dai passed away, I ran the affairs of dawat (Page 278) with help of my brother and companion, and my greatest helper, who is the Abd of my Qadir, and the star of my deen. I took him as the greatest of my pillars, and the greatest of my A'yaan (people), and have made him my Mukasir. I consider him just like me in his Mafaakhir (glory?).

If we assume your above statement to be not untrue then also it does NOT prove Nuss-a-Jli was made on Najmuddin sahab by Syyedna Badruddin q.s.

Page 278
(Second Half)
Syedna Mohammed Badruddin did Nass on Syedna Najmuddin on 9th Moharram in Pune, and again 9th Moharram in Surat

[*][/b] As Porus bhai rightly asserted, above is quoted by THIRD PARTY and not directly by Syyedna Badruddin sahab.

[*][/b] Tahir Saifuddin sahab (the third party) ne likh to diya ki Nuss-a-Jli ki, magar nuss-a-Jli aise nahi hoti he! Above baat ko Kothar main proof of Nuss maan raha he, magar unke is super-strong saboot me holes kya he yeh dekhiye:

(i) Kin hazrat ke saamne nuss ki thi - information nadarad he!
(ii) Nuss ki ibarat kya he - information nahi he?
(iii) Nuss hone ki aini shahadat (eye witness) kin logo ke saamne di gai - information missing he?

Bina above three points ke nuss-a-Jli hoti hi nahi he, aur inke proof me yeh teeno info missing kyon he? !!!!!!!!!!

[*][/b] Sabse important baat - Agar Puna aur Surat me Nuss-a-Jli ki thi to Risala "Al Naie Al Batash't Al Kubra" me iska zikr kyon nahi he? Is Risale me yeh baat (Pune aur Surat me nuss-a-Jli) ka absence hona is baat ka sabse bada saboot he ki Najmuddin sahab per Nuss-a-Jli hovi nahi he,[/color]

(IMAGE 3) - (Which Risalah not sure)
Page 177
2nd Qasida, 2nd Bayt
You are the one with the Amr (order), tasleem and Arsh (Takt/Seat of Power) from Syedna Mohammed Badruddin.

Your Mohib (one who has your love) is the Mohib of Allah, and your enemy (confused Proggies/Reformists) is the Enemy of allah

(Last Line)
Who else except Syedna Badruddin (46) and Syedna Najmuddin (47) is there?

If we assume your above statement to be not untrue then also it does NOT prove Nuss-a-Jli was made on Najmuddin sahab by Syyedna Badruddin q.s.

CONCLUDING NOTES:
The above text is sufficient to clarify that the Nass not made on Najmuddin sahab.

- By Syedna Badruddins letters where he uses the words "brother & companion" (the same way the Prophet did Nass on Imam Ali - You do believe in Imam Ali don't you?), and the "greatest of all the hudood", and says Syedna Najmuddin is just like him
- By the words of the Hudoods (pointed out above)

Should using word "brother and companion" was equalent to nuss-a-Jli then Allah would not have sent following aayat: "Agar Ali ki walayat ka elan (nuss a Jli) nahi ki to goya Risalat ka koi kaam hi nahi kiya"! So, Rasool Allah s.a.w.w. did annoucement (nuss-a-Jli) on Gadeer-a-Khum hence, referring Mola Ali a.s. as "brother and companion" is NOT sufficient and is not akin to doing "nuss-a-Jli". Thus, if we assume that Syyedna Badruddin a.q. told above then it is not equal to doing "nuss-a-Jli".

So, Nass not done is clear.
HAJ point is clear
Jazira Point is clear

Adam is an ignorant illiterate & doesn't know what he's talking about : Crystal Clear!

[Doctor]

ULMAO NI TASAW'WUR

Aa mazmoon ne Abd a Ali Imaduddin sahab pota na eik taweel marsiya ma aa tarha ada kare che:

Badr'deen shah tere marne se hum mar hi gaye,
Khaaq per he wali khaaq ke ander hi gaye.

Subha'dam Najm'deen sahab ke tai bulaya,
Aasteen apni waha aansu se tar kar hi gaye.

Chhodh kar maada sifat saare hudood-a-deen ko,
Rutba-a-dawate talak ke bus nar hi gaye.

Gum me is shah ke ro aur rula Abd a Ali,
Teri chhati pe eik dard ka paththar dhar hi gaye.

Abd a Ali Imaduddin sahab depicted Dai Mutlaq Syyedna Badruddin as ghar dhani (male) and all other hudood as wives. When male dies, then what should wives do? They should sit for iddat. In iddat one require to do things only that are compulsorily needed i.e. offer only farizat and other important requirement of community. So, the clear indication is ghar dhani (Dai Mutlaq post) is died now only women folks is left (Mazoon, Mukasir and mashaiqh) required to do only imp things and not doing extra-ordinary things like conferring titles of "Sheikh", "Mulla", etc - NO NEW THINGS ONLY MANAGE THE EXISTING MANAGEMENT (DAI NAZIM) OF COMMUNITY AFFAIRS. Someone was required to manage the show i.e. act like a Dai Nazim, when no one was ready, Najmuddin sahab agreed to step in, so with consent of Ulama he was made Dai to manage the community affairs.

[progticide]

ADMIN,

I wish this had been requested by a reformist member, but, nevertheless, I am taking the initiative and hope the reformist forum members in agreement with the below, would second the proposal.

In the light of the fact that Mubarak a.k.a Doctor a.k.a Badrijanab no longer subscribes to your reformist doctrine and categorically and unequivocally rejects the reformist doctrinal statement of accepting Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin (TUS) as Dai al Mutlaq, promotes the 46er belief of end of the office of Dai al Mutlaq, and incites, encourages, promotes and propogates the false theories and conspiracies among the reformists against rightful succession from 46th Dai to 47th Dai, I hereby urge you to ban the participation of Mubarak a.k.a Doctor a.k.a Badrijanab on this forum, since his writings may be miscontrued and mistaken by visitors and new members on this forum as the real and definitive stand and views of the total reformists community.

Just like Muslim First and Anajmi are trying to propagate Wahabi beliefs on this forum and derailing every thread with their ridicule of the DB faith, this Mubarak a.k.a Doctor a.k.a Badrijanab has disguised himself as an active reformists only to promote his master's doctrine against the Dai al Mutlaq through the false issue of Nuss.
Mubarak a.k.a doctor a.k.a. Badrijanab's occasional threads on DB history and beliefs and praises for Aimmat and Duat is only an eyewash which he uses to maintain his disguise as a DB believer, and this is the reason he uses multiple user ids in an attempt to fool non-regular participants and visitors on this forum. However, he is using this forum as a platform, as agreed above by another reformist member Humsafar, to only promote his larger agenda of false Nuss issue, which is against the official reformist agenda.

I, therefore, request reformists forum members to put differences aside on this point, and support my call for banning Mubarak a.k.a Doctor a.k.a Badrijanab from this forum.

[Doctor]

PROPHECY BY SHEIKH SADIK ALI SAHAB

Sheikh Sadik Ali Sahab in his Diwan on page 103 of the second volume of 1233 edition wrote:
[*][/b] 23 verse on left hand side (indicating total dai in Yemen)
[*][/b] 23 verse on right hand side (indicating total dai in Hindustan) and
[*][/b] Below to above 46 verse he wrote on the 47th position: "without 'nus' dai is like clay idol (moorti)".

At same place, Sheikh Sadik Ali sahab says: Dai Zoeb pehla ne chhe Badruddin khatim

Meaning: Dai Zoeb (Sayedna Zoeb bin Musa) was the first Dai-ul-Mutlaq in order and 46th Dai Syyedna Mohammad Badruddin was the last Dai-ul-Mutlaq.

This was construed to be a prophecy as Shaikh Sadiq Ali had died before the death of Sayedna Mohammad Badruddin Saheb. Late Bade Mulla Taher Saifuddin Saheb had also refered this verse in his book "Zue-Nure-Haqqul-Mubin at page 99-103 and refuted it as misprint

Copied from post of Janab Saifuddin Insaf sahab.

[Biradar]

I agree with progticide. Perhaps a good solution would be to make a new board for him where he can talk to himself all day long, vent his weird conspiracy theories and spout out his ridiculous ideas about iddat, wuzzu and FGM. We could call it the "Mad Doctor Vents" board. But please, for god's sake, lets get rid of him from here.

This Doctor person is nothing but a mad fanatic, and like all mad fanatics, appears to be immovable by any evidence and wants to distract from the real purpose of reform: to separate secular from religious, reduce financial burden on common bohras, and to stop the leeches from the da'i's family living off community wealth, revert control of non-religious matters to competent (which means non-clerical) members, allow dissent and disagreements based on conscience, among other things.

[ghulam muhammed]

We can go on and on with pieces of history which are always vulnerable to fabrication and distortion by vested interests. It has been proved time and again that history is used as a tool by vested interests to further their agenda which mostly is to divide mankind into sects, castes, sub castes etc etc. Some historians claim that the jewish holocaust never took place and it is a false attempt by certain zionist jews to further their own agenda, many historians propagate the destruction of hindu temples in India by muslim rulers but many say that muslim rulers were very tolerant and gifted vast tracts of land for construction of temples, earlier history which is very recent and which was taught in schools till some 40 years back says that shivaji was a mountain rat who killed afzal khan by deceit but the current one presents himself as a valiant,brave and just warrior and also confers the title of 'Chhatrapati' on him. The list is endless. Hence in a nutshell it is futile to cling on to pieces of history which are always questionable but rather concentrate on the present which effects our current lives.

The question of nass or no nass is only good from an academic point of view which does not help the present day bohras who are caught in the vice like grip of the greedy dawat admnistration headed by the dai. For the believers of hidden Imam it is more pertinent to reflect on his impeccable qualities and pure lineage which in every likelihood would NEVER leave his followers at the mercy of a ruthless, greedy and power hungry leader whose hidden agenda is ONLY mass accumalation of wealth devoid of any religious virtues. Hence instead of wasting time and energy over the past would it not be better to reflect on the life and activities of the present dai and figure out whether does he in ANY WAY qualify for the coveted post ?? A little commonsense would outright reject him and there wont be any need to dig out past history in order to draw any conclusion.