DB View of Ayesha

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
asad
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DB View of Ayesha

#1

Unread post by asad » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:21 am

Can the learned people on this Forum comment on why DB's carry so much hatred towards Ayesha, I want some reasonable answers and not emotional ones. If its because of Fight of Jamal than Ali had only pardoned her and if its for some other reason than please educate. I can understand their hatred for Abu bakar but why Ayesha?

pheonix
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#2

Unread post by pheonix » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:07 am

Yeah ok, thats all she did. Forgetting her atrocities on Hassan's death? She would certainly have replaced Shimir if she were alive.
We hate her becuase she hated the people we love the most,Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.
Last edited by pheonix on Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

SBM
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#3

Unread post by SBM » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:08 am

Yeah ok, thats all she did. Forgetting her atrocities on Hassan's death? She would certainly have replaced Shimir if she were alive.
Please enlighten us what did she do to Imam Hassan?

asad
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#4

Unread post by asad » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:47 am

Can Adam/Progticide/Badrijanab/Porus or others can also reply.

Bohra spring
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#5

Unread post by Bohra spring » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:48 am

Asad I wish you had not started this topic it will end up with insults and abuses and we will drag the Prophets family into it.

Who are we to make historical conclusion and question the judgement of the Prophet and Ali

Ayesha was last the wife of the Prophet during his death let us not imply he chose without Allah guidance auzubillah , she was Abubakrs daughter the prophets companion, period, Shias can say what they may on his character, we should accept that the prophet chose him as a companion , he did not choose you or me or the diai, the Khalifa Ali accepted for whatever reason, period even if we implicate him to have hurt his wife Fatema. He made a wise and informed choice would it not be betters to accept their decision rather than challenge his decision and make our own cause or effect logic.

So how do we try to be smarter than such high profile people to twist a more likely to be a typical family feud and blow it out of context and proportion and throw dirt around 1,400 years after the event. Why is It so difficult for us Shia to not need to insult, how does it impact our faith and worship towards Allah and his message ?

asad
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#6

Unread post by asad » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:37 am

@Bohra Spring
i understand your concern but its very necessary for Bohras to understand and justify their Lanats, The day they cant justify they will ask questions and that is the sole purpose of this thread, to make people ask questions, Uncomfortable question, to their elders that if they are doing something and its made out to be a integral part of Bohra faith than what is the logic behind it, a simple "Why" will take us a long way in this fight

Muslim First
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#7

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:01 am

pheonix wrote:Yeah ok, thats all she did. Forgetting her atrocities on Hassan's death? She would certainly have replaced Shimir if she were alive.
We hate her becuase she hated the people we love the most,Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.
pheonix is little buccha monkey. Monkey see monkey do.
Little buccha monkey does not need to know any rime or reason but only to copy head monkey.
Tradition is we love and worship Ali, Fatema. Hassan and Hussein the most and we hate 3+1. New generation of little monkeys do not have to know any reason. They learn history from Sydena, shehzadas, aamils etc. etc.

Reason never prevails.

Muslim First
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#8

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:34 pm

Come on Dawoodi Bohras of all persuasion. This is important issue for Shias.

Where are you guys?
Janab Badrijanab, Janab Doctor, Janab pesticide, Janab Shaikh porus.

porus
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#9

Unread post by porus » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:07 pm

I believe that this is the DB view.

Ayesha went against the commandment of the Quran (33:32-33:33) asking her to abide quietly in her home. Ayesha invited wrath of Allah on herself by becoming Ali's enemy because in Rasulullah's prayer at Ghadeer-e-khum, Prophet had asked Allah to 'be the enemy of those who are enemies of Ali."

In addition, there are reports of her having refused burial of Imam Hasan near the grave of Prophet. This she did by marching to the funeral on the back of a Donkey. Bohras consider this an insult to Imam Hasan. (Muslims do not behave like that at a funeral). And of course there are stories of her rage at Prophet's love for ahlul bayt and her jealousy against Prophet's fond remembrance of his first wife Khadija, Fatima's mother.

Now this is my view.

Despite what happened as recorded in history, we cannot escape the fact that Ali gave Ayesha safe conduct back to Madina after the Battle of Jamal. He did that owing to the respect he had for the wife of the Prophet. I think Bohras should follow Ali and stop throwing abuse at her.

The primary reason for abusing Ayesha and the 3 Khalifas is political slogan mongering beloved of those who would enslave people to their will. Bohras are suckers. There is absolutely no religious justification for this uncouth behavior.

Muslim First
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#10

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:58 pm

porus
Despite what happened as recorded in history, we cannot escape the fact that Ali gave Ayesha safe conduct back to Madina after the Battle of Jamal. He did that owing to the respect he had for the wife of the Prophet. I think Bohras should follow Ali and stop throwing abuse at her.

The primary reason for abusing Ayesha and the 3 Khalifas is political slogan mongering beloved of those who would enslave people to their will. Bohras are suckers. There is absolutely no religious justification for this uncouth behavior.
Aamin

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#11

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:55 pm

thanks porus.

i second wholeheartedly whatever you have written.

the shias and bohras in particular, vilify the first 3 khalifas and ayesha with the choicest of abuse, little realising that they were the chosen companions of the prophet and very close to him with intimate family connections. whatever happened subsequent to the demise of the prophet is most unfortunate, but the shias take no lessons from the noble conduct of ali, who never once wavered from his decency but carried on with his mission to keep islam united. the entire muslim ummah acknowledges this, as well as the ultimate sacrifices made by his beloved sons hassan and hussain.

since this is a bohra forum, they need to be reminded that insulting and belittling the achievements of the first 3 khalifas and abusing them, making it one's life's purpose to keep the flames of hatred alive towards them and on the other hand praising ali's deeds to the point of elevating him to a virtual deity, is in a most poetic irony, an insult to the memory of ali, for it is he who had summarily rejected flatterers as scorpions and serpents who would misguide and deceive honest muslims for their own vested interests.

as porus has rightly mentioned, events of the past are being cynically twisted and misused for playing politics of power and influence. 'nahi to dukaan bandh ho jayegi.'

if the shias claim to have the higher moral ground over the sunnis, then let them display the sterling qualities of ali, his forbearance, his tolerance and large heartedness, his courage and patience. his total submission to the will of allah. is it not a strange contradiction, that bohras who call themselves shiate-ali, then indulge in daily gaali-galoch and cheap behaviour in his name??

Adam
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#12

Unread post by Adam » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:31 am

Aisha is hated by the Dawoodi Bohras, Fatimids, Ismailis and Shias (so please do not say it's only the Bohras).
She fought against Moulana Ali in Jamal, and against Imam Hasan on a Baghlah.
(From the two sides only one can be right, and if you don't think Imam Ali was right, then you have to reconsider your beliefd)

The Prophet would have chose to marry her for many reasons (hikmat), but just because he married her doesn't make her awesome.
The Quran has given two examples of Prophets wives who turned against them, Nabi Nuh and Nabi Looths wife.
ضَرَبَ ٱللَّهُ مَثَلًۭا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ ٱمْرَأَتَ نُوحٍۢ وَٱمْرَأَتَ لُوطٍۢ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَٰلِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ ٱللَّهِ شَيْـًۭٔا وَقِيلَ ٱدْخُلَا ٱلنَّارَ مَعَ ٱلدَّٰخِلِينَ
(Surah 66:10)
So even they acted on the orders of Allah.

Secondly, the Quran in Surah Ahzaab, is also warning the wives of Prophet Mohammed to watch out.


asad
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#13

Unread post by asad » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:51 am

Adam wrote:Aisha is hated by the Dawoodi Bohras, Fatimids, Ismailis and Shias (so please do not say it's only the Bohras).
She fought against Moulana Ali in Jamal, and against Imam Hasan on a Baghlah.
(From the two sides only one can be right, and if you don't think Imam Ali was right, then you have to reconsider your beliefd)

The Prophet would have chose to marry her for many reasons (hikmat), but just because he married her doesn't make her awesome.
The Quran has given two examples of Prophets wives who turned against them, Nabi Nuh and Nabi Looths wife.
ضَرَبَ ٱللَّهُ مَثَلًۭا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ ٱمْرَأَتَ نُوحٍۢ وَٱمْرَأَتَ لُوطٍۢ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَٰلِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ ٱللَّهِ شَيْـًۭٔا وَقِيلَ ٱدْخُلَا ٱلنَّارَ مَعَ ٱلدَّٰخِلِينَ
(Surah 66:10)
So even they acted on the orders of Allah.

Secondly, the Quran in Surah Ahzaab, is also warning the wives of Prophet Mohammed to watch out.

Adam,

Is Ayesha Umm Al Mumineen as per Quran or not?

humanbeing
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#14

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:59 am

Adam wrote:Aisha is hated by the Dawoodi Bohras, Fatimids, Ismailis and Shias (so please do not say it's only the Bohras).She fought against Moulana Ali in Jamal, and against Imam Hasan on a Baghlah.(From the two sides only one can be right, and if you don't think Imam Ali was right, then you have to reconsider your belief)

You are so manipulative ! no one on this forum said Imam Ali was wrong in the context discussed here. Imam Ali forgave Aisha and let her safe passage. Yet you twisted words and accuse people on this forum of Declaring Imam Ali wrong.

Cheats and Thugs at Kothari Inc cannot match this forgiving quality of Imam Ali and Imam Hussain. Kothari Inc is so ruthless, they can deny a decent burial of dead because monies are not paid, so please don’t take sides of Ahle bait on whose footsteps they cant even follow.

Kothari Inc needs to reconsider their belief, atleast stop the hypocrisy, if they fear Allah.
Adam wrote:The Prophet would have chose to marry her for many reasons (hikmat), but just because he married her doesn't make her awesome.
Really ! you know better then prophet ? eh ! can you speak same for Dai’s wives !

Shame !

SBM
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#15

Unread post by SBM » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:44 am

?
eh ! can you speak same for Dai’s wives !

OR FOR THEIR POISONING?

porus
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#16

Unread post by porus » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:05 am

Adam wrote:
The Quran has given two examples of Prophets wives who turned against them, Nabi Nuh and Nabi Looths wife.
ضَرَبَ ٱللَّهُ مَثَلًۭا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ ٱمْرَأَتَ نُوحٍۢ وَٱمْرَأَتَ لُوطٍۢ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَٰلِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ ٱللَّهِ شَيْـًۭٔا وَقِيلَ ٱدْخُلَا ٱلنَّارَ مَعَ ٱلدَّٰخِلِينَ
(Surah 66:10)
Unlike in the case of the wives of Nuh and Lut, Quran has not rendered any such judgment on Ayesha. What I wrote above is the Bohra interpretation of the Quran and hadith in reference to Ayesha's behavior, not Allah's interpretation. It would be advisable to let Allah be the judge and not presume to 'know' His 'mind' in this case.

humanbeing
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#17

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:01 am

SBM wrote:?
eh ! can you speak same for Dai’s wives !

OR FOR THEIR POISONING?
Hi SBM
Not to be misunderstood please. My question was, The way Adam spoke of Prophet’s wives, similarly can he speak same for Dai’s family ? in terms of disrespect and assumptive opinions.

SBM
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#18

Unread post by SBM » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:14 am

HB
That was a caustic and sarcastic remark regarding 52 Dai's mother and 51 Dais's wife

seeker110
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#19

Unread post by seeker110 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:28 pm

Sad division of Islamic brotherhood. Our Nabi's family , friends and love ones. Just respects to all.


Bohra spring
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#21

Unread post by Bohra spring » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:46 am

Abdes good luck when you do go for judgement day and are asked to explain why you insulted the a Prophets respected Wife! A person he shared his private life with and

Also explain to the prophet why you abused. And cursed his companions

Good luck when you try to hide behind the excuse you were trying to defend Alis honor

and regretably you are introduced by Ali that the person you cursed was by the way also his daughters husband. Then wonder what a mess you are in and seek to look for your Diai to come to your rescue!

Muslim First
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#22

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:35 am

Question for asif786 and Sheikh Janab porus

Does Islam requires daily discussion of deeds of Prophet's family?

Do you agree that Hadith of Ahl al kisa ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Kisa ) was narrated by Aisha, you consider a liar?

Can you find same Hadith narrated by any of panjatams in Shia or Sunni Ahadith collection?

Wy would Aisha elevate station of Ali and family if she hated them?

Hz Fatema RA and Aisha were women and loved same person ( Rasul). Is it possible that both were jealous of each other?

What was origin of small but significant incident which was beginning of friction between Hz Ali and Aisha?

Did Aisha regret whole thing on her death bed?

anajmi
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:52 am

Many issues with the interpretation of the Quran by this guy. First let us deal with 66:10 where Allah is talking about the wives of Lut (as) and Nuh (as). The gentleman says that anyone who ask us to respect the wives of the prophet (saw) just because they are the wives of the prophet (saw) should be shown this ayah. However, we have to remember that Unlike in the case of the wives of Nuh and Lut, Quran has not rendered any such judgment on Ayesha. Besides, the sinful family members of prophets were identified to the prophets during their lifetimes in all cases mentioned in the Quran. The father of Ibrahim (as), the wives of Lut (as) and Nuh (as), the sons of Nuh (as) and the prophets were asked to leave them. Nothing as such has happened with Hazrat Ayesha (ra). Infact, the prophet (saw) was buried in her house. He spent all his own time with Hazrat Ayesha (ra).

Second, the argument about wives of the prophet (saw) being referred to as the mothers of the believers, simply to prevent others from marrying them. This argument is lame and has been disputed many times on this board. The Quran prohibits marriage to many different women. Does it make them all your mothers? No it does not. If the only reason was to prevent marriage, then Allah could've said, prohibited to you in marriage are the wives of the prophet (saw) like he does in every other case where marriage is forbidden.

Third, this gentlemen says that ayahs 33:28 - the first half of 33:33 is dividing the wives of the prophet (saw) into two sections. One that loves duniya and the other that loves aakhirah. This is again a misinterpretation. These ayahs do no such things. They are addressing all wives of the prophet (saw). Infact, these ayahs are giving them guidance as to what they need to do so that they can receive the greatest purification from Allah. Which brings me to my fourth point. This gentleman mentions in the first part of this video that you cannot claim greatness by association. Greatness has to come from deeds. Does greatness follow deeds or do deeds follow greatness? Obviously, greatness follows deeds. Hence 33:28 to 33:33 mentions the deeds that need to be performed by the wives of the prophet (saw) if they are to achieve the greatest purification. An earlier ayah mentions that if they do bad, they receive double the punishment, similarly if they obey Allah and his prophet (saw), they receive the best of purification as mentioned in the second half of 33:33. It is not that difficult to understand. If a portion of 33:33 is to be associated with the family of Ali, then it is solely by association and not by deeds. He is doing exactly the same thing that he says the others shouldn't.

Then he again goes into the already proven incorrect argument about the gender of the verse 33:33 changing from feminine to masculine. But then realising his mistake he immediately goes to the hadith. So he started by saying we have to prove it from the quran and ends by going to hadith.

Then he goes on to talk about how Allah has admonished them and threatened them with divorce and replacement with better wives if they do not repent and hold each other over him. The key is - "if they do not repent". Since the prophet (saw) never divorced these wives, we can assume that they did repent and Allah accepted their repentance and forgave them. Or, we have to assume that Allah did not divorce them because he wasn't able to find anyone better than them, or Allah was only making idle threats. Which one is it?

I am posting this with great reluctance because I am not sure if the Admin will keep it or delete it.

Muslim First
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#24

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:13 pm

Aal e Bait(as) and Syedna Aisha(ra)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=e_UiEQ1Z ... _UiEQ1ZJA0

Adam
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#25

Unread post by Adam » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:28 am

Dawoodi Bohra view of Ayesha.
Very similar to view of 1 2 3.

They were companions/wives. Didn't continue to do/act as they were supposed to, and ended up on the "dark side".

Take this Qasida for example, written by a Shia in the middle ages:
يا ترى أي أمة لنبي * جاز في شرعه قتال نساها
أي ام للمؤمنين أساءت * ببنيها ففرقتهم سواها
شتتتهم في كل شعب وواد * بئس أم عتت على أبناها
نسيت آية التبرج أم لم * تدر أن الرحمن عنه نهاها
حفظت أربعين ألف حديث * ومن الذكر آية تنساها
ذكرتنا بفعلها زوج موسى * إذ سعت بعد فقده مسعاها
قاتلت يوشعا كما قاتلته * لم تخالف حمراؤها صفراها
واستمرت تجر أردية اللهو * الذي عن إلهها ألهاها

1st Verse : Which Nabi allowed his women to go into war?
2nd: If she was "Ummul Mumineen", (Mother of Mumineen), how can a "Mother" go to war with her own children?
3rd Verse: A Mother who fought and tried to disperse them, What a disgraceful mother she is.
4th: Did she forget the Ayah of the Quran of "Tabarruj", didn't she not know that Allah told her not to leave her house?
5th: (She claims) to have memorized 40,000 Hadeeth, but yet she couldn't remember only ONE Ayat from the Quran?! (Ayat al Tabarruj 33:33) (The one Ayat that concerned her)
Etc etc

Another by a Shia'
تجملتِ تبغلتِ * و لو عشتِ تفيلت
"You came in front of Imam Ali AS on a Camel. Then in front of Imam Hasan AS to stop him on a donkey. Aysha, if you lived any longer, you would have come attacked Imam Husain AS in Karbala on an Elephant!!"

She went against the Quran, the Prophet Imam Ali and Imam Hasan AS.
(Whether you accept Imam Ali "let her pass" or not, the fact is she didn't stay put or do true forgiveness, but she went against Imam Hasan AS again.

Wives of the Prophets went against Allah in the past, and She did the same.



Last edited by Adam on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

MM Bukhari
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#26

Unread post by MM Bukhari » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:33 am

^ look at this handicapped scholar he talks about bohra view and then posts some qasida from shia source, so what the hell are u doing in air conditioned offices of jamia when u cant even produce simple stand on wife of prophet Muhammed(s).

Adam
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#27

Unread post by Adam » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:03 am

MM Bukhari wrote:^ look at this handicapped scholar he talks about bohra view and then posts some qasida from shia source, so what the hell are u doing in air conditioned offices of jamia when u cant even produce simple stand on wife of prophet Muhammed(s).

I already did. Read above.
Uyoon al Akhbar - Syedna Idris is very explicit on Ayshea

I posted the quotes from these Shia poets, because we agree with their thought.
Syedna has quoted the second verse many times in his Waaz.
Shias and Dawoodi Bohras are have the same belief when it comes to Ayshah & 1 2 3.

Now instead of jumping at "how it was said", read "what was said".

Aysha = Dark Side (DB beliefs & Shias)

P.S - I don't claim to be a "Scholar", but at least I am clear about my own beliefs, unlike your confused self.

MM Bukhari
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#28

Unread post by MM Bukhari » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:31 am

mr adam I am well aware of bohra stand on ayesha and I aam also well aware how jamea sends some students of jamia to al azhar to copy latest tactics and latest qasida and research of shia scholars, so then they can come back to india manipulate it in bohra version and publish to poor bohras to make them believe this is coming from pen of syedna and bohra scholars.

anajmi
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#29

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:34 am

1st Verse : Which Nabi allowed his women to go into war?
If the Nabi had been alive, she wouldn't have had to go to war.
2nd: If she was "Ummul Mumineen", (Mother of Mumineen), how can a "Mother" go to war with her own children?
Mothers punish their children for misbehaving all the time. Also, did your door forget that she was mother only for prevention of marriage as per his own misinterpretation?
3rd Verse: A Mother who fought and tried to disperse them, What a disgraceful mother she is.
Not sure what this means, but read above.
4th: Did she forget the Ayah of the Quran of "Tabarruj", didn't she not know that Allah told her not to leave her house?
Are you saying that the Quran put the wives of the prophet (saw) under house arrest? If there is a fire in the house, is she still required to stay in the house? At that time, they had to go out of their houses even to attend nature's call. Misinterpretation of the Quran is a profession perfected by your doors!!
5th: (She claims) to have memorized 40,000 Hadeeth, but yet she couldn't remember only ONE Ayat from the Quran?! (Ayat al Tabarruj 33:33) (The one Ayat that concerned her)
Etc etc
Read above.

Adam
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Re: DB View of Ayesha

#30

Unread post by Adam » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:58 am

Ahah, the Wahabi is back!

Translation: 2nd: If she was "Ummul Mumineen", (Mother of Mumineen), how can a "Mother" go to war with her own children?


Anajmi:
Mothers punish their children for misbehaving all the time.


So you mean to put Imam Ali in the group that went against Ayshah, considering them the "misbehaving" lot?

There's only one right.
If Ayshah went to war with Imam Ali, then only one has to be right.

Choose your side, but choose carefully, there may be those that are against Dawoodi Bohras on this Forum, but there's a big side who loves Imam Ali AS.