hierarchy dilemma

[asad]

Who is higher in the hierarchy after Syedna ? Mansoos or Mukasir.
in hte below picture Masoos is sitting at the higher position than Mukasir

[Adam]

This is very simple, and no need for any Dilemma.

Ali Qadr Seydi Mufaddal BS (Mansoos) will sit before the Mazoon and Mukasir, after the Dai.

If you had even the basic knowledge of Dawoodi Bohra history, you wouldn't need to ask such a question.

[asad]

Thanks Adam,

This will mean that Mansoos is a designation in the hierarchy and it comes before Mazun and Mukasir. Please clarify

[mnoorani]

Thanks Adam,

This will mean that Mansoos is a designation in the hierarchy and it comes before Mazun and Mukasir. Please clarify

Have you forgotten what was said at the Zahir Batin controversy ?
The post of Mazun and Mukasir are all for nothing as these two gentlemen are only for display ,Zahir. There are actual secret Mazun and Mukasir who are real and are in secret, Batin. This is the reason that the Post of mansoos is higher than these two displays. This is the reason why nothing was done with the Mazun even though his affairs with Bollywood starlets, Mumtaz and Nafisa Ali became public. This is the reason why the Mazun was also beaten up in Surat by the Dai's son. As he is just for display. There is a real, batini mazun somewhere. The same goes for the post of the Mukasir. This is why the previous Mukasir owned a liquor selling hotel. The display can do any kind of unislamc acts. The previous Mukasir also had a Jewish wife. As he was only a display item and with no real divinity ,he was allowed to do so. However the real, Batin Mazun and Mukasir are pristine in their lifestyle and are only for the Worship of Allah.
But please do remember that there is only a Zahir Dai and a Zahir Mansoos.

[Al Zulfiqar]

welcome back adam, after a long hiatus!

i thought that the kothar had made it abundantly clear that abdes are not to visit this site? are you a munafiq that you are disobeying their fatwa? or is it that you are so addicted to this site to show off your pseudo-knowledge that you just cannot keep away, even without raza?

in the past we learnt a lot from you on how the kothar is twisting scriptures which you named so eagerly (many of them seized from individual bohras and bohra trusts) although they were to be kept hidden from the world so our secrets are not exposed. they have explicitly stated in their fatwa recently that exposing such secret taawil and listing the names of such books and scriptures is a grave sin against the imams and scholars who wrote them with raza of imams, as they were strictly for shia ismaili tayyebi eyes only. disobeying the imams and earning the displeasure of their maasoom dai amounts to invoking the wrath of allah.

whereas, by participating on this forum you are destined for hell (as per your masters), we progressives will grant you heaven if you keep posting and revealing to us the sources of the secret knowledge and how your masters interpret it for their acolytes, that you have been so fortunate to acquire in sabaks.

thanks in advance!

[khudaparast]

Adam when ever some serious question is raised u suddenly disappeared while some silly things are quoted u suddenly jump in to defend ur masters.

its a shame to call u a shiayate ALI ibn Abi talib.....u are more of UMAR follower then Ali(s)

[Bohra spring]

A noble and true Muslim of Sunni teaching would not criticise ahlul bayt regardless of the attacks on their khalifa by misguided minority Shias .

please do not encourage these debates where you encourage attacks on Ashabas.

The respect for Ashabas and ahlunbayt is far highere then diai, Zadas or amils let us not equate them.

[Adam]

Thanks Adam,
This will mean that Mansoos is a designation in the hierarchy and it comes before Mazun and Mukasir. Please clarify

Yes, I already said so.
Masoos of the Dai. The Manoos is the representative of the Dai.
This is very simple, and no need for any Dilemma.
Ali Qadr Seydi Mufaddal BS (Mansoos) will sit before the Mazoon and Mukasir, after the Dai.
If you had even the basic knowledge of Dawoodi Bohra history, you wouldn't need to ask such a question.

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam, i see that you are still here inspite of the kothar's fatwa not to participate on this site or any dushman owned sites.

either you dont care about their warnings that you will incur allah's wrath and go to hell, or you are someone high up in their hierarchy yrself and sent here as an agent provocateur to refute, refuse, confuse, lie, deceive, obfuscate and spread misinformation. its obvious to us what you are.

and btw, please provide proof from our scriptures, page and line, where the mansoos is designated as higher than mukasir and maazoon. thanks!

[mukhlis52]

Hierarchy of Da'wat mandates the position of Mansus as higher than that of Ma'zoon or Mukasir because the Mansus acts as deputy of the Da'i expressly and actively i.e. even if the Da'i is present whereas the Mazoon/Mukasir act as deputies only in the absence of the Da'i i.e. if the Da'i is on Hajj or a similar occurrence.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Hierarchy of Da'wat mandates the position of Mansus as higher than that of Ma'zoon or Mukasir because the Mansus acts as deputy of the Da'i expressly and actively i.e. even if the Da'i is present whereas the Mazoon/Mukasir act as deputies only in the absence of the Da'i i.e. if the Da'i is on Hajj or a similar occurrence.

then all amils of jamaats should be higher in rank than maazun and mukasir too. they too are dai's appointed reps, authorised to collect money, give raza, conduct majlis and nikah's, do vaez, bayans and terrorise people as well in the absence of dai and in his name.

[mukhlis52]

Hierarchy of Da'wat mandates the position of Mansus as higher than that of Ma'zoon or Mukasir because the Mansus acts as deputy of the Da'i expressly and actively i.e. even if the Da'i is present whereas the Mazoon/Mukasir act as deputies only in the absence of the Da'i i.e. if the Da'i is on Hajj or a similar occurrence.

then all amils of jamaats should be higher in rank than maazun and mukasir too. they too are dai's appointed reps, authorised to collect money, give raza, conduct majlis and nikah's, do vaez, bayans and terrorise people as well in the absence of dai and in his name.

I guess my post went right past you, "like an arrow passing through its target"

[Adam]

Muklis52 ignore AlZulfiqar.
He's a confused one. Not even a DB but still tried to act like one and questions it.

@ASAD I hope that answers your question.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Muklis52 ignore AlZulfiqar.
He's a confused one. Not even a DB but still tried to act like one and questions it.

@ASAD I hope that answers your question.

mukhlis, ignore adam. he is a munafiq and not even a DB.

he's a snake who has deliberately violated syedna's fatwa to all 'true mumeneen', not to participate on any non-abde bohra forums and not to reveal to 'outsiders' the hidden and most valuable knowledge taught in secretive sabaks. adam has already revealed here in writing a lot to us about his hidden sources, most of them misinterpreted of course, and twisted to suit the sinister agenda of his 'SAFIA' (saifee mahal mafia) masters.

adam tries hard to act like a DB but questions his master's actions.

and btw, adam has still not provided the proof from our scriptures, page and line, where the mansoos is designated as higher than mukasir and maazoon. his word alone does not count for anything. should such a devious and slimy creature be trusted?

[Adam]

Refer to the picture in the thread.
The Mansoos is sitting above the Mukasir.
Proof. (Unless your blind)

[khudaparast]

Refer to the picture in the thread.
The Mansoos is sitting above the Mukasir.
Proof. (Unless your blind)

hey Dumb u havent answer my question yet or are u blind?

how many GOD are there?

Muhammed burhanuddin is GOD on earth?

[mnoorani]

Refer to the picture in the thread.
The Mansoos is sitting above the Mukasir.
Proof. (Unless your blind)

hey Dumb u havent answer my question yet or are u blind?

how many GOD are there?

Muhammed burhanuddin is GOD on earth?

Ummat maate ek Khuda
Vohra maate bey
Ek to bas deta jaai
Biija, khai ne lai.

[explorer]

dai imaam na che mazhar ane che naa'ib
naasib hase te kehse 'aa dai to khuda che'

mazoon ne mukasir aali rotab che ehna
dai na che ghulamo shanaat ma juda che

mansoos che je rutbo dai pacchi shitabi
dai ni je adaa che mansoos ni adaa che

anyways, what is worrying you about the hierarchy so much, when you do not believe in any of them!

[explorer]

also, i have read a lot on this forum relating to resistance and criticism of paying various due monies which are collected by the clergy for the welfare of our community. rebels here tend to quote verses from the holy quran and try to prove that the practice of the administration in uplifting the community by self sufficiency is not correct. they claim that monies recieved by the clergy should not be used by them to sustain their own lifestyle. well, narrates abdullah bin masood - أداو زكوتكم الى اميركم ولو أكلوا بها لحم حيات.
translation : pay your zakaat to your ameer even though they eat with the money meat of snakes. meaning - even if the ameer uses it for fraudulent and illegal purposes.

this narration is in the context of the omaraa of banu umayya, therefore paying zakat to the dai is the outlook of the mumin ... what the dai does with that money is not the mumins concern..

this is for those who question the dai's leadership in this context.

as far as we r concerned, we completely believe in the aayat - ان الله اشترى من المؤمنين انفسهم وأموالهم بأن لهم الجنة.
allah buys from the mumineen their wealth and their souls in exchange for heaven.

maula is the representative of imam who is representative of nabi mohammad who was representative of allah. so if maula says that give this much zakaat., it is his right to do so on allah's orders only for those who wish to go to jannah.

[SBM]

also, i have read a lot on this forum relating to resistance and criticism of paying various due monies which are collected by the clergy for the welfare of our community. rebels here tend to quote verses from the holy quran and try to prove that the practice of the administration in uplifting the community by self sufficiency is not correct. they claim that monies recieved by the clergy should not be used by them to sustain their own lifestyle. well, narrates abdullah bin masood - أداو زكوتكم الى اميركم ولو أكلوا بها لحم حيات.
translation : pay your zakaat to your ameer even though they eat with the money meat of snakes. meaning - even if the ameer uses it for fraudulent and illegal purposes.

this narration is in the context of the omaraa of banu umayya, therefore paying zakat to the dai is the outlook of the mumin ... what the dai does with that money is not the mumins concern..

this is for those who question the dai's leadership in this context.

as far as we r concerned, we completely believe in the aayat - ان الله اشترى من المؤمنين انفسهم وأموالهم بأن لهم الجنة.
allah buys from the mumineen their wealth and their souls in exchange for heaven.

maula is the representative of imam who is representative of nabi mohammad who was representative of allah. so if maula says that give this much zakaat., it is his right to do so on allah's orders only for those who wish to go to jannah.

How convenient for to quote the Hadith of anyone but CLEVERLY FORGET THE LIFE STYLE AND TEACHING OF MOULA ALI AND IMAM HUSSAIN

as far as we r concerned, we completely believe in the aayat - ان الله اشترى من المؤمنين انفسهم وأموالهم بأن لهم الجنة.
allah buys from the mumineen their wealth and their souls in exchange for heaven.

And Dai and his Goons STEALS from Abdes their wealth and their souls in exchange for hell fire

[Bohra spring]

also, i have read a lot on this forum relating to resistance and criticism of paying various due monies which are collected by the clergy for the welfare of our community. rebels here tend to quote verses from the holy quran and try to prove that the practice of the administration in uplifting the community by self sufficiency is not correct. they claim that monies recieved by the clergy should not be used by them to sustain their own lifestyle. well, narrates abdullah bin masood - أداو زكوتكم الى اميركم ولو أكلوا بها لحم حيات.
translation : pay your zakaat to your ameer even though they eat with the money meat of snakes. meaning - even if the ameer uses it for fraudulent and illegal purposes.

... what the dai does with that money is not the mumins concern..


as far as we r concerned, we completely believe in the aayat - ان الله اشترى من المؤمنين انفسهم وأموالهم بأن لهم الجنة.
allah buys from the mumineen their wealth and their souls in exchange for heaven.

maula is the representative of imam who is representative of nabi mohammad who was representative of allah. so if maula says that give this much zakaat., it is his right to do so on allah's orders only for those who wish to go to jannah.

Do You really believe the rubbish you have just written ?

You say we who are these we , not me or the awake bohras.

If you want to throw away your wealth to a crook that is your issue but do not demand from the rest.

[explorer]

just like u say that my words and beliefs are rubbish, i believe that ur words and arguments are rubbish. good day.

[mnoorani]

[quote="explorer"]dai imaam na che mazhar ane che naa'ib
Imaam na mazhar hota to televison par maafi nahin maangta and aaj na yazeed, Modi ne dost naa banaaw ta.

naasib hase te kehse 'aa dai to khuda che'
Court ma gawaahi didi che ke Dai ,Ilaahil Ardh che. Document aa site par mojuud che. AA gawaahi Sayedna Tahir Sifuddin ye didi che. Yaanee tame ye Muqaddas Mola par " Naasib" nu ilzaam laga wu che. Laanat e mumin par jo dai ne naasib kahe.

mazoon ne mukasir aali rotab che ehna
Aala Rutba ,Nafisa Ali ane Mumtaaz saathe ishq nahi karta, Tame bhuli gaya ke Muqaddas Mukasir ni Ambassador Hotel ma daru nu bar hatu ane emni second wife Yahudi che.
dai na che ghulamo shanaat ma juda che
Dai na ghulamo che pan aa waat dai na shaah zaada bhuli gaya ane Mazoon par Surat ma attack karwa ma aayo.

mansoos che je rutbo dai pacchi shitabi
dai ni je adaa che mansoos ni adaa che
AA waat tamaari saachi, Karachi ma bomb blast pachi , Mansoos shitabi thi Ceylon padhaara and shitaabi thi aur croreron kamaaya.

[badrijanab]

Adam bhai,

Which authentic Dawat books says "Existing Dai's mansoos" is POST / POSITION in Fatimi Dawat - And that POSITION is higher in rank than existing Mazoon and Mukasir?

[Al Zulfiqar]

Refer to the picture in the thread.
The Mansoos is sitting above the Mukasir.
Proof. (Unless your blind)

adam,

thats the most idiotic proof i have ever heard or seen. to mount a defense on the basis of "fait accompli" is an unacceptable defense and legally would be thrown out as being lame and 'after-the-fact', attempting to perpetuate what is already wrong.

if somehow i managed to sit on a chair and placed myself a few inches higher than mansoos, would that make me higher in rank than him?

you are well-known in asking others for proof and to reveal their 'authentic sources' when its inconvenient for you to face the truth. now when you have been challenged, you are wriggling out with these pathetic and puerile tactics.

once again, for the 3rd time, please prove from your authentic sources, from which scriptures/books, and on which page and line where it says unequivocally, that mansoos is higher in rank than maazoon and mukasir.

[progticide]

Adam bhai,

Which authentic Dawat books says "Existing Dai's mansoos" is POST / POSITION in Fatimi Dawat - And that POSITION is higher in rank than existing Mazoon and Mukasir?

Kamzarf Munafiq,
You neither have any Dai nor Mansoos nor Mazoon nor Mukasir in your community. Leave these high offices, you do not even have sufficiently qualified Maulvis in your usurped DB Masjids. Your Maulvis cannot translate the ayats of the Holy Quran into local languages and have to refer to the translations from other authors to understand the meaning of the ayat, before explaining to their foolish followers.

So rather than bother about the hierarchy of positions of the dignitaries of the Fatimi Dawat and interfering in the matters and affairs of DB community, it would be wise for you to look into your own community and fix the problems therein.

[mnoorani]

Adam bhai,

Which authentic Dawat books says "Existing Dai's mansoos" is POST / POSITION in Fatimi Dawat - And that POSITION is higher in rank than existing Mazoon and Mukasir?

Kamzarf Munafiq,
You neither have any Dai nor Mansoos nor Mazoon nor Mukasir in your community. Leave these high offices, you do not even have sufficiently qualified Maulvis in your usurped DB Masjids. Your Maulvis cannot translate the ayats of the Holy Quran into local languages and have to refer to the translations from other authors to understand the meaning of the ayat, before explaining to their foolish followers.

So rather than bother about the hierarchy of positions of the dignitaries of the Fatimi Dawat and interfering in the matters and affairs of DB community, it would be wise for you to look into your own community and fix the problems therein.

The problems lie in our community. What is the use of a Dai who utters laanats in a full majlis and as a consequence fellow bohras are killed then the Dai has to apologise on TV and also render a written apology. We all know the unislamic liasons of the Mazoon with bollywood actresses and now we have caught the Mansoos ,flirting with an airhostess. So I think it is good to be without such Mansoos or Mazoon or other higher ups who do nothing good for the community but infact cause violence where the poor get killed.

[progticide]

Kamzarf Munafiq,
You neither have any Dai nor Mansoos nor Mazoon nor Mukasir in your community. Leave these high offices, you do not even have sufficiently qualified Maulvis in your usurped DB Masjids. Your Maulvis cannot translate the ayats of the Holy Quran into local languages and have to refer to the translations from other authors to understand the meaning of the ayat, before explaining to their foolish followers.

So rather than bother about the hierarchy of positions of the dignitaries of the Fatimi Dawat and interfering in the matters and affairs of DB community, it would be wise for you to look into your own community and fix the problems therein.

The problems lie in our community. What is the use of a Dai who utters laanats in a full majlis and as a consequence fellow bohras are killed then the Dai has to apologise on TV and also render a written apology. We all know the unislamic liasons of the Mazoon with bollywood actresses and now we have caught the Mansoos ,flirting with an airhostess. So I think it is good to be without such Mansoos or Mazoon or other higher ups who do nothing good for the community but infact cause violence where the poor get killed.

Thank you for finally endorsing that reformists/progressives are no longer associated with Dawoodi Bohra community and that reformists/progressives have nothing to do with the Dawoodi Bohra Dai-al-Mutlaq and his deputies, Dawoodi Bohra administration, Dawoodi Bohra organisational structure, Dawoodi Bohra doctrines, Dawoodi Bohra culture and traditions and practices. That Progressive Dawoodi Bohra is in no way associated with Dawoodi Bohra community.

[badrijanab]

Thank you for finally endorsing that reformists/progressives are no longer associated with Dawoodi Bohra community and that reformists/progressives have nothing to do with the Dawoodi Bohra Dai-al-Mutlaq and his deputies, Dawoodi Bohra administration, Dawoodi Bohra organisational structure, Dawoodi Bohra doctrines, Dawoodi Bohra culture and traditions and practices. That Progressive Dawoodi Bohra is in no way associated with Dawoodi Bohra community.

All Dawoodi Bohras including Bohra Youth (Progressives) are Dawoodi Bohras but present Kothar is not Dawoodi Bohras by virtue of their 'amaal' (actions).

[progticide]

Thank you for finally endorsing that reformists/progressives are no longer associated with Dawoodi Bohra community and that reformists/progressives have nothing to do with the Dawoodi Bohra Dai-al-Mutlaq and his deputies, Dawoodi Bohra administration, Dawoodi Bohra organisational structure, Dawoodi Bohra doctrines, Dawoodi Bohra culture and traditions and practices. That Progressive Dawoodi Bohra is in no way associated with Dawoodi Bohra community.

All Dawoodi Bohras including Bohra Youth (Progressives) are Dawoodi Bohras but present Kothar is not Dawoodi Bohras by virtue of their 'amaal' (actions).

There is only one DAWOODI BOHRA community under the Headship of Dai-al-Mutlaq Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS), who is the 52nd Dai-al-Mutlaq appointed to this office through an unbroken chain of succession of Dais starting with the First Dai-al-Mutlaq Syedna Zoeb bin Musa, and there is one single administration for managing the affairs of the Dawoodi Bohras under the Headship of the Dai-al-Mutlaq.

Do you accept this or not?