Moti-us-swalak Fasting

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Moti-us-swalak Fasting

#61

Unread post by Danish » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:24 pm

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
From the quran.
You mean from a silly book invented by stupid and mentally retarded people like yourselves. You still haven't answered my question: WHO AND WHAT EXACTLY IS GOD??? Even your man-made narcist book does not answer my question. Once again I repeat, WHO AND WHAT EXACTLY IS ALLAH (the Creator of our Universe)?



Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

#62

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:03 am

WHO AND WHAT EXACTLY IS ALLAH (the Creator of our Universe)?
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

The question has been answered. Your challenge has been crushed. Time for you to bow down and ask Allah for forgiveness.



Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

#63

Unread post by Safiuddin » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:18 am

AAG,
You've only quoted from the Quran, a book written by men. Have you produced any real, measurable evidence of the existence of a supreme diety?
The presence of said book does not in and of itself confirm the presence of a God.
I am of the belief taht there is a certain power that shapes our world and lives, yet I don't have any logical way to explain it, nor do I have any proof of its existence.
What Danish is asking is that you provide evidence of your God.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#64

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:59 pm

Anajmi will have nothing but the Quran to offer as evidence. Ask him something and he will say the Quran says so. But why should one believe the Quran? He will say, because the Quran says. And on in goes in an infinite loop.

That is the logic of the faithful, so please don't pester him for real evidence. All he has to offer is the internal evidence and self-justification of the Quran.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#65

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:09 pm

You are the biggest looser because only loosers like you quit the faith in which they were born...
Really? That means the early Muslims who accepted Prophet Mohammed's new faith were losers. Your forefathers who became bohras were losers. Thousands of people who convert to Islam (a bragging point for Muslims) are losers.



Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

#66

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:59 pm

Humsafar,

You should learn to take it like a man once in a while and stop crying like a baby.

Safiuddin,

There is a lot of evidence in the book and there is a lot of evidence out there in the world. Have you read the book? The evidence was sufficient for me to believe, it is not sufficient for you to believe and that is your problem, not mine. The day you get "real" evidence, will be the day when your faith will be of no use, cause then it won't be faith, which is what is required. I am giving you the evidence that I have, if that is not enough, well then that is too bad for you. Take it or leave it.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#67

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:14 pm

You should learn to take it like a man once in a while and stop crying like a baby.
Now, what was that for? Who rattled your cage and yhy have started insulting babies?

And while we are at it, let me remind you that you still have to tie up a loose end in another thread ... about your latest discovery of allegory in the Quran.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#68

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:15 pm

You should learn to take it like a man once in a while and stop crying like a baby.
Now, what was that for? Who rattled your cage and why have you started insulting babies?

And while we are at it, let me remind you that you still have to tie up a loose end in another thread ... about your latest discovery of allegory in the Quran.



Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

#69

Unread post by Safiuddin » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:24 pm

AAG,
I'm not asking for support or justification of my views. My views are not your problem - accepted. But can you give some real world evidence to support the theory that a supreme diety exists then - as you pointed out in your last post?

I suppose based on your logic i could say the Goddess Isis exists and is living in a coastal apartment in the Mediterranean, since she was written about in books - books that were written by man/woman.

I'm not trying to put your hackles up - just asking for some evidence. The answer that it has to do with faith, and that so-and so just doesn't get it because they are faithless, is a convenient shelter and resort when rationality fails.
And please don't get personal - it's not necessary. Just try and think about it for a minute.



Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

#70

Unread post by Safiuddin » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:26 pm

AAG, to answer your question, yes, I have read the Quran. In English and Arabic.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#71

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:37 pm

The day you get "real" evidence, will be the day when your faith will be of no use, cause then it won't be faith, which is what is required.
Why would real evidence make faith useless? Real evidence on the contrary should reinforce faith. Faith and evidence become mutually exclusive only when one is fiction and other is fact.



Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

#72

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:44 pm

Humsafar,

I apologize, I did insult babies. ;)

As far my latest discovery is concerned, yeah, keep amusing yourself.

Safiuddin,

I don't need to think for a minute, I've thought about it for years. Having faith is completely rational. Most married men on this board simply have faith that their wives are faithful to them, not one has any evidence to prove it. If you are a faithless person then that is your problem.

As far as goddess Isis is concerned, she obviously doesn't require people to have faith in her, otherwise she wouldn't have given out her address.

Now to approach it in a different way, what kind of evidence do you need? Please spell it out so it would become easier for me to either dismiss it completely, or put together some effort to gather it.



Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

#73

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:51 pm

Humsafar,
Why would real evidence make faith useless?
That is like asking, "Why would, having a wife, mean I am married?"

You can't really answer the question without first having a chuckle. In my case, I will just have a chuckle.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#74

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:54 pm

As far my latest discovery is concerned, yeah, keep amusing yourself.
The classic anajmi exit strategy.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#75

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:04 pm

As far my latest discovery is concerned, yeah, keep amusing yourself.
No, what you are saying is that once you have a wife you will become unmarried.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#76

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:05 pm

oops!
"Why would, having a wife, mean I am married?"
No, what you are saying is that once you have a wife you will become unmarried.



Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

#77

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:06 pm

Safiuddin,

If you've read the quran then you should know that there is information in the quran which no man could've had 14 centuries ago. So, the source of the quran is no man.

Humsafar,

A smart person should always have an exit strategy so as to avoid wasting too much time on useless discussions.



Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

#78

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:07 pm

No, what you are saying is that once you have a wife you will become unmarried.
Not sure if you understood what I was saying. I think it is time you developed an exit strategy yourself.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#79

Unread post by porus » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:13 pm

There is no evidence for the existence of God, nor can one be constructed.

God is not created. And he/she/it is outside/beyond creation. Any property of God that would make sense to a human would have to be a creation and hence it cannot be a property of God.

There is no way of experiencing God that could make sense to a human.

So, what about all those holy men who claim to have encountered God? They are mere conjectures. To be sure, there is "inspiration", "intuition", "thinking out of the box" etc. Humans do not yet have knowledge of where these come from. So let us say they come from God. But that is not evidence for the existence of God. Just a conjecture.

Most ideas of God from anywhere are not new or earth-shattering. Powerful people became Gods, they became abstractions with the advent of the idea of monotheism, and occassionally people revert to calling powerful people Gods.

Can you derive proof of God's existence from his attriibutes as stated in, say, the Quran? For example, God is compassionate without limit. Is he? Where is the evidence for that? So, scriptures do not enlighten us on this question.

So, stop wasting your time and let Below Average non-Bohra have the last word.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#80

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:15 pm

I think it is time you developed an exit strategy yourself.
I don't have to. Only those who are cornered look for an escape.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#81

Unread post by porus » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:18 pm

By the way, that God is not created is itself a conjecture. However Bohras will readily agree as it is their interpretation of the Quran too.



Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

#82

Unread post by Alislam » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:19 pm

In order to prove kotharis wrong, we quote Quran, Prophet & Imams but when it comes to the basic tenets of Islam, the same Quran and Prophets/Imams way of life become useless..There cannot be more hypocrisy than this.

Use it to support our viewpoint and later discard it as a figment of someone's imagination.

A little ponder over one's viewpoint is essential here.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#83

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:00 pm

Alislam,

The Kothar and Sayedna invoke and quote quran to justify their actions. So we try to disprove them within the frame of reference they operate. In other words, we try to play by their own rules and show them that they are wrong. Nothing hypocritical about that.

Beyond that, the questions about religion and universe are philosophical musings. The curiosity of the human mind will never cease and nor will these questions.



Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

#84

Unread post by Danish » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:06 pm

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
WHO AND WHAT EXACTLY IS ALLAH (the Creator of our Universe)?
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

The question has been answered. Your challenge has been crushed. Time for you to bow down and ask Allah for forgiveness.
These are the wonderous nuggets of Islam in disbelief and disguise in reality. The One and Only, Eternal, Absolute, beget, begotten, Omniscience, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, etc., etc., all came down from Mithriasm and Zoroastrianism and hailed upon Quran, THE Final Word of God. Even the devil god Ahriman got titled in its name along with Allah and Ahrahim which the Muslims love to proclaim as "the most merciful" and "the most gracious". Google the pagan gods and goddesses such as Mithra, Ahura Mazda and Zoraster and find out the One and Only, neither did HE beget nor was HE begotten. The following are the basics for the kids:

http://rome.mrdonn.org/gods.html

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/midd ... hology.php

http://www.davis.k12.ut.us/ffjh/Thompso ... Persephone

Jinn/Kaba Blocks: http://travel.webshots.com/album/97077044DQeapQ

All about Kaba. God's House set on fire, damaged in flood and rebuilt several times and hajar-e-aswad (a meteorite black stone) broken in pieces and tied back in silver in the shape of a vagina in contrast to the phallus Shiva: http://www.sacred-destinations.com/saud ... a-kaba.htm

Ancient History/Mythology: http://www.mrdonn.org/ancienthistory.html



Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

#85

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:51 pm

Really? That means the early Muslims who accepted Prophet Mohammed's new faith were losers. Your forefathers who became bohras were losers. Thousands of people who convert to Islam (a bragging point for Muslims) are losers.
Humsafar,

If you want you can act like a cheapo and do nit picking... Danish has nothing to do with faith or religion because he does not believe in any religion... My forefathers and other muslims accepted Islam out of faith in the religion.. Do not insult them by comparing them with this gross idiot...



Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

#86

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:09 pm

I have a question for all the intelligent people on this forum...

What proof will convince you of the existence of Allah? Lets say I prove that Allah is "HE" and he is the only one and one master of the universe, will you believe it??? Even if Allah himself comes on planet earth and proves his existence are you going to accept it?? I am sure people like Danish will doubt him and ask someone else to confirm whether this Allah is the real Allah or not... So the bottom line is faith.. If you have faith in him then he exists everywhere but if you don't then no proof is good enough...

This applies to the prophet as well... And also to all the people who accepted Islam... Without faith no religion can exist..

And Humsafar you have yourself admitted in the past that you have faith in your religion... My question to you is from where did you get this faith??? Have you seen allah? If not then why do you want to remain a muslim??? Is it the social angle or you are a coward who does not have the balls to walk out of the religion in which you do not believe???
And if neither of the above is the reason then it is your faith that is binding you to this religion.



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#87

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:11 pm

Cheapo, nitpick??

Har ek baat pe kahate ho tum ki tu kya hai
tumhin kaho ke yeh andaaz-e-guftagu kya hai



Humsafar
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

#88

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:22 pm

Language, language Arif dear, get a grip on yourself. I'm sure you've ruptured a few synapses and even lost a few neurons. Hyperventilation will only make it worse. So calm down and take a deep breath.

First, I never admitted to any faith. You must be hallucinating.

Second, intellectually you are too raw to make any intelligent conversation about anything.

About existence of god, please read what porus wrote.

And please spare me all the back and forth about I said this and you said this. You're becoming very tiresome.



Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

#89

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:26 pm

Humsafar,

Very cleverly you have dodged the entire post by writing an out of context sher and then criticizing my intellectual capabilities...

BTW: If I am tiresome why do you bother to reply to my posts... You can also spare me of all this back and forth because believe me this feeling is completely mutual between us...



Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

#90

Unread post by Danish » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:23 pm

Originally posted by Aareef:
What proof will convince you of the existence of Allah? Lets say I prove that Allah is "HE" and he is the only one and one master of the universe, will you believe it???
None. Absolutely NOT.
Even if Allah himself comes on planet earth and proves his existence are you going to accept it??
As a reminder, in case you forgot, say, O people, this chauvinist invented male deity is already on earth for quite some time now but apparently locked up by HIS slaves in protection for servicing and worshipping. The problem is that HE was abandoned eons ago and only his goofy reflections remain that is being dramatized in its highest esteem just to prove to all other gods and goddesses that HE is still the MOST SUPREME, the ONE AND ONLY and the MOST MERCIFUL and EVER PRESENT. Unfortunately this male deity also has his rivals near by being abused and tortured. So no, I don't have any doubts whatsoever for HIS existence.