Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

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ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: aere bohri's safe in Pakistan

#31

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:13 am

Read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... ia_Muslims


In the days leading up to the religious holiday of Ashura, leading members of the Pakistani Shia community in Pakistan received anonymous text messages warning of violence to come: "Kill, Kill, Shia".

In recent years, Ashura - which not long ago throughout the country was an occasion which Sunnis, Shias and others among Pakistan's ethno-religious milieu would commemorate together in harmony - has become an annual flashpoint in Pakistan's increasingly sectarian and violent religious culture.

Tragically, and despite high-profile efforts by the government to clamp down on the ability to militants to target worshippers such as the limitating cellphone service and banning of motorcycles from public roads during the holiday, this year's Ashura in Pakistan signified a continuation of the country's spiral into self-destructive communal violence.

A suicide bomber in the city of Rawalpindi hurled a grenade into the midst of a Shia procession before detonating his vest and killing 23 people, while other attacks throughout the country from Karachi to Dera Ismail Khan claimed the lives of dozens more.

The attacks were claimed by Pakistani Taliban (TTP) militants who denounced the victims as "blasphemers" and stated they were engaged in a "war of belief" with Shias - stating further that attacks against them would continue until they, in their millions, were wiped out of the country.

That the fanatical nihilism of terrorist attacks against public religious ceremonies - ceremonies which have been observed since the country's founding - has become normalised and routine is a sign of the depths to which Pakistan has sunk in terms of sectarianism and social fragmentation over the past decade.




Pakistanis demand accountability for
targeted killings
Once a respected and well-integrated minority in a country where they comprise roughly 20 per cent of the population and count the nation's founder as one of their own, Shia Muslims within Pakistan have become a community under siege in recent years and are facing a situation which is increasingly being described by many Pakistanis as a slow-motion genocide.

Several hundred Pakistani Shias have been killed this year alone in increasingly high-profile attacks by extremist militants, including one incident caught on video in August in which passengers were forced off a bus in the Gilgit region and executed by armed militants who checked their victims' ID cards before killing whomsoever they could identify as being Shia.

It is believed that since the early 1990s, nearly 4,000 Pakistani Shias have been murdered in sectarian attacks, and at a pace which has rapidly accelerated in recent years. The tragic irony of this increasingly violent sectarianism is that Muhammad Ali Jinnah, widely known and revered as the "Father of the Nation" of Pakistan was himself a Shia Muslim though he maintained a secular public religious identity and preached the same for the country which he created.

His famous speech to Pakistanis in which he said: "You are free; you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed…", signifies how far modern-Pakistan has departed from its founding ideals and become a place where the country's founder himself would likely be threatened and unwelcome.

Ahmadis, Barelvis, Christians and Hindus have all become subject to persecution within an increasingly religiously-chauvinistic Pakistani society, but it is Shias who have suffered the highest toll of bloodshed and whose fate is most tied to external forces intent on using Pakistan as a battleground for broader regional conflicts.

Pakistan as sectarian battleground

In an interview given to Reuters, Malik Ishaq, the leader of one of Pakistan's most notorious anti-Shia extremist groups Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) declared Shia Muslims "the greatest infidels on earth" and demanded that the Pakistani state "declare Shia non-Muslims on the basis of their beliefs".

Ishaq's demagoguery is not idle talk, LeJ death squads are believed to have been responsible for the killings of thousands of Shias throughout the country, including a campaign of targeted murders in 2011 which killed dozens of Shia doctors, lawyers and politicians residing in the major port-city of Karachi.

One lower-level LeJ operative now in police custody, Mahmoud Baber, reportedly choked with pride and emotion while describing to reporters his "great satisfaction" at being involved in 14 murders over his militant career, saying of the organisations purpose: "Get rid of Shias. That is our goal. May God help us".

Despite his unrepentant advocacy and propagation of violence, Ishaq himself has been acquitted over 30 times on homicide and terrorism charges - an incredible run of judicial fortune which many have attributed to covert support from elements within Pakistan's national security establishment which have long cultivated such groups as potential weapons against regional rival such as India.

Indeed, while organisations like the LeJ, Pakistani Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba and offshoots such as the Sipah-e-Sahaba (SSP) focus their violence on Pakistani Shias, they are representative of a broader regional narrative to which the Shia community is largely a victim of geopolitical circumstance and manipulation by external parties.

Pakistan has long been a front in the battle for regional influence between Iran and Saudi Arabia, and the patronage of violent extremist groups primarily by the latter has been utilised as a tool to counter potential Iranian influence within the country.

The Pakistani Shia population, as well as the Pakistan's social cohesion as a whole, have been the collateral damage in this battle as wealthy Gulf donors have armed and funded sectarian death squads to wreak havoc against Pakistani Shias and other religious minorities within the country.




Dozens killed in string of Pakistan bombings
WikiLeaks cables released in 2009 described the extent of which this support has been facilitated: "Donors in Saudi Arabia as the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide… for groups aligned with Al-Qaida and focused on undermining stability in Afghanistan and Pakistan".

The leaked report describes in detail the extent to which wealthy, conservative Gulf donors have sought to use Pakistan as a battlefront for their war against Iran - a war in which they see all Shias across the world as being legitimate targets for violence.

An estimated $100m per year has flowed from donors from the Gulf to fund extremist groups in Pakistan and spread sectarian ideology - a massive sum especially for a developing country such as Pakistan and one which has been increasingly successful in subverting the heterodox and tolerant Islamic tradition which has historically been prevalent in the subcontinent.

Children in particular, often pliable candidates for suicide bombings, have been specifically recruited for indoctrination with those "between the ages of 8 to 12" and whose families are "suffering extreme financial difficulties" being the most favoured targets of recruitment by sectarian extremist groups.

Extremist religious sentiments

While Shia militant groups such as Sipah-e-Muhammad also do exist, these are widely considered by analysts to be marginal and largely reactionary - the Shia community has overwhelmingly been the recipient of violence as opposed to its purveyor and has become the target of external parties using Pakistan as a field upon which to settle regional scores, as well as seeking to give violent expression to their own extremist religious sentiments.

As described in an editorial by the Karachi-based Express Tribune: "A fact recognised by all in Pakistan is that the people of the country are not sectarian-minded. Before jihad took hold of Pakistan and extremist clerics became threatening, there was considerable harmony between the sects. Muharram was not the season of sectarian violence and mayhem. Today, the world understands that the intensification of the sectarian feeling among the clerics is actually a result of a war relocated from Pakistan's neighbourhood in the Gulf."

Tragically, it has become Pakistani Shias, a community which has little if anything to do with the increasingly heated conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia, that has today become among its biggest victims of that escalating conflict.

There is growing realisation within Pakistan that the cynical manipulation of the country by regional actors is leading to a potential existential crisis for the state. Shias make up a large percentage of the country's population of 180 million and account for a significant proportion of the professional class which is vital to the nation's continued viability.

In recent months, high-profile religious leaders from across the country convened in the capital of Islamabad for a conference intended to promote intra-communal unity and "put the genie of sectarianism back in the bottle", while secular political leaders have also made forceful denunciations of the increasingly violent sectarian chauvinism within the country.

Despite these encouraging pronouncements, the horrifying scenes of murder which played out on Pakistani streets during this year's Ashura commemorations are a stark reminder of how deeply embedded violently extremist religious attitudes have become within segments of Pakistani society in recent years.

Many analysts have warned that Pakistani Shias increasingly face "sectarian cleansing" from the country if violence against them continues to accelerate, a fate which would be a tragic end to a community which for most of the Pakistan's history has lived in communal harmony with majority Sunnis and others within Pakistan's once-inclusive ethnic and religious tapestry.

If the measure of a society is how it treats its minorities, the slow-motion genocide being perpetrated against the Shia community in Pakistan is indicative of a country which has acquiesced to being devoured from the inside-out and which has sacrificed for itself any vision of a tolerant and progressive future.

Opportunistic Gulf ideologues have turned Pakistan into a charnel-house in pursuit of their own sectarian and political agendas; until Pakistanis forcefully reject the purpose towards which their country is being cynically utilised, the downward spiral of communal violence will proceed and the fate of Pakistan's Shia community will continue to be marked by increasingly wanton massacres and bloodshed.

Where Sunnis and Shias within Pakistan once commemorated their holidays together in relative harmony, there has grown an increasingly stark divide - unless it is bridged and unless imported extremist ideologies are stifled, the future of Pakistan as a unified and cohesive state will continue to be threatened.

Murtaza Hussain is a Toronto-based writer and analyst focused on issues related to Middle Eastern politics.

Follow him on Twitter: @MazMHussain

The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy.

rang
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:50 am

Re: aere bohri's safe in Pakistan

#32

Unread post by rang » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:27 am

Just Today Morning, I was with some Chamber of Commerce Members in Karachi. Some Shia’s were also enjoying cup of Tea with us. According to them the Govt, the Opposition and the chief Justice was supporting the LAshkar in Pakistan. In coming election they will also adjust some NA and PA seats with them. Prediction was that April till June may be a toughest Time for the Shias as they may be slaughter like Cow and Goats. These Lashkar are trying to enter the Pakistan Politics and control the Nuclear Weapons of Pakistan. At present Pakistan is the 4th Nuclear Power after USA, Russia and China. These Taliban’s are mad people and they are not even afraid of any consequences. Their main Target is Israel. Now I am afraid what would be the faith of the Bohra’s if this situation arises? Shia’s will definitely get the Help from Iran and may also take weapons in hand. Almost 30 % of Pakistan Air force and Army are Shia, there is a chance of Civil war and Bangladesh type situation expected (as many Top Brasses in Army at that time in 1970 were Bengalis and they revolted against the state and Army). Sunnis lives are also at stake as they are also been killed by the Lashkar e Jhangvi People. In coming month we are preparing for Salgirah. All the Bohra’s house will be lighted with colorful lights in the midst of the Killing of other Muslim Brothers. GOD knows what message it would create among the Muslim Umah? And GOD Forbids if Bohra’s Mohallas are attacked who would come to their Help. I think it would be wise if we Bohra Jamat join the Shia’s stream in protest and in this way in case of any unpleasant situation we may expect some help from the Shia’s.
One think more, A shia can only be tracked down by his name or information, but a Bohra can easily be tracked by the Uniform. So I suggest that Either we should be allowed to wear a normal Topi which every muslim wears or wear Topi in MAsjid and jamatKhanas only. Till know all the Bohra's killed by Gunshots were in Topi's. We are not identified by our Beard , as all Muslim have them.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: aere bohri's safe in Pakistan

#33

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:11 am

rang,

i know this may sound sadistic and cruel, but the only way our bohras will learn a lesson and have some common-sense instilled in them, is by strictly following mola's farmaans: continue wearing topi's everywhere, wear colorful ridhas, celebrate mola's salgirah with utmost pomp and grandeur by taking out a massive procession filled with elephants, camels and monkeys, burhani guards resplendent in their tower of london beefeater uniforms, burhani scout bands glittering with gold tassels, a whole contingent of zakereen reciting marsiyas at full throttle, huge throng of disciplined shabab doing maatam e hussain in unison and goose-steeping like hitler's nazi forces, chariots filled with amils, shaikhs, and zaadas and drawn by the finest arabian horses whilst shaded with elaborate roman canopies, and post parade have a huge and labrez jaman with 4 kharas, 4 mithaas, 2 types of biryani and pulao, washed down with the finest sherbets and milk-shakes. all this to be followed by a glittering fire-works display that will set the karachi skies ablaze and strike awe and shock into the hearts and minds of beholders.

you needlessly worry about bohras in pakistan. why should you? who are you? i mean are you greater than bewe mola? when our rehbars are presiding over us, koi hamaro baal bhi waako nahi kari sakey! mola has said repeatedly, ad nauseum in every bayan, that - mari dua mara momeneen na wastey chhe, tamne hussain na gham sivay koi gham nahi mile, bas tame maatam karta rehjo ane wajeebat ma ziyada si ziyada rakam lakhavta rehjo.

simple. keep doing purjosh maatam in the name of hussain and dedicate it for bewe mola, give all you can towards wajebaat, including your torn chaddi's and lungi's, and all will be fine. besides, and i have said this before, we are neither sunni, nor shia. we fit into neither category. we are UNIQUE, we are DAWOODI ABDE BOHRA! when we do not identify with either faction, then why worry? in fact, i would suggest that kaderbhai mansoos issue an urgent press release that bohras are an independent group with no affiliations or loyalty to shias, whom we consider kafirs and enemies of bohras.

khalas. problem over!

shapur
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:35 am

Re: aere bohri's safe in Pakistan

#34

Unread post by shapur » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:21 am

Br. AZ at his hilarious best :-
i know this may sound sadistic and cruel, but the only way our bohras will learn a lesson and have some common-sense instilled in them, is by strictly following mola's farmaans: continue wearing topi's everywhere, wear colorful ridhas, celebrate mola's salgirah with utmost pomp and grandeur by taking out a massive procession filled with elephants, camels and monkeys, burhani guards resplendent in their tower of london beefeater uniforms, burhani scout bands glittering with gold tassels, a whole contingent of zakereen reciting marsiyas at full throttle, huge throng of disciplined shabab doing maatam e hussain in unison and goose-steeping like hitler's nazi forces, chariots filled with amils, shaikhs, and zaadas and drawn by the finest arabian horses whilst shaded with elaborate roman canopies, and post parade have a huge and labrez jaman with 4 kharas, 4 mithaas, 2 types of biryani and pulao, washed down with the finest sherbets and milk-shakes. all this to be followed by a glittering fire-works display that will set the karachi skies ablaze and strike awe and shock into the hearts and minds of beholders.

Sounds like a running commentary of the state of events likely to prevail in all districts this current week. Wishing all a good time !!

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: aere bohri's safe in Pakistan

#35

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:37 pm

Some notes on the Shia-Sunni conflict
By Dr. Omar Ali,

3QuarksDaily.com

“Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.” (Karl Marx)

Shia killing in Pakistan started in earnest in the 1980s and proximate causes include the CIA’s Afghan project, the Pakistani state’s use of that project to prepare Jihadi cadres for other uses, the influence of Saudi Arabia and modern Takfiri-Salafist movements, the rivalry between Iran and its Arab neighbors and so on. Some aspects of this
(especially in light of the history Pakistan) are covered in an article I wrote earlier. Here I want to discuss a little more about the historical background to this conflict. The aim is to provide a brief overview of how this conflict has played out at some points in Islamic history and to argue that if both Shias and Sunnis are to live amicably within the same state, the state needs to be secular. The alternatives are oppression of one sect or endless conflict.

The origins of the Arab empire lie in the first Islamic state established in Medina under the leadership of the prophet Mohammed (this historical narrative has been criticized as being too quick to accept the various histories generated a century or more later in the Umayyad and Abbasid empires; skeptics claim that the early origins of the Umayyad empire and its dominant religion may be very different from what its own mythmakers later claimed. But this is a minority view and is not a concern of this article). The succession to the prophet became a matter of some controversy (primarily on the issue of Ali’s claim to the caliphate) and tensions between prominent companions of the Prophet eventually spilled over into open warfare (the first civil war). This civil war had not yet been finally settled when Ali was assassinated and Muavia, the Umayyad governor of Syria, managed to consolidate his rule over most of the nascent Arab empire. Ali’s elder son Hassan eventually renounced his claim and settled terms with Muavia, leading to a period of relative peace. But when Muavia died and his son Yazid took over in the Umayyad capital of Damascus, there was a challenge from Ali’s younger son Hussain.

This ended with the famous events at Karbala, where Hussain and most male members of his extended family were brutally killed by a large Umayyad force. Supporters of Ali and opponents of the Ummayads (the two categories were not always synonymous) launched a series of revolts against various Ummayad rulers, including several led by different members of the extended family of Ali (and by extension, by Hashemites; since in tribal Arab terms, this was also a struggle between the Hashemite clan and the Ummayad clan). During this time the supporters of Ali and his family (Shia means partisan, as in partisan of Ali) developed their own version of Islamic history in which Ali was the rightful successor to the prophet and his right was usurped by the first three caliphs. They also developed various notions about the special status of Ali and his family. Yazid and his Ummayad successors were thus (with varying intensity) regarded as illegitimate rulers and various Shia groups formed natural foci of opposition to Ummayad rule.

This Shia resentment became one of the forces co-opted by Abu Abbas As-Saffa in the Abbassid revolt against Ummayad rule; but Shia claims were quickly cast aside once Abbassid rule was established. The Abbassids, in spite of Hashemite origins and their initial use of Shia resentment to mobilize support for their revolt, soon settled on a
broadly Sunni identity and much of what we now recognize as classical Sunni Islam was created by scholars working in Abbassid times (sometimes with official sanction, at other times in spite of official persecution). Shias themselves split into various sects with doctrinal differences as well as differences about the line of Imams recognized as authentic, but they all shared some notion of the special status of Ali and his descendants and of the illegitimacy of all or most Ummayad rulers. They also adopted (but in some cases, later toned down or discarded) theological notions that were sometimes very distant from mainstream Sunni Islam.

These early conflicts provided later rulers and revolutionaries with contrasting identities that could be cynically used or sincerely adopted to differentiate themselves from rivals or to revolt against them. These conflicting groups were not always the same as they are today because neither Shia nor Sunni identities were exactly what they are today. e.g. twelver Shias were not always the most prominent Shia sect; In the 10th century, it was the Ismailis who ruled from Egypt as the Fatimid caliphate, and there were several Zaydi Shia Kingdoms when the twelvers were relatively invisible. The twelvers themselves adopted some very harsh public rituals of condemnation of the first three caliphs in early Safavid times that were not standard in previous centuries. But whatever the exact form, there were always
recognizably Shia and Sunni groups with distinct historical and religious narratives.

These conflicts created rival versions of crucial historical events that became deeply embedded in Islamicate historiography and popular culture. Differences were not always violent and in larger multicultural empires they could be suppressed or subordinated to the needs of statecraft. A syncretic ruler like Akbar (the great Moghul) could appoint a Shia as his chief judge (though not without resistance); but the divisions existed and could be exploited by anyone who wished to conspire against such an appointment. Thus, this particular judge ended up as one of the five
martyrs of Shiaism when his rivals got the upper hand in the time of Akbar’s more orthodox successor Jahangir.

Within the core Arab and Persian heartland of Islam, the distinction between Shia and Sunni acquired a rather different edge when the Safavid dynasty conquered Iran and imposed twelver Shiaism as its state religion, distinguishing itself from the Sunni Ottoman empire in the process and making Shia Islam an integral part of Persian
identity. Their prolonged clash with the Sunni Ottoman empire included a healthy dose of anti-Sunni polemics, and vice versa. So successful was this fusion of Persian and Shia identities that even when the Safavids were replaced by a Sunni emperor (Nadir Shah) who made an effort to bring Iran back towards Sunni Islam, this effort had very little success.

But Ottoman-Safavid polemics were mild compared to what was brewing in Arabia. The 18th century Islamic reformer Mohammed ibn Abdul Wahab was virulently anti-Shia. Driven not by the pragmatic needs of statecraft but by the logic of a true believer, he insisted that the theological deviations of Shiaism and their historical role as rebels against the authority of the early Islamic empires put them outside the pale of Islam (he had similar views about Sufis and most other Muslims, following the same logic of purity and “one truth, one religion, one law”). His followers mined the propaganda of past conflicts (propaganda that naturally included the creation of holy traditions and archetypal “historic battles”) to create a narrative of Shia-hatred that is unmatched by any other sect of Islam. In the
Wahabist version of history, Islam was a united, theologically pure, crystal clear divine project that was supposed to literally conquer the world. Its followers set out on this divinely appointed taks and were going from conquest to conquest until civil war erupted in the reign of the 4th caliph (Hazrat Ali) thanks to the machinations of internal enemies (including the Yemeni Jew Ibn Saba… a story that is vigorously contested by Shias). In this version of history, Shias are not just another sect within Islam. They are the enemy within. At best, they are dupes who are unwittingly serving the interests of infidels; at worst, they are conscious enemies of true Islam who need to be eliminated if Islam is to successfully fight off the infidels and conquer the world.

This narrative was not created denovo by Wahab. A thousand years of Shia and Sunni polemics had left a vast store of opposing propaganda narratives from which Wahab picked out the juiciest parts and gave them a special edge. His followers have since been instrumental in inserting this unusually harsh version of shia-hatred into the broader
salafist movement. When Wahab formed an alliance with the Al-Saud family in Arabia, this alliance created the first Saudi state in 1744. Fighters from this state captured Karbala in 1801, destroyed shia shrines and massacred local Shias in large numbers. They then captured Mecca and Medina from the Ottomans, but in doing so they over-reached
and their state was destroyed by Mohammed Ali Pasha (Ottoman governor of Egypt). But they rose again and then again to become the modern kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Though the ruling family of Saudi Arabia (like most ruling families in history) prioritizes its own rule over any theological niceties, their alliance with Wahabi theologians and
the position of Wahabi orthodoxy as the official ideology of the Kingdom has made intense Shia-hatred a feature of Saudi religiosity.

When the Saudis found themselves suddenly rich with oil wealth the state as well as private citizens were eager to promote their version of “true Islam” all over the world. At the level of the state, the ancient conflict between Persians and Arabs was also easily cast in Shia-Sunni terms, especially after the rise of Shia theocracy in Iran. Thus the spread of Salafist ideas in mainstream Sunni discourse was driven by both parties in Saudi Arabia: true believers promoted these ideas because they sincerely believed them to be correct and “Islamically necessary”; cynical statesmen promoted them because they saw them as a convenient tool with which to attack Iran and Iranian influence (the Iranians did the same on their side).

The almost pathological hatred nurtured by Americans and the Shia Iranian theocracy against each other, and the longstanding relationship of the US with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States led to American support (or toleration?) of virulently anti-Shia groups, at least until those groups turned their guns directly on Americans. Some observers would go further and insist that the US and Israel actively support Shia-Sunni conflict and play more than just a permissive role in the process. But irrespective of the truth of such theories, the fact remain that there is a long hisory of conflict and it is very likely that Wahabi-influenced Salafists would promote their lethal brand of Shia-hatred with or without assistance from the CIA, the Saudis (or any other state aiming to become the dominant Arab power in the region) would find it convenient to add a Sunni-Shia edge to their propaganda against the Persian enemy, and Iran would act as a patron of Shia causes, especially where these overlap with the needs of Iranian state policy.

The point of reciting this history (in briefest outline) is that this conflict has deep roots in Islamic history and can be easily exploited, particularly when religion is actively mixed with politics, especially in states that lack deep “secular” foundations and institutions. Conflict is not everywhere inevitable. If states become secular and secular discourse dominates, then the fights will be over other things (there will still be fights, that much is given) and perhaps they will not be as apocalyptic as religious wars can become. Domestically too, a secular state could suppress or bypass such
conflicts. It would see competition for power between different groups using different ideologies, but religious civil war is orders of magnitude more horrific than the world of democratic elections and their associated politics; where the bare minimum basis of such electoral politics and associated administrative institutions already exists, as in Pakistan, that system is hugely superior to fighting to the death to establish a theocratic state.

If the state withers away (as it has in Somalia) then there will be no choice. Nature abhors a vacuum, so order will eventually be established by some local armed militias or some sufficiently resourced and motivated outside power. In Islamic countries that will mostly mean armed Islamist militias organized on sectarian lines (fantasies of Western university-based anarchists notwithstanding). With the US experience in Afghanistan and Iraq in front of us, and with Chinese imperialists not yet ready for prime-time, it’s unlikely that outside powers will step in except in the most oil-rich or the least populated regions.

There is another alternative in theory: Instead of a secular state, we could have an “Islamic state” that manages to govern with popular consent and with relatively transparent methods of organizing politics and transferring power from one group (or person) to another. For various reasons, I think that is not a real possibility in this day and age. Some facsimile of a democratic state has been established in Iran by the Shia clergy, but even this (far from satisfactory) system is impossible to conceive in a state that is not overwhelmingly dominated by one sect, where that sect is not Shia, and where that country is not named Iran. The Shia clergy in Iran are the most sophisticated Islamic clergy on the planet (leaving aside tiny sects like the Ismailis). NO Sunni clergy can manage that feat, not even the
latest great White hope of Sunni Islamism, the Turkish Islamists. Their state will do well as long as its European-style secularist structure is intact. If they manage to undermine that, they will cook their own goose. Without a detailed argument, this is just a bald assertion, but it seems a very plausible one to me. Where the state has large Shia AND Sunni populations, or where there is a large non-Muslim minority, modern secular democracy is by far the better alternative. Islamization involves working through the accumulated detritus of 1400 years of Shia versus Sunni polemics. Even if there are no other religions present, any state that wishes to create an authentically “Islamic” system will face the task of generating a fresh and innovative synthesis while having millions of individuals, dozens of parties, and several outside powers avoid the temptation to start a violent confrontation based on existing medieval sects and salafist fantasies. Given the current state of Islamist discourse, this seems so unlikely that it’s not even worth trying. This is a sweeping judgement. but I am happy to put my money where my mouth is. I am willing to bet that NO Muslim country will be able to create a functioning “Islamic” system, clearly distinct in spirit and substance from current secular models, established without harsh suppression of minorities and irreligious people; and I mean suppression by currently fashionable mainstream standards, not to speak of sky-high academic Left-wing standards.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Bohras and Karachi Situation

#36

Unread post by accountability » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:23 pm

Karachi is going through big turmoil right now. Our bohra community is also being targetted. I have come to know through very reliable sources, that there will be a split in MQM in near future. If that occurs it will be very bloody and chaotic. Also bohras in Saddar, Clifton, Shabbir abad and Haidery are marked. I would urge bohras to be extra careful, and avoid excess show.
I dont know if our jamat will ever do any thing for betterment or safety of bohras. Not a day passes when something is happening in our community. Last week a bloody robbery in haidery, where one of the family member is still in ICU. Then there was bohra shop keeper killed in defence, there was another robbery in haidery. All this is happening, but in karachi, various jamats are treating it as normal business, they are forcing people to light their bldgs and apartments on Syedna Saheb's 102nd salgirah. it is the hieght of insensitivity. The whole city is burning, and you want to add fuel to fire.
But as jamats are always insensitive, bohras should take care of themselves, take evasive action and use less visibility.

Rising Star
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:33 am

Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#37

Unread post by Rising Star » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:58 pm

they want to light up buildings coz if you are killed then YOU are killed, but if u are saved it will be declared as MB's mojisa :D

so all profit goes to kothar at end....

Bohra spring
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#38

Unread post by Bohra spring » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:39 pm

There is a better way of handling this matter than hiding or living in fear...I know it easy to say this from the comfort of being overseas...

Are there learnings from the Gujarat or Lanaat riots that can be helpful... Something is better than doing nothing if lives are being lost ?

How are other Shias responding ?

Turning down the festivity is a good start...

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#39

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:18 am

There has to be be a stop to everyday matammi majlis followed by Jaman. No more dabba scheme. When you prepare food for the masses, the poor people around will attack you verbally and eventually with force. We are known for cooking little children in our halleem. Close the jamatkhanas just kkep to masjids for prayers only. Peppar spay for all ladies and fire power for defense of dukans. If they keep looting you and you dont fight back you become an easy target. If you live like a sheep does not mean die like one. Kothar will not help you, they are buying their own way out.

mnoorani
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:05 am

Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#40

Unread post by mnoorani » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:29 am

Seeker has rightly said. The bohras are the soft targets. It is hight time that the Bohras of Pakistan realise gthay have to safeguard themselves and that Mola or his henchmen or the local dawat dignitaries are going to do nothing. They saw at the last blasts when the Muffy ran away to escape and surrounded himself with luxuriues that the rich Bohras of Sri Lanka could offer. It was the non bohra muslims who came to their rescue. The very same people who are called the Ola Musalamaano !.
I hope that some sense prevails in the hearts and minds of the Bohras of Pakistan. They should first of all stop taking part in the Dai's Milad Celebrations and pull down the colourfull lights from their houses. Another thing would be to cut down on the noorani libaas and dress more humbly . Another surprise is the lack of Pakistani members on the forum let there be some more interaction perhaps others could provide solutions.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
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Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#41

Unread post by seeker110 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:40 am

There are many Pakistanis on the forum. Just like Yemanese we are of different class or caste. Even in our masjids the Pakistanis hang out in separate groups. Division occurs specially when the cricket teams are playing. Also the Indians tend to be more of vegetarians and less meat eaters. I am sorry to say but this is a lot of Pakistani's feels as to Indians being a little miser. I have gone to parties where the host was Indian Bohri. To many veg dishes and not enough meat. Also Pakistanis are looked upon as barbaric in nature. Must be the meat.

An Indian friend was shocked to see how we play with guns at my place. It was only a BB gun. I have made some blow guns, and they are good to target practice by just blowing into a PVC pipe with a small dowel with a pointy nail. My wife hides my guns like ashtrays in bohras house. We also have all our school friends who are Muslims. So we are familiar with Islam from Sunny point of view. Hindus are novelty for us. I feel more at home with a Pakistani muslim than a Bohra Indian. This is just my personal views, other might have different observation.

rang
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:50 am

Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#42

Unread post by rang » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:00 am

accountability wrote:Karachi is going through big turmoil right now. Our bohra community is also being targetted. I have come to know through very reliable sources, that there will be a split in MQM in near future. If that occurs it will be very bloody and chaotic. Also bohras in Saddar, Clifton, Shabbir abad and Haidery are marked. I would urge bohras to be extra careful, and avoid excess show.
I dont know if our jamat will ever do any thing for betterment or safety of bohras. Not a day passes when something is happening in our community. Last week a bloody robbery in haidery, where one of the family member is still in ICU. Then there was bohra shop keeper killed in defence, there was another robbery in haidery. All this is happening, but in karachi, various jamats are treating it as normal business, they are forcing people to light their bldgs and apartments on Syedna Saheb's 102nd salgirah. it is the hieght of insensitivity. The whole city is burning, and you want to add fuel to fire.
But as jamats are always insensitive, bohras should take care of themselves, take evasive action and use less visibility.
Pakistani Bohra’s are like Zombies. No True advice works on them. I have tried many time by giving my Humble advices in many matters of life, but instead of being serious they laugh at me, they think I am WASAMRA (Excommunicated). Few days back I was advising one of my Bohra friends to avoid Bohra Topi in Bazar, and you know what he said? ‘HAJE FARMAN NATHI AUO’.

zinger
Posts: 1970
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Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#43

Unread post by zinger » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:12 am

seeker110 wrote:We are known for cooking little children in our halleem.
I know you hate us... but isnt calling us cannibals a little tooooo far-fetched? :shock:

mnoorani
Posts: 425
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Re: Bohras and Karachi Situation

#44

Unread post by mnoorani » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:36 am

zinger wrote:
seeker110 wrote:We are known for cooking little children in our halleem.
I know you hate us... but isnt calling us cannibals a little tooooo far-fetched? :shock:

This dates back to the pre colonial times. There was a rumour spread that bohras were cannibals. This turned out to be in favour of the bohras as during sectarian or communal riots, this rumour often frightened people and left Bohra mohallas alone. I was even told that during British times a case was fought by the Bohras in Jhalra Patan (rajasthan) to dispel this rumour. Bohras won the case and the British wanted to remove the local ruler because of this false accusation against the Bohras community. However the Bohras forgave the local ruler and so allowed him to keep his throne .
It is to be noted that the Bohra community was widely respected in olden times. Ask someone in their eighties as how well the Bohras were trusted then and you will have the answer. Often the local rulers would ask the community to pray for rain and for other blessings. Bohras then were pious and God fearing ,plus the rich Bohras were very generous. And the clergy were the true followers of Ali in piety and humility.

ozmujaheed
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Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#45

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:28 am

I think we cannot sit back and watch fellow Bohras loose their lives. We cannot sit back and watch Shia suffer. First we need to make Bohras safer then we can assist Shia too. This is concern for our fellow Bohra brothers regardless they are Abdes or Progs. Our political issues are nothing compared to the brutal carnage in Pakistan

I suggest Bohras in Pakistan take their own matters in hand as they have to decide to they want to end up as their Ismaili pioneers, exiled or underground. Waiting for kothar is pointless and even then they have absolutely no clue how to solve such a major complex issue.

There is so much money and firepower, and politics involved bohras have no clout or capacity to respond and get noticed. We have to seek sympathy and reasoning from the aggressor.

Through expert intelligence chatter and my research which is available on the Internet the biggest contention the extremist have is the insult Shia ritually burst by insulting the 3 Khalifa and Lady Aisha. We have to stop this immediately. We have to publicly apologise and remove this from our ideology. Not insulting has no place in the Shia ritual. Not saying does not make one a lessor Shia or commit sin. There is also no sawab in insulting the Sunni respected personality. Especially if you know your life will be in danger.

Again Sayedna should take responsibility of foolishly creating a this lanat culture, progressives have been complaining but no one would listen...now see the tragic consequence

Secondly the shirk rituals of Sajada to diai, exalting him to be equal to super human need to be removed from documented sermons, madeh etc. this clearly provokes Salafi anger. Stubbornness is not logical when you are minority in a sharia state. We should stop being provocative

Sunni or Wahhabi do not have major issues. With the way Shia pray. So some other small botheration a are not the cause of this hate that is being propagated .

Open your mosques and public places to non bohras. Show them you are harmless and inclusive.

All this has to be done with sincerity and not some PR bluff.

Prominent bohras have to setup a reconciliation team and take the initiative to talk to the extremist communication is the key . Send someone to Saudi Arabia and Middle East to seek mediation. It has to be made clear that bohras are not part of any issue Saudis have with Iran , if this is an extension of that problem we are collateral victims. The group propagating this need to be educated that we are not a threat to the, in anyway . I am not suggesting back stabbing shia but honesty will save lives.

This does not guarantee they will back off , if their mission is to forcibly convert Shia that is a separate issue in itself . But it will reduce the temperature and by doing that even if one life is saved , that is enough.

If we are to remain arrogant and stubborn not to change in such an environment..unfortunately we will read more stories of deaths and suffering from Pakistan . At present I do not see how Pakistan government can bring this under control. It could spiral out of control like in Iraq and Afghanistan ...the difference is Pakistan has a large Bohra pollution and by probability calculation more chances of a Bohra becoming a victim.

I also read Shia may respond by self defence and violence and this could raise the spectre and violence to a new unimaginable serious level, there is speak of civil war. I pray you avoid this state and do not see those dark days.

think
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Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#46

Unread post by think » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:44 am

regardless of the volatile situation; two mithas two klharas is on going , sajda tuje wajib hai and khaal ke juti bana ke pehna do and lanaat to the three khalifas has still not stopped. Attend any moharram majlis or otherwise and hear yourself reciting lanaatullah.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#47

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:03 pm

think wrote:regardless of the volatile situation; two mithas two klharas is on going , sajda tuje wajib hai and khaal ke juti bana ke pehna do and lanaat to the three khalifas has still not stopped. Attend any moharram majlis or otherwise and hear yourself reciting lanaatullah.
so whats your problem? in fact you should be proud that abdes are enjoying labrez kharas mithaas and doing sajdas to dai and saying laanats on the infidels. that is all because of the niraali shaanat of our mola, his beshumaar karam ane ehsaan that they are drinking roohe afza and aabe hayat in his thanda saaya.

let bullets fly, let other shias be gruesomely slaughtered, no one can harm us. one or two odd bohras being shot is nothing abnormal. in fact more bohras are shaheed paying wajebaat than at the hands of shia-haters.

think
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#48

Unread post by think » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:26 pm

wo badshah bane baithe hain muqadar se
magar mizaj hai wohe bhikari ka.
utho o bohri ke tum ko jagane wala koi nahi hai
mohafiz apne aap ho tum ye yaad rakho
parosi mai bhi bachane wala koi nahi hai
fizza mai barood oorh rahi hai jidhar bhi dekho
jahaan mai ab gul khilane wala koi nahi hai
kyaa hai sabit karbala nai yeh mumeeno ko
siva khuda ke jhukane wala koi nahi hai
tumhara hadi hai sirf quran,wohi hai rehbar
ke aur rasta dikhane wala koi nahi hai.

fuzool aap par qatle ilzaam hai bhai saheb,
jo mar chukaa hai wo dubara mar nahi sakta
bohri qoum to murda hai aik zamane se
mare huwe ko koi qatal kar nahi sakta.

sab dakoo ban gai hain Hatim Tai

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#49

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:41 pm

Stop Shia massacre, Muslims urge global community

Mumbai : Prominent Islamic scholars and intellectuals here Tuesday called upon the international community to help put an end to 'massacre' of the Shia Muslim community in Pakistan.

"This is extremely shameful and a matter of concern to the whole world. The United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and other global bodies must step in to end this senseless killings of Shias in Pakistan," renowned Islamic scholar Maulana Sayed Ahmedalo Abidi, the Imam of Jama Masjid in Mumbai, told media-persons.

He claimed that Shia Muslims in Pakistan are being physically attacked, shot or bombed at random and called upon the Pakistani government to protect from from the militant violence.

"Stop this Shia Muslim genocide in Pakistan ... The Pakistan government must acknowledge that the atrocities unleashed against the helpless community tantamount to a systemic genocide," Abidi said.

Alleging that the Takfiri Deobandi militants of ASWJ-LeJ and Sipah-E-Sahaba were responsible for the violence against Shia Muslims, Abidi said the Pakistan Army must be directly held accountable for the safety and well-being of the Shias in Quetta and other parts of Balochistan where they are in majority and are being targeted.

Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi, general secretary of the All India Shia Muslim Personal Law Board, said the Pakistan Human Rights Commission must now intervene to put an end to the violence against Shias.

"The legal ban on Sipah-e-Sahaba, which currently is allowed to operate freely under a new name ASWJ, must be fully implemented. Their leaders, Ahmed Ludhianvi, Malik Ishaq, Aurangzeb Farooqi and Qazi Nisar, must be arrested immediately," Rizvi demanded.

The duo pointed out that in recent years, Pakistan has been besieged by militant activities of the Pakistani Taliban and now radical Sunni Muslim militant groups have started targeting the Shias whom they do not regard as Muslims.

"Many of these sectarian attacks have taken place in southwest Balochistan province, which has a huge concentration of Shias in Pakistan. Many are Hazaras, an ethnic group which migrated from Afghanistan over a century ago," said Maulana Mahmood Daryabadi, general secretary of the All India Ulama Council.

The Islamic scholars also condemned last week's twin blasts in Hyderabad.

http://twocircles.net/2013feb26/stop_sh ... im+News%29

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#50

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:52 pm

bro gm,

all this outrage from the all india muslim council of ulamas notwithstanding, what is the statement from our syedna and his mansoos? so far over 3 dozen bohras have been shot, killed or kidnapped in pakistan. can you please report on their stance? have you by any chance missed the official press release from saifee mahal...??


ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#51

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:06 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:bro gm,



all this outrage from the all india muslim council of ulamas notwithstanding, what is the statement from our syedna and his mansoos? so far over 3 dozen bohras have been shot, killed or kidnapped in pakistan. can you please report on their stance? have you by any chance missed the official press release from saifee mahal...??
Bro Al Zulfiqar,

The Bohra leadership is extremely busy with things which are far more important then killings of a few bohras. Dont you know that the Dai's birthday celebrations, juloos in every city, Ziafats and collection of gold guineas are to be given more importance as per the pristine burhani taheri mufaddali bohras then killings of some unknown and obscure bohras. The killings are a few stray incidents which 90% of bohras are unaware of but the Dai's birthday is something which is extremely Islamic and which has to celebrated with utmost vigour and fanfare.

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#52

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:21 pm

We have to look at the bright side, one more year of suffering. Death would be the easy way out. But why, I say Ghanoo Jivo. Only with pain.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#53

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:19 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:bro gm,

all this outrage from the all india muslim council of ulamas notwithstanding, what is the statement from our syedna and his mansoos? so far over 3 dozen bohras have been shot, killed or kidnapped in pakistan. can you please report on their stance? have you by any chance missed the official press release from saifee mahal...??

Maybe be from Sunday after they have counted the gold and cleaned up the confetti , they will see if there is no immediate ziafat and have had rest from exhausting 40 days, may be they will get some time to think about the bohras in Pakistan , let us keep hope.

Az , Gm bhais Jeez stop piling issues , you know they will need to do another moajiza and this time for no income to clear the pending files. Have you got it that without raza don't spread the news about such events the , keep focusing abdes on the good things that are offered...tree planting, tiffin, 103rd birthday

And make sure Abdes are told not to go to the dushmano website...just tell them a logo to jhuti what karse.., pakistan ma koy taklif nathi maula ni dua che , agar na mane to Internet per bi raza upari low

Bohra spring
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#54

Unread post by Bohra spring » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Shias seem to be asking what is govt doing, and asking for intervention...but does anyone one know how Shias are happy to seek mediation and compromises .

The issue that Sunni extremists are claiming Shias are not Muslim and reason for being targeted , has any Shia addressed that issue, and found answers ?

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#55

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:02 pm

Leave the shias aside, first ask the question as what has the Mansoos done in order to prevent these ghastly incidents. Has he or his henchmen even sent a delegation to the Pakistani Prime Minister or raised a word of protest ?

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#56

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:00 pm

If a Shia, you are on your own

Let me make it simple: if you are a Shia in Pakistan, you are on your own. This fact I state for the benefit of all those citizens of this country, Shia and Sunni, who are grieving the slow demise of Mr Jinnah’s Pakistan and expecting that the tide could be reversed through state action.

Now for the longer answer.

There is no doubt about who is killing the Shia. The Lashkar-e Jhangvi (LeJ) has repeatedly taken responsibility for it. Its captured terrorists have often stated before courts that they have killed Shias and, given the opportunity, will do it again. The identity of the killers is a settled issue.

Nota Bene: The issue of the proxy war between Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states and Iran, the funding to Sunni extremist groups and whatever is left of Shia extremists, and circumstantial evidence of indirect involvement of hostile agencies is important but peripheral to the main issue, i.e., the terrorists are Pakistanis and killing on the basis of centuries-old denominational differences. The current murderous spree, of course, has a modern political and geopolitical context.

A more relevant question is: if the group that is involved in these killings has not only been ID-ed but IDs itself, what is stopping the state from acting against it, and effectively?

This is where the problem begins.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/512887/if-a ... -your-own/

Nietzsche
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:14 pm

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#57

Unread post by Nietzsche » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:52 pm

Nobody is safe in Pakistan. That place is a failed state, a lawless hell pit. Why do you think syedi Muffaddal bs left after the bombings? His money can't fix it, the USAs money can't fix it, nothing can fix it. I advise bohras there to find a way out. That's not a place to raise children.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#58

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:11 pm

Nietzsche wrote:Why do you think syedi Muffaddal bs left after the bombings?
he would have left after a few days, but decided to leave the very next day, as there was a qatar airways flight to sri lanka via qatar.

you know about his predilection for amte airhostesses ....

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#59

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:04 pm

One of the reasons behind Muslim extremism flourishing today is the unrestricted flow of petro-dollars into Muslim societies, which has resulted in the proliferation of prejudiced preachers and radical televangelists who populate the airwaves with their fanaticism. Such is the sway of these preachers that Muslims in large numbers are falling prey to
their manipulative agenda and have started to exhibit a supremacist attitude that looks down upon all those who are reluctant to get initiated into their kind of puritanism.

The only way out of this mess is to stimulate debates among Muslims on the interpretations of Islamic texts with the ultimate aim of countering religious chauvinism through appeal to reason and logic as done by the Prophet (PBUH) himself.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Are Bohras safe in Pakistan?

#60

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:46 pm

ghulam muhammed wrote:
The only way out of this mess is to stimulate debates among Muslims.....
and among those prominent muslims, of course, kaderbhai mansoos MUST be included.