Support from the community

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
S. Insaf
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Support from the community

#1

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:41 pm

Why since last 100 years the reformists have not been able to muster support from the community?
There are some important features of the Dawoodi Bohra community which are in way of their open defiance, which want to list down for discussion:
1) Sociologically speaking a petty business community is more tradition-bound and change resistant. Even today in 21st century at least in India no Bohra family has reached a top position in business or industry. The industrial entrepreneurial class is far more dynamic and progressive in its outlook than a class of businessmen. This fact is more evident from the various Burhani Expos organised recently. It also exposes the policy of Dai’s family of taking credit of the community’s achievements without a naya paisa support from them.
2) After the on set of World wars a slight shift took place in the economical condition of few Bohra families, but their social and religious outlook did not change with the same rate. Their conservatism had much deeper roots. That to some extent still exists.
3) Most of them who made easy money were illiterate and needed recognition by pouring money into Dai’s coffers. That was the beginning of enhancing Dai’s power whose predecessors in office had lived in debt. Unfortunately this change came at the time of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin who was ambitious of worldly comforts and power. He was aware that his grand father Sayedna Najmuddin had to face a serious situation as he was not unanimously accepted as Daiul-Mutlaq and had to manoeuvre the situation by luring rather than harassing his opponents as he was not strong enough materially.
4) During 51st Dai’s time the challenge was not on religious issues. It was secular in nature as the elites in the community were clamouring for modern western education. Thus he met the challenge of his opponents because of his strong material base by following a policy of persecution.
5) The shrewd and scheming Sayedna Taher Saifuddin devised various ingenious means of extracting his share in the increasing prosperity of the community and went on becoming more and more powerful to frustrate the efforts of his opponents. So much so that his power became monstrous as Morarji Desai had described. It became a vicious circle difficult to break.
6) Due to the political situation then Ismaili community was most organised around their Imams with absolute loyalty. Sayedna Taher Saifuddin by including Dai’s name in the Misaq Nama along with Imam had taken full advantage of this loyalty that made him a commanding leader rather than a mere religious guide.
7) With constant extraction of money from the community by way of religious taxes, tithes and personal offerings Dai’s family has become the most rich family in comparison to other Muslim communities and hence they can buy Muslims Ulemas and Muslim leadership. They do not want to support the reform movement directed to weaken Bohra high priest’s financial power.
8) The role of the government both at state and centre level is the same as their aim is to retain power.
9) Because of resistance to modern education and denial of democratic and individual rights to Bohras it has resulted in stunting the intellectual growth of Dawoodi Bohras in general. Quite a few Dawoodi Bohras are economically well off but there are hardly any writer, scientist, artist or litterateur of National or International repute. Most of the rich Bohras take pride in constructing expensive toilet of Dai than houses for the poor Bohras. Even from the filthy rich Sayedna’s family no one has earned any name.
10) The role of the ordained priest on occasions like Nikah and burial, concept of Raza, Ruqa Chitthi etc. are other stumbling blocks in the Bohra community.
11) Lastly the modern professionals like doctors, lawyers, architects and engineers depend on members of their community as clientele which they do not want to loose and remain confirm to the norms of the community.
Dai’s family feels that any liberalisation would result in eroding its authority. An increased regimentation would result in increased rebellion and would be more dangerous. Let us wait and see how the greedy arrogants of Dai’s family handle this delicate situation. I personally feel their days are numbered.

Danish
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Re: Support from the community

#2

Unread post by Danish » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:05 pm

I believe your points 6, 7 and 8 seems to be the crux of the matter as to why the current Dawood Bohra has become a twisted regime. We can witness what money and power can do but only the simple minded and the wise will take heed and the poor drags along for they are in the mercy of whoever gives them a helping hand. Sometimes there are families and friends who desperately need financial and/or materialistic help but out of shame and respect they do not beg and struggle out. This is when the wise vision the hidden and the most intelligent can't vision the obvious.

Danish
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Re: Support from the community

#3

Unread post by Danish » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:43 pm

By the way, with respect to the topic "Support from the Community", it would be advisable to list and elaborate what support is needed and how can the support be implemented in the most efficient and effective ways within the progressive's means to bring about a gradual change without mental and physical onslaught. Perhaps one can also list all the unecessary jargons that has permeated into the current Dawoodi Bohra regime with hostile and subversive intents and the things that can be introduced for the betterment of our advancing times keeping modern thought and technology in mind.

S. Insaf
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Re: Support from the community

#4

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:22 am

Brother Danish,
Good post. Normally Bohras do not come out in open defiance unless they are hurt by some incident beyond their resistant power.
People like me and Asghar Ali are reformist by conviction not by compulsion. My late father often used to ask me "Upno soo bagadiyoo che ke too mukhalifat par utri aaviyo che?" (What wrong they have done with us that you are bent upoun opposing them?). He was so afraid like other Bohra that he never use name them.
When after the long association with Kothar and Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb I decided to break out I had to face a great deal both physically, mentally and professionally. When in 1965 I joined Godrej and Boyce co. and when I was still in probation period a big bunch of papers were sent to my management including my police records by being in police custody protesting at various function of Sayedna to impress my management that I was a Street Agitator and hence would be dangerous for them. Fortunately my directors themselves were reformists in their Parsee community. My managing director called me in his cabin and said while handing over those papers, "Tell Insaf, what is a street agitator? Are in your Sayedna's family, my neighbour at Malabar Hill do people protest by holding flags in their hand and parading in side their Mahal going from one room to other?"
So brother according to me NO gradual change is possible without mental and physical onslaught.
Just stop giving them any money and stop acting as per their dictates and be ready for all sort of mental and physical assaults. So we drive our inspiration from heroes like Imam Husain and Gandhi and continue our struggle.
For your information, initially there were planned physical attacks on me (attacks on Asghar Ali is still continues as he is the biggest damager of exploitative system of Kothar exposing them continuously on international platform) and I had no support from my large family except by elder brother Dr.Haider Ali Insaf.

But wait. Now off course the situation is different. It is Kothar who wants to compromise with dissidents at any cost as long as keep on receiving money from them. One good example is of Mr. Zainuddin Vali of Godhra. He went in Salam on his own conditions, like he would keep contacts with his reformist friends, whenever in Godhara even person like Asghar ali and Insaf would stay with him in his own house, he will have the right to openly criticise wrong doings of Kothar and he will not grow beard and wear Bohra dress and his wife and other women of house will not wear Rida. He was taken in misaq, though he keeps on writing openly in Bombay Samachar and Bohra Chronicle against Kothar. He shares the same platform in public meetings with Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer. The Kothar is happy to see that a wealthy person like Vali is with them. That’s all.

Danish
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Re: Support from the community

#5

Unread post by Danish » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:40 pm

Originally posted by S. Insaf:
Normally Bohras do not come out in open defiance unless they are hurt by some incident beyond their resistant power.
Very true, bhai Insaf, but most often this defiance is overshawdowed by helplessness and becomes a "test" in patience which I'm not sure what that means. In other words, they take Allah's name in vain that all will be fine but at the same time continue to live in disguise, fear and misery. What kind of a "test" is that? With today's advancements, techonologies and abuundance of avenues available for anyone to live a righteous and meaningful life in their own justified paths is just a matter of courage and reason to think for themselves. Is it necessary to live under stringent dictatorship just because from the outside it looks all nice and dandy but from the inside it is a cancerous virus. Perhaps the mainstream and orthodox Bohras should take a CatScan or an MRI of their lives and religious beliefs within this cult and open up to a reality check and logical medications.
People like me and Asghar Ali are reformist by conviction not by compulsion.
I've read a lot of articles by Asghar, yourself and a few other reformists. I admire the courage to expose the wrongdoings commited by the current regime and to bring about a Just system within the framework in which it was built. Though I'm a non-religionist and open-minded humanist, I nevertheless support the reformist's cause to inititate justice on humanitarian grounds, be it of religious nature. That's just a start. They are no doubt an eye opener for those who will take heed without biased and untoward commotions.
My late father often used to ask me "Upno soo bagadiyoo che ke too mukhalifat par utri aaviyo che?" (What wrong they have done with us that you are bent upoun opposing them?). He was so afraid like other Bohra that he never use name them.
Fortunately, my father and family members were quite the opposite, in that, he was never actually afraid but he was very wealthy and renowned in both business and social sectors. He did several Ziafats and lend both financial and business support to not only the Kothars and the bohra community but also the non-Bohras and the poor. The Kothars would bend-over-backwords to acquise in disguise; all because of M.O.N.E.Y. and F.A.M.E. After the death of my father, even today, the descendants are still well known, in their own convoluted reasons. Personally, I not only surrendered to my father's wealth and fame, but seperated out to live an individual and independant life of my own through ups and downs of reality and struggle to achieve success to where I am today.

Danish
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Re: Support from the community

#6

Unread post by Danish » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:54 pm

O, by the way, I've personally spoken to Asghar's brother Zulfiqar in Los Angeles, CA, few years ago in relations to music, as he is known to be a keyboard player, as I am in the inermediate level myself.

humble_servant_us
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Re: Support from the community

#7

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:36 am

Br. Insaf
What do you think on average how many bohras think that the Dai is corrupt. Probably less than a 1%. Though the percentage of Bohras believing that the system is corrupt could be as high as 80%.

The point is that with time people's faith in Dai had increased and the monetry corruption in society has no longer remained an issue.

What i understand is the reformist group's fight against Kothar started on basis of monetry corruption, so this no longer being an issue the community's support to reformist no longer stands.

The only factor which can make Bohras turn against the Dai and its regime is when they start understanding the basics of religion correctly. What is important is religious awareness among Bohras to understand right and wrong. However the Kothar has already anticipated this and have started sabaks and lesson everywhere which is under their control and only those things are imparted which is useful to them, increasing their faith more in Dai.

To add the kothar has always portrayed the reformist movement to be a huge failure, so anyone who wants to support the reformist group has to take a step back.

Honestly other than udaipur which place do you think has a strong reformist support?

S. Insaf
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Re: Support from the community

#8

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:35 pm

Brother, humble_servant_us

1) Your first question: On an average how many Bohras think that the Dai is corrupt? Although the percentage of Bohras believing that the system is corrupt could be 80%.

It is a welcome change if 80% think the system is corrupt. One day they will start thinking “Who is heading the system? I know that Bohras many times whisper ‘Maula to Masoom che, Aa uparwala badmasi kare che”. (Dai is innocent, his mangers are corrupt.) This impression comes from the fact that Bohras are not allowed to interact with Dai directly. No Bohra can approach Dai without the permission of the middle-men. In Udaipur sudden change of hear came because Dai’s most faithful Bohra women addressing him as “Khamma Maula” were dishonoured and murderously assaulted in front of Dai.

Your second question: People's faith in Dai has increased. The monetary corruption is no longer an issue.

The reformists though insist on accountability but that is no longer the basic issue. The basic issue is human, democratic and individual rights. Both commissions’ reports are based on these rights.

Your third point: The reformists’ fight started on basis of monetary corruption.

In the beginning in 1910 the fight started with reformist efforts for western education. Then in 1934 when Musalman Waqf Act was imposed and Dai tried to get exemption from it the fight was on monetary corruption. Now the focus is on human and democratic rights of Bohras

Your forth point: The Bohras can turn against Dai and his through proper understanding of basics of religion.

This can work only on unconditioned minds. Here whatever is said in the name of Dai is religion. He goes to the extent of calling Qura’n as dead book and he being a “Qura’n-e-Natiq” (speaking Qura’n).
As far as religion is concerned we already have seen totally diverse arguments on this board on issues like religion, prophets, religious practices etc. So what religion and from which source book?

Your fifth point: Kothar has always portrayed the reformist movement a big failure.
It is true. And what else they can do when they have failed in crushing the movement by persecution or by luring.

Your final question: Which other place than Udaipur has strong reformist support?

As stated earlier the mass- revolt in Udaipur was possible as Bohra women’s faith in Dai was terribly shaken. It has sustained due to strong support of Bohra women. One more reason is that the community’s properties have solidly remained in reformists’ hands.

The various court cases challenging Dai’s powers and practices, propaganda of Dai’s un-Islamic practices among Muslims, print-media’s exposure of Dai in Bold headings as “Imam of Smuggling”, “A Law unto Himself”, “Holy Terror”, “Dehshatwadi Dharm Guru” etc, expulsion of Dai from Tanzania, nothing was as shocking and as damaging as appointment of Justice Nathwani Commission and holding of World Conference. Their impact can be understood by the might that Dai used to frustrate them. The Dai’s establishment used all the power at its command. That itself shows how damaging the commission and World Conferences are for them. The Commission’s report has for first time brought the reality of Dai and his establishment in black and white and World Conferences are going on providing a strong platform for all the well-wishers of Human and democratic rights from every section of the society, country and world.

like_minded
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Re: Support from the community

#9

Unread post by like_minded » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:55 am

Honestly other than udaipur which place do you think has a strong reformist support?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fully agree with Bro Humble servant.

Down south, fanaticism is at its peak! Bohras living in cities like Chennai, Coimbatore, Hyderabad, Bangalore and Kolkata are not aware of reform movement or maybe they are least bothered to bring about the change.

For instance, the aamil of Bangalore, Shk.Zohair, has amassed huge amount of wealth, he is ever expanding his portfolio, buying real estate in every corner of the city. Who is there to question his source of income??

humble_servant_us
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Re: Support from the community

#10

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:30 am

Br. Insaf,
The innocent Bohra doesn't know about his human, democratic and individual rights so its far for him to understand that there is a violation.

Only religion can help them to understand this and had reformist focussed their movement on religious issues from Bohra books it could have helped .. The idea of reformist shouldn't have been to make the community reformist but to make them understand true Bohra religion so that they could be open minded humans. This could have been the first step but for generations to come it would have helped...

Bohra literature is difficult to get so most bohras follow what they are taught. Had reformist made Bohra sources freely available it would have silently helped them. One classical example was there is a book on namaz with english meanings published in london..I distributed it to many of my friends and they really liked it..Initially i had to hide that this was published by reformist group becoz they wouldn't have accepted it but later on when i declared it was from reformist they did not care becoz they understood the goodness of the book and appreciated it. Once a person starts reading and understanding quran, its the book's miracle itself which will help.

You are right it is the women who play a pivotal role in protecting religion and success of udaipur is an example.

Situtaion now is not the same as what it was when reformist movement started. Dai and Kothar are having a very tight control over people's mind that under such situation it is very difficult for reformist group to get support from the community.

Dai and Kothar have become too powerful and I personally feel only revival of true religious values in community can overthrow them, which presently looks very difficult.

abde sayedna
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Re: Support from the community

#11

Unread post by abde sayedna » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:42 am

Mr insaf i fu all would have been right then allah the mercifull would have helped u in ur cause but the situation over here is reverse, allah has make u all beggars openly begging on website in name of donation.

abde sayedna
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Re: Support from the community

#12

Unread post by abde sayedna » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:42 am

Mr insaf i fu all would have been right then allah the mercifull would have helped u in ur cause but the situation over here is reverse, allah has make u all beggars openly begging on website in name of donation.

Humsafar
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Re: Support from the community

#13

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:21 pm

Asking for donation is more honorable than looting the community mafia style under pain of baraat, humiliation and threats. Besides, Allah's ways are mysterious. He has helped the reform movement survive for so long against greatest of odds. He also helped reformists to debar Sayedna from entering Udaipur for 25 years. Now you decide, who's side Allah is on.

Humsafar
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Re: Support from the community

#14

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:38 pm

I could say that the Sayedna is the biggest beggar but I cannot bring myself to do so out of respect for the office he holds.

S. Insaf
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Re: Support from the community

#15

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:01 pm

Brother abde sayedna,
Your arguments reminded me of a meeting with late advocate Qumruddin of Khandwa my home town some 35 years ago. He said "Saifuddin you are bachcha. I know the wrongdoings of Sayedna more than you know. But I as an advocate and a person well aware of laws can tell you, legally no action can be taken against Sayedna and his co. I will give you a story to make you understand.
Suppose you see that a Madari (juggler) makes a small boy sleep on the ground. Cover him with cloth-sheet. Then you see that he pieces a knife through his neck under the cloth. Blood oozes out and boy cries in pain.
After creating this scene the Madari ask every body standing there to give him money of Bhagwan and Allah. After he collects money, every body sees him going from there holding the hand of that small boy. The boy is now smiling and dancing. Every one knows that Madari has been fooling people by creating an emotional scene. But no law can stop him. I know that. That is exactly what Sayedna is doing.

I said that's fine. But suppose your Madari start saying "look at that topiwala, that dhotiwala! He has not given me any money, beat him up, do not marry his daughter or do not invite him to any function, throw him out from your mosque or temple.
Will your law step in or not?
That is what exactly Sayedna doing.
Do what you want do. Let people decide. But if force any one to do as want him to do then you are committing a crime. La iqrahe fiddin. Both religiously and legally.

Humsafar
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Re: Support from the community

#16

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:26 pm

humble servant,

It is very easy from hindsight to say that reformists could have done this and done that. You must understand that the current or modern phase of reforms started by chance, by way of response to concrete situations that took place in Udaipur. And as time went on the reform movement took on a character and life of its own. Right from the beginning reformists have been attempting to provide religious education to the community. And at the other end of the spectrum, Asghar Ali Engineer has done a remarkable job in making Islmaili and Fatimid history accessible to common bohras.

All this literature is in the public domain and is available to anyone who wants to have them. If you're suggesting that reformists should have provided all this to the rest of community then, though it seems a good idea it requires enormous resources which reformists never have. We're always struggling to fight court cases with the Kothar and are always out with a begging bowl for funds.

In an indirect way it seems you are blaming reformists for the state in which Bohras are. The onus of educating the "innocent bohras" is not on reformists, it is the responsibility of each and every bohra themselves. Religious education and values may help them awaken their sense of humanity but unless they begin to let go of their "comfort zone" and begin to act nothing much is going to change.

S. Insaf
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Support from the community

#17

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:25 pm

Brother humsafar and other friends,

Impact of courage of one person or one family remains for centuries. One couplet from my Gazal:
Koofe ke bazaar mein mere khoon ki kimat,
Hashr talak har dour-e-sitam bardasht kare ga.

(The price of my blood, in the Bazar of Koofa,
will have be born by every tyrant regime.)

In the beginning of 20th century (about 95 years back in Udaipur one Rajab ali Paliwala and his family fought about Jamat’s accounts and made Kurarwala family (Sayedna’s party) submit accounts and publicly apologised for misappropriation of Jamat’s fund. When “salam band” was declared against Paliwala and his supporters one Shaikh Tayyeabali independently solemnised several Nikahs. Again in 1917 with filing of Chandabhoy Galla Case it was again Paliwala family which came out in active support. The violent between Paliwalas and Sayedna’s party Paliwala left Hathipole area. In 1924 on instructions of late Sayedna local Amil tried to stop the burial of Shaikh Rajab Ali Paliwala died Maharaja of Udaipur sent his army and burial was possible, again the dissidents became active and formed a society called Anjuman-e-Rifahul Mumineen”. So the upsurge in 1970 was not by chance. There were many Bohras who hid there sympathies with reform movement till 1970. Silent socio-economic revolution and higher education especially among Bohra women further added fuel and resulted in mass revolt.

You are right many reformists from Udaipur are well-versed in Islamic and Ismaili Talimat. Long back they have established “School of Dini Talim” and imparting religious education to children, men and women.

Sayedna’s establishment has most successfully closed all doors and voice of reformist does not reach to the community. With advancement in technology both print and electronic media is advancing. This board is one example. As revolutionary mulla in Iran, Ali Shariati did Bohra reformists also should prepare CDs and DVDs of lectures on Islam and Bohra faith and spread them in the community, which Bohras can see and understand in closed doors. Again it needs resources which reformists are lacking right now. I have written various one-act plays in Urdu which can also be acted and filmed. One play I based on the Marsiyah of Mir Anees, where on band (para) from is recited and one scene from reformists struggle is enacted. And it goes on showing the parallel atrocities and struggle against tyranny.
Please keep on discussing other ways to "Reach out" to the community at large. Thanks

(As dictated by Mr. Insaf – Komal Upadhyay)

S. Insaf
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Re: Support from the community

#18

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:28 pm

(The price of my blood, in the Bazar of Koofa,
will have be born by every tyrant regime.)

hould be read as:

(The price of my blood, in the Bazar of Koofa,
will have be born by every tyrant regime till the day of judgement.)

My typing error - Komal

Humsafar
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Re: Support from the community

#19

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:08 pm

Insaf bhai,

Thanks for clarification. I agree with you that reformist undercurrents have always been there in Udaipur and I definitely do not want to give the impression that the Udaipur revolt started just by chance. What I meant by "by chance" is that the events were triggered by chance and were not planned. And of course without the education and history of dissent the revolt would not have turned out the way it did.

Aftab
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Re: Support from the community

#20

Unread post by Aftab » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:51 pm

Humsafar said:

I could say that the sayedna is the biggest beggar but I cannot bring myself to do so out of respect for the office he holds.

Let us separate the office which is pristine with the office bearer. Through out history, wrong people have taken the office by force. Case in point is Mavia and Yazeed. Therefore you derive your own conclusions.

abde sayedna
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Re: Support from the community

#21

Unread post by abde sayedna » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:34 am

beggar is the one who ask for donation n sayedna saheb is not the one instead he is the one who have made so many dawoodi bohra the the richest with dua mukarak n thats the reson every mumin arazz wajebat on his own because he belives it is his duties n not zabarjasti as u all think

abde sayedna
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Re: Support from the community

#22

Unread post by abde sayedna » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:32 am

dear aftab i would like to clarify thah when ever a wrong person has taken the religious seat, like yazid n his father there office have closed later or sooner, but the office of imam n duat, the true one is still there altough many like u tried to harm it with no effect. so now compare who his the present day yazid

abde sayedna
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Re: Support from the community

#23

Unread post by abde sayedna » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:39 am

All this literature is in the public domain and is available to anyone who wants to have them. If you're suggesting that reformists should have provided all this to the rest of community then, though it seems a good idea it requires enormous resources which reformists never have. We're always struggling to fight court cases with the Kothar and are always out with a begging bowl for funds

dear insaf the truth is spoken by ur friend mr humsafar

Humsafar
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Re: Support from the community

#24

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:31 pm

abde, you are not capable of rational thought so I wouldn't waste my time with you. As for "begging bowl", I mentioned it purposely as a mock-serious reference to your earlier accusation. And if it has not dawned on you yet, we have no shame in "begging" for money, it is for a good cause and not for personal pleasure and maintaining a royal lifestyle.

Aftab, it was a tongue-in-cheek statement. I said what I wanted to say even while wanting not to say it ;) .

Aftab
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Re: Support from the community

#25

Unread post by Aftab » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:32 pm

I fully understood where you were coming from Humsafar. I just added my two cents.

abde sayedna - Length of tenure of office is not an indication of righteousness. We had had Dais who made great contributions to humanity, it is probably in the last 50 years or so that things have got rotten, the wrong people has assumed office by force and therefore the outrage from the community and the reformists.

Every dog has his day and I want to think of the unthinkable. Scores of Bohris will drop the Dai and join the ranks of reformist. And Allah has said in Sura 94 Al-Inshirah

Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

A-lam nashra laka sadrak. Wa wadhaanaa aanka wizrak, al lazee anqada zahhrak. Wa rafaanaa laka zikrak. Fa inna maal usre yusraa. Inna maal usre yusraa. Fa izaa faraghta fansib. wa ilaa Rabbeka farghab.

In the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful.

Have We not caused your bosom to expand (with knowledge and wisdom) and eased you of your burden which weighed down your back? Did we not exalt you in your fame? Lo with hardship comes ease. So when you are relieved keep toiling and strive to please your lord.

The key word is knowledge and wisdom. Does the average Bohri have knowledge and are thinkers - and how many among them are readers. That was the first ayah revealed to our prophet (WAS) -READ In the name of thy Lord!!!

If you read the foot note 6191 of Abdulla Yusufali and I quote:

The solution or relief does not merely come AFTER the difficulty: it is provided with the difficulty.

This is god's words and we have strong belief that it will come to being.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Support from the community

#26

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:13 pm

O My God Aftab. You mentioned Yusuf Ali. Now the three horned God is going to come after you with his only follower sitting on the middle horn. Hide quickly!! ;)

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Support from the community

#27

Unread post by Danish » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:30 pm

Originally posted by Aftab:
Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

A-lam nashra laka sadrak. Wa wadhaanaa aanka wizrak, al lazee anqada zahhrak. Wa rafaanaa laka zikrak. Fa inna maal usre yusraa. Inna maal usre yusraa. Fa izaa faraghta fansib. wa ilaa Rabbeka farghab.

In the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful.

Have We not caused your bosom to expand (with knowledge and wisdom) and eased you of your burden which weighed down your back? Did we not exalt you in your fame? Lo with hardship comes ease. So when you are relieved keep toiling and strive to please your lord.
It is overwhelmingly bewildering, extremely embarrasing and intellectually demeaning when Muslims utter the above words (along with several other Quranic surahs and cherry-picked words) back to Allah in their prayers mindlessly. :roll:

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Support from the community

#28

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:33 pm

Danish,

What is the concept of God according to you?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Support from the community

#29

Unread post by Danish » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:19 pm

Aareef, I don't believe in frivolous and wishy-washy concepts and extraordinary supernatural musings and conjectural materials.

To understand "God" and its concepts, one must first study, understand and acknowledge its universal historical settings and how religions and religious belief systems germinated and then gradually manipulated and culminated into current vast segregated belief systems throughout the world over time, obviously each claiming their rights, rites and rules over others. I briefly touched upon this subject earlier whilst giving links and information of study.

People can certainly live a respectable, peaceful and meaningful life without bringing a fathomless deity into the picture and the jargons that are glued with it and without subjecting, enforcing and torturing people into senseless beliefs throbbed upon them by unscrupulous thugs of our times.

Throughout history, this god business has claimed infinite lives of both humans and animals like an epidemic disease that seems to have no cure. It has turned people into slaves of their own kinds who became their lords and revolt against each other all in the name of their alleged god(s) in vain. The bitter truth is that religionists are the most intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, brainless and barbaric individuals of our creation and sadly enough there is no law stopping them.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Support from the community

#30

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:26 pm

Danish,

Are you blaming god or the followers? Please clarify...